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Title: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: grahame on August 03, 2014, 07:20:49 I'm looking to sort out a validity issue on senior railcards.
Background data From: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr7bb7e80a040002001b255638df2424.aspx Quote Please visit the Senior Railcard website for more information or click here to buy now. Which tells us: From:http://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/eligibility-benefits/tickets-travel-times/ Quote A Railcard will give you 1/3 off the price of the following ticket types: Standard and First Class Anytime and Anytime Day Singles and Returns Standard and First Class Off-Peak and Off-Peak Day Singles and Returns Standard and First Class Super Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak Day Singles and Returns Standard and First Class Advance* Most Rail Rovers Gatwick Express, Stansted Express, Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect services Oyster Off-Peak pay as you go Daily Price Cap and Off-Peak pay as you go single fares for journeys on National Rail, London Underground and Docklands Light Railway. Find out more about Railcard discounts with Oyster Off-Peak Day Travelcard Zones 1-6 (subject to a minimum fare of ^5.90) Some ticket types offered by individual train companies. Please enquire locally for details Anytime Day Travelcard Zones 1-6 when bought as part of ticket to London from outside London (Subject to minimum fare of ^17.00) Through tickets for travel on the Railair link between Reading and Heathrow Airport PLUSBUS - unlimited bus travel at your origin / destination station on participating operators. Visit www.plusbus.info or your local staffed station for further details Some rail/sea journeys with Wightlink, Red Funnel Ferries and Stena Line * These tickets need to be booked before you travel. Time restrictions The Railcard discount isn^t available on tickets for travel during the morning rush hour (peak time), Monday to Friday (excluding Public Holidays) for journeys made wholly within the London and South East area. The times of morning off-peak services do vary by route and are normally related to the availability of Off-Peak Day tickets. It's best to check with ticket office staff before buying your tickets. The journey to be made is a day return trip at peak times, Melksham to London. Traveller happy to be resticted to trains that stop at Didcot. 1. Walk up fare - 157.00 return - OK 2. that discounts to 104.70 - OK as the journey is not wholly within the London and South East Zone 3. Anytime single, Melksham to Didcot. Anytime day return Didcot to Paddington. Off peak single Didcot to Melksham, total 95.80 - OK 4. that discounts to 63.90 - OK as the journey being made isn't wholly within the London and South East area. (one of the tickets might be, but the condition applies to the journey as a whole). Where the senior discount might not apply is if a break of journey was made in the morning at Didcot, and it could then be argued that it was two separate journeys. Have I read this right? Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: JayMac on August 03, 2014, 09:13:13 "One of the tickets might be, but the condition applies to the journey as a whole"
Is the sort of interpretation of the terms & conditions that I'd take as it is more favourable to the passenger. I doubt very much though that it is the interpretation that the Train Operating Companies intended. Have the arguments well rehearsed and be prepared for an MG11 or TIR should a RPI be encountered. Also, what time is the return journey from Paddington? if it's outside the peak or not on one of the barred trains then it'll be cheaper again to buy an Anytime Day Single Didcot-London Terminals and and Off Peak Day Single London Terminals-Didcot. Finally, the last ticket Didcot-Melksham need only be a Super Off Peak Single. Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: TaplowGreen on August 03, 2014, 09:48:51 ..........I've only just got up off the floor......^157 for a day return from Melksham to London?.....Really? That's astronomical! It's not even a direct service! :o
Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: grahame on August 03, 2014, 09:53:53 ..........I've only just got up off the floor......^157 for a day return from Melksham to London?.....Really? That's astronomical! It's not even a direct service! :o Technically, it's a period return not a day return as there are no day returns. That's one on the reasons that splitting into two day return sections is so cost effective. Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: ChrisB on August 03, 2014, 12:01:34 "One of the tickets might be, but the condition applies to the journey as a whole" Is the sort of interpretation of the terms & conditions that I'd take as it is more favourable to the passenger. I doubt very much though that it is the interpretation that the Train Operating Companies intended. Have the arguments well rehearsed and be prepared for an MG11 or TIR should a RPI be encountered. Agreed. That interpretation is likely to be tested at court, so be prepared. And no, you won't win your legal fees if you win....well, unlikely Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: grahame on August 03, 2014, 12:52:03 "One of the tickets might be, but the condition applies to the journey as a whole" Is the sort of interpretation of the terms & conditions that I'd take as it is more favourable to the passenger. I doubt very much though that it is the interpretation that the Train Operating Companies intended. Have the arguments well rehearsed and be prepared for an MG11 or TIR should a RPI be encountered. Agreed. That interpretation is likely to be tested at court, so be prepared. And no, you won't win your legal fees if you win....well, unlikely Well - it very clearly used the word JOURNEY not TICKET, so it's pretty clear to me that multiple tickets one of which happens to be wholly within London and the South East are all valid for the discount as that's worked out by journey. However ... you two learned and experienced gentlemen are both suggesting that the rules may be seen differently by rail staff met along the way, to the extent that they could get rather nasty about it ... so I'm not going to suggest to anyone that he / she looks to travel this way, even though I believe that the rules as written (even if not as intended) allow it, and even though a fee has already been paid up front in order to obtain a discount at the time of purchasing individual tickets. Also, what time is the return journey from Paddington? if it's outside the peak or not on one of the barred trains then it'll be cheaper again to buy an Anytime Day Single Didcot-London Terminals and and Off Peak Day Single London Terminals-Didcot. Finally, the last ticket Didcot-Melksham need only be a Super Off Peak Single. Yes, noted the "super off-peak" ... my error. Plan was not to get into the complexity off peak day singles and where they are and aren't valid out from Paddington. Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: JayMac on August 03, 2014, 12:57:53 I'd contend that it's unlikely such a disagreement on a contractual term is would ever see the inside of a court. A ruling on the interpretation of the terms and conditions could be unfavourable to the Train Operating Companies. Not something for which they'd want a precedent set, or a persuasive argument made.
Doesn't stop life being made difficult by rail staff at the time of the journey, or a train company after the fact if they instigate an investigation. Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: ChrisB on August 03, 2014, 14:12:14 ATOC would just reissue the T&Cs....I still think you would likely be bringing yourself a whole load of aggro trying that on.....
Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: grahame on August 03, 2014, 14:17:20 I'm not in the game of "trying anything on" ... rather looking to understand the rules, which at times I find complex and confusing.
I have received two fairly strong messages that suggest that whilst my reading might be correct, it may not be what's intended by the condition. Thanks for letting me know that to test it might cause a degree of aggro; I'm not going to walk into such a situation or recommend that anyone else does. It's a pragmatic approach - better things to do ... Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: ChrisB on August 03, 2014, 14:34:19 I realise *you* probably aren't - but a lot of others read this & it's sensible to warn them off too. They might be less 'in-the-know' about rail that some of us
Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: eightf48544 on August 04, 2014, 10:48:35 Whilst I agree it's probably not wise to try an test ambiguos T&Cs for rail travel, I wonder how many people are put off rail travel by these ambiguities.
They are constantly reading of passengers being "fined" for getting on the wrong train or breaking a journey on teh wrong type of ticket etc. etc. It's just one more example of how absurb the curent fare structure and it's associated T&Cs have become. I remember hearing or reading (bignsoemac?) a few years ago that were over 4000 individual restrictions on which ticket you can use on which train in the then current. I wonder what that figure is today? Also peak restrictions are a mess one I recall was Aberdeen which seemed to a half hour peak at around 17:00 which as far as I can see covered one train! Oh for a Minister of Transport who has the courage to tell aTOC to sort it out! I'd give them 3 months if they don't come up with the goods, impose an overall compulsary 10% discount on every ticket purchased. That should concentrate minds! Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: ChrisB on August 04, 2014, 10:52:31 An email to ATOC pointing out the anomaly may well work too
Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: SDS on August 04, 2014, 10:58:46 An email to ATOC pointing out the anomaly may well work too Doubt it. ATOC would send the equivalent of a "Mind your own, we know what were doing" Email. We all know ATOC dislike dealing with passengers at the best of time. Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: ChrisB on August 04, 2014, 11:08:30 you'd be surprised....I know just the person
Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: grahame on August 04, 2014, 11:32:22 I remember hearing or reading (bignsoemac?) a few years ago that were over 4000 individual restrictions on which ticket you can use on which train in the then current. I wonder what that figure is today? Also peak restrictions are a mess one I recall was Aberdeen which seemed to a half hour peak at around 17:00 which as far as I can see covered one train! It's wonderful what you can find - err - published online. This from the CDS restrictions on a Paddington to Didcot ticket. Looks like a painful and complicated way of allowing all trains except the ones at certain specific times. Quote UNPUBLISHED RESTRICTIONS Intended for use by computerised journey planners and online booking systems. To determine whether a journey is permitted, the time restrictions shown below are applied to: The origin and destination of the journey All locations where a passenger changes trains during a journey The final destination of all trains travelled on during a journey (whether or not the passenger is travelling to that final destination) Note that these data can not be used to determine time restrictions when breaking and resuming a journey at an intermediate station. Restriction Code: J9 OFF PEAK DAY FOR GWR This restriction code does not apply on the following dates/days: From Until Eased on these days: Sun 18 May 2014 Sun 25 May 2014 Su Sa Mon 26 May 2014 Sun 1 Jun 2014 Su Mo Sa Mon 2 Jun 2014 Sun 24 Aug 2014 Su Sa Mon 25 Aug 2014 Sun 31 Aug 2014 Su Mo Sa Mon 1 Sep 2014 Sat 6 Sep 2014 Su Sa Outward Journey Summary: NOT VALID BEFORE 0920 MON-FRI Time Restrictions Restriction(s) below apply every day Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 0230^0919 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1600^1601 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1606^1607 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1615^1616 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1630^1631 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1633^1637 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1645^1646 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1649^1650 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1700^1701 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1703^1704 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1715^1716 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1722^1723 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1730^1731 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1733^1734 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1742^1743 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1745^1746 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1749^1750 on any TOC Note - this carries on and so the list above is not complete restriction list! Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: eightf48544 on August 05, 2014, 08:34:34 Graham:
The mind boggles! ??? Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1600^1601 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1606^1607 on any TOC I've had a thought What happens if you get on train due to depart Padd between 16:00-16:01 at 16:03 and it doesn't leave until 16:05? Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: SDS on August 05, 2014, 23:30:44 Graham: The mind boggles! ??? Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1600^1601 on any TOC Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1606^1607 on any TOC I've had a thought What happens if you get on train due to depart Padd between 16:00-16:01 at 16:03 and it doesn't leave until 16:05? The timetabled time applies. Even if the train is 29mins late (heh no delay repay for you!) then the original restriction still applies. Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: eightf48544 on August 06, 2014, 10:33:43 The timetabled time applies. Even if the train is 29mins late (heh no delay repay for you!) then the original restriction still applies. Yep par for the course the TOC always wins. Has anyone heard how the Swiss Railways are getting on with their proposed new compensation scheme based I think on the number of people delayed? Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: grahame on August 18, 2014, 15:21:11 I asked the original question to the FGW team via the web site ... answer:
Quote I note that you wish t travel between Melksham and London Paddington in September and also hold a Senior Railcard. I also note that you want a reasonable ticket for your journey. I can suggest you to purchase advanced tickets using the Railcard. AP tickets are offered at a massively discounted price compared to the cost of more flexible ticket options and because of this they're extremely popular and can sell out very quickly. They can be purchased from a range of retail outlets including telesales, online, stations and ticket vending machines and this means that we can never accurately advise a customer of how many are left. Therefore I request you to contact our Telesales Department on 03457 000 125. We also offer ticket sales online via our website www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk, where you can create an account by following the 'Buy Tickets' link on our home page. Because this didn't answer my question (at least to my understanding it didn't), and indeed suggested an alternative which wouldn't have the flexibility I wanted and actually cost more for a sample date later this week, I called to ask. And it seems that it is the journey and not the ticket it applies to, from having spoken with an advisor who's name I know, and with a case reference, I now feel I can join the train and buy my discounted journey tickets with a split. But, yes, I will take a note of the correspondence and printout of the railcard website in case it's queried. Title: Re: Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area Post by: ChrisB on August 18, 2014, 15:29:21 Quote I can suggest you to purchase advanced tickets using the Railcard. Well, that was proofed before sending, not. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |