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Title: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: LiskeardRich on August 01, 2014, 20:30:35 This morning I bought my ticket as per the rules at the ticket office. I was told I couldn't use my railcard before 9am. Fair enough and correct by the rules.
The gent who sat next to me failed to buy a ticket at the ticket office. He presented the same local railcard I hold and I was declined to use at the ticket office. The TM/Guard/conductor* (*Delete as applicable) gave the gent his railcard discount when selling his ticket onboard. This is a clear case of treating customers unequally. Also getting a discount by failing to buy before you board. I was obviously less than happy that he was given the discount, He had same origin and same destination as me. I feel at a disadvantage for following the rules and buying before I board. It isn't a penalty fare area, however I don't agree that someone who failed to buy before he boarded should get a railcard discount where the opportunity existed, let alone when it is prior to the earliest time where the railcard can be used. There was no queue at the ticket office. Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: ChrisB on August 02, 2014, 09:03:36 You should have quietly taken it up ewith the member of staff onboard & queried why he got a discount while you couldn't...and then queried same with FGW customer services.
That member of staff obviously needs 'refreshing'.... Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: trainbuff on August 02, 2014, 10:50:13 Is this railcard a Devon and Cornwall Railcard? If so it can be used Off-Peak. For example. Totnes-Exeter after 08.33 a Saver return (Off Peak R) is valid. But a cheap day return (Off Peak Day R)is not due to the restriction on the ticket type! It is a bit of a minefield but the person in the Ticket office should have offered you the cheapest available ticket. However, people do make mistakes. We all do. May be worth sending an email to that effect to Great Western but saying that you were out of pocket. You never know they may offer a refund.
Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: LiskeardRich on August 02, 2014, 15:03:53 Is this railcard a Devon and Cornwall Railcard? If so it can be used Off-Peak. For example. Totnes-Exeter after 08.33 a Saver return (Off Peak R) is valid. But a cheap day return (Off Peak Day R)is not due to the restriction on the ticket type! It is a bit of a minefield but the person in the Ticket office should have offered you the cheapest available ticket. However, people do make mistakes. We all do. May be worth sending an email to that effect to Great Western but saying that you were out of pocket. You never know they may offer a refund. It is a Cornwall and Devon, as did the fellow traveller. The first Eastbound service for it to be valid from Redruth is the 0913. I was charged correctly. The train was not FGW. I was travelling 4 days this week so a 7DS was cheapest for me, however as I was only travelling 4 days had I been sold the railcard discounted ticket as my fellow traveller was offered 4 x daily railcard discounted returns would have been cheaper. Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: JayMac on August 02, 2014, 18:04:10 It is a Cornwall and Devon, as did the fellow traveller. The first Eastbound service for it to be valid from Redruth is the 0913. I was charged correctly. The train was not FGW. I'm slightly confused here. The 0913 is a FGW service, being the 0844 from Penzance to London Paddington. Also the Devon & Cornwall Railcard should be valid on the 0852 as well, from Redruth as far as Tiverton Parkway, but only if purchasing the Off Peak Single/Return (SVS/SVR). Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: LiskeardRich on August 02, 2014, 18:15:38 It is a Cornwall and Devon, as did the fellow traveller. The first Eastbound service for it to be valid from Redruth is the 0913. I was charged correctly. The train was not FGW. I'm slightly confused here. The 0913 is a FGW service, being the 0844 from Penzance to London Paddington. Also the Devon & Cornwall Railcard should be valid on the 0852 as well, from Redruth as far as Tiverton Parkway, but only if purchasing the Off Peak Single/Return (SVS/SVR). The ticket office told me I could not purchase any ticket with the D & C Railcard that would be valid on the 0852. Trying out online ticket sites, all concur that no ticket with D & C railcard is valid on the 0852. There is no SVS/SVR available for the journey in question. The other traveller was making the same journey. Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: bobm on August 02, 2014, 18:21:30 It seems you can get an off peak day single or return with the railcard discount on line for the 08:52 if you are going from Redruth to Tiverton Parkway - but not from Redruth to Truro. ???
Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: LiskeardRich on August 02, 2014, 18:23:54 It seems you can get an off peak day single or return with the railcard discount on line for the 08:52 if you are going from Redruth to Tiverton Parkway - but not from Redruth to Truro. ??? I've just played around, the discount is also available on Redruth to st. Austell but not Redruth to Truro. Only fares between Redruth and Truro are anytime return and off peak day return. The latter is not valid on the 0852, the earlier not compatible with D&C railcard discount. I may ask email or tweet XC and query their view on the 0852. *** edit *** I've just emailed cross country for clarification on acceptance of D&C railcard on the 0852 from Redruth to Truro cc-ing fgw into the email. Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: JayMac on August 02, 2014, 21:50:09 An attempt to clarify.
In response to richwarwicker saying that the first train eastbound from Redruth on which the Devon & Cornwall Railcard can be used was the 0913, I pointed out that it can be used on the 0852 to discount fares on journeys as far as Tiverton Parkway where there is an Off Peak Single/Return (SVS/SVR) fare available. That, as has been discovered, does not apply to Redruth-Truro as there is only an Off Peak Day Single/Return (CDS/CDR) for that flow which can be discounted by the D&C Railcard. The SVS/SVR and CDS/CDR have different time restrictions. For the SVS/SVR on flows within Devon & Cornwall it's generally any train after 0833, although there are some exceptions. Menheniot, Saltash and Ivybridge it's any train after 0810. St Germans is any train after 0815. For the CDS/CDR it all depends on origin, destination and direction of the single or outward journey. For example Redruth to Tiverton Parkway it is any train after 0840, but the other direction, Tiverton to Redruth it is after 0900. For Redruth to Truro the CDS/CDR is valid after 0900. For Truro to Redruth it is after 0910. If the ticket office at Redruth is telling passengers they cannot use a D&C Railcard at all before 0900 they are wrong. It depends totally on the destination, the ticket type and that ticket types' restrictions. And that's before you even look at a timetable. Confusing innit? (I fully expect Chris from Nailsea to be along shortly with his Mornington Crescent analogy) :P ;) ;D Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: LiskeardRich on August 02, 2014, 22:17:58 I was refused it recently on the 0852 travelling to Plymouth, the 0913 was cancelled that day so I couldn't justify waiting for the next service as time I got there would have been too late. As I was declined to use my railcard I didn't travel as ^40 for two of us was deemed too expensive for us. It's ^12 and some pence with the railcard.
I should of been offered off peak return at ^12.35 each, however they would only offer me the anytime return at ^19.90 each. We know my opinion on Redruth station and their customer service skills already from another post in the frequent posters area. Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: LiskeardRich on August 04, 2014, 21:54:49 Cross country customer relations sent me an email reply today saying they've referred my question to the revenue manager for clarity. I was expecting a straight forward no the TM is incorrect.
Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: TaplowGreen on August 05, 2014, 06:08:34 I was refused it recently on the 0852 travelling to Plymouth, the 0913 was cancelled that day so I couldn't justify waiting for the next service as time I got there would have been too late. As I was declined to use my railcard I didn't travel as ^40 for two of us was deemed too expensive for us. It's ^12 and some pence with the railcard. I should of been offered off peak return at ^12.35 each, however they would only offer me the anytime return at ^19.90 each. We know my opinion on Redruth station and their customer service skills already from another post in the frequent posters area. ....................but if it was before 0900, was your railcard valid??? ??? Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: LiskeardRich on August 05, 2014, 06:26:05 I was refused it recently on the 0852 travelling to Plymouth, the 0913 was cancelled that day so I couldn't justify waiting for the next service as time I got there would have been too late. As I was declined to use my railcard I didn't travel as ^40 for two of us was deemed too expensive for us. It's ^12 and some pence with the railcard. I should of been offered off peak return at ^12.35 each, however they would only offer me the anytime return at ^19.90 each. We know my opinion on Redruth station and their customer service skills already from another post in the frequent posters area. ....................but if it was before 0900, was your railcard valid??? ??? Yes, it is valid after 0833 on off peak return. After 9am on off peak day return. Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: TaplowGreen on August 05, 2014, 08:16:21 I was refused it recently on the 0852 travelling to Plymouth, the 0913 was cancelled that day so I couldn't justify waiting for the next service as time I got there would have been too late. As I was declined to use my railcard I didn't travel as ^40 for two of us was deemed too expensive for us. It's ^12 and some pence with the railcard. I should of been offered off peak return at ^12.35 each, however they would only offer me the anytime return at ^19.90 each. We know my opinion on Redruth station and their customer service skills already from another post in the frequent posters area. ....................but if it was before 0900, was your railcard valid??? ??? Yes, it is valid after 0833 on off peak return. After 9am on off peak day return. Apologies - my fault for not reading the thread thoroughly! :-[ Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 05, 2014, 16:09:15 Confusing innit? (I fully expect Chris from Nailsea to be along shortly with his Mornington Crescent analogy) :P ;) ;D QED. ::) Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: thetrout on August 05, 2014, 16:41:04 Fun and games were had with Revenue Protection this morning on the train into London Liverpool Street.
I had a First Class Off Peak Return Portion from Southend Victoria - Frome. The ticket has restriction code: Which is very interesting. The restriction is based on the time you depart London Paddington on the Return Portion. Not the time you arrive in or traverse London on the Underground. So this means it is acceptable to use this ticket on any GreaterAnglia service into London Paddington. Even if they are Peak Time Trains. I had a tough time explaining that to the RPI. This particular RPI was not prepared to accept they were wrong. It was a simple "Your ticket is not valid at this time of day" I explained the restriction was based on the time leaving London Paddington/London Waterloo and not the time arriving into London Liverpool Street. It was then suggested by the RPI's colleague that a Penalty Fare be issued. Having to resort to bringing up the NRCoC on my phone at 7AM shouldn't be necessary by any means. But it saw the Penalty being written up, torn up, rather quickly indeed. You CANNOT be issued a Penalty Fare for using an (Super)Off Peak Ticket on an Anytime Ticket ONLY train! I asked the RPIs then to phone their supervisor for clarification on the restriction. They refused. So I refused to pay the excess unless a second opinion. I made it very clear that if the supervisor was willing to explain why I was wrong then I would happily pay for an FDS SOV - LST and call it a deal down to experience. The RPI's eventually admitted defeat when I showed them the restriction code from www.brfares.com and I was advised not to attempt the journey in this nature again. Advice which is wrong and I have no intentions of following. This is the same RPI I had an argument with for nearly 30 minutes over the use of a Railcard on a First Class ticket. Apparently you can't do that either in their eyes... I finished the argument with a comment that really was childish but felt necessary at the time through severe frustration "My Railcard is alright on this one isn't it?" I just received the look... ::) It is also worth pointing out, that restrictions on the ticket should be explained to the customer at the point of sale. However if the staff member who sold me the ticket doesn't know the restrictions. Then they cannot supply that information. I know for a fact that the Guard who sold me the FSR does not know the restrictions because she said to me "You're the only person I ever sell this one too so it always takes me a while to find it" That being said. I reasonably don't expect staff to know every single restriction on every ticket. Even us regular forum folk can't get our head around them all. Finally, It is fair to say that if you supply the TM with the Avantix Destination Codes and Ticket Code. They will assume you know what you're doing and what the rules of the game are... Just a shame that the TOCs like to change the rules at times it suits them and/or move the goalposts when they get a telling off in the UK Courts... St Albans springs to mind :-X :-\ ;) Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: Brucey on August 05, 2014, 19:55:07 Finally, It is fair to say that if you supply the TM with the Avantix Destination Codes and Ticket Code. They will assume you know what you're doing and what the rules of the game are... I always assumed a ticket could be swiped through the card reader on the Avantix (to save finding it in the system) and the restriction text shown on screen. Is this not the case?Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: SDS on August 05, 2014, 23:28:49 Nope.
From memory when you swipe a ticket on advantix (if the machine actually encoded something useful onto the mag stripe in the first place) it comes up with the to/from, date of expiry, time of issue, a code for the last station used (ie last barrier used). Also how many adults/kids/discount. If the ticket is interrogated using a proper booking office, you get an A4 printout of everything you ever wanted to know about the ticket. This printout is for internal use only and normally only gets printed when there's a revenue dispute or the tickets already been used through a barrier on a previous day. Must admit I do like people like you trout, staff can learn more from passengers who study the NFM then the training the tocs actually provide. It has always been the rule you cannot penalty fare based on an advertised restriction or restricted ticket (e.g. off peak in peak) and it would result in an automatic upholding of the appeal a nice ^8 charge to the issuing toc and an automatic bo***king letter to the person who issued it via the TOC. Think im gonna have fun with an easement in a couple of weeks, which is poorly written and saves me almost ^40 on a priv ticket by invoking that easement and the routing guide maps. However just look at this evil discriminating poster. Men only??? Sheesh. Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: grahame on August 06, 2014, 00:51:00 However just look at this evil discriminating poster. Men only??? Sheesh. Almost undoubtedly dates from the era when women could draw a pension at 60 but men had to wait until 65 (which was, I suggest, evil and discriminating ;) ), and was saying that men did not have to wait the extra five years for a senior citizen's railcard. http://www.web40571.clarahost.co.uk/statepensionage/SPA_history.htm Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: chuffed on August 06, 2014, 07:07:11 Can I use the Railcard in Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland?
Railcards can be used for rail discounts in the area known as Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales). They cannot be used for rail travel in either in Northern Ireland nor the Republic of Ireland. If you live in the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland you can buy a Railcard to use for travelling in Scotland, Wales or England. For more information on concessionary rail travel schemes in Northern Ireland please see www.translink.co.uk or the Republic of Ireland please see www.irishrail.ie. From the Senior railcard FAQ's. Shurely shome discrimination here. If all the Irish are allowed to buy railcards to use in England, Scotland ow Wales, why can't we use ours over there ? Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: Brucey on August 06, 2014, 07:10:53 Shurely shome discrimination here. If all the Irish are allowed to buy railcards to use in England, Scotland ow Wales, why can't we use ours over there ? They can buy a England, Wales & Scotland railcard which is only valid in England, Wales & Scotland (same as us). If they want a discount in NI or ROI, they have to purchase whatever the local equivalent product is, like we would have to.Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: ChrisB on August 06, 2014, 11:08:45 ZAnd in any case, an offer is an offer....they can make T&Cs where they want to.
Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: TeaStew on August 06, 2014, 12:39:48 You CANNOT be issued a Penalty Fare for using an (Super)Off Peak Ticket on an Anytime Ticket ONLY train! Apologies if I don't understand the minutiae of this journey and ticket type but I was under the impression that if it is a penalty fare area/station then having an Off Peak ticket on a "peak" train is going to get you a penalty fare. Although what is peak etc is another thing. Not trying to split hairs, just trying to understand exactly what is being said here. Was that a blanket CANNOT or just for this instance. Sorry! :-\ Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: ChrisB on August 06, 2014, 12:56:01 As I understand it, no PF can be issued if you've paid anything for a fare for the journey. So offpeak instead of peak or buying a 'short' journey means excess or prosecution only, but no PF?
Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: grahame on August 06, 2014, 13:19:35 As I understand it, no PF can be issued if you've paid anything for a fare for the journey. So offpeak instead of peak or buying a 'short' journey means excess or prosecution only, but no PF? https://www.ircas.co.uk/penaltyfares.shtml Quote Where penalty fares apply, passengers must buy a ticket before starting their journey wherever there are facilities for them to do so. If a passenger boards a bus or train without a ticket at a station where ticket facilities were available, they will be liable to pay a penalty if they meet a ticket inspector appointed as an Authorised Collector. There's a link to a document library which includes a 32 page (I kid you not) set of detailed rules, but the above is fairly clear - it says "must buy a ticket" and not "must buy the correct ticket". That sorta makes sense because a penalty fare is a complete ticket, and not an upgrade. And having a ticket or not is easy for Jo Public to understand ... having a ticket that's correct for the journey being made can baffle the best of us, and even the staff at times ... as witnessed by thetrout's story! Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: ChrisB on August 06, 2014, 13:23:40 Indeed, also the word "without" a ticket is pretty clear too
Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: JayMac on August 06, 2014, 17:44:35 From the Penalty Fares Rules (https://www.ircas.co.uk/docs/SRA%20-%20Penalty%20Fare%20Rules%202002.pdf):
Quote 6 People who may be charged a penalty fare 6.1 Any person travelling by, present on or leaving a penalty fares train must, if asked by an authorised collector, produce a valid ticket or other authority for the journey they have made or are making. 6.2 If a person fails to produce a valid ticket or other authority in line with rule 6.1, the authorised collector may charge that person a penalty fare, in line with the Regulations and these rules. <snip> 7 Circumstances in which a penalty fare may not be charged <snip> 7.6 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. The salient points of Condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf): Quote 12. Restrictions on when you can travel Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions will be made clear to you by the seller when you buy your ticket. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then: (a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket So, the correct procedure when travelling on a time restricted (Super Off Peak/Off Peak) walk-up ticket at a time it is not valid is to be excessed up to the walk-up fare valid on the train you are on. A penalty fare should not be charged. If the original ticket is railcard discounted then so should the excess. Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: Btline on August 06, 2014, 17:54:31 What happens if you buy a railcard discounted ticket online for less than ^12, and then use it before 10am.
Will the barrier spit out your ticket? Will a guard charge an excess? Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: ChrisB on August 06, 2014, 17:55:12 Presumably, only if the railcard is valid for the train used....
Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: JayMac on August 06, 2014, 18:30:55 What happens if you buy a railcard discounted ticket online for less than ^12, and then use it before 10am. Will the barrier spit out your ticket? Will a guard charge an excess? Covered by Condition 12 of the NRCoC. An excess to the correct fare is the correct procedure. Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: thetrout on August 06, 2014, 20:09:50 Something I didn't initally mention in my previous post. But I decided after the strong supporting evidence that I would take a shot at FGWs Facebook Page and have a minor rant about further issues on the validity of my ticket.
Annoying it happened twice in one day. Anyway here is the post copy and pasted from their page: thetrout post on FGW Facebook Page (https://www.facebook.com/FirstGreatWestern/posts/10152257150906806) Quote Hello FGW. Was a little disappointed with my experience using FGW yesterday. I was going to catch the 15:06 London Paddington - Penzance train to Westbury (1C86) and found the set had a Micro Buffet. So once again the Travelling Chef order of the day was a cancellation of the hot buffet service. This is happened to me so many times, that I get let down more often than not. You're in discussions over the future of the Travelling Chef service. But if you constantly fail to provide it. Then of course customers are going to seek other choices, because they lose faith in the existing service. Such a shame really. The food is always of excellent quality and for a Railway price, not too unreasonable either. Again, it is a shame and particularly sour tasting when I make effort to seek the trains that offer this service. Also one of your colleagues at London Paddington seemed to take displeasure in my disagreement with the validity of a First Class Off Peak Return. Ironically having had an earlier problem regarding validity on a GreaterAnglia service, I was beginning to wonder if the railway was secretly mocking me. So I decided that because the Travelling Chef was not on the 15:06, I would sit in the First Class Lounge and catch the 15:30 instead. This presented me an issue trying to exit the barrier again. I explained to your colleague I had changed my mind on travel time and then had a disagreement over the validity of my ticket. Your Colleague (who I won't name in the public domain) said that Off Peak Tickets are NOT valid at all after 16:30. A Frome - Southend Victoria FSR has restriction code LC. So the correct time in this case is 16:40 and NOT 16:30. He also failed to accept that you can excess the return portion to an Anytime Priced Fare before travel OR onboard the train without penalty if I wished. That is also clearly defined in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. Finally, your colleague also seemed to be rather flippant about the ticket being valid again from 18:31. They might have thought I was being clever. However they were not to know I might have had a diary change and was going to catch the 21:45... Saying the ticket is NOT VALID AFTER 16:30 is not acceptable as this is just not the case. I don't expect staff to know every single restriction code in the books. Hell even I struggle to understand some of them. It's clear the staff do too. I don't mind explaining the codes etc. But there are ways and means of doing it. I really don't want to have a go or a rant, considering there are aspects of the journeys and your colleagues I am very supportive and enjoy. I just get very frustrated when I am given conflicting information. So, sorry for having a go. But really? The pedantic bottom line is, a travelling chef was sorely missed and there were another 10 minutes my ticket were still valid. Perhaps I should try the 16:36 next time?! :P Warm Regards, thetrout Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: John R on August 06, 2014, 20:21:11 Just one question, your post talks about catching the 1530, but then refers to 1630 and 1640. I can't work out the relevance of the 10 minute difference 1 hour later?
Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: thetrout on August 06, 2014, 21:08:35 Sorry I didn't make that very clear and just realised it is slightly ominous...
The Gateline Staff Member said at first I couldn't use it on the 15:30, then realised he'd got it wrong and meant 16:30. It struck a cord however as the 16:36 connects at Westbury and having checked the journey planner, it does advertise this as valid. Either way, he was wrong with both 15:30 and 16:30. So correlation between 15:06, 15:30, 16:30, 16:36, 16:40 and 18:31 is as follows: 15:06 = Penzance Train which I initially boarded, then alighted due to no travelling chef. 15:30 = Train I caught to Bath Spa 16:30 = Time I was told that travel must start by, also another Bath Spa train 16:36 = Westbury Train with an advertised Frome connection 16:40 = Time where trains are classed as Anytime/Peak Trains by restriction code LC 18:31 = Time Off Peak Tickets become valid again until close of service Does that make better sense? Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: John R on August 06, 2014, 21:22:53 I think so. Out of interest, how does one find out which restriction code is valid for a given ticket?
Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: SDS on August 06, 2014, 22:00:08 http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/lc
John R If you know the restriction code for the ticket you can find it on national rail at the National Rail website now. Just replace the lc shown above with the restriction code. These tend to be printed on the tickets on new upgraded TiS. Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: LiskeardRich on August 06, 2014, 22:02:22 I think so. Out of interest, how does one find out which restriction code is valid for a given ticket? I always check on brfares as it gives a more plain English explanation. Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: SDS on August 06, 2014, 22:19:06 I think so. Out of interest, how does one find out which restriction code is valid for a given ticket? I always check on brfares as it gives a more plain English explanation. Thats only the same information as it written in the fares manual or on Advantix Traveller CD ROMS. The new NR pages seem to have it well laid out the example as www.nationalrail.co.uk/lc Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 06, 2014, 22:32:19 Sorry I didn't make that very clear and just realised it is slightly ominous ... Does that make better sense? Erm ... No. ::) I assume you meant ambiguous, rather than ominous? ;) :D ;D Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: TeaStew on August 06, 2014, 22:53:55 Very sorry to drag this back round again but NRCoC condition 12 goes on to say
Quote If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned. The same principle will apply if you wish to transfer to first class accommodation. This rule does not apply in designated Penalty Fares areas, where you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare. Which concurs with what has been said above until that last sentence which seems to say Penalty Fare areas are a law unto themselves. Am I missing something? Just want to make sure I haven't got a different end of the stick. ??? Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: thetrout on August 07, 2014, 01:52:49 Very sorry to drag this back round again but NRCoC condition 12 goes on to say <snip> Which concurs with what has been said above until that last sentence which seems to say Penalty Fare areas are a law unto themselves. Am I missing something? Just want to make sure I haven't got a different end of the stick. ??? Don't apologise at all, that is a very interesting point. And something I don't know the answer to. It looks like we now have a horrible contradiction of various rules. However I understand that the Penalty Fare Rules that BNM referred to override this. Anyhow I have an awful feeling that Jess does not like me... :-X Quote Hi thetrout, First off, I would like to apologise for the lack of Travelling Chef on board the 15.06 service yesterday. This is because the train that had the facilities on board was delayed by hitting a bird. We need to make sure that no damage has been done to the train, so it was just under half an hour late getting into Paddington. This would have meant your service would have been delayed if we had waited for the availability of the Travelling Chef. Therefore, the decision was made to run the train without it, and avoid any more disruption. You are correct in saying the the restriction code LC is valid up until 16.40. However, as you said, there are a large amount of restriction codes in use. A general rule of thumb at Paddington is any train after 16.30. Sometimes there just wouldn't be time for gateline staff to double check all restrictions. They will be happy to point you in the right direction, or advise when tickets would be valid again though. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage do state that you can excess a ticket on board, but this is only if you are travelling from a station that is not in a designated Penalty Fares area. As Paddington is, you would be able to excess a ticket at the ticket office, but not from any train leaving this station. Otherwise, you are liable to pay a Penalty Fare. This is stated in Part I, B, 12, (a). I hope this has answered your questions. Let me know if you need any further clarification though. Jess Looks like we could have incorrect information again... </Tongue in cheek=Or Jess likes to play games with me and keep me on my toes> I have posted a lengthy response. I was also discussing this with an FGW Station Manager earlier today and they suggested a few things to add/ask. They said they'd be interested in the response, so please forgive me if the post seems a little blunt or unfair. I have tried to word it however in a nice and constructive way. Quote Thanks for your response Jess. It does answer the TC issue. However I do have issue with a couple of things and require clarification if you don't mind... :) The NRCoC Section 1, B, 12a was the very clause to which I was referring. However it states nothing of the sort in terms of what you have mentioned surrounding Penalty Fares. This is the exact "Copy Paste" wording is as follows: "you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket)" Which makes no reference to Condition 4 regarding Penalty Fares in the NRCoC. Infact, the Penalty Fare Rules 2002 make this statement in Clause 7.6 which says the complete opposite: "An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage." Now I'm not sure about you, but that is abundantly clear to me what that means in terms of a rule. Using this logic I could have boarded the 17:00 (For sake of argument) and paid the Train Manager the Excess to travel on that train. In the case point however using the "rule of thumb" that has given me concerns. There is a 16:36 which connects at Westbury for Frome, on which the Journey Planner clearly shows the return portion of an FSR from SOV - FRO being valid. Infact the journey planner lists one journey where this is not the case (The 18:06 PAD - FRO direct). However if your staff are using a speculative 16:30 blanket rule. If your colleagues, as your suggested "Do not have enough time to check restrictions" then your colleagues MUST give the customer the benefit of the doubt. Because I "Do not have enough time and energy to argue" It can work both ways that one :\ In my case point, your colleague DID NOT advise when the ticket would be valid, he just said travel by 16:30 or new ticket. That is very different from advice being given to when validity resumes or the possibility of excess. I am understanding and sympathetic towards staff, but there is a limit to some of these things, but I am slowly seeing my confidence and patience tested. One your colleagues who had only started the job at Paddington the same day asked me what the code DSB meant on my ticket!! :O That is a basic Railcard code, I would expect even the newest staff member to know that one! I was happy to explain this and we had a pleasant, brief, discussion. But if I am getting a question like that, then from my point of view it doesn't look very good... FGW have been pushing the 'campaign' to their staff of "Putting the customer first" So far, my version is this: Putting the customer into an argument over ticket validity causing them to potentially miss a train that is valid Putting the customer into a state of anxiety for implying wrong doing and that they would be charged a Penalty Fare when the rules state the opposite Putting the customer into an unnecessary and forced 3+ hour delay because staff refused benefit of the doubt so now they now catch the 19:45. So to me if that is the description of putting the customer first, something is VERY wrong indeed. Because from the case point it's clear that it's putting the customer into a risky debate and disagreement when they have deliberately taken time to understand and play by the rules. I'm sorry I've been quite blunt, perhaps borderline rude here. Please do not take anything personally and I was not intending to be rude in explaining my point of view. But I really do get frustrated when I receive information I know to be factually incorrect and I don't take injustice very well. I have the upmost respect for your colleagues working with a system that is less than ideal. If I am incorrect then please suggest where the correct information lies and I will happily retract my suggestions and apologise. Jess, Thanks again for your response and sorry to put you in a difficult position here. Warm Regards, thetrout :) We have gone way off topic, so if the admin team want to break my stuff into a new thread I am happy with that. My fault but my post was relevant to the original post and has since escalated... ::) Sorry, always doing that :( :-X ;D Sorry I didn't make that very clear and just realised it is slightly ominous ... Does that make better sense? Erm ... No. ::) I assume you meant ambiguous, rather than ominous? ;) :D ;D Yes I did, thanks :) I won't amend it though as you've called me out already... No splat smiley though!! ;D ;D ;D ;D Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: SDS on August 07, 2014, 13:55:17 Interesting tht FGW are playing the you can be PFd on a restricted ticket.
I have always been told you cannot PF anyone holding a restricted ticket. (Advances on wrong train yes, but that's a different subject). You can however issue a TIR or MG11 if you believe there's intent to avoid but this would go to prosecutions to make a decision, and most likely they wouldn't pursue it. It seems that yet again another court ruling is needed in regards to all these contradictory rules and regulations. However wouldn't CPFUTCA apply here?? Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: LiskeardRich on August 07, 2014, 16:51:31 Coming back to my original post, cross country have sent me the following reply:
Quote Dear Mr Warwicker Thank you for your email, received here on 2 August 2014. I can confirm that your understanding of the Cornwall and Devon Railcard is correct. It is only valid for use on services after 09:00. I have arranged for our on-board staff to be briefed regarding this as other passengers should not be allowed to use the railcard if they are boarding at the same station as you. Thank you for taking the time to contact us, if I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me. I also received an automated acknowledgement and a personalised mail within 24 hours stating they'd referred it to the relevant department. I put the same email query to FGW and they haven't had the decency to reply yet, or even acknowledge beyond the automated 5 day response time email. They are now on day 6! Interesting to compare two different TOCs customer service for the same query. Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: thetrout on August 07, 2014, 17:41:46 And I am guilty as charged... Until proven innocent it seems...
