Great Western Coffee Shop

A question raised with me several times by TransWilts users who work occasional overnight shifts in Swindon.  "Why can't I get a day return ticket when I go up to Swindon on an evening train and come back on the 06:12 - I'm up there for just as long as people who go up on the morning peak train and come back on the 17:36 or 18:50, yet I have to pay more.  And I'm not even travelling on a busy train like they are"

It's a good question - why can't a day return be valid for a day (24 hours) from the time the journey is started?

I notice that First Capital Connect are now starting to provide tickets valid from 2 p.m. one day until noon the next day - see (here) (http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Royston/Overnighter-rail-ticket-for-weekend-trips-between-Cambridge-and-London-Kings-Cross-launched-by-First-Capital-Connect-20140708124917.htm).

Can we expect similar tickets across the FGW network, and for use each day of the week?

That's a very interest concept and I too have often wondered why it's not valid for 24 hours. But I guess it is to stop people buying a ticket at say 8AM and returning the following day at 8PM (36 hours)

You're right however that it stinks for those who work the antisocial hours doing work that all the 9-5s take for granted (Cleaners, Depot Staff, Engineers, Medical, Call Centre etc)

The railway clock can be a funny thing. In the past I have come across 2 anomalies from staff members of different TOCs who didn't like how I was using a ticket based on the purchase date.

One was an FGW TM who didn't like me using a Bath Spa - Cardiff Central FDS (First Anytime Day Single) purchased on for arguments sake 07/07/2014 but was travelling on 08/07/2014.

What had actually happened is I had purchased the ticket at 22:30 on the 7th July for travel on the 01:15AM Service on the 8th July... ::) The TM was applying the rule of: "Valid on Date Shown" which was the previous day by the time I was on the train. An argument ensued on the definition of validity with regards to the Railway Clock which finishes at 2AM. The response provided was the train arrived in Cardiff after 2AM so that meant the ticket was valid as far as Newport at a best guess. Looking forward to a disrupted flight to Alicante I recall wondering why he was picking this argument at 01:15AM.

But I pulled up the NRCoC on my mobile and showed the rule that allows customers to complete their journey on trains after the validity of their ticket has ended. Provided that they started making their journey when the ticket was valid... <-- That doesn't make sense does it? I thought not... Doesn't make sense to me either... That would mean you would need to use the first available trains which might actually take LONGER to get to your end destination. Virgin Trains vs. London Midland being a good example.

The other occasion happened when a member of GreaterAnglia staff challenged my use of an Advance Ticket. They were an RPI. I had 2 tickets. Frome - Z1256 and Harold Wood - Southend Victoria. I recall it being a Thursday Morning but the previous day I had suffered significant delays on FGW Services into Paddington. I made the mistake of being again fobbed off and sent to Liverpool Street to become their problem. I got to Liverpool Street to find the station closed (Saw that one coming a mile away) and decided to sit in the Little 24 Bar nearby.

Using the "Disrupted, continue journey as soon as possible rule in the NRCoC" I continued on the First Train in the morning to Southend Victoria. RPIs were out in Force and I generated quite the audience. A few thought I was chancing the First Class on a Standard Ticket. After much explaining and quoting the Headcode of the erroneous delayed train and showing it's stats on my phone, they changed their focus to my split tickets.

[Harold Wood I have been told by Ticket Office Staff at Liverpool Street is acceptable to use for a Boundary Zone 6 Fare when travelling to SOV.]

As the Boundary Zones for Southend Victoria do not exist and only go as far as Prittlewell. A rather sneaky Easement allows Doubleback to Harold Wood via Shenfield which is probably what LST Ticket Office staff have clocked on to. Using that I blew the RPIs argument right out the water.

Whilst the above incidents were isolated 'unlucky trout' examples. It just goes to show how complicated things are already. 24 Hour Validity on CDRs/SDRs I can sadly only see being abused much to the annoyance of those who would greatly benefit. So it seems that the rules are based on the majority of daytime and peak travel and NOT geared towards those who take the antisocial hours work... ::)

It stinks... But then so does charging a First Class Anytime Single on a train when a Standard Class Super Off-Peak Single is also valid...!

When you think further, a monthly return is valid for 30 / 31 days from its start date, when you buy a Manchester tram ticket it's valid for 90 minutes from then you purchase it, and when you buy a parking ticket for an hour it's valid from an hour when you buy it and not to the end of the current hour.

So that day return ticket is the exception to the rule - uniquely it seems that it runs out at the end of the current day, and not a day after it starts.    So let's simplify the system - let's bring the day return ticket into line  ;D

Why are there even 'Day Return' tickets anyway? Generally, you pay more for flexibility ('advance' vs 'off-peak' vs 'anytime'), and the main difference between a day return and a month return is the latter is flexible on the return date, whereas a day return is only valid on the specified date. Hence, instead of the 'Day Return' why don't they have a ticket where one date is specified for the outward journey and another for the return journey? The two dates could be the same, effectively the day-return product, or different, in which case the passenger would only be able to travel in one direction on one day and only in the other direction on the other day. That sounds like it should work. Effectively, once purchased it would seem to offer an equivelent degree of flexibility as the current 'Day Return' and hence should cost the same, right?

Or you could do that, that sounds like it should work too. (and the return portion of a Metrolink ticket is still valid for the rest of the day, isn't it, not just for 90mins?)

You see this abroad.  In Poland a day ticket on the buses/trams is actually valid for 24hr.  The buses and trams have a stamping machine where the time is printed on the ticket after first use.  Same in Italy, a train ticket (for a non-intercity) is valid for two months from purchase and a specified number of hours after it is first stamped (the time varies depending on average journey lengths).  Makes perfect sense, but would require us to fit stations or trains with equipment to mark tickets.

My understanding is that DAY returns are sold for shorter journeys where there's less chance of the tickets being checked ... an encouragement to the unscrupulous to actually pay something for their travel both ways, by having the relative cost of the second journey low compared to the risk of being caught.   For longer journeys, there's a higher chance of being checked and hence period returns are issued.

One date out and another specific date back?   Potential nightmare in terms of ticket changes; there's a significant people who travel out to work / stay away and only decide which day to come back when their work is done, or may decide to stay an extra night if they're tired after a long week's work / may have to rush home when they hadn't intended to due to domestic pressures.

There's some logic in selling all tickets as singles, and reducing the nightmare queues that would generate due to extra transactions by having a quantity discount on multiple tickets bought at once.  So ... most expensive ticket in a purchase, full price ... all others in the same purchase 25% discount.   Needs some thought.   However

Melksham to London via Swindon

Currently
157, 62.50, 50 return (peak / off-peak / super off-peak)
90, 37, 29 single (peak / off-peak / super off-peak)

Two singles (purchased to make up a return) would become
157.50, 64.75, 50.75
Tickets for two days purchased together, or for two people together, would become
146.25, 60.10, 47.10

Doesn't work as well for fares such as Melksham to Bristol where a single is 9.90 (no off peak fares) and a return is 10.80 off-peak and 10.90 peak - but then you end up asking why the second journey is in effect costed at just 90p

Ah, interesting.

I was suggesting one date out and another specific date back as a replacement for the DAY RETURN, not the period one. Thus the month return would still be available for those who haven't decided on the specific date when they are coming back.

The 'one date out and another specific date back' ticket would be a half-way house in terms of flexibility between the fully-flexible month return and the booked-trains only offered by buying two advance singles.

Re Metrolink. Sometimes its cheaper just to buy a travelcard as I found out once from Manchester CZ to Alty and "end of the line mate".

There are singles designed for the people who travel at odd times and these are called Carnets. However getting them issued correctly is all part of the fun. I think it works out at 10 for the price of 8 singles or something.

I was under the impression that the railway day ended at 03:59 or is that TfL?

Now lets take the 0134 and 0334 departing on 07/07/14 PAD - RDG. A CDR/SDR ticket issued on 06/07/14 is it valid on the 0134 and the 0334?? I would say yes as I believe the railway day has not ended, however if you go by the "valid on date shown" then it is not.
Similarly an advance dated CDR/SDR for 07/07/14 is it valid on 23:49 06/07/14 PAD-RDG by reason of the "old if a train starts after 22:00 rule".

Savers / Off peaks / whatever they are called this week (SVR/SSR) Generally are only issued for journeys over 50miles (Not as the crow flies). There are some exceptions to that rule.

The railway day changed a couple of years ago from finishing at 0230 to finishing at 0400, in order to align with TfL. A ticket dated 06/07/14 would be valid until 0400 07/07/14. Travelling early in the morning it may often be cheaper to buy an Off-Peak Day Return for the previous date as a ticket for the 'correct date' would have to be an Anytime Day Return on many flows.

Railway day ends at 0429 not 0400.

Always assuming you remember to do that before the midnight hour, as they aren't going to be selling them after 0001...

Paul

All this deep analysis on CDRs etc is all very interesting for us pedants, BUT:

I would suggest that the real reason that CDRs exist as they do is simply because they are an historic railway product which has never been abandoned with the application of a more modern approach. Surely they were introduced to encourage day excursion traffic to the likes of Blackpool or Bognor as a way of stimulating off-peak and optional travel for Victorian workers. In those times they were just that - a DAY (+ evening) excursion. In modern times the rules have been more formalised and quite probably the validity is now extended into the early hours which did not perhaps apply before.

We all acknowledge the ticketing is too complex and the logical approach is simply to have a form of peak/off peak pricing which would probably be based on single tickets. In The Netherlands rail pricing is essentially single tickets (distance based) with some minor exceptions. Tickets are stamped at the start of travel so that the piece of card has no inherent validity period prior to travel.   

And we have a similar system to stamping before travel. Its called a carnet. However how many people get caught out without putting a date in the box?
Problem being you have to engrave the date using a biro as the ink wont stay on the coated ticket stock.

Other brands of ball point pen are also available.  :-X

Talk of the railway day finishing at 4 or 4.30am is curious. I have booked tickets on several occasions online for Clapham Junction to Gatwick Airport departing around 3-4am and found this is more expensive than during the day. I can appreciate that travelling after 10am or whatever time off peak starts is cheaper, but I can't see why a train in the early hours could possibly be defined as peak. Anti social hours maybe.

I have bought these tickets by selecting the time of the train online without reservation. The ticket does not specify that I have to travel at a certain time. Reading the comments above, would I be correct in assuming that I could book a ticket for the previous day (at a cheaper price) and travel at 3am the following day?

That is what you can do. Although in the case of Clapham Junction to Gatwick there are no Single Off Peak Day fares. And if you were to buy the Off Peak Day Return for the journey CLJ-GTW at 0309, dated the previous evening, you'd be unable to use the return portion as there is no service that would get you back to CLJ for 0429.

However, although the railway day ends at 0429, it starts at 0001. You can buy an Off Peak Day Return online for the 0309 from Clapham Junction to Gatwick Airport dated for the actual date of outward travel and return on any service, including morning peak services as the return portion is unrestricted, up until the 0305 from GTW the following morning.

I personally think another term is needed to refer to the early hours of the morning (before the morning peak) and late evenings (after the evening peak). The term off-peak currently covers both those anti-social periods and the time during the day between the peaks. The three different periods of 'off-peak' are very different (in my experience at least) in terms of passenger loadings.

While I can see the practicality of that particular example, it does perhaps give 'new' or 'occasional' rail travellers the impression that the rules of rail ticketing are based on Mornington Crescent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mornington_Crescent_(game)).  ::)

As many will be aware, London Underground's ticket machines are somewhat basic in their setup.  A Travelcard purchased after 00:00 but on or before 04:29 is issued with the previous day's date.  The time on the tickets is the current time plus 24hr (so 01:30 is printed as 25:30).  However the credit card receipts are printed with the real date and time.

I'm not sure (except to take additional money off travellers) why they programmed the machines like this.  Surely it would have made more sense to issue a ticket for the actual day of purchase when the ticket is issued after 00:00.  After all, why would someone opt to buy a ticket that is valid for 4hr 30mins when they can get one for 28hr 30mins for the same price?  And it would've saved some unnecessary programming of these machines to mock the wrong date.

All incredibly interesting discussions here.

Now lets throw things around slightly.

You are using the return portion of a CDR. You board the train at 03:45 and the train arrives at it's destination at 05:01 for arguments sake. I can think of a few very specific examples where this may be the case. (Sleepers is definitely one of them)

So is one to assume that the clause in the NRCoC would allow you to continue to your journey if you were already mid transit? But the validity ended whilst you're inside the actual moving train?

Is there such a clause in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage? I believe the only time you can continue your journey beyond a ticket's time restrictions or end of validity is when you have been subject to delays.

Otherwise, in the case of the return portion of an Off Peak Day Return (CDR), it's valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 0429 the following day, by which time all travel must be completed.

There appears to be no exemption for the sleepers either.  What happens at 0429 when your ticket expires, e.g. with a super off peak single printed as "On Date Shown"?

When the railway day finished at 0230 the rule was that you were able to complete any travel started prior to 0230. That changed when the railway day changed to finishing at 0430.

That's slightly tenuous and I think I misunderstood the clause I was referring to. You are right, there is such a clause for delay but also the following extract is in the NRCoC (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf)


My emphasis in bold.

The vague wording doesn't exactly help but my interpretation is of the following:

• Reasonably complete a Journey in 24 hours. Penzance - Thurso being an obvious one. Even with the use of sleepers you may find you take 3 days to complete this one.
• Taking the 21:29 Taunton - London Paddington service and then resuming the journey at around 5AM to Norwich having stopped in a 24 Hour McDonalds / Hotel Somewhere
• Starting a Journey and then finding you have a significant gap between Last and First Service (such as the above) and decide to hold travel until as near as dammit First Service due to basic needs of Sleep etc

Also Accommodation is not defined explicitly as a Hotel. So that could very well be a 24 Hour McDonalds, A relative/friends living space, Your Office or other establishment open 24 hours.

So it all comes down to the wording and how that should be interpreted. For me it is vague enough that it could be exploited in such a way. But I wouldn't want to risk it unless I was mid journey and caught up between Last/First Service.

I'm going to Southend Victoria tonight and have a risky 13 minute connection from Bus to Train. So if I find myself on the 21:29 using this condition at Liverpool Street Gateline I'll let you know how I get on :D

Well I just jinxed that big time... 1A35 Penzance - London Paddington is 1 Hour Late. Having been started from Par 52 minutes late it has only just arrived at Totnes. Currently sat in Coach L of 1A37 knowing it's going to be one of "those" journeys... ::) :-X  :o