Title: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 24, 2014, 20:48:45 From the Reading Chronicle (http://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/roundup/articles/2014/08/24/103078-commuters-furious-over-rail-fare-increase/):
Quote Commuters furious over rail fare increase Rail commuters from Reading were furious to hear that rail fares are to rise 3.5 per cent ^ in the wake of a survey that rates First Great Western near the bottom of the list for customer satisfaction. (http://cdn1.clydeandforthpress.co.uk/img/2014/08/22/station1408724421847522810.jpg) Train companies can raise the price of regulated fares such as season tickets by one percentage point above the inflation level for July each year which was revealed on Tuesday as 2.5 per cent. The cost of an annual standard class season ticket from Reading to London will go up ^143, to a total of ^4,231. An annual Travelcard including London underground zones 1 to 6 will rise ^170 from ^4,856 to ^5,026. Sian Davies, 26, from Tilehurst, who commutes to London to work, said: ^I stand nearly every day and always on the way into London. There simply aren^t enough carriages. It^s ridiculous, and now to top it off they^ve increased fares again too. You can^t increase fares without improving the service. It makes me angry but I really have no choice but to pay it. There^s nothing worse than finishing work after a stressful day and then fighting through so many other commuters just to get home.^ And commuter Charlotte Blackman, 24, from Reading, said: ^Every time I leave for work I feel a sense of dread. Trains are delayed and cancelled and they are horrifically overcrowded to the point where you can^t get on. It has got to the point where I am incredibly angry. I spend a third of my wages on something I have no choice but to pay for and in no way do they offer the advertised service.^ Most season ticket prices are regulated by the Government but train operators can raise fares by two per cent above inflation as long as the overall average stays at RPI plus one per cent, so some fares could increase by 4.5 per cent. Annual season tickets from Slough to London will rise from ^2,416 to ^2,501 while a Travelcard will soar by ^111 from ^3,176 to ^3.287. Seasons tickets from Maidenhead to London are to rise by ^99 whilst Travelcards will go up ^126 from ^3,604 to ^3,730. The rise comes on top of a 3.2 per cent increase in fares in January and just after consumer rights watchdog Which? blasted First Great Western for scoring less than 50 per cent for customer satisfaction in its annual train survey. The Which? survey asked more than 7,400 regular train passengers to share their opinions and experiences of travelling with the country^s 19 major train operating companies including First Great Western. It found that 11 out of the 19 train companies failed to score more than 50 per cent in the questionnaire, with First Great Western coming in at 15th place with an average customer satisfaction score of 45 per cent. Anthony Smith, chief executive of rail watchdog Passenger Focus, said: ^Some operators will have to work hard to recover passenger confidence after difficult periods. Getting trains on time is the key factor underpinning passenger satisfaction, while how delays are dealt with is the key factor behind scores for passengers^ dissatisfaction. Better communication during weather-related disruptions may have ensured passengers^ satisfaction in dealing with delays.^ Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: ChrisB on August 24, 2014, 20:53:26 Error in the flex details....2% anove the RPI+1%=5.5% max
Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: ellendune on August 24, 2014, 21:03:18 I sympathise with these people but only to an extent, given:
a) the amount of discount they get from the anytime fare that they would have to pay if they were otherwise to travel on the trains they use; b) the amount even anytime Reading passengers have to pay per mile compared to long distance travellers. Whole system is broke and no one is ready to fix it! Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: John R on August 24, 2014, 22:34:31 No mention of the fact that an increase of standard class seat provision of around 18% on HSS is in the process of being implemented then? (And indeed is already in place on many services.)
Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: NickB on August 24, 2014, 23:32:14 No mention of the fact that an increase of standard class seat provision of around 18% on HSS is in the process of being implemented then? (And indeed is already in place on many services.) Which simply means that First Class passengers who paid even more, but critically can and will claim refunds for standing, will have less room and have to stand. No one wins. It is not something to advertise or be happy about. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: JayMac on August 25, 2014, 01:42:33 I wonder if FGW have factored in any costs in providing compensation to 1st Class ticket holders who can't get a seat?
Difficult, as they'll not know exactly how many people are likely to be affected. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: a-driver on August 25, 2014, 02:59:56 Commuters will always complain even if the service was free!!
Anyone who believes that a government wouldn't have increased fares or even cut fares under a nationalised railway is somewhat deluded! If you read the company accounts FirstGroup made a combined ^55million operating profit from all five of its rail franchises. That's peanuts really in comparison to the leasing companies profits (^350million in 2011) and some franchises like the West Coast and East Coast. If you look into Virgin West Coast you'll see what Branson kicked off when he lost the the franchise. If you look at CrossCountry you'll see why he kept quiet when he lost that one!! The average profit margin for a rail company is just 3.9% What no one has worked out is how much the treasury makes from these fare rises. Under some franchise agreements, additional revenue received goes straight back to the government. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: grahame on August 25, 2014, 08:04:05 What no one has worked out is how much the treasury makes from these fare rises. Under some franchise agreements, additional revenue received goes straight back to the government. Under the previous GW franchise, a high proportion of any extra revenue gained went to government (under cap and collar) and that stifled innovation through extra passenger numbers / farebox income. Taking the extra stop at Ashchurch in the morning HST from Worcester to London via Swindon, whe paid by local authority subsidy, it was a net gain to First. Had it switched to farebox under the old franchise it would probably have meant a loss to First, even if the net income had been the same, as around 80% of the fares paid would have the gone to the treasury. My understanding is that this has been swept away under the current franchise; certainly, the Ashchurch stop has carried on via farebox funding and if the amount involved is the same as the subsidy was, I have to say that's common sense; "most / all extra farebox to treasury" suppresses (taxes) development. So I think that under the current arrangement, less extra revenue goes to government ... and there are other things which would tend to confirm that. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: TaplowGreen on August 25, 2014, 09:36:57 I wonder if FGW have factored in any costs in providing compensation to 1st Class ticket holders who can't get a seat? Difficult, as they'll not know exactly how many people are likely to be affected. The whole idea of creating "extra" seats by reducing First class accommodation was well intentioned but badly planned and not thought through properly by those concerned...it's really a smokescreen for the inability to increase capacity by more robust means. I'm sure it wouldn't have taken a genius to do a count of occupied 1st class seats on peak time services to give a pretty good idea of the consequences, and the inevitable cost of compensating those who have paid for a 1st class service and will now find themselves standing up. As for a-drivers comment that "Commuters will always complain even if the service was free" I'm sure it's tongue in cheek but it does give insight into how customers are viewed by a large proportion of those employed by the railway industry, if this and other chatrooms are anything to go by. In fact, British people are notoriously resolute and reluctant to complain, which is often why service providers get away with murder in this Country. I wouldn't presume to speak for all commuters, and the last time I did complain to FGW I didn't even get the courtesy of a reply, however for my own part if I could be provided with a reliable, reasonably priced service which didn't involved being confined in conditions which would be illegal were I to be a cow, and where when things did go hopelessly wrong (hopefully less than twice a week which seems to be the average at the moment) there would be adequate information provided as to how/when I might get home/to work, there'd be no complaints from me! Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: johoare on August 25, 2014, 09:55:04 I'm sure it wouldn't have taken a genius to do a count of occupied 1st class seats on peak time services to give a pretty good idea of the consequences, and the inevitable cost of compensating those who have paid for a 1st class service and will now find themselves standing up. I saw them counting passengers in First Class on one occasion and First Class was quite full that day. If they checked tickets more than occasionally (after Maidenhead) they could count the passengers then too ;D I wouldn't presume to speak for all commuters, and the last time I did complain to FGW I didn't even get the courtesy of a reply, however for my own part if I could be provided with a reliable, reasonably priced service which didn't involved being confined in conditions which would be illegal were I to be a cow, and where when things did go hopelessly wrong (hopefully less than twice a week which seems to be the average at the moment) there would be adequate information provided as to how/when I might get home/to work, there'd be no complaints from me! Not just for commuters either. I was on a train from Paddington to Maidenhead on Saturday evening. Between Ealing Broadway and Hayes and Harlington (where it eased a bit) conditions on that train were more than dangerous.. The train despatcher at Ealing Broadway didn't seem overly concerned though.. If it hadn't eased a bit at Hayes I was going to get off and wait for however long it took for a less packed train to arrive. Obviously it was only 3 carriages. I can only imagine the vast amount of people that must be employed at weekends to do the maintenance work on all those carriages that aren't being used :-\ ::) ::) Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: ellendune on August 25, 2014, 09:58:33 I'm sure it wouldn't have taken a genius to do a count of occupied 1st class seats on peak time services to give a pretty good idea of the consequences, and the inevitable cost of compensating those who have paid for a 1st class service and will now find themselves standing up. Remembering of course that FGW will be the only ones who know how many of those passengers have 1st advanced tickets. I saw them counting passengers in First Class on one occasion and First Class was quite full that day. If they checked tickets more than occasionally (after Maidenhead) they could count the passengers then too ;D And only count this who had first class tickets As for a-drivers comment that "Commuters will always complain even if the service was free" I'm sure it's tongue in cheek but it does give insight into how customers are viewed by a large proportion of those employed by the railway industry, if this and other chatrooms are anything to go by. I am inclined to agree with Taplow Green on this one. .... however for my own part if I could be provided with a reliable, reasonably priced service which didn't involved being confined in conditions which would be illegal were I to be a cow, and where when things did go hopelessly wrong (hopefully less than twice a week which seems to be the average at the moment) there would be adequate information provided as to how/when I might get home/to work, there'd be no complaints from me! I cannot disagree the same applies for the long distance occasional travellers who must pay 70 pence per mile plus Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: grahame on August 25, 2014, 10:22:12 In order to add some background data to the discussions, here are some current fares - in each case the 7 day, standard class season ticket and then the cost of a buy-on-the-day, any-train standard class return - day if available, otherwise period.