Quote Hi thetrout, Thanks for your reply, and for your further points, which I trust I can answer for you. In the relevant section of the Conditions of Carriage, there is a further paragraph that states - If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned. The same principle will apply if you wish to transfer to first class accommodation. This rule does not apply in designated Penalty Fares areas, where you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare. The last sentence does say a Penalty Fare will be given if you don't excess your ticket if you are in a designated Penalty Fares area. If you believe that you are right, then of course we will check your ticket validity. Gateline staff may not be able to do this immediately if they have other duties to attend to, but will either point you in the direction of someone who can confirm this, or will ask another staff member to assist. However, we are unable to give customer's the benefit of the doubt. If the customer is incorrect, then they could get a Penalty Fare and it would be the staff member that would be liable for giving incorrect information. We cannot allow passengers to travel unless we are 100% sure that the ticket is correct. With regards to the new staff member, if it was their first day, then they wouldn't have had any previous training about tickets, etc. Advice and information is given out as they go along. There would have been a staff member close by to assist with this though, if help was needed. We do make sure all staff are fully trained before leaving them alone to do their jobs, and we make sure they have the necessary knowledge to perform their duties. Until this time, they would be supervised. I hope this has answered your questions. Jess I am now severely irritated with FGW's response. Lets pick it apart and make real mountains and some mole hills for good measure ;D :-X >:( where you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare. <snip> The last sentence does say a Penalty Fare will be given no no NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My understanding is "WILL be given" is extremely different to "MAY be given" As a side matter, I do some volunteering in the Youth Centre and have helped some Young People with financial matters. A debt collection agency saying "We MAY take (il)legal action if you don't pay up" (A speculative phishing letter) is completely different from saying "We WILL take court action if you don't pay up" (A Letter Before Action or LBA for short) We cannot allow passengers to travel unless we are 100% sure that the ticket is correct. Well this one made me laugh. Guilty until proven innocent. That stinks. It seriously stinks to be honest... I have yet to calm down... Not the first time Jess has told me this one too... London Underground Delays anyone?? No. Need more mole hills :P If the customer is incorrect, then they could get a Penalty Fare and it would be the staff member that would be liable for giving incorrect information. So what is the point of the Penalty Fares Rules of 2002? That leads me to believe SDS has shot the gun in the right direction on CPFUTCA SDS I agree on your point R.E: CPFUTCA... (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/284426/oft311.pdf) FGW appear to be picking the rules that suit them. Very dubious... If I find myself with a Penalty Fare I will take it to court as I believe there to be a wider public interest for what is a fundamentally basic issue. I am happy to play by the rules. But the TOCs need to play fair and stop cheating. WTF have I started...?! :-X :-X Big enough mountains? :P ::) :D I put the same email query to FGW and they haven't had the decency to reply yet, or even acknowledge beyond the automated 5 day response time email. They are now on day 6! I too am waiting on a reply regarding my time before last, dire trip to Southend Victoria. Quote Interesting to compare two different TOCs customer service for the same query. Lets compare three... c2c... Sent an email querying a ticket issue from Chalkwell. Typed it on my laptop when I boarded the train. By the time the train got to London Fenchurch Street I had an answer to my email which was well beyond satisfactory! ;D Oh and a ^10 RTV too ;D Edit to change your name to your forum name as you left your real name in there - you must have been steaming ;D Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: JayMac on August 07, 2014, 18:39:52 Coming back to my original post, cross country have sent me the following reply: Quote Dear Mr Warwicker Thank you for your email, received here on 2 August 2014. I can confirm that your understanding of the Cornwall and Devon Railcard is correct. It is only valid for use on services after 09:00. I have arranged for our on-board staff to be briefed regarding this as other passengers should not be allowed to use the railcard if they are boarding at the same station as you. Thank you for taking the time to contact us, if I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me. CrossCountry are 100% wrong. I'd chase this up, pointing to National Rail Enquiries, where the T&Cs state it is valid on Off Peak and Off Peak Day tickets with no mention of a blanket 'before 0900' validity. Ignore what they and Truro ticket office are saying and buy your D&C discounted tickets online from FGW, where the discount is being correctly applied. Also ask them where, in the public domain, this blanket not valid 'before 0900' validity is advertised. Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 07, 2014, 19:33:47 No splat smiley though!! ;D ;D ;D ;D No: you didn't earn it this time, young trout. ;) Title: Re: Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally Post by: LiskeardRich on September 16, 2014, 16:58:57 I'd completely forgotten about this. Today I had a response from FGW.
Quote Thank you for your email received on 2 August 2014. Please accept my most sincere apologies for the delay in response. We have recently received quite a high volume of correspondence and we have just started working on a new system, hence the backlog. I understand that you are trying to get confirmation if you can use your Devon and Cornwall Railcard on the 8:52 service from Redruth to Truro. The railcard will entitle you to one-third off Standard Class Off-Peak tickets across Devon and Cornwall. As the 8:52 train is a peak service, no railcard discounts can be offered. The earliest train from Redruth to Truro on a weekday that the Devon and Cornwall Railcard discount may be applied is the 9:13 service. If you wish to raise your observation with CrossCountry as they operate the 8:52 service from Redruth to Truro, please find their contact information below: Customer Relations Manager CrossCountry Cannon House 18 Priory Queensway Birmingham B4 6BS Tel: 08447 369 123 Fax: 0121 654 7603 Email: customer.relations@crosscountrytrains.co.uk Thanks again for taking the time to contact First Great Western and please do not hesitate to let me know if I can be of any further assistance. Yours Sincerely Now they know my original email was sent to them and Crosscountry as I sent one email to 2 recipients. They would also surely know that Crosscountry replied within 2 working days to me as Crosscountry cc'd FGW into their response to me. Interesting to compare the two companies turn around time for what I would deem to be a basic query. Also interesting that both responses were not technically correct. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |