Great Western Coffee Shop

From the Bristol Post (http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Thousands-passengers-dodging-fares-Bristol-area/story-22794847-detail/story.html?):

So he wants to be able to pay the fare. But then complains when asked to pay.

I don't quite understand  ???  ::)

Is the lost revenue from those alighting at earlier stops greater than employing extra staff --> less TOC profit --> less money returning to Taxpayer?

Not saying it's right that fares aren't being collected of course.

How many stations?
How many services?
You would need at least 2 people to cover station exits per exit.
Times by 2 for AM/PM
Then you would need staff sickness/al cover/gpr

I reckon you would need a coverage of 10 extra staff at say ^13per hour x 35 hour weeks. Plus Employers NI contributions plus Pension plus uniform costs, etc etc.

Its starting to get expensive, just to collect that ^2 ticket..

Maybe the answer is more onboard staff, rather than trying to cover every exit at stations. At a fully loaded cost of around @^20ph then it only needs 10 sales per journey to cover costs, which I suspect would be comfortably exceeded.

Has the ticket price increased since the fare structure was put in place? Perhaps a modest increase would help pay for further investment in the service, including enhanced security and revenue protection (would would then raise further revenue).

I suspect Mr Green objected to having to wait in a long queue (which can at times be very long) to get out at Temple Meads, which is perfectly understandable if he hasn't had any opportunity to purchase a ticket en route. But I agree the way it was worded could easily have been misconstrued.

With technology improving it can't be too long before a simple contactless machine could be installed that enabled the zonal fares to be issued in an instant. You could offer a discount for tickets bought in advance, to incentivise purchase before boarding. Or maybe use mobile technology offering a similar discount. 

His complaint is that he has to pay on arrival at Bristol TM whereas fellow passengers from Severn Beach inward, alighting at intermediate stations may not have had the opportunity to pay.

Revenue collection along the Severn Beach Line has improved immeasurably in recent years but there is still lots of revenue going uncollected. The Bristol Post article is wrong to class this as fare dodging. It isn't. It's simply a case of passengers not having an opportunity to pay their fare.

Things have improved greatly on the Severn Beach Line in recent years. Bristol City Council subsidised the improvement from an hourly to every 40 minutes service in 2008. So successful was the subsidy in attracting additional passengers and generating additional revenue that it was no longer necessary by 2013 and was therefore withdrawn. An additional later evening service (Mon-Sat) has been added to the timetable as well as a year round Sunday service.

The danger though is complacency now that the operator (FGW) no longer has to comply with edicts from the local authority. Revenue collection remains an issue from those making intermediate journeys on the line. This has a knock on effect as it negatively skews the figures for passenger usage. That's to say nothing of the horrendous queues one has to face at the gateline at Bristol TM, particularly in the morning peak, of passengers who need to pay for their journey before exiting the station. The on board Assistant Ticket Examiners do a sterling job in the morning on inbound services, but such has been the success of the the improved service in attracting new passengers to the line in recent years, they simply cannot get to everyone to sell them a ticket before the train arrives at Temple Meads.

Inbound and outbound at quieter times by passengers joining anywhere other than Bristol TM I'd surmise that, at best, with only a conductor aboard, it's 50/50 whether you'll have an opportunity to pay for your journey. That's not good when it comes to analysing the cost of operating the service versus the revenue from ticket sales. Again, this is not fare dodging. It's simply a fact of not having an opportunity to pay.

If there was any such place that FGW should trial a novel ticketing solution, such as a smart card scheme, I can think of no better place than the Severn Beach Line.

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And in response to John R's post, I think that a modest increase in the fares on the Severn Beach Line is somewhat overdue. They've avoided any annual increase now since 2009. From 2008-2013 the running costs of the line were subsidised by Bristol City Council. That subsidy has now ended and the line presumably wipes it's face in terms of revenue versus cost. After all, FGW don't do altruism, so one must assume that if cost starts (or already are) exceeding revenue then one or both of two things have to happen. Improve fare collection efforts or increase fares. I have no problem with the latter as long as the former is also addressed. Currently a day return (we only have Anytime fares on the SVB Line) from Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads costs ^3. That's a 27 mile round trip at an absolute bargain price of 11p per mile.

Me, advocating a fares increase? Don't worry, I've not taken leave of my senses. But in this isolated case I think it is long overdue. As long as it isn't excessive, and as long as steps are taken to improve revenue collection on the Severn Beach Line, then a modest increase in fares would, in my opinion, be palatable.

As for enhanced security, I'd pay a few more pence per journey from Shirehampton to cover the cost of CCTV coverage. Elsewhere on the forum I've posted regularly about the vandalism at Shirehampton. Particularly toward the help points (we're now on our fifth). I noticed this past Tuesday that we had one of those fancy clear perspex bins installed at the station. On Wednesday I saw that it had been reduced to a pile of melted plastic.  ::)

I must admit to being puzzled by the whole system of fare collection on our railways (not just FGW). How can it be that it is considered non economic to collect fares from passengers travelling between unmanned stations.

The Severn Beach line seems to be an ideal candidate for an in depth study of the problem.

Firstly no-one seems to know the scope of the problem.

So I first suggest a weeklong census at every stations of passengers boarding and alighting for every train Saturday and Sunday as well. Would suggest October as I believe this is teh busiest month on teh railways.

YEs it would be expensive as you'd need 6 people (2 pershift) per station to cover the service times.

Then at least you'd have some figures to go on as you could asumme that anyone getting off a Bristol Bound train or joining a Severn Beach train at an intermediate station has not paid.

So what are the solutions Smart Cards like the Oyster would be could but how would you ensure passengers travelling between intermediate stations  tapped in and out. it's easy at Temple Mill you charge ^10 if the passenger fails to tap in or out for each journey.

For intermediate staions maybe you have a small squad who do sweeps at intermediate stations and make people tap in and out and charge ^10 if they haven't tapped in or out, or if they haven't a smart card just issue a ^10 ticket. With random sweeps at different times including weekends and the ^10 fare you might get people  into the habit of tapping in and out.

Of course you'd have to make the smart card easy to obtain and top up and (horror) make it transferrable as only one person at time can use it at time the railways are not losing any revenue if two people use the same card. You could charge ^20 (28 ^100 fare) if someone taps in twice within an hour on the same reader. You can also flash "Child" as Oyster does to prevent adults using the card.

I've not called it a penalty fare just the maximum fare for a journey on the line. You'd obviously have to take names and addresses of non smart card holders travelling and warn them next time they re caught they will be fined.

If the census does not support this level of espenditure for the revenue gain then just make travel between intermediate stations free except perhaps to Lawrence Hill and Stapleton Road but then the census will tell if those stations would be worth manning to collect lost revenue.

There is an absolutely horrible Management mantra "If you can't measure it you can't mange it!" which unfortunatley in this case is true as no-one seems to have any idea of the size of the problem or whether there is even is a problem.

It seems to me that there are potentially three issues here:

1) Passengers not being able to buy tickets at unmanned stations and then on the train;
2) Passengers without tickets having to queue for an extended period to buy tickets at Temple Meads;
3) Evasion of fares.

Let us assume that the majority of people are honest and, if given the chance, would pay their fares. In that case solve the first problem, then the second goes away as passengers will have been able to but their tickets before getting to Temple Meads.

We will then leave the third issue for another day. 

The options are:

1) More staff on trains - probably expensive due to the numbers required to sell tickets in the short distance between stops;
2) More ticket machines - but then vandalism is a problem
3) A smart card - surely a metro west smart card could be devised using established technology. It works in London, Lisbon, Porto and other places around the world after all. It could be made compatible with longer distance services later if that is they way they go.  Perhaps this should be included in the next franchise specification.

Of course there is the potential for smart card validators to be vandalised just as ticket machines could be.

Doesn't seem to matter what it is at my local station; help point, bin, planters, shelter... All appear attractive to the local scrotes.  ::)

Here's a picture from earlier this year of the queue at Bristol Temple Meads following arrival of an AM Severn Beach Line service. Around the same time a service arrives from Taunton, having called at Parson St and Bedminster disgorging more people to join the queue. This is not an untypical scene on weekday mornings.

On this occasion I hadn't had an opportunity to purchase a ticket on board, the ATE didn't get to me.

I repaired to Bonaparte's for coffee and a bacon sandwich while the queue died down! 

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/IMAG0130_zps22e2361a.jpg)

I can see a greater potential to create a vandal proof validator. No slots or display necessary. Does TFL have much problem with vandalism of validators?

More CCTV at TFL stations probably helps keep vandalism of ticket machines and validators down.

And that's (in my view) exactly the point that Mr Green is making. It's completely unacceptable to make people queue for that long to buy a ticket to exit the station, when they haven't had any opportunity beforehand to purchase a ticket.

I have travelled into Temple Meads from Yatton early in the day when the conductor has sold tickets at the back door on arrival for those who wanted them. Presumably on those occasions there was time enough for that. On recent journeys I have noted at least two members of staff on three car trains on ticket checks and selling on trains from Weston.

I am not a regular commuter so cannot make any general conclusions from these isolated experiences, but it seems to me that revenue collection is part of the consideration when deciding on the finances of a rail service and knowing that it can't be collected on the train must make it imperative that a swift and efficient alternative is available.

Journey time should be measured much more from the customer's viewpoint. In other words, the time should be from the latest practical time the passenger can arrive by his chosen means in the station area at the journey start to leaving the station at the journey end unfettered by remaining procedures.  Journey quality should look to providing minimum tensions, queues and discomfort and should maximise the time where the customer is free to have his own experience / do his own thing in as positive an environment as possible.

So in my measure of timing I might include ...
... allowing time to find a car / cycle parking space at the station and pay for it, or connecting time from bus arrival
... any ticket purchases possible at the station of departure, including queueing time
... queuing to gain access to platforms and also time to get from "gateline" to departure platform
... boarding train, where the doors of the train may close up to 120 seconds before departure
... journey time
... waiting for the doors to be opened once the train has arrived.
... time awaiting ongoing train connections, including wait for next train if a suggested connection fails
... time from arriving platform to station dateline on exit
... any queueing at gateline or at alternative ticket sales point in order to allow station exit
... time to collect onwards transport left at station and exit storage facility, or wait for bus

Queueing for up to 30 minutes to exit a station when you have had no prior opportunity to buy a ticket (that's the longest I have personally had to wait; a day on which ticket sales equipment at a station and on train had failed) is an unacceptable delay and logically, the speediest journey will be by selling on the train.   

Two thoughts on queue busting ...
1. Has anyone thought of putting simple TVMs onto Severn Beach line trains - lock-clamped to a pillar, with four buttons for single and return, adult and child, exact fare only, cash. 
2. How about a chap with a bucket and a book of paper tickets for the Severn Beach flat fares at the side gate at Temple Meads, opened for a few minutes when the peak trains come in (or a 1.50 / 2.00 turnstile ...)

We had ticket sales issued on the TransWilts the other week, resulting in a whole load of people having to queue to be sold tickets in order to leave Swindon station.   In some ways it's good to have to consider such issues as our passenger numbers are much higher than forecast, but surely there must be a better way.  Apparently, there's no backup facility to sell paper tickets any more ...

Some people are genuinely soul destroyed when you sell them their ^1.50 fare from Stapleton Road to Lawrence Hill that they've shuffled to the front to avoid.

A decent ATE and guard combo can usually do a pretty good job on those trains. We can't get everyone and I don't think we can be expected to either; we can only do our best .

Also more staff most of the time trains are running e.g. 23:30 at Eastcote barriers working!

However, I still say until there is a comprehensive census of passsenger number on the line it will be extremely difficult to find a viable solution.

A number have been mentioned in this thread but they are all kite flying without the figures.

Also any solutions which work for this line could be rolled out for other lines after a similar census.

As I said in my post with the picture of the queue, it's not untypical. My longest queueing time has been 20 minutes, leaving me just 3 minutes spare to catch a connection. The guards and ATEs do a fantastic job, but regularly having 30+ passengers needing to queue after alighting from inbound AM services is unacceptable. Those that should be doing better are the managers - in working to resolve the problem.

An update, from the Western Daily Press (http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/Passenger-upset-free-rail-travel/story-22799767-detail/story.html):

Nice quote there from FGW totally missing the point. This isn't about people choosing not to pay.  ::)

I saw this in Italy recently.  Tickets purchased at a tabbachi, hotel, transport office etc cost ^1.30.  In addition the buses, trains and trolleybuses had very basic ticket vending machines offering the same ticket for ^1.50 to encourage the purchase in advance.  Passengers then validate the ticket in a second machine to prevent re-use. Machines were very sturdy looking.

The system seemed to work well with most people having validated tickets when the inspectors boarded, except one or two who were issued with ^150 fines.

The problem of such a system on the Severn Beach Line is that dedicated rolling stock would be required.  Otherwise there could be situations where the units with the machines end up in Penzance or elsewhere.

I was thinking of a system in which they were portable machines / bolted on to the diagrammed trains each night, perhaps?   But I'm not really informed enough to know whether such a system would work ...

Problem is, the diagrammed units don't stay exclusively on the Severn Beach Line and then there's the semi-regular late replacement of a diagrammed unit. 

Something remarkable happened to me last Saturday: I took the kids to town (Montpelier to Temple Meads), and was able to buy my ticket on the train! This is the first time this has happened to me for months; even on very quiet trains there has been no sign of the guard. It was a joy this time to be able to simply leave Temple Meads without having to join the queue BNM has referred to.

On the way home we were early for the 18.03, so went to Bonaparte's for a pint and a J2O (split two ways; I'm not made of money!); when the Severn Beach train came in I watched and saw that all the passengers again passed straight out, implying that they'd been able to buy tickets on the train too.

Maybe someone's listening?

Taking an extremely simplistic view, there are two types of guards. Those that do bother to try and sell tickets and those who don't.  I appreciate that the short distance between stops on the Severn Beach line makes things difficult, but I'm basing my theory on observations between Nailsea and Bristol, where some guards just stay in the rear cab despite several people having boarded at Nailsea. I've seen a comment on the forum about a similar experience on the TransWilts service when again there is adequate time to check and sell tickets.

What I don't understand is how management don't have MI to spot this and take appropriate action. It can't be that difficult to work out an average take for a particular journey or roster and then challenge guards that consistently under-deliver. Of course, there will be significant variation from day to day, and adjustments would need to be made when there is a second person on board, but over a period someone producing half of the expected revenue should be easy to spot. Over a year the loss per guard could be substantial.




 

Severn Beach Line at busy times doesn't just have Conductors though. It also has an Assistant Ticket Examiner whose sole job is to sell tickets.

The services the ATEs cover have been steadily increasing and they are to be seen at weekends as well.

The major problem remains week day AM peak inbound. Even with an ATE and Conductor, in full ticket selling mode, not everyone can be sold a ticket, leaving upwards of two dozen people queueing at the gateline.

A lesser issue, but still significant in terms of lost revenue I suspect, is quieter services with just a Conductor aboard, either not selling, or not getting to everyone making shorter intermediate journeys. Even here I've noticed much more improvement with Conductors doing their level best to sell to/check as many passengers as possible. However, it has to be remembered that a Conductor's revenue duties come after; safety of the train, safety of passengers, safety of themselves, timekeeping, door operation and despatch.

This reminds me of what I believe is known as 'dipping' on the buses, whereby a driver deliberately catches up with the bus in front so that it takes all waiting passengers and thus its driver (and the driver of the bus behind) does all the work. I understand that this is considered a serious disciplinary matter.

In the case of pay trains, isn't the guard doing something similar by passing the work on to the platform staff? Do they belong to different unions?

I feel I have to make it clear that this isn't, as far as I'm concerned, an issue of on train staff not selling tickets.

On the Severn Beach Line I see almost nothing but their best efforts in getting to as many people as possible.

It's the sheer number of passengers using the line now, at least a 100%+ increase since First took over from Wessex, that is the issue. And 100%+ is being generous. Clifton Down station has seen annual passenger usage increase from 153,000 in 2005/06 to 522,000 in 2012/13. That's a near 350% increase.

The onboard staff can only do so much. It's their bosses who need to be looking at ways to ensure everyone pays for their journey. And looking at ways to stop the absurdity of having to queue for upwards of 20 minutes at Bristol Temple Meads to pay their fare so as to be able to exit the station or continue their journey.

If I was a semi regular traveller (for whom a Season wouldn't be worthwhile) needing to get to a location between Lawrence Hill and Bristol TM, I know where I'd be alighting...

I'm not advocating fare dodging, but say you need to get, a couple of times a week, from your home near Clifton Down to a location equidistant between Lawrence Hill and Bristol TM. You have the bus option at ^3 or ^4 per round trip, or the train option at ^2 per return journey. However, if you take the train option and have learnt through experience that you may be queueing for sometime at Bristol TM versus alighting at Lawrence Hill and not having had the opportunity to pay, what would you do? Even if you have to pay on your journey home on the train, you'll only be paying ^1.50, unless you are unconscionably honest and say you need a Return to include your morning journey.

I know someone living near Clifton Down station for whom this is just such a scenario. Doesn't need a Season ticket due to irregular travel patterns, but does occasionally need to be in a location between Bristol TM and Lawrence Hill. Needless to say, if given the opportunity to buy on board, he'll travel to Bristol TM. If not, he'll alight at Lawrence Hill.

That may be the case, but in my experience there are train staff who do stay in the rear cab when they could be in a more passenger facing and revenue positive role. The Severn Beach line is difficult given the frequency of the stops, but they do it on other lines where there is a clear period between station stops.

Being slightly pedantic, it's a near 250% increase, but that doesn't take away from the remarkable growth. I do hope the 4 tracking enables a half hourly service to be introduced in the next few years. With more office space currently being constructed in the Temple Quay locality, and more positive signs as to redevelopment of the old diesel depot site, demand will only grow, given an adequate service and capacity.

An update, from the Bristol Post (http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Reader-s-letter-know-true-picture-rail-travel/story-22831557-detail/story.html):

Wonder what the difference is between the Council's figures and the DfT's. Presumably it could be said to be the number travelling free!

Oyster Cards seem to work pretty well in London. I wonder in the long term if there could be some sort of equivalent introduced in the Bristol area?

Oyster is dead and eventually TfL will phase it out. I do believe that TfL have to pay a fee to CTS for running the oyster system (very very small). Why have a system where a customer uses visa/mc to top up an oystercard when you can just tap the visa/mc card directly on the gates and bypass an additional step. Cheaper to process en mass at the end of the day rather then lots of individual transactions at different stations with different merchant codes.

DfT want ITSO on all franchises eventually. (Read eventually as sometime in the future when its not our problem and we dont have to worry as its someone else's issue.)

SN/LM have "the Key". (Which works on some Go-Ahead buses)
SWT/EMT have "Stagecoach Smart". (which works on SC buses)
FSR have ScotRail Smart. (Which apparently is planned to work on SPT buses)
MiseryRail have Walrus card.

Crikey - no wonder you're a Hero Member!

One of the reasons Oyster became so successful was because the "cash fare" was increased considerably at the same time.  So people had to switch to Oyster in order to get the lower fare.

Something that TOCs won't be able to do with regulated fares.

I agree with the general consensus of the thread here. It is wrong to force a passenger to queue for 20 minutes+ (that is also being generous) when no previous opportunity existed beforehand.

There is a small trick that works, that by buying the ticket on the FGW App before travel or during travel. I have often found that by showing this to gateline staff and saying I need to collect, they'll let you out. I often do this where BRI is my interchange station and Frome's Ticket Machine is down. I would have no problem bringing the ticket back to the gateline for them to dispose of to show I was being honest.

There have sadly been occasions where I have arrived at BRI gateline and requested the purchase of a ticket and been told NO but then they open the barrier and gesture you toward it to leave ::)

It's a real sorry state of affairs actually, because as a passenger who makes mostly every effort to buy a ticket before travelling. When you come across those occasions where pre-purchasing is near to impossible or impractical and you receive the special RPI treatment. It really sucks.

For an idea a recent experience I had on ticketless travel. I recently had the pleasure of travelling on Southeastern Trains. I had started the journey from a penalty fares station but no facility existed.

When I arrived at an interchange station I discovered that ticket checks were being made on the platforms as opposed to the generic exit. A queue quickly formed and I was worried about missing my connection. So I decided to walk around it to explain I had no ticket, no oppertunity to buy one and that my connection was "Over there and leaving in 11 mintues" I then get told "Back in line, you've committed an offence!" blood boiled very quickly and I quoted NRCoC and was rudely interrupted and told I had committed travel fraud. Jokingly and perhaps foolishly I retorted "add it to the charge list then. I spilt coffee on the train, that comes under Soiling the railway in the NRCoC surely? and don't get me started on where the toilet waste goes!" The RPI then said, back of the line or I'll get the BTP to sort you out. I told them to do so because I wasn't going to tolerate being accused of travel fraud if I couldn't by a ticket in the bloody first place.

The RPI was taken aback by this, and said don't get smart because BTP are over there. Again I told them to carry on and I wasn't getting smart, I was already being smart. BTP were summoned over and I started explaining before the RPI could get a word in. Also quoted the relevant legislation in terms of ticketless travel. The RPI was visibly very angry now to which point she said I was using threatening behavior and was acting in a nervous and suspicious manner. At which point another passenger who boarded at the same station as I had, piped in and said "Excuse me, he has done nothing of the sort. Yes he looks a bit nervous but he's been like that ever since I saw him at the starting station"

BTP decided to take me to one side away from the RPIs. The copper then said, if anyone asks you said you needed to use the toilet and then I was distracted by a colleague and you sneaked onto that train over there. But of course I will deny any knowledge of that being the case and winked at me. I made that connection by 3 minutes. I wonder how many people would just accept it and missed the connection I wonder?

Ticketless travel that is the fault of the operators is a very ugly and difficult topic riddled with grey areas. Many won't argue. I can be extremely argumentative when I am portrayed to have done something wrong when that is simply not the case. In other words, I don't like being told I've done something wrong when I know for a clear fact that, that is not true :)

Im also sure the Passengers Charter (in whatever form it may be called now days) also states you shouldn't have to queue for more then 4mins off peak or 8mins peak to purchase a ticket.

And this is something I have a big problem with. Because there is nothing that I can think of, that governs when a customer exceeds the charter set wait time and decides to start the journey ticketless that protects them. Trowbridge is an excellent example. Frequently closes early, understaffed etc. You then have the old lady infront of you in the queue who spends 30 minutes sorting through all the available tickets with the clerk only to decide she'll take the Off Peak Return anyway ::) I'll wait for 5 maybe 10 minutes in a queue. But if I arrive at the station at 10:05 wanting the 10:18 train and can't a ticket, then I will get on that 10:18 because to wait till the 10:44 just to have that ticket is unreasonable when that has been caused my another customer.

Of course there is the UTCCR. But it's a weak argument when you have no ticket so a contract doesn't technically or formally exist.

There is also the problem of the RPIs who say "You should have arrived at the station earlier" which from my point of view completely sidesteps the fundamentally basic issue here. It then becomes your word against theres and we all know where that one can go. If you arrive at a station 15 minutes before the train, is it really reasonable to say you should have arrived even earlier? Personally I don't think it is. It is also unreasonable in my opinion to cause a customer to miss a connection as they need to queue at a blockade etc. Specifcally more so at in the evening when the last train of the day could be a connection further into the journey (and yes I've had that problem before also. First Capital Connect will tell you it's not their problem!)

Finally, it's fair to say that there is a very big difference between what a customer shouldn't have to do, versus what they are expected to do or can actually do...

It's such a muddled system that really makes no sense to anyone. Just look at FGWs take on NRCoC Condition 12 for example... 2 sets of rules that contradict each other and FGW take the option the penalises the passenger even more! And when questioned on it, can't even be bothered to give the feedback from the manager...

Ok that might be rather harsh. But it's been nearly 3 weeks without a final response to that issue and I've now taken it further. FGW also promised a response within 5 days to an email I sent. That was over a month ago and I'd quite like my ^118.80 Travel Voucher today please :)

So clearly FGW fail that almost every single day!!

This is fundamentally the lack of a customer service attitude in the railway.

Railway staff seem to be very focussed on criminalising fare dodgers, but until they can fundamentally understand the reasonable expectations of their customers they just alienate the honest traveller.

If they cannot provide a means for customers to buy a ticket in a reasonable time they should have not rights of prosecution without hard evidence of a deliberate evasion. This means not use of penalty fares.

If you want to be able to prosecute then provide the service. Period!

If you will not provide the service then you have to put up with reduced ability to prosecute.

I know many rail revenue protection staff will take this very badly, but until their management provide the service it is their management that are letting them down not the passengers.