Reading to Paddington 102.60 RDG - PAD 7 / 40 miles = 25.6p / mile 42.50 RDG - PAD = 53p / mile Chippenham to Paddington 250.50 CPM - PAD 7 / 94 miles = 26.6p / mile 157.00 CPM - PAD = 83p / mile Bedwyn to Paddington 119.60 BDW - PAD 7 / 75 miles = 16p / mile 56.50 BDW - PAD = 38p / mile Truro to Plymouth 50.10 TRU - PLY 7 / 54 miles = 9.3p / mile 16.20 TRU - PLY = 15p / mile Trowbridge to Filton Abbeywood 49.10 TRO - FIT 7 / 28 miles = 17p / mile 10.80 TRO - FIT = 19p / mile Maidenhead to Paddington 71.00 MHD - PAD 7 / 30 miles = 23.6p / mile 20.80 MHD - PAD = 35p / mile Commuters often need to vary their trains, so I have not looked at fares that are train-specific (e.g. advance fares) and I've left out one-way-first seasons, 3 days + weekend seasons, and other offerings on some of these routes. Distances for pence per mile calculations are based on road distance, on the basis that roads are a bigger network and I don't see why rail passengers going from "A" to "B" should be evaluated on milage via "D" when there's no direct railway line any longer. If the forum is still around in 5 years time, it will be very interesting indeed to see the equivalent fares at that time! Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: Umberleigh on August 25, 2014, 10:27:24 I'm sure it wouldn't have taken a genius to do a count of occupied 1st class seats on peak time services to give a pretty good idea of the consequences, and the inevitable cost of compensating those who have paid for a 1st class service and will now find themselves standing up. Remembering of course that FGW will be the only ones who know how many of those passengers have 1st advanced tickets. I saw them counting passengers in First Class on one occasion and First Class was quite full that day. If they checked tickets more than occasionally (after Maidenhead) they could count the passengers then too ;D And only count this who had first class tickets As for a-drivers comment that "Commuters will always complain even if the service was free" I'm sure it's tongue in cheek but it does give insight into how customers are viewed by a large proportion of those employed by the railway industry, if this and other chatrooms are anything to go by. I am inclined to agree with Taplow Green on this one. .... however for my own part if I could be provided with a reliable, reasonably priced service which didn't involved being confined in conditions which would be illegal were I to be a cow, and where when things did go hopelessly wrong (hopefully less than twice a week which seems to be the average at the moment) there would be adequate information provided as to how/when I might get home/to work, there'd be no complaints from me! I cannot disagree the same applies for the long distance occasional travellers who must pay 70 pence per mile plus First Advance tickets are not available on peak morning services. The cheapest First single from Reading to Paddington at this time is ^42.50, almost twice the price of the Standard fare. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: IndustryInsider on August 25, 2014, 10:57:33 No one wins. It is not something to advertise or be happy about. The whole idea of creating "extra" seats by reducing First class accommodation was well intentioned but badly planned and not thought through properly by those concerned...it's really a smokescreen for the inability to increase capacity by more robust means. How can no one win when thousands more people will get a seat each day in Standard Class? Perhaps some of those passengers interviewed by the Reading Chronicle will now be able to get a seat as a result? It won't solve the capacity problem, but it will help to alleviate it until the IEP programme and electric suburban/Crossrail trains arrive within the next two to five years. After then, hopefully the capacity problems will be largely solved, but until then this is the sensible (and only) way of providing an increase and talk of smokescreens really is ridiculous when a wholesale upgrade of the line is ongoing and new trains are literally just around the corner. I can appreciate your own personal frustration, NickB, as one of the tiny minority of passengers who travel in daily on a first class ticket on one of the few trains where the reduction will cause problems, but please let's not pretend that it's anything other than a handful of trains a day of the many hundreds that operate where there are any issues. I've still yet to see any FGW HST with no seats in first class seats available when I've been watching arrivals and departures from Paddington over the last few months - not saying they don't exist, but it's pretty darn rare! Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: ChrisB on August 25, 2014, 13:15:41 Those pence/mile figures for seasons (& monthlies/annuals will wirk out even less!) Grahame mentions anove are actually perfectly reasonable when used against the car. Its unlikely you'd get those figures if you drove, or at least not beat it by very much - in the average car
Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: ellendune on August 25, 2014, 13:43:56 Those pence/mile figures for seasons (& monthlies/annuals will wirk out even less!) Grahame mentions anove are actually perfectly reasonable when used against the car. Its unlikely you'd get those figures if you drove, or at least not beat it by very much - in the average car For the seasons yes, these are on a fairly constant rate per mile. Even the anytime fares are reasonable in those parts of the network where for historic reasons the anytime day return is the regulated fare. However once you get into the long distance fares where the anytime fare is unregulated, the anytime rates per mile stand out. I know the HMRC mileage rate of 45p a mile is a bit low but I am sure the real cost is nowhere near as high at 83p per mile! Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: stuving on August 25, 2014, 14:02:49 Those pence/mile figures for seasons (& monthlies/annuals will wirk out even less!) Grahame mentions anove are actually perfectly reasonable when used against the car. Its unlikely you'd get those figures if you drove, or at least not beat it by very much - in the average car It depends on how you consider the fixed (annual) costs. The AA's figure for running costs for a smallish car is about 20p per mile. If you own a car anyway, and that does not depend on how you travel to work, then the extra cost of driving to work is that 20p per mile - but there may be parking or other charges to add too. Comparing the full cost of the car with train fares is only correct if you are going to dispense with the car. In cost terms, you can buy a lot of hire car for the fixed costs of owning one - about ^1000 pa plus depreciation, which the AA has as ^2000-^2500 but will be a lot less for older cars. And you get a choice of vehicles. But it is a lot less convenient, so hardly anyone does it. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: grahame on August 25, 2014, 14:26:17 The big question on comparative costs is "how many people are travelling in the car?" ... Two together, Friends and Familiy and GroupSave are the railway's products aimed at the multi traveller market, but as far as I'm aware they're not available at all on peak fares or on season tickets.
In my experience (and I'm not the only one who's watched), typical car occupancy is around 1.2 people at commuter time; slightly higher at school run time, and possibly much higher on holiday weekends to the South West. If you, and I, and others were reliably able to walk out of our homes, hail any car with a spare seat and get a lift - changing if the driver wasn't going exactly where we wanted - we would have hugely different travel metrics! Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: gpn01 on August 25, 2014, 15:27:26 No one wins. It is not something to advertise or be happy about. The whole idea of creating "extra" seats by reducing First class accommodation was well intentioned but badly planned and not thought through properly by those concerned...it's really a smokescreen for the inability to increase capacity by more robust means. How can no one win when thousands more people will get a seat each day in Standard Class? Perhaps some of those passengers interviewed by the Reading Chronicle will now be able to get a seat as a result? It won't solve the capacity problem, but it will help to alleviate it until the IEP programme and electric suburban/Crossrail trains arrive within the next two to five years. After then, hopefully the capacity problems will be largely solved, but until then this is the sensible (and only) way of providing an increase and talk of smokescreens really is ridiculous when a wholesale upgrade of the line is ongoing and new trains are literally just around the corner. I can appreciate your own personal frustration, NickB, as one of the tiny minority of passengers who travel in daily on a first class ticket on one of the few trains where the reduction will cause problems, but please let's not pretend that it's anything other than a handful of trains a day of the many hundreds that operate where there are any issues. I've still yet to see any FGW HST with no seats in first class seats available when I've been watching arrivals and departures from Paddington over the last few months - not saying they don't exist, but it's pretty darn rare! Why couldn't FGW switch carriages only when existing ones are underutilised? Instead they've just taken a broad brush approach. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: a-driver on August 25, 2014, 15:37:22 If anyone thinks that the arrival of the IEP will solve overcrowding on our routes I think they're going to be very dissapointed.
I think the project has been ill-conceived with more focus given by government officials on whether it works financial rather than looking at physical capacity required & passenger comfort as well. It has already been said that the IEP is based on a poor spec by the DfT which Hitachi are trying to make good. I also suspect the leasing charges paid will be astronomical which will result in cuts here and there to save ^ Quote As for a-drivers comment that "Commuters will always complain even if the service was free" I'm sure it's tongue in cheek but it does give insight into how customers are viewed by a large proportion of those employed by the railway industry, if this and other chatrooms are anything to go by. In fact, British people are notoriously resolute and reluctant to complain, which is often why service providers get away with murder in this Country. ;D Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: IndustryInsider on August 25, 2014, 15:50:55 Try the 06.40, and definitely the 07.08 from Maidenhead to Paddington. More and !more standing in 1st class. I'm sure those two trains often do indeed form part of the tiny handful a day. I also expect some passengers will not renew their First Class inbound only season tickets if they regularly travel on those trains and will opt to save money and travel standard class (where they will be more likely to get a seat as there will be extra ones), so it will become less of an issue over time. Indeed I wonder, how many inbound only First Class season tickets are sold purely because there has been too much First Class seating and not enough Standard Class so commuters are inclined to pay the extra so they can secure a seat? Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: ChrisB on August 25, 2014, 16:12:35 Now that is a *very* valid question!
Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: Oxonhutch on August 25, 2014, 16:37:16 With the First Class crush on certain trains in the morning rush, I foresee the removal of these tickets which sell at a relatively small premium over the Standard Class seasons. Either that or a limitation as to which services these tickets are valid on.
These products appear to be sold merely to mop up unused First Class demand. And I well know that now there are considerably less FC seats - as well as my well loved quiet coach. The latter hurts more than the loadings. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: TaplowGreen on August 25, 2014, 16:42:20 Try the 06.40, and definitely the 07.08 from Maidenhead to Paddington. More and !more standing in 1st class. I'm sure those two trains often do indeed form part of the tiny handful a day. I also expect some passengers will not renew their First Class inbound only season tickets if they regularly travel on those trains and will opt to save money and travel standard class (where they will be more likely to get a seat as there will be extra ones), so it will become less of an issue over time. Indeed I wonder, how many inbound only First Class season tickets are sold purely because there has been too much First Class seating and not enough Standard Class so commuters are inclined to pay the extra so they can secure a seat? .......so First class ticket holders opt for standard class instead as the premium price is no longer worth paying......and take up more of the "additional" standard class accommodation.........brilliantly thought out.....it's never been a case of "too much" First class seating, there's not enough capacity full stop!!! Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: IndustryInsider on August 25, 2014, 17:17:06 Yes, they do take up more of the additional standard class seating, but as there's much more extra standard class seating being added than first class seating being removed that's where your extra capacity comes from.
As for too much first class seating, there clearly was on the majority of trains throughout the day with the old layout - whole carriages running around completely empty on some services. Even on vast majority of the peak services there was ample spare accommodation in first class whilst standard class passengers were unable to get a seat. TaplowGreen, please tell me what else could sensibly have been done to add extra seats before the line upgrade completes and the new trains arrive? Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: gpn01 on August 25, 2014, 18:35:09 Yes, they do take up more of the additional standard class seating, but as there's much more extra standard class seating being added than first class seating being removed that's where your extra capacity comes from. How about replace the carriages only where they were underutilised?As for too much first class seating, there clearly was on the majority of trains throughout the day with the old layout - whole carriages running around completely empty on some services. Even on vast majority of the peak services there was ample spare accommodation in first class whilst standard class passengers were unable to get a seat. TaplowGreen, please tell me what else could sensibly have been done to add extra seats before the line upgrade completes and the new trains arrive? Another idea....if you have fixed capacity and the service is full ....stop continuing to sell tickets? Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: ellendune on August 25, 2014, 18:55:44 How about replace the carriages only where they were underutilised? Not sure how that would work with best utilisation of stock. Would mean having special stock just for the peak hour Oxford services thats top at Maidenhead and Twyford etc.? If so it might mean less efficient use of trains and so less services. Another idea....if you have fixed capacity and the service is full ....stop continuing to sell tickets? Not sure how well that would go down politically. It might also be against the franchise rules. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: grahame on August 25, 2014, 18:55:57 Another idea....if you have fixed capacity and the service is full ....stop continuing to sell tickets? "Sorry I'm late to work ... they ran out of tickets for the train" ... When you buy a season ticket, is it going to be for the same train each day? Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: gpn01 on August 26, 2014, 08:23:28 Another idea....if you have fixed capacity and the service is full ....stop continuing to sell tickets? "Sorry I'm late to work ... they ran out of tickets for the train" ... When you buy a season ticket, is it going to be for the same train each day? For many commuters with season tickets I would say the answer is yes - Same train every day. Maybe a guaranteed seat service could be provided? Problem I find with these sort of issues is that those in the industry always adopt the supply attitude and reflect that it would take too much effort to change how things are done. I really wish they'd start thinking from the customer perspective and instead think about how to improve the service to the customer. I accept that it's made complicated by having multiple operators and organisations, government imposed regulations, etc. It really is time someone had the tenacity to rip the whole of UK rail operation up and do a proper restructure of it to turn it into a vibrant, competitive, transport capability that is profitable and provides good customer service. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: NickB on August 26, 2014, 08:55:34 Try the 06.40, and definitely the 07.08 from Maidenhead to Paddington. More and !more standing in 1st class. I'm sure those two trains often do indeed form part of the tiny handful a day. I also expect some passengers will not renew their First Class inbound only season tickets if they regularly travel on those trains and will opt to save money and travel standard class (where they will be more likely to get a seat as there will be extra ones), so it will become less of an issue over time. Indeed I wonder, how many inbound only First Class season tickets are sold purely because there has been too much First Class seating and not enough Standard Class so commuters are inclined to pay the extra so they can secure a seat? There will be a 1 year lag on any decision to remove First-Eastbound tickets as any sensible commuter purchases on 31st December. Therefore throughout 2015 they will be travelling on 2014 tickets. Even if FGW removed First-Eastbound tickets this yearend there will still be a year's lag until those tickets expire. Even with the carriage conversion those trains will still be standing room only as there is an overall capacity shortfall on those services - Standard and First. Therefore I'd rather stand in First AND claim >100% of my money back (as comp exceeds the basis in ticket upgrade) rather than stand in Standard and get nothing. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: NickB on August 26, 2014, 09:06:40 TaplowGreen, please tell me what else could sensibly have been done to add extra seats before the line upgrade completes and the new trains arrive? As we are talking about the specific overcrowding on Maid-->Paddington services I would suggest that the overall calling pattern is to blame to some extent. When I first moved to Maidenhead in 2010 both the 07.08 and the 07.18 were HST's. Passengers such as myself were very happy to get either train as both had ample capacity and moved quickly. In 2011 the 07.16 was changed to a Turbo. Those that used to get that train experienced regular overcrowding and its arrival at Paddington was pushed back. At that point the 07.08 became more and more crowded as passengers didn't want to travel on the 07.16. This is why the 07.08 is over-capacity in both First and Standard areas. The need to move to the 07.08 from the Turbo service was even more essential for First Class passengers as there is no provision of any services on the Turbo and the location of the First Class doors changes everyday making it impossible to even board in First Class. So you see, FGW created the mess on this service themselves. ;D What can be done? Well there is an HST that flies through Maidenhead without stopping around the same time as the 07.08. You could stop the train and allow passengers on, thereby spreading the burden of the 07.08. To my recollection the next train through after this train is the 07.16 which stops, so it ought not to cause too many problems with the down line. But I'm just a passenger so don't know much about that. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: IndustryInsider on August 26, 2014, 09:59:15 What can be done? Well there is an HST that flies through Maidenhead without stopping around the same time as the 07.08. You could stop the train and allow passengers on, thereby spreading the burden of the 07.08. To my recollection the next train through after this train is the 07.16 which stops, so it ought not to cause too many problems with the down line. But I'm just a passenger so don't know much about that. As well as the potential pathing difficulties, the trouble with that is you then annoy a different set of passengers who will say their journey times are being lengthened by stopping more long-distance fast trains at suburban commuter stations - in other words FGW can't really win! Let's not forget that less than ten years ago nothing apart from Turbos ever stopped at Maidenhead - the growth in commuting from there (and other places) really has been incredible! There is a great opportunity to run nice long (8, maybe even 12 car) modern EMU's through Maidenhead and Slough in a couple of years when the electrification is complete. Let's hope that the benefits electrification will bring will mean many more seats for Maidenhead commuters, as well as those from Reading and further afield as that is the dramatic change that is just around the corner. Until then, the odd tweak here and there is all that is really possible I'm afraid. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: BBM on August 26, 2014, 10:40:37 As we are talking about the specific overcrowding on Maid-->Paddington services I would suggest that the overall calling pattern is to blame to some extent. When I first moved to Maidenhead in 2010 both the 07.08 and the 07.18 were HST's. Passengers such as myself were very happy to get either train as both had ample capacity and moved quickly. In 2009 a change in my working hours meant that my morning train from TWY became the 0653 instead of the 0720 Turbo. At the time the 0653 was an HST and for me the additional comfort more than made up for the earlier start. Towards the end of 2009, FGW introduced the First Eastbound season tickets and I seriously considered changing over to that, especially as at the time First Class on that train still had a host serving hot drinks and newspapers. However I quickly changed my mind when I learnt that the 0653 was to go over to being a Turbo at the December 2009 timetable change. Apparently the change was to be temporary in order to release an HST to the Cotswold Line while Turbos were being refurbished. Five years later the 0653 is still a Turbo. Every morning on arrival at MAI there is always a crowd on Platform 2 waiting for the 0708 HST even though my train (the 0702 departure from Platform 4) arrives first at PAD. I can understand First Class ticket holders preferring this train, but there is also always a crowd at the Standard Class end. This is obviously an interesting demonstration of people's preference for HSTs! Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: johoare on August 26, 2014, 10:59:46 And the fact that when that train leaves Maidenhead at 7.02 it is often/usually very crowded..
Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: ChrisB on August 26, 2014, 11:21:08 I suspect that the Eastbound-only annuals might be abolished before December....maybe only monthlies available thru 2015? Although no new stocjk is being in service until 2017, maybe 1 more year of annuals?
Making the service supplied by all the same stock would result in pax spreading themselves out again, rather than all trying to board HSTs. With the same stopping pattern, a 15min service (4tph) would work?.... Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: grahame on August 26, 2014, 11:28:44 Let's face it, folks ... the basis on which current services were specified, a long time ago, assumed a growth rate of under 1%. The typical actual growth rate for rail has been 8% compound for the best part of a decade, and that means that the expectation of 100 passengers rising to 108 has been exceeded - the 100 passengers has risen to 216 region not local figures!
Some very sensible things have been done to improve the situation - but those which have been completed so far can't be sufficient to cope with the staggering increases seen to the extend of providing fast transits, frequent services and seats for everyone who wants them at a reasonable price. We hope (and I'm not an expert here!) that the whole electrification / Reading rebuild / Crossrail thing has been specified not only in a way to bring us up to a system which copes with demand immediately after it's completed and launched, but also continues to cope with that demand into the future - i.e. through that generation of trains and services. I was struck when I first got involved in calculating business cases and looking at potential changes as to how thoroughly cases were made and assumptions and hypotheses tested. And that's absolutely how it should be before expensive investment decisions. The input data was - in my view - just about as realistic as it could be. The shocker to follow was that on the end of the calculations, an extra "optimism factor" of 60% was applied, dumbing down the figures we had as if to say "we don't believe you ... so we're going to cut that back ...". The result in our little neck of the woods is that we're way over target in the first year of the improvements running (good), that we're already having capacity issues and people standing and even turned away specialist case - cycles (bad), and that the choice between an hourly and two-hourly service, which went for two-hourly, has left us with a service that requires enhancement sooner rather than later. TravelWatch SouthWest have been very concerned at the gap between their anticipated passenger growth and fleet growth for coming years ... what's the score in the Thames Valley? Do we know if the improvements as they come on line will simply catch us up, or provide what's needed for years to come? Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: ChrisB on August 26, 2014, 11:39:30 I suspect the former. Simply because the GWR in the Thames Valley is at capacity in the peaks. That won't be properly altered by simply upgrading stations. Other than lengthening trains, I'm not sure what a realistic answer is.
Possibly cheap seasons on Crossrail? There are many who would trade an extra 30mins each way for, say, ^1500-^2k in their pockets.... Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: IndustryInsider on August 26, 2014, 14:52:23 Splitting it into three different commuting zones of 'inner suburban' 'outer suburban' and 'long distance' I would have thought that when Crossrail is fully up and running the 'inner suburban' routes will provide more than enough capacity on the local services for quite some time - nine carriage trains will run at least as frequently as they do now replacing the current mish-mash of 2/3/4/5 and 6 carriage trains.
'Outer suburban' is the big question mark on service provision as we don't yet know what trains will be working the services, let alone their length and frequency in the peaks. All we really know is that there are two relief line paths per hour off-peak. If 8 car EMUs provide a reasonable semi-fast service between Oxford/Newbury/Reading and Paddington calling (after Reading) at Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough during the peaks giving the same sort of frequency (or slightly less) than currently provided then those stations will, I think, have adequate capacity, and if they're extended to 12 car trains then they'd be plenty of capacity. 'Long distance' and if the number of trains planned to run in the peak are all either 9-Car or 2x5-Car length trains, then that would be plenty to allow quite a large increase of passengers over the coming years, but we know they're not all going to be of that length, so it depends just how many are shorter 5-car length as to what growth can be accommodated. Answers on a postcard! One final unknown is how the inner/outer suburban services are going to be managed in the short period post-electrification but pre-Crossrail (Dec 2016-19), when capacity between Royal Oak and Kensal Green is reduced as the modifications to the track layouts to allow the Crossrail service to operate are made. Curtailing the Greenford service at West Ealing will provide two extra paths an hour, but other paths will be likely lost so it's going to be interesting to see how the TOC copes with that. I'm optimistic about the number of seats rising to an acceptable level to accommodate growth (particularly after Crossrail in 2019), but it's very difficult to be sure given the number of variables that are still unknown. The GW ITT document did give the topic of managing growth the highest percentage level of any category of the scoring system for the Greater Western franchise - 17.5% of the total points available in fact. We all know that the franchising system crashed shortly after that, but at least it provesthe DfT had capacity right at the top of its agenda, so hopefully nothing has changed in that respect! Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on August 26, 2014, 15:42:44 TravelWatch SouthWest have been very concerned at the gap between their anticipated passenger growth and fleet growth for coming years ... what's the score in the Thames Valley? Do we know if the improvements as they come on line will simply catch us up, or provide what's needed for years to come? A very good question! The answer has to be, 'we don't know' as it depends on a variety of things - the continuation (or not) in the growth of employment in central London (and, if it continues to increase, at what rate), what will become of the Heathrow Express, pricing policy and so on. Crossrail will make a huge difference in capacity from Maidenhead inwards and remove essentially all the inner-suburban travellers from Paddington. The longer, and for many stations more frequent, trains will absorb the growth expected for a long time to come. I feel the situation is not so clear from Maidenhead westwards to Newbury/Bedwyn and to Oxford. Firstly the type of rolling stock has not yet been confirmed although Andrew Adonis in his original electrification announcement said that cascaded Class 319s from Thameslink would be used. These are, I would suggest, not ideal as their top speed is 100mph and having only 4 axles motored will not even be able to match the acceleration of an SET so there will continue to be a performance gap if scheduled to use the Mains. Some performance improvement may be achieved if they are re-powered with ac motors but the situation will only be slightly better than the present with Class 165/166s mixing it with HSTs. The other part of this is that these semi-fast services will be effectively squeezed off the Relief Lines from Stockley Bridge Junction (or more likely Dolphin Junction at Slough) inwards due to the number of all-stations Crossrail trains running from West Drayton/Heathrow towards central London. If the service pattern stays similar to the present one then this will affect the Oxford terminators more than the Newbury trains which use the Mains with a stop at Slough. However the new layout at Reading will enable trains from Newbury to reach the Reliefs easily so this pattern could well change. But forcing outer-suburban passengers west of Reading to change to Crossrail to carry on to Maidenhead or Slough is unacceptable. The issue of the capacity on the Mains between Reading and London has been addressed in the London and Southeast RUS of 2011. It stated: Quote The RUS anticipates significant crowding problems with Reading area to London Paddington commuters, in particular, unless further capacity is provided. Note that this conclusion has only marginally been affected by the recent funding announcement regarding electrification and the Intercity Express Programme (IEP), since additional trains into London Paddington in the high-peak hour over the fast lines are not operationally achievable regardless of train type". (My italics). There are some 18 or 19 peak hour services using the Mains east of Airport Junction into Paddington. There is not only the issue of track capacity but also of platform capacity at Paddington as not all the platforms can accept the 9 or 10 coach SETs. Some longer distance capacity could be made available if the 4 Hexes per hour were relegated to the Reliefs - but this service would not then be attractive as it would have to conform with the all-stations inner suburban pattern of the Crossrail trains. I speak from experience - both S-Bahn routes into Munich from the Airport are all-stations affairs and take about 45 minutes to reach the Hauptbahnhof. A non-stop service could do it in 15 to 20 minutes and after a long day, coping with airports and then a flight then sebsequently sitting in a train stopping everywhere when all I wanted to do was get home was more than I could cope with so I often took a taxi. So if the railways don't want to boost road transport then HEx, in some non-stop form, has to stay. So my conclusion is - the improvements will be good in parts. The slightly longer SETs will offer some more seats, but there won't be many more of trains - at least in the peaks. Possibly one or two more as the new Reading layout will ease operation - and will certainly improve reliability - but they will fill up after a year or two. So great if one takes the train from Iver, not much difference if one takes the train from Didcot. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: ChrisB on August 26, 2014, 16:37:47 But forcing outer-suburban passengers west of Reading to change to Crossrail to carry on to Maidenhead or Slough is unacceptable. Why? The number of pax wanting to go to those stations from west of Reading is infinitesimal.....compared to the numbers on those trains heading further East. I think a change at REading to get there is perfectly reasonable, probably on Crossrail, I suspect. The rest of your piece seems to concentrate of journey time improvement?...Surely, this exercise is to improve *capacity*, with any journey time improvement being secondary? I think we've all suggested that at least in the short term, everyone should get a seat. Which is a huge improvement. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: didcotdean on August 26, 2014, 17:26:00 The other factor is what any suppressed demand might be that would be released with improvements. I recall that usage increased by 10% or a bit more with the introduction of the turbos replacing the previous heritage diesel etc service.
Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on August 26, 2014, 17:26:14 But forcing outer-suburban passengers west of Reading to change to Crossrail to carry on to Maidenhead or Slough is unacceptable. Why? The number of pax wanting to go to those stations from west of Reading is infinitesimal.....compared to the numbers on those trains heading further East. I think a change at REading to get there is perfectly reasonable, probably on Crossrail, I suspect. The rest of your piece seems to concentrate of journey time improvement?...Surely, this exercise is to improve *capacity*, with any journey time improvement being secondary? I think we've all suggested that at least in the short term, everyone should get a seat. Which is a huge improvement. On current planning there will be only 2 Crossrail trains per hour extended to Reading, so if the semi-fasts are taken out of the Relief Line services there will be effectively a halving of the service east of Reading. I have seen no reference anywhere that all four of the Crossrail peak hour trains which are planned to terminate at Maidenhead will be extended to Reading. My post was written with this assumption. I agree that the flows from west of Reading to the intermediate stations to London are not as large as those to and from Paddington. However people wanting a faster journey to London tend to change at Reading already and there are still large numbers of people who stay in the semi-fasts when they call at Reading. Whilst some of these will be people who don't want to lose a seat and are prepared to accept the 25 minute longer journey to London many are people going to and from work in towns such as Maidenhead, Slough and Ealing. The point is that forcing people to change to a less frequent Crossrail service is putting the desires of the train operator in front of the clearly expressed requirements of the passengers. It's not good public relations and it's not good for business. I have no idea how you thought that my post had anything to do with journey time improvements - I certainly never mentioned or implied them - it's all to do with capacity. The point about the performance of the 319 sets is that, if they cannot keep up with the SETs, there will be NO increase in the number of trains that can used the Mains over what is achievable now. A train that takes 5 or 6 minutes longer to reach Reading than the SET behind it costs 2 paths. Maximum throughput is achieved by running trains with identical, or at least very similar, performance. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: Rhydgaled on August 26, 2014, 19:04:32 Anyone who believes that a government wouldn't have increased fares or even cut fares under a nationalised railway is somewhat deluded! That's ^400m right there that wouldn't have to come from fairpayer's pockets if the railways were still nationalised. Granted that is quite a simplistic view of things, but surely not a delusional one?If you read the company accounts FirstGroup made a combined ^55million operating profit from all five of its rail franchises. That's peanuts really in comparison to the leasing companies profits (^350million in 2011) and some franchises like the West Coast and East Coast. If anyone thinks that the arrival of the IEP will solve overcrowding on our routes I think they're going to be very dissapointed. Hitachi might even actually manage to come out with a good train despite the poor spec but that won't do anything to resolve the deployment strategy, with non-expired 9-car trains on the ECML currently earmarked for replacement by brand new 9-car 800s/801 while many of 8-car ones currently going through capacity enhancment (by reducing first class) on the Great Western will be replaced by 5-car 800s/801s.I think the project has been ill-conceived with more focus given by government officials on whether it works financial rather than looking at physical capacity required & passenger comfort as well. It has already been said that the IEP is based on a poor spec by the DfT which Hitachi are trying to make good. I also suspect the leasing charges paid will be astronomical which will result in cuts here and there to save ^ Yes, they do take up more of the additional standard class seating, but as there's much more extra standard class seating being added than first class seating being removed that's where your extra capacity comes from. Indeed, less first class seats but more seats overall. Not ideal for those traveling first class but I suspect introducing 2+9 IC125 sets on the GWML would have been rather difficult, so probably a sensible move overall.There is a great opportunity to run nice long (8, maybe even 12 car) modern EMU's through Maidenhead and Slough in a couple of years when the electrification is complete. Let's hope that the benefits electrification will bring will mean many more seats for Maidenhead commuters, as well as those from Reading and further afield as that is the dramatic change that is just around the corner. 'Long distance' and if the number of trains planned to run in the peak are all either 9-Car or 2x5-Car length trains, then that would be plenty to allow quite a large increase of passengers over the coming years, but we know they're not all going to be of that length, so it depends just how many are shorter 5-car length as to what growth can be accommodated. Answers on a postcard! One final unknown is how the inner/outer suburban services are going to be managed in the short period post-electrification but pre-Crossrail (Dec 2016-19), when capacity between Royal Oak and Kensal Green is reduced as the modifications to the track layouts to allow the Crossrail service to operate are made. Curtailing the Greenford service at West Ealing will provide two extra paths an hour, but other paths will be likely lost so it's going to be interesting to see how the TOC copes with that. I'm optimistic about the number of seats rising to an acceptable level to accommodate growth (particularly after Crossrail in 2019), but it's very difficult to be sure given the number of variables that are still unknown. The GW ITT document did give the topic of managing growth the highest percentage level of any category of the scoring system for the Greater Western franchise - 17.5% of the total points available in fact. We all know that the franchising system crashed shortly after that, but at least it provesthe DfT had capacity right at the top of its agenda, so hopefully nothing has changed in that respect! One question is, will the 8/12-car EMUs be enough to attract the passengers away from the faster, but shorter, 5-car 800s/801s? Perhaps the DfT have decided it will, which perhaps explains why they have decided to specify a reduction in train length on long-distance services. If so, I suspect they have been focusing on the London peak and assuming that if they provide enough capacity into and out of London everything will be fine. If that is the case, then that is where they have made their big mistake. London is not the only major city on the ICGW network and there will be commuting into all of them, at the exact same time as the London peak. The 10-car (2x5) trains can't be in two places at once, if they are providing capacity into London in the peak then they cannot be providing peak capacity into Cardiff, say. I expect some nasty non-London overcrowding if somebody doesn't boost the number of 9-car units in the GW IEP fleet. As for your 'postcard', from I quick look at the draft diagrams DfT used to estimate diagram requirements I didn't notice any fives arriving at PAD between 7am and 08:45, but outside the London peak they are rather too common. Some longer distance capacity could be made available if the 4 Hexes per hour were relegated to the Reliefs - but this service would not then be attractive as it would have to conform with the all-stations inner suburban pattern of the Crossrail trains. I speak from experience - both S-Bahn routes into Munich from the Airport are all-stations affairs and take about 45 minutes to reach the Hauptbahnhof. A non-stop service could do it in 15 to 20 minutes and after a long day, coping with airports and then a flight then sebsequently sitting in a train stopping everywhere when all I wanted to do was get home was more than I could cope with so I often took a taxi. One idea of mine regarding HS2 was that instead of a spur from the north there be a link from London to the GWML at Old Oak Common, with HEx diverted onto HS2 between Old Oak Common and London (even better would be a new HS branch line between Old Oak Common and Heathrow, extending to Reading to provide the western rail access and allowing for futher westward extension in future if needed to boost capacity by having a second rail link between London and Bath/Bristol, plus using 'Euston Cross' instead of Euston so that the HEx is replaced by an extension of the SouthEastern Javelin service).So if the railways don't want to boost road transport then HEx, in some non-stop form, has to stay. Title: Re: Commuters furious over rail fare increase Post by: stuving on August 26, 2014, 20:09:52 It's probably worth explaining what those RUS passenger figures quoted earlier are. There's no single table with them in.
There's are three 2010 base figures: capacity in seat, seats plus acceptable standing, and actual numbers carried. That last one may be demand, unless that's well above capacity in which case demand is unknown. There's a pre-RUS capacity, i.e. including CP4 infrastructure enhancements and further things known and committed (Reading, Crossrail) or announced by the government to 2011 (SET, electrification, etc). Then there's 2031 predicted demand, based on a huge increase on the relief/Crossrail side (211%) and "only" 55% on the mains and HEX. This gives, for the morning peak hour arrivals:
The table actually says "main line and other fast trains", so I guess it includes those that swap onto the mains after Reading. However, there must still be some some assumption built into the figures about how, for example, Maidenhead commuters split between the Crossrail and fast trains. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |