Great Western Coffee Shop

Well, I did say that I wouldn't moan about the air conditioning failures after getting my free ice cream today, BUT, something doesn't seem quite right. There have been many complaints on Twitter this week concerning the problem and it's made me think; I have made 11 journeys on FGW Class 158 trains this week, and the air conditioning was only working on one of them (the 1840 from Salisbury today on which I travelled to Westbury). I have also made 8 journeys on SWT Class 159 trains in the same period and the aircon was working on all of them. There is also obviously a similar problem on the HSTs, from reading the tweets. Do the different operators have different priorities?

The FGW 158s are intensively used compared to the SWT 159s so yes, there are different priorities albeit forced onto FGW and that is to keep as many trains in service as possible.
There's also three different types of air con fitted to the 158s known Temperature, Ebac or Liebherr.  The FGW fleet is a mixture of Temperature and Liebherr.  There are drawbacks to each system, Temperature for example uses extensive amount of pipe work and connections which increases the risks of leaks and ultimately a loss of refrigerant.

HSTs again comes down to ensuring maximum availability of carriages although I believe its only Laira depot that handles major work to the air con units
The problem with the HST air con units is their design.  Due to the age they exhaust hot air out underneath the carriage (whereas more modern stock exhausts hot air through the roof of the train). Therefore, when the train sits in a platform with little air flow underneath the train the air con units basically start running hot and eventually trip out to prevent damage.  This can only be reset at a maintenance depot. The air con units are modular but obviously they can only be removed if there's a replacement to go back in. 

Turbos, air con modules are still under warranty.  They were fitted under an 'install and maintain' contract.  There were "issues" raised last under regards the "maintain" part of that contract (or so we heard). Modifications were made over the winter to these units which included replacing evap and condenser units as well as trying to increase air flow.  They already take a considerable amount of power off the engine but it's not powerful enough to overcome and cool an overcrowded vehicle.

I had to ask for the windows to be unlocked on Wednesday morning on a 158 from Bristol TM travelling down to Salisbury.  It was after Westbury before a staff member walked through the train.  Fine on the way back at 18:40.  (Won't identify the first train and therefore staff member).

I've never quite worked out how to get the windows unlocked by a member of staff on a Driver only turbo..

I know, clever that!!  I have had station staff jump on and unlock the windows if they can do so without causing a delay. 

Even at scheduled stops on a DOO train, very few people who get off the train even tells us the air con has failed. If no one tells us we can't unlock the windows during a turnaround, or at the very least, it gets reported. 

Yeah it's not ideal.. I posted about it at the time but I was on a very hot train one Sunday last summer that made me feel quite ill in the end. I could have got off at Slough to ask the member of staff there who was shoe horning people onto an already overcrowded train if he could do so but a) he wouldn't have been able to get to the windows and b) I'd have lost my seat and most likely my place on the train too..

Mind  you it could be worse you could be stuck travelling on an optare solo which are terrible in the hot weather

The NBfL (New Bus for London, aka Boris Bus) I travelled on today appeared to have a consumptive gerbil coughing out the aircon.

It was a warm, damp and barely noticeable airflow.

Roughly a third of Class 166 carriages have air-con working at the moment.  About the same as this time last summer.  Disappointing.  Though better than the 0% that were working before the system was replaced.

Isn't that how the aircon worked in the 'Flintstones'?

Paul

New Bus 4 London doesn't have air conditioning,  so finding any would have been some fete!

I thought it did have air-conditioning as there are no opening windows but as it happens yesterday I travelled from White City to Victoria on one such bus on the 148 route and I was definitely sweating by the end of the journey, so I undertook a little research. It seems that this type of bus has an 'air-cooling' system supplied by the Dutch firm Heavac. There's some discussion about this on the Boriswatch site from last week:

http://www.boriswatch.co.uk/2014/07/16/the-new-routemaster-still-unable-to-cope-with-london-summers/ (http://www.boriswatch.co.uk/2014/07/16/the-new-routemaster-still-unable-to-cope-with-london-summers/)

That's not fayre!  :P ;) ;D

Point taken though. Air cooling system rather than air conditioning. Whatever it is, it was still little better than having a tuberculosis addled wheezing weasel breathing on you.

That would explain why the conductors are always hanging out the back door of these buses when it is hot then!

Should any forum members be on the 1852 BRI to Westbury at the moment and are feeling chilly the heating is on in the rear coach specially for you!

