Great Western Coffee Shop

My question relates to the difference in price between an annual season ticket to Paddington, and the additional TFL 1-6 travelcard.  Specifically the cost of the TFL 1-6 addition between TOC's.

For example:

Maidenhead to Paddington = ^2840
Maidenhead to Paddington + TFL 1-6 = ^3604
Difference in price = ^764

Watford Junction to Euston = ^2852
Watford Junction to Euston + TFL 1-6 = ^3268
Difference in price = ^416

It doesn't even work out on a % basis where FGW charges 21% extra and the Watford line = 13%.
The same variations apply when looking at Southeast Train to London Bridge and Southwest trains to Waterloo.

Last time I checked I was travelling in the same tube trains as my esteemed Watford commuters, and in fact can travel LESS as they have zones 7-9 included too, so why am I paying ^350 more?

Thanks

Start from Tring or Milton Keynes and the difference is ^900.

The variation is immense.  Completely confused by this.

Why would anyone pay more than TfLs own Z1-6 Travelcard on Oyster?

Then buy your Z1-6 on Oyster & a point-to-point season.....

That would be ^2288.

Watford Junction probably comes out anomalously low because it is actually a TfL zone all of its own, although this doesn't explain the variations of the others. Now speculate on the impact of Crossrail on all of this ....

Extra zones, definitely. That'll be interesting to see where the boundaries are.

Guildford to London difference is ^784.

Whilst I was looking at that I noticed a Guildford to London Terminals via Reading annual season is ^4 cheaper than a Reading to London Terminals!

ooo, cue a rush of Reading commuters getting extra value!

What Reading commuters do not realise is there is a wonderful bl**dy annoying Easement which can cut the difference for a Reading-London Terminals season ticket by a lot.

7DS 102.60
PSS 1 Month 392.50
PSS 12 Months 4,088.00

Using said easement.
7DS 90.50
PSS 1 Month 347.60
PSS 12 Month 3,620.00

That is all...

I believe I have found it, but also if you look around that easement it should be possible to do it for 3,508.00.

I am not sure I'd want to try it out though as a "St Albans" situation would probably soon arise.

Unsure if we're talking about the same easement, (I think it wise they're not publicised - but I'll share details privately, unless you work for FGW/ATOC!  :P) but the prices I get for a Season valid into Paddington are:

7 Days ^87.70   
1 Month ^336.80   
12 Months ^3,508.00

That is identical  ;)

I agree about not identifying it specifically (as SDS probably intended as well). As with the St Albans case, as soon at ATOC get wind of it the drawbridge is pulled up. There may be commuters out there already taking advantage.

It occurs to me that even with just the prices it may be possible to deduce the easement and thus could see ATOC et al giving some scrutiny.

Best all round if we return to the OP's original issue - the price disparity between outboundary Season Tickets that have Zones 1-6 Travelcard validity.

It does seem perverse that there are such wide ranging price differences. A standalone Zones 1-6 Travelcard is a fixed price. That fixed price should simply be added to the Anytown to London Terminals Season.

That then become problematical if you want to make make intermediate journeys on the line of route of your point to point season at a National Rail station which has TFL interchange in the zones. No problem with a paper Anytown to Zones 1-6 Season. Big problem with a combination of Anytown - London Terminals paper Season and a separate Zones 1-6 Season loaded on Oyster. After that change you touch out at your final Zones 1-6 station, but you've not previously touched in. And you can't touch in at the interchange station without previously touching out. Either way you have, at best, a maximum fare 'incomplete journey' charge on your Oyster. At worst you encounter TFL revenue bods and have some explaining to do to avoid an ^80 Penalty Fare.

You simply remember to touch *in* when you (inter)change, surely?

Forgive me. Over tired.

Of course you just use the paper Season to exit at the interchange and re-enter with Oyster. I'm guilty of over analysing.

Really should have started that afternoon kip by now.

So I asked FGW about this issue.  My question to FGW was fairly unambigiuous - "why do FGW charge more than other operators for the same service?"

On Saturday I received a two-page letter explaining:
- Government policy on regulated fares
- The role of inflation in fare determination
- Calculation method for FGW season tickets
- Calculation method for FGW travelcards
- Ticket to usage attribution by %
- Statements around 'the fare increases' (?) being government controlled

... and finishing with an apology for the fact that I (apparently) felt that prices were "unjust and unfair".


At no point in the reply was the pricing relative to other TOC's mentioned.  I aimagine that I've received a stock 'its August so everyone mentioning tickets must be moaning about the increase' letter.

Pretty poor all round.  I'll try again....

The piece on "Calculation method for FGW Travelcards" might be worth copying 'n pasting here....

Sure thing:

"Season ticket prices are generated by the fare of a single ticket from the origin to London Zones 1-6, added to the fare of a single ticket from the destination station to London Zones 1-6.  The 7-day travelcard fare for London Zones 1-6 is then deducted, which leaves the 7 day fare and weekly season ticket price.  To generate annual prices, this number is then multiplied by the season ticket period factors relevant to the length of the ticket.

In your case, a single ticket from Maidenhead to London Zones 1-6 is ^90.10, and a season ticket from London Paddington to London Zones 1-6 is ^57.20.  These figures added together make ^147.30, the 7-day travelcard fare for London Zones 1-6 is then taken away which is ^57.20, which leaves the weekly ticket price for your ticket at ^90.10.  This figure is then multiplied by 40 to create the figure for an annual season ticket, which is ^3604.  I am very sorry you feel this price is unjust and unfair."

So... if my english and maths skills are up to the job.  I make that a fascinating (x+y)-y=x.   ;D

If someone else wants a bash at explaining this then I'm all ears!  :D

Your maths is dead right! I shall raise this with FGWs Fare Implementation Manager.....crazy

If you can an answer to my original question too then that would be great   ;D

indeed....

They seem to be treating London Zones 1-6 as a point-to-point destination in its own right which does not really work (aside from the warped logic).

The Zones 1-6 part should be ^57.20 for a weekly season. It is the premium that is loaded on from the outboundary station to the zone 6 boundary which is the issue they have not addressed.

So I resent my question to FGW, asking them to look again at what I'd asked them.  Their response arrived yesterday and they are either being obtuse or very slow in reaching their destination...

"I am sorry that you don't feel we have adequately addressed your concerns.

We do not set the pricing for the underground and this is an add on to the fare for the journey on our services.  I am sorry you are unhappy about the difference in cost, however as the journeys are different, we cannot compare their cost."

Arrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh   ???

Resend yet again, explaining & detailing the different add-on from at least two stations, and ask why, seeing at they agree it is a TfL standard priced add-on, yet FGW are adding different amounts on to their fare....

So I received a response from Passenger Focus today...  I get the impression that this fell in to the 'too complex' bin.

Thank you for your email regarding your complaint with First Great Western. I^m sorry to hear of the price differences you have found with your Season tickets to London. I can certainly appreciate the confusion this has caused you.

We are aware that Season tickets to London Termini and to Zones 1-6 can vary across the different train companies. Unfortunately, we^re not party to the charging agreement set between the various train companies and Transport for London. However we are concerned that these prices can vary quite markedly.

We have questioned whether standardisation would resolve this and how this would be implemented. However, if we were able to persuade the industry to standardise this add-on, it could lead to increases in fares to as many passengers as would benefit from a lower fare. We do feel that these add-ons should be more uniform as, afterall, passengers are all travelling on the same Underground services.

I can see from your correspondence that First Great Western have not directly addressed this issue in the correspondence with you and so I have contacted them to ask that they now do this, and copy me in to their response. I trust that you will hear from them shortly with a more substantial explanation. As this agreement is set between them and Transport for London, it may also be worth contacting TfL directly to gain their comments on this issue.

We are, at present, not taking further action to standardise the add-on. Nevertheless I have logged your comments accordingly so that these will be used to identify trends. Should we receive further complaints and opposition about the add-on differences, we will use your feedback to support further investigations.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Petition time?....

?

My emphasis....

Ahhhhh - got you.

Maybe others would like to prod...   ;)

So I received a more thoughtful response from FGW today.  Basically nothing is going to change and its not just TOC vs TOC differences, but even internally to FGW which I hadn't even considered!! :

"I am writing further to contact you recently made with Passenger Focus, I am sorry that it has taken some time to get back to you. I have been in discussion with our fares department, regarding your concerns of the differences in cost for underground travel.

The pricing of many of these fares is determined by historic fares regulation, which varied the level of permitted increases by Train Operating Companies for London commuter operators, based on train service performance (the 'FIAP' (Fares Incentive Adjustment Payment) regime, which lasted until 2004). This has led to inconsistencies between the fare charged to 'London Terminals' and the fare charged to 'London Travel card'.  The result of this is that the add-on fare is not consistent through our own network, or with any other company issuing tickets to the same two stations.

We aspire to harmonise the add-on from our own stations, however this is constrained by Fares Regulation (as some would need to go up and some down), and would mean that some fares would need to be significantly increased in order to reduce the difference. This is not something we can look to do given the wider implications of this, but we hope that gradual review of the fares will help somewhat.

Thank you once again for contacting us."

Nothing internally...

That response is saying that the flex allowed within the RPI+x% model has wantonly been applied to Travelcard season prices as to London Terminals seasons, without thinking that it would create a differential in the add-on applied to create a Travelcard season from the equivalent Terminals season....

Crazy.

Suggest you go back to Passenger (soon to be Transport) Focus and ask for their help in lobbying the DgT in allowing the TOCs to once again standardise the Travelcard add-on to whatever cost TfL are charging for it, without making additional profit. A ToC can't get the DfT to allow on their own, will need some external lobbying