Great Western Coffee Shop

All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom => Topic started by: Chris from Nailsea on September 09, 2014, 11:42:06



Title: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 09, 2014, 11:42:06
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-29122416):

Quote
Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77468000/jpg/_77468038_leeds_escalators.jpg)
The woman fell on one of the escalators, which run alongside the steps between platforms at Leeds station

A train operator is investigating a claim that its staff at Leeds railway station refused to help a woman who fell on an escalator because they were not "people handling-trained".

The incident was witnessed by commuter Tom Lees who described the worker's response as "shameful behaviour".

Mr Lees contacted the BBC after being given the explanation by station staff.

Northern Rail has apologised for the incident and said it was investigating the claim.

Mr Lees said the woman fell backwards after she lost her footing while travelling up an escalator connecting the platforms. He said: "Some passengers nearby quickly grabbed to help her and shouted to the staff who were stood down the bottom of the escalator about 20 yards away and they sort of refused to help. I went and spoke to them to ask them why they wouldn't help. They said they weren't allowed to get involved because they weren't 'people handling-trained'."

In a statement, a spokeswoman for Northern Rail said: "We report any accident directly to Network Rail so a qualified first aider can be alerted. We will be carrying out a full investigation and rebriefing our staff on customer support on the frontline."

The woman who fell on the escalator is not believed to have been injured.


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: ChrisB on September 09, 2014, 12:12:26
Regardless of training, I would hope any staff could at least push the escalator emergency-stop button....


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 09, 2014, 13:35:06
Just as long as they are escalator handling-trained...


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: ChrisB on September 09, 2014, 13:37:31
Everyone knows how to push that button!


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: phile on September 09, 2014, 17:58:42
"People Handling trained".   Where was this silly phrase dug up from as are many others from people who invent their own Health and Safety Rules.


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: ChrisB on September 09, 2014, 18:17:18
Try the unions....


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: ellendune on September 09, 2014, 19:35:43
"People Handling trained".   Where was this silly phrase dug up from as are many others from people who invent their own Health and Safety Rules.

Many nurses have severe back problems from handling people.  Adults are after all heavier than the 23 kg that one person is supposed to be able to carry safely. They are therefore regularly training in proper handling techniques.  So it is an issue. 

However, they should have been able to offer other support until someone properly trained arrived.


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: ChrisB on September 09, 2014, 20:17:52
Who said the woman needed lifting single-handed, as a deadweight? Very rare forvthat need


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: ellendune on September 09, 2014, 20:20:41
Who said the woman needed lifting single-handed, as a deadweight? Very rare forvthat need

I did not mean that but it is still an issue.


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: ChrisB on September 09, 2014, 20:23:57
More likely "not my job, Guv!"


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: JayMac on September 09, 2014, 21:51:38
Aren't we being just a little too critical of the staff here based on one alleged quote from said staff?

Possibly clumsily worded, but having worked on a station I was told what I could and couldn't do with regard to being insured. Now, I would most likely help in this situation, but I can fully understand an employee not covered or trained to do refusing. It must be remembered that even First Aiders are not exempt from negligence claims. As soon as someone volunteers to assist they owe the person they are assisting a 'duty of care'. We don't know whether the staff involved were covered by any indemnity insurance provided by their employer. If they aren't, then, again, I can understand a lack of willingness to assist.

Attempt to pick someone up and then drop them causing further injury? That could lead to a claim.

What role the unions have in this is also unknown so it's unfair to lay blame at their door. We don't even know if the staff members involved are union members.


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: SDS on September 09, 2014, 23:30:50
I wonder if that passenger was drunk or messing around on the escalator. It all seems one-sided at the moment.

Anyhow its a Notwork Fail station, so their staff should at a minimum be keeping an eye out.

I would not have picked up the person, I would have pressed the big red button and kept the escalator clear and told the person to keep still till properly trained (and insured) assistance arrived.


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: JayMac on September 09, 2014, 23:39:40
I wonder if that passenger was drunk or messing around on the escalator. It all seems one-sided at the moment.

Anyhow its a Notwork Fail station, so their staff should at a minimum be keeping an eye out.

I would not have picked up the person, I would have pressed the big red button and kept the escalator clear and told the person to keep still till properly trained (and insured) assistance arrived.

As with my post about being unduly critical of the staff with such limited information, the same applies with regard to speculation about the person who fell.

Also, it may well be a Network Rail* managed station but we do have a clue as to the nearby staff. Northern Rail have apologised. Network Rail staff may well not have been nearby to 'keep an eye out'.


*Notwork Fail. Any excuse to have a dig, eh?  ::)


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: ChrisB on September 10, 2014, 08:17:41
It was clarified not long ago tgat if 1st aiders give treatment as proscribed in their training, they would not be liable for any claim against them


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: JayMac on September 10, 2014, 09:15:24
Clarified by whom? Primary legislation?

And 'proscribed'? vb. Past tense. Forbade, denounced, condemned.

The UK does not have a 'Good Samaritan' law.  Whilst it's unlikely that a first aider would be prosecuted if they further injured someone they had gone to assist, negligent action on their part could still be deemed illegal. Or if not criminally negligent then the negligent action could give rise to a civil claim.

Only 'could'. There are, as far using the internet to research, no cases I can find where a first aider has been prosecuted for a criminal offence. That's not to say there haven't been civil claims settled (or equally, withdrawn) before court. 

I'm unaware of any UK legislation that specifically protects anyone giving first aid from prosecution or civil claim. Be they trained or not.

Unlikely, is the best word to describe the potential for a criminal prosecution or civil claim. But never say never.


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: grahame on September 10, 2014, 10:02:52
On another tack, a very interesting story in that it's a report by a bystander (a commuter named in the article) to the BBC.  I'm not clear if it came to Network Rail or Northern Rail's attention at all until, perhaps, the BBC asked for a comment.  All seems flimsy; not sure if anyone even knows who the woman was - it's not inconceivable that she felt it so minor she just carried on; perhaps it just looked bad from certain angles?   I'm reading a bit of a potential non-story here.  Perhaps nothing of interest was happening in Leeds that day?


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: ChrisB on September 10, 2014, 10:09:00
Whilst it's unlikely that a first aider would be prosecuted if they further injured someone they had gone to assist, negligent action on their part could still be deemed illegal. Or if not criminally negligent then the negligent action could give rise to a civil claim.

You talk negligence. Even if trained, negligence is always prosecutable - what if track workers, fully trained were negligent & left bolts off a set of points (Hatfield, was it?).....


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: TaplowGreen on September 10, 2014, 11:36:12
........notwithstanding debates about Primary legislation, legality, elf n safety, insurance, "people handling training" arguing over NR/TOC responsibility etc there is such a thing as compassion for a fellow human being who is injured or distressed, which I would hope would trump all of the above..........

.....I have a vision of a crowd of people in high vis jackets and hats all standing around the "fallen woman" (so to speak!), arguing, scratching their chins and trying to decide who should do something whilst she sits/lies there in pain..........Monty Python used to do sketches about this sort of thing!

I'd like to think that if it was me I would act first to help the person and worry about the implications (if any) later?


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: grahame on September 10, 2014, 11:38:44
Further Press coverage - Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2750000/Rail-staff-wouldn-t-help-elderly-woman-fell-escalator-Leeds-station-hadn-t-trained-people-handling.html

Quote
Tom Lees, 25, said he was waiting for a train at around 10.30am when he spotted an ^old lady fall backwards^ while travelling up an escalator.

He said one passenger ^grabbed her^ and another stopped the escalator by pressing an emergency button. ^A third called the Northern Rail staff to help but they just stood there like lemons,^ he said.
 
Mr Lees, a scientist working in the road industry, added: ^I dashed up the escalator ^ she was in a very precarious position. Afterwards I asked [the staff] why they didn^t help and they said they weren^t allowed to because they weren^t ^people-handling trained^.

^I said it was shameful behaviour.^ Northern Rail runs passenger trains across the north of England and is the largest train operator in the UK. This week it introduced peak evening fares ^ meaning some weekday tickets will cost 117 per cent more.

[article continues]


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: ChrisB on September 10, 2014, 11:50:01
more pertinantly, it goes on....

Quote
But John Rowe, head of operations for the Health and Safety Executive in Yorkshire and the Humber, said it was a ^ridiculous^ situation, adding: ^There nothing in the Health and Safety at Work Act that prevents people offering assistance to others in distress.

^I can only think that either the company^s own policies are being stretched and misinterpreted by their employees, or the individuals in question didn^t fancy getting involved and they just used health and safety as a convenient excuse.^


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: phile on September 10, 2014, 16:12:05
People making up their own Health and Safety Rules again !!!


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: bobm on September 10, 2014, 17:20:24
There are two sets of rules used as a smoke screen by those wishing to avoid doing something in my experience.  One is Health & Safety, the other is the Data Protection Act.


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: stuving on September 10, 2014, 20:04:45
There are countries in which this could be a matter for the criminal law, notably France and Germany. In France the offence is usually called "non-assistance to a person in danger". I think it comes about if you sit down to write a complete penal code, instead of relying on common law and individual statutes.

In the French case I can show you the text of the code p^nale, in the official translation:

Quote
ARTICLE 223-6
(Ordinance No. 2000-916 of 19 September 2000 Article 3 Official Journal of 22 September into force 1 January 2002)
 Anyone who, being able to prevent by immediate action a felony or a misdemeanour against the bodily integrity of a
person, without risk to himself or to third parties, wilfully abstains from doing so, is punished by five years' imprisonment
and a fine of ^75,000.
 The same penalties apply to anyone who wilfully fails to offer assistance to a person in danger which he could
himself provide without risk to himself or to third parties, or by initiating rescue operations.

There is a related "good Samaritan" exemption to prosecution for illegal acts performed in such cases "for the greater good":
Quote
[/b]ARTICLE 122-7
 A person is not criminally liable if confronted with a present or imminent danger to himself, another person or
property, he performs an act necessary to ensure the safety of the person or property, except where the means used
are disproportionate to the seriousness of the threat

PS: I note that the relevant sentence does not make sense. I would re-translate it as:
Quote
The same penalties apply to anyone who wilfully fails to offer assistance to a person in danger, which he could
provide without risk to himself or to third parties, either by his own actions or by initiating rescue operations.

So far as I can find out, the offence is rarely prosecuted, but is kept in reserve for particularly blatant cases. It should perhaps be seen a more of an official indication of how people ought to behave.

Now I wonder, who thinks we should have a similar provision?


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: TaplowGreen on September 11, 2014, 15:15:46
It's pretty sad when a country has to legislate to cover what should be normal human nature to help another person in distress..............but I guess that's the society we've created for ourselves?


Title: Re: Leeds railway station staff 'fail to help' fall woman
Post by: phile on September 11, 2014, 18:21:19
Principally created by the Jobsworths.



This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net