My suggestion to FGW.. Having read lots of recent communications from people about hot trains to them is (for the class 166's in my experience but I'm sure it's not limited to them)

1. Check the temperature of your trains at each terminus and more often if applicable and open the windows if any carriage gets too hot

2. IF that is not possible/feasible.. the windows being open HAS to be the default...I don't understand why it isn't the default...

Because if air con is working open windows will make it less effective. So windows open should only be the default if defective air on is the default.

1.  Checking the temperature at terminus stations can give a false impression, the air con isn't running at full potential when the train is stationary and with no power applied.  This is because there is no air flow to dissipate the heat and as a result, when the train is stationary it runs in its own heat the effect this has is the refrigerant then starts to break down causing an air con failure.

2.  Open windows results in the air con system working harder and considering the trains could be running 15+ hours a day you're increasing the risk of a failure through, potentially an overheating of the system. 

2. Indeed, open windows means the unit is trying to air condition the world, not just that coach. I'm amazed the general public don't understand that. Only windows open if the aircon Isn't functioning.

I would repeat my earlier suggestion that the windows should be locked shut electrically when the air conditioning is working thereby giving the air conditioning more of a chance.

In case of failure, the windows could be unlocked and passengers be able to open them. This unlocking could be either automatic or manual.

When the air conditioning was mended someone would have to shut the windows since the electromagnet can not pull shut a window that is open, it can only lock an already shut window.

Electromagnets to hold a door or window shut or open are an established technology available from a number of suppliers.

Won't happen while the DfT controls the stock allocation....

In which case, connect the thermostat of the office of the DfT stock allocator to one of the 166s.

If only a third of units have air con that is working (as mentioned earlier in this thread), please tell me that the other two thirds do have their windows unlocked?

Yes, they do.

That is good then.. I do think it's almost worth giving up on keeping the air conditioning going to be honest.. It's been going on for so many years now and I don't really think the situation has improved in all that time and with all that effort put in

I have to agree, its been a long time since I have been on a turbo and noticed the a/c working properly as you would expect (windows open or closed). With the current GW franchise close to the end and new rolling stock on the horizon, I cant see any serious attempt to rectify the problem for current duties.

There have been several attempts to "fix" the problem in the past and jugging by the number of comments on this forum, it sounds like a fundamental design flaw with the system. Lets hope that the class 345 and whatever else replace them for do a better job and they resolve the issues with any refresh they do with the cascade west ( not sure if there is a refresh planned but they need them as they are really starting to look tired again).

These were designed with no aircon, as all trains were not that long ago. Seriously, when I started commuting, you just opened the windows....

With any add-on after the event, the design is made to best-fit....

The system, as I understand it, is still under warranty, so repairs/tests will continue.  There's usually at least one carriage where it's working.  A prolonged hot spell like we are currently in obviously stresses the system.  If they can work out why the system fails then there is a great little system in there - certainly better than the original one.

The 166s were designed to have an air-con system, but the original one installed was not up to the task, and IIRC it was quite a late design change to have air-con installed, so the optimum design to allow it to work most efficiently probably wasn't worked out.

As IndustryInsider says, the 166s have had aircon from day one.

It was the 165s which were designed without aircon, and as a result have over double the number of hopper windows.

In my opinion defeat should be admitted with the current 166 aircon. A totally new system should be fitted OR the remaining sealed windows should be converted to the hopper type.

"Prolonged hot spell"? It's been two weeks of seasonally warm weather with a few "hot" days at the most!!!  ::)

My understanding with the 158s is that the suppliers of parts for the AC Units have run into financial trouble. Also some of the relays and other parts FGW sourced were of poor quality and keep failing after installation.

From a passenger viewpoint. It is entirely FGWs fault and they can do no right. However if the suppliers have let FGW down then this has a knock-on effect all the way round the vicious circle.

Currently there is one Class 158 Unit I am aware of where everything works. But that is easily the best 158 FGW have in the fleet and I have a feeling this one receives a little more attention than the rest.

Opening the windows is all very well and good IMHO. But when the train is sat in a stationary siding then it does cause things to get a bit warm.

But those who open the windows on the trains where there is clearly Air Conditioning working are probably the same type that would pull a PASSCOM whilst the train is in a tunnel and they have discovered a small fire... ::)

Is it 158798 by any chance ?   This is a unique one so far as FGW is concerned as it is a true 3 Car Set and has a different history, perhaps.

158798 is the only FGW 158 with the Ebac air con system

My sympathy to those passengers and staff that are having to put up with needless high temperatures and humidities while travelling.

An old fashioned mark 1 with sliding vent windows - a design dating from the 1920's - well that's excusable but not stock (even from 1992) with AC built in.

Refrigeration was one of my little life-skills with which I earned a crust or two. The technology ought to be very reliable and 50 year old units are often still in operation. Unfortunately systems are now bought (by non-technical people in suits) on first-cost only, without specifying reliability and economy. In addition about 75% of technician apprenticeships went in the early '90's. Thus, there are now very few competent designers, installers or maintainers.

In my experience, Mark 3 AC failures were rare, wheras a 166 with working AC was more an idea coined in a sweating, overheated cerebellum. True, there's not a lot of power for the compressors/fans (they need about 10kW/15HP) but a depot has all year to get ready for our short hot spells.

LUL has taken this seriously with the TCP (tube cooling program), with AC on surface stock and likely on new tube stock, better tunnel vent and ground-water derived cooling, all being progessively implemented.

OTC

Last night's 20:45 PAD - BRI suffered some issues. Only one power car was running and coach E seemed to have no air-con. Guess where I was sitting? Full marks, however, to the Train Manager: she apologized and, after the departure of the hordes at RDG, announced where cooler seats were available. After that she came through with bottled water and further personal apologies. Great service under challenging conditions.

I'd describe the weather over the summer so far as a prolonged hot spell, yes.  The temperature has been over 25 degrees virtually every day for a few weeks now (and no sign of an immediate end).  I wouldn't describe it as a heatwave though as temperatures haven't hit over 30 on a frequent basis, but over 25 degrees and the air-con will be working constantly throughout the day, so therefore stressing the system more than you might usually expect from the British summer.

Over 25 for a virtually every day few weeks now?.....methinks not (Max temperature^C May 27 2014 - Jul 22 2014) (http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/cgi-bin/klibild?WMO=03772&ZEITRAUM=08&ZEIT=22072014&ART=MAX&LANG=en&1406108472&ZUGRIFF=NORMAL&MD5=).

In point of fact there have only been 10 days this month where temperatures have got over 25 degrees in London.

Yet in RG8 the 2m average temperature has been over 25C every day for the past week, except for 27th July, when it only reached 24.5C.

The July 2014 CET average for the UK (measured over an area of cental england) is currently 18.16^C.

Its all a moot point, it depends where you are, what readings you are looking at and who is doing the measurements.

My weather station (which I purposely position in the sun, as I want to know how hot it is when I am sitting in the sun) has read over 30C for the past week - given a large chunk of railway is in open space and direct sun, I doubt II's 25C is far off.

Perhaps it was the forum hot air IndustryInsider was getting readings from?  ;D  ;)

Typo?


Firstly, we're discussing max temps, not 30c generally all day? Also, trains are tin cans agreed, and internal temps could exceed max. And there's the cooling effect of running at 125mph....One guessing door windows are generally open, reducing temps inside....yes, there are a lot of things affecting temperatures. But II made no reference, so one gathers he's referring to generally accepted max recorded official temps, which are shade temps.

Just asked the guard to open the door windows on this class 158, but she was having none of it  ;)

.....and in any case it's a pretty poor aircon system that breaks down once the temperature rises.........it's the whole point of it, whether its 25 or 28 degrees.....it's sort of symptomatic of the lack of robustness and resilience of the railway industry as a whole, unreliable trains, signals, staff etc?

My statement was based on readings from my own weather station in Oxfordshire (currently reading 26.3 and shaded, of course).  If you're going to quibble over a degree or two then so be it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the average temperature over the summer is one of the highest ever.  Constant high temperatures stress systems.

Air Con on HST stock and Turbos will never be a reliable system because you're trying to fit a modern air con system into something that was designed 20+ years ago.
You can't start cutting holes out of a train to fit a more reliable system because doing so weakens the structure of the train.
You're also limited by clearances on the train and by the trains electrical supply.

My weather station, in full sun, recorded 42.8 yesterday!! 

Don't forget, when it comes to Turbos you need to take into consideration the huge amount of heat given off by the engines.  If you've stood next to one you'll know what I mean!

This forum was set up on the back of a lack of appropriate service - and that was overcrowded trains that had been shortened, train schedules that had been slashed so that one previously-busy commuter route (at least) no longer had what the users regarded as a peak train, other services cut back so that one station has just 4 carriages instead of 12 into it's commuter hub in the peak hour, and services so likely to be cancelled that we had to extend the axes of our graphs to 50% cancelled.

We moved rapidly (we didn't think it was rapid at the time!) to a situation where some of these issues were sorted out.  And we came to understand how other issues were systemic and longstanding and couldn't / wouldn't be cured quickly.   Rail is a long term industry, and if you plan a long term industry based on a conservative forecast of 0.8% but then get compound 8.0%, you've got a problem - over 10 years you expected to grow from 100 to 108 passengers, but you've actually grown to twice that - 216 passengers, and you can't just turn up the production line speed at a train factory and press the "widen" button to add more tracks overnight.

Particular problems over recent times have been in the Thames Valley - London to Reading.  I recall being told that there are 60 different types of point motor in use in the UK ... and no less than 30 of them could be found on the London to Reading section.   What a nightmare to maintain, and to fix if something goes wrong.  And problems over the last few days and not for the first time on the TransWilts ... but the system of signalling from Thingley to Westbury is so old that the signalman from Swindon has to phone up Westbury to ask to send a train, and the equipment at Thingley is again rather old and due to be replaced.  For robustness and resilience, standard signalling needs to be put in there,  the junction relayed as a double junction which provides a refuge for a train waiting for the line clear of the main line, and allowing other trains to pass.

But (I'm getting to a point at last!) the staff for the most part are doing their very best with the systems they have, sometimes very much in the face of hostile customers;  we certainly should not be lumping them in with "robustness and resilience" issues.   I was very disappointed indeed when service were cancelled a couple of months back due to lack of staff, but I was more than disappointed - I was shocked - at the reaction of a member of the travelling public who suggested to me that the cancellation was due to a driver not being bothered to get up; said member of the travelling public rapidly changed his tune when I asked whether he really thought a driver would risk his career by being unavailable because he wanted the day off  ... I suggested it could have been illness, and that the customer wouldn't want higher fares to have lots of spare 'just in case' drivers.  And indeed it turned out to be a rostering error ...

My point it - we should not lump in the staff with the criticism.  The more of them I get to know, the more of them I admire.  The more I see the system they have to deal with, the more I respect and admire them.  Sometimes perverse decisions - or rather apparently perverse decisions - are explained and what looked odd becomes obvious. And at other times there's little chance to explain because it would hold up a train.

A big "thank you" then to the operational staff.  A bigger "thank you" to those who go over and above in order to post here.   And a request to posters - ask, criticise the system, enquire robustly ... but for goodness sake don't alienate the very people who DO go above and beyond to explain to us here!

The air con on HSTs works pretty much all the time in my experience..

The Class 166s came with air con didn't they (and less opening windows obviously)?

Class 166s did come with AC but the system required replacing when parts became obsolete and the refrigerant used became illegal. 

I've always found HST AC fairly good but I imagine, as on most trains, it won't be as effective on a heavily loaded train.  Heat output for one person is around 400 BTU, a heavily loaded train therefore has a significant heat loading in such a small area.

What are 180s like these days for efficient AC? I've certainly had some very comfortable cool journeys on them in the past but the only time I've used one more recently in the heat was around this time last year and it wasn't good. The TM did however apologise for the conditions that day so maybe it was a one-off failure?

Air-Con in 180s is, for the most part, very good.  Some would say too good.  The exception is the vestibule areas where it is very poor on virtually all sets.  HST air-con is also generally reliable, though I watched the maintenance technician scrambling around underneath one of the coaches of the 17:22 PAD-HFD last night because it had stopped working.

Both systems have advantages over the Turbo units in that the 180s are a more modern train designed with a proper air-con system from the start with no saloon windows and doors which don't open within the saloon area letting the warm air in.  HSTs benefit from the same sealed windows, and if the door is working the saloon is separated from the outside air at all times.  Also, HSTs usually have at least one engine switched on powering the train supply (or, if not they are on a shore supply) so the air-con is running constantly.  Turbo units have a many more occasions throughout the day where engines are switched off, for environmental reasons, so the system is shutting down/powering up a lot more often and having to deal with whatever the temperature inside has risen to in the meantime.

Not making excuses, but those all add to the inefficiency of the system.  It's very disappointing that there is no real improvement over last year with reliability, but when you get on a carriage where it is working it makes a huge difference, so hopefully the engineers will be able to fix the reliability - as they have done with the cab cooling system which was just as unreliable last year, but much better this year.

What is difficult to comprehend is the fact they have 24 years to sort out the air-conditioning on 158s.   There are different systems because some TOCs 158s are OK, but the others don't seem to follow.      FGW and ATW are prime examples.

We know that SWT 158/9s air con is good and I think I've read somewhere that EMT's 158s air con is good as well, both Stagecoach TOCs.

I agree with GrahamE that all the FGW staff that I come into contact with are absolutely wonderful, but it is a week now since I made the original post on this thread and still all the SWT 159s air conditioning is working fine and apart from the one occasion that I mentioned a while ago, all the FGW 158s air conditioning is still unserviceable; I am beginning to think that management are not listening, if SWT can keep theirs going why don't FGW send theirs overnight to Salisbury or Eastleigh or wherever the maintenance is done for a bit of TLC. As far as I remember, when the 158s were converted to 159s the only alterations were to seating layout to make a first class area and installation of toilet retention tanks, so if one operator can cope others should be able to. SWT website instructs passengers who notice any problem with air conditioning to report it to staff, I can imagine that if FGW did the same there would be a very long queue at each member of staff. Has anybody tried reporting to the Purple Clothed Ambassadors?

I think SWT have a different system rather than FGW having a U?S one.    Surely FGW (and ATW) would investigate the procuration of the same system.

It's a management thing. Of the top ten most reliable train fleets in the country, SWT alone run five or six. These include the Class 158 and 159 dmus which are more reliable in terms of miles per technical incident than many more modern electric fleets.

SWT can't afford to have trains sitting down on the approaches to Waterloo in the rush hour - so their maintenance approach is consistent whether the depot is Wimbledon, Salisbury, Bournemouth or the Siemens facility at Northam.

So they should be reliable.  It's long been said that SWT have more 158s and 159s than they need to cover their daily diagrams helped recently by a number of DMU diagrams that have gone over to EMU operation.
It also explains why SWT can and, in the past, have subleased units to EMT, Northern and FGW. 

I think I can honestly say that so far during this (admittedly brief) hot spell I have yet to get on an evening (local) train from Reading on which the aircon was working..........this despite the windows all being locked shut.......I guess it's one way to lose weight?  8)

I find the air handling units on the 166 perverse to say the least; in the winter the vent fans are running full blast making the carriages cold, some times too cold and a make lot of noise, in this hot spell the carriages are nice and quite I must admit but that's because the vent fans are not running and the hopper windows are shut.  The 166's cooling plant seems to be effective between -5 C and 10 C 

FGW wasted money "fixing" the aircon when what they should have done is converted the 166 windows to the 165 type at least the 165's "aircon" works at 70 mph  ;D

By contrast, I've just travelled on the 19:57 PAD-OXF and set 166214 has two carriages out of the three with a working system - but the windows were open so most of the benefit was lost.  I reached out for my trusty carriage key and resolved the problem though.

I've done the same thing.  Walked through the train to check the temperature, expecting to have to open windows and ended up locking windows on 2 vehicles because the air con system was working.  I've even had passengers trying to close windows on some services!! 
The trains were nearly empty at the time so I'm wondering how effective it is when it's heavily loaded??

On Tuesday July 8 I travelled on the 10:06 from Foregate St to Paddington, operated by a 180, unit number 106.

The air conditioning in the coach (C) that I was travelling in was obviously unwell - it was cycling on and off every 3 seconds. I pointed this out to the train manager, who apologised and said that he couldn't do anything about it (understandably).

I also reported this via the 'contact us' page on the FGW website. I've just (Tue Jul 29 - three weeks downstream) received an anodyne reply.

My feeling is that the 'contact us' form is pretty pointless - but that if a number of passengers have flagged up issues with the air conditioning on specific vehicles during the day, then it means that maintenance effort can be usefully targetted.

A question then - should I be sending this sort of comment and, if so, where should it go to? Perhaps FGW could have an email address airconditioning@firstgreatwestern.co.uk (or even hot_train@firstgreatwestern.co.uk!).

And for understandable reasons, I'm not going to bother sending that one via 'contact us'.

The onboard staff can enter the fault in the defect book carried on the train. (One in each cab.)  I'm pretty sure he only meant he couldn't do any faultfinding or defect rectification.  I don't really think as a passenger you need to do any more than tell onboard staff - surely we should not have to duplicate their responsibilities?   Is this really what the contact us form is for?

Paul

There is also an app on company blackberrys (ies?) which you can submit faults to maintenance controller straight away.

Think its called defect logger. Its original purpose was for onboard staff to submit faults on the fly so that priority faults could be planned for at end of service.

I have sent details of faults, like power sockets, to their twitter account.  They have always been acknowledged but of course I don't know if they were fixed.

I must admit, I almost fainted aboard 166205 earlier!  Not due to the heat, as the lovely summer temperatures have taken a slight dip over the last couple of days, though still quite mild and muggy, but due to shock that the whole unit had Air-Con that was working beautifully and all windows were locked shut!  All three carriages!  ;)

Just goes to show that it can work.