Great Western Coffee Shop

This is a rumour, and is not confirmed......

Apparently i have heard 2 rumours the 1st One is that

1. First Great Western will be split again like it was e.g wessex, thames, and great western, and the great western section which includes all London Padd Services to Penzance, Bristol, Exeter, Cardiff, Plymouth, Weston, will be take over by Virgin, and also Virgin will take over from London Paddington to Hereford ( Cotswold Line ), and will double the cotswold line, but it will close for 2 months, but this is just a rumour...

2. National Express are planning to take over the whole first great western franchise..

Apparently ive heard the DfT are planning to do this in May or October...

I have heard 1. but not 2. Very important to note again that these are just rumours.

yeah just to note these are rumours !

Second Hand News (http://www.takeforum.com/forum/images/smiles/band.gif)

I have heard from a reliable source (based on what i've been told previously), that SWT have offered to take over running Portsmouth - Bristol/Cardiff, Weymouth and Exeter area services.

They currently have a surplus of DMUs (for the next 2 years). I know that SWT have wanted to do this before - I wonder if this time they will get the chance...

Dreams (http://www.takeforum.com/forum/images/smiles/band.gif)

I'd love to see virgin run the hst services, but it's all dreams :P

i'm sure the dft would rather have there ^1bn than bother doing anything about fgw

Virgin running HSTs would be a distaster.

IMO FGW run a very good high speed service, just not so on West.

I don't believe any of it anyway  :P

Never Going Back Again (http://www.takeforum.com/forum/images/smiles/band.gif)

I think that TerminalJunkie is determined to list all the songs from a certain Fleetwood Mac album.....

I wondered how many I'd have to get through before someone spotted it! :D

and i heard a rumor that i am going to win the lottery on Saturday!!!!!!!!!

well it may just be a rumour, but staff are talking about it on first great western spoke to one of them today, and they say it's going around, that virgin may take over..

BBC Points West reported last night (8/1) that the FGW franchise is under investigation by the DFT whatever that means.

Please please let this happen...I have been saying for two years now that SWT should take over the running of these lines. It just makes so much sense, especially in the case of Cardiff-Portsmouth as it runs over a good part of SWT's territory. After all it is called SOUTH WEST trains so why not let it run trains that run in the South West leaving FGW to do what it does a pretty good job of and thats running Inter-city services.

Don't know what to suggest with the Thames side of the operation. Maybe those who use these services could come up with some suggestions?

Errr, let's just wait a minute. How could the DaFT appoint anyone to run the franchise without a full blown tender process. That's what happened when GNER gave up the ghost. The DaFT could either sack FGW and run the franchise themselves for a periof (like SET), or let FGW run it on a management contract (like GNER) for a year whilst they refranchise. Presumably the latter is more preferable, as the effort involved is significantly less.

How credible is this... really?

Yes, of a huge 6 158s a day (which 2 of which are covering the 159 programme, then there are maintenance requirements). And 2 159s away at any one time, that's 4 159s left, etc... not many!

Sorry, I honestly can't see it happening within the next 10 years, if at all.

I reckon that anymore of these First are going to lose the franchise runour postings should be banned.  Every day I come on here and read this drivel. For Pete's sake let's have some reasonable debate!


Sorry to anyone called Pete! :D :D :D

What a load of sh1t! If this were going to happen then the franchise would have to be re-let, FGW would have to be given notice and the whole tender process startet, it wouldn't be simply "given" to Virgin!!!

Every day???? I don't think we have you know so I don't think they should be banned, this is after all a discussion site. It would also be appreciated if you could tone down the language a bit as to some who post here Christ actually means something. Whats he done to you to deserve you using his name as a profanity?

Do I smell a troll? Most defenders of the faith that I know would write "His" when referring to Our Lord if they were genuinely offended rather than merely posting for a wind-up. Interesting too that the euphemism "sh1t" immediately above passed without comment.

For what it's worth, I personally think any change of franchise within five years at least is so unikely as to be barely worth talking about. I do however defend the right of individuals to freely express their honestly felt opinions on ANY subject, and would therefore hate to see this topic closed altogether.

ok,well it may only just be a rumour, but there has been talk of it, i know many guards who work for great western and there has been talk of it amongst them.. and if this is a discussion site, why swear ??

Looking back at the members who have posted on this topic, I dont believe that any of them fit the description of "troll."

It is a heated debate though, and one which the moderation team will keep an eye on.

You are absolutely right Ptolemy, I should have spelt the word 'his' with a capital 'H' so thank you for pointing that out.

I'm not a troll as many who post to this site will testify even if they don't agree with everything I post.

As for not making comment about the language sometimes used on the site, that is not for me as a moderator to step in on unless the language used is very strong and could be deemed offensive to people who read posts on this site. We all know what those words are.

Using the Lord's name in vain is something that I don't feel is necessary to be used to convey a point and I am personally offended by it when I see it or hear it hence my decision to step in. I don't expect everyone to agree with what I have written as everyone is entitled to their own opinion as we live in a free world but I am entitled to say 'hey' when it happens.

You don't actually know that he was, though. For all we know he might have been referring to Fred Christ, who used to play basketball for the New York Knicks.
Now, where's my Devil's Advocate smiley... Ahh, this will do: (http://www.takeforum.com/forum/images/smiles/satanlook.gif)

trust you  :D

Yeah right on. and there has been talk of me spending an hour behind the bike shed with Jodie Marsh but it aint true! :D

Sorry to Jodie for using her name in vain. ;D ;D ;D ;D

 :o You dare to offend Saint Jodie?  :o

Burn the infidel's embassy!!

Have we gotten off topic here or what?

Can I suggest that we keep religion away from the discussions unless it has something to do with the thread in question ... (so it would be valid if we were talking about whether or not special trains should run to take crowds to see Billy Graham, Jodie Foster or the Pope.)

And let's ease up on picking on people's use of language while we're at it.  I know I'm a bit of a culprid there sometimes, but even I don'e always get my smelling write, right?  Thanks folks!

I hope the rumour is true, but perfect timing!

First have just about finished applying their "dynamic lines" to all their HS trains!

They are starting on that dreradful livery for the "West" fleet. The Wessex one looked nicer, and you could actually read what was being said!

In my opinion, the new livery looks wrong on the Thames Turbos, the Thames Train/ FGWL livery looked "loads" better.

It will all have to be replaced. All that money wasted!

What is it with First Group and "Dynamic Lines?"

But it is just a rumour.....

The fleet would look much better in plain blue like the power cars! Mind you, on the MKIII coaches the all over blue is painted and the dynamic lines are vinyl so if they did lose the franchise then they could just take off the dynamic lines!

Personally I think the FGW livery is very smart, and shows an identity. Meanwhile Wessex trains simply advertised places and the livery applied to the 158s wasn't exactly lavish. FGW interiors are also better. Pink and Grey really are quite depressing colours, whereas blue is uplifting. At least FGW havn't spent all the money on instantly reliverying their fleet.
 
If the franchise is lost, it won't simple be 'given' to Virgin, what would Virgin bring apart from maybe buying crap new trains, or perhaps making HSTs 4 car  ::)

Any franchise change would make the situation worse as its very fragile as it is!

Very true, I posted somewhere else that everything would be put on hold if they lost the franchise, including staff recruitment!

I like the HST livery (well its ok).

I hate the West livery- it is dreadful compared to Wessex's promotions.

I hated the "Aphaline" livery and the PinkGrey seats as well. Blue is better.

My own thoughts are that First is making a Right Pigs Ear out of this franchise, however It would seem unlikely for DfT to take back the Keys as First Haven't gone knocking on DfT's door asking for "MORE"*

As for Virgin taking over WELL JUST REMEMBER that VIRGIN hiked the CROSS COUNTRY FARES UP MORE than any other TOC did.
And the Vomet Comet's are awful unit's with a rather unpleasent toilet problem which means that leakage from the toilet vacuum pipes is getting under the carpets, at least on some units. NO wonder they HUM.

* Sorry to the estate of Mr C .Dickens for any copywrite problem.

Wessex livery better ..you must have lost the plot!!!!......that horrible visit Bristol livery, the 158 with Richard trevithick plastered over it complete with a 8 foot high steam engine ,the pale blue dogbox,and the 150s in maroon with big maps on them the local graffitti artists could do better ........and to top it all the Awlfuline 158 with red/pink seats in it which is probably the most uncomfortable unit of all time

Sure, they might have increase fares, but dear god they transformed the franchise from what it used to be, into one of the most succesful if not the most succesful franchises in the country.

I still regard the Voyagers as some of the best stock in the country, give them a couple of extra carriages and dear god they'd be awesome. I fail to see what you winge on about. Sure they have/ had a few design issues, but these have been ironed out overtime if and were possible.

When ATW used to run their Pnz-Man Picc service back in the good old days, I used to take that train up to Crewe over a Vomit comet even though it took over an hour longer! 158 vs Vomit comet???? 158 wins hands down!

Right - further look at how SWT won't be taking over the Pompey Cardiff route (although I have now heard it from one of my sources, I suspect they got it from here) - all comparisons are SX:

Class 158 fleet
11 units, of which 5 are allocated for usage until further notice (next December).
6 remaining units to play around with, 2 are currently away in the East Midlands covering EM Connect duties.
4 remaning after that, of which 2 are generally under maintenance. Until the 159 refurbishment programme is finished, I suspect the remaning 2 will all be allocated for usage on West of England line services.

Class 159 fleet
30 units, of which 24 are allocated for usage until further notice (next December).
6 remaining units to play around with of which 4 are generally under maintenance. There are 2 units currently away under refurbishment which gives us 1 unit to play around with as a remainder. Also, some of the 158 and 159s are currently at Eastleigh for PIS mods.

Should SWT take it over - I suspect that the same old problems would remain. With the WoE upgrade program under consideration currently unit requirements will increase by about 3 159s I suspect, and 2 of the current 6-coach 159s into London Waterloo will get enhanced with 4 158s to make them 10-car trains - this is very much in the future though as 10 coach or longer trains are not currently permitted to stop at any station beyond Basingstoke on the West of England line.

Could FGW sublet routes or even the entire "West Local" franchise to another TOC? I know that Virgin used to sub contract Wessex to run a couple of routes which didn't fit into their masterplan. Ideas on a postcard?

It's entirely possible but if I highly doubt FGW are willing to admit defeat that easily.

Seems unfair whilst we are stretched for stock, SWT have it lying around.

Note to any DafT members reading - Give some of them to us...

Why don't FGW hire a couple of their 158's, short term fix!

I'll be the most surprised man going if First keep this Franchise for it's due term, which I think is 7 years and a possible 3 year extension. Well it's almost 2 years down with 5 to go. (Sorry if I got the length of franchise wrong), Well there's a Rumour also going aroung that FGW's passenger TAXI bill for missed connections and cancelled trains is almost ^2million since April 2007.

It's a set 10 years i believe, i don't think theres any performance extensions planned as part of it

Its 7 years with a 3 year extension dependant on performance-so yes, 7 years!

I think its 7 and a half years with a 2 and a half years extension.

Nope, def 7 with 3 year extension.

The way they are going, no more than 7 years!

About the livery:

I just thought Wessex liveries were more imaginative.

I did hate the Wessex insides!!!!! FGW are better at that.

Yep, spot on Vacman, it is as you say 7 and 3. I must be thinking of another recently awarded franchise.

Sorry shazz ......BUT Voyagers are probably the worst train ever made,

Defo- they are terrible!

Well, dare I put 3 numbers into a combination to make 142??? think i'd prefer a voyager to one of them!

And for that one reason I always wondered why so many thought that Virgin XC were the be all and end all of rail franchises. They got rid of the entire HST fleet and replaced them with tin cans.

Someone sucks at wikipedia sources then :P

Time to edit away! (anyone got a link confirming this?)

I still stand by my decision of calling voyagers some of the best stock the country has, as from lots of use of them, i still think they're incredibly good compared to hst's

I see the tin cans  almost everyday, time to start a new sport  "vomet comet spotting"
Last week I saw a 5 car Vomet Comet with all 5 engines working, first I'd seen in months, normal to see 5 car sets with at least 1 engine NOT working (or on Tick over only).

Half of 4 car sets are also without 1 engine, have seen a 5 car set running into Exeter on just 2 engines, think it was then Cancelled and didn't work to Plymouth.

Everyones allowed there own opinion, you think they suck, i think they rock.

Just because you don't think they do, and seem to think i should agree with you, doesn't mean i'm going to.

Deal with it.

And so you should Shazz. I've seen on other forums that many do prefer Voyagers over an HST. I just feel that it was an opportunity missed to provide a really decent piece of rolling stock for XC IMHO. I admit I'm very biased towards HSTs and they are the best train every to be built in this country, still going over 30 years later. I do like the accelaration on a Voyager though...they don't hang around.

if only virgin added another 3/4 coaches (voyager/superv) to each of them. they'd be practically perfect for most of the stock round the UK IMO (but granted they probably couldnt afford a lot more stock than they paid for, after all ^1bn is no "small" stock order)

And i'm fairly sure they'd still be in command of the XC franchise as it is now if they did.

They don't hang around?, now that depends on how many engines are running.

I also like voyagers.
The only problem is the smell.
I can cope with no tables. I actually prefer it as there are more seats overall.
They do need more carriges to, I think, make them all 7 carriages. No difference between Super/Voyager as that cause problems.
The refurbed HST's are still better though.
And I like the noise they make but nothing compared to a Valenta.

You know one thing Arriva XC could do with spending some money on and thats fixing the smelley toilets on the Voyagers. That would be a great place to start. There must be something that can be done ???

The smelly toilets is something to do with the effluent being retained and not slung out like on an HST, tHE 175/180S smell exactly the same, .sorry voyagers are still crap, uncomfortable seats,horrible cream interior and the most annoying continual clunking noises all the time as well as the smelly loos.
In my opinion the best NEW Type unt is the 170 by a country mile,

Other trains with Retention tanks don't have smelly toilets, such as The East Coast MK IVs, the SWT class 159s, the FGW Sleeper cars.

As I'm led to believe the problem with Voyager toilets is something not nice, the toilet works by Vacuum, and to withstand the pressure (OK lack of Pressure, it's a Vacuum) the waste pipes are corrugated to add strength, the Bends ARE NOT, and so the bends are sealed with Silicon, which is leaking and effluent is leaking down the outside of the pipes and getting trapped in the flooring.
IT'S No Wonder they HUM.

The air-con intake is also situated near to the retention tanks.

Not to mention all the stupid beeping noises and that annoying noise they make when braking! 170's are by far the best modern units.

The brakes on 220s are the most interesting think on them ;)

I wonder if having all the reading lights on reduces the power from the engines?

What regenerative brakes, that's almost a breach of description, sure is a waste to loose all that Heat (Energy) from the roof load banks.

Having a Reading light ON will not effect the power from the Engine, but it will reduce traction power by the amount the reading light uses.
Some HST drivers turn off the ETS (Electric Train Supply) when climbing banks, most likely when running on 1 power car only.
PS it's the Roof load bank brakes that caused all the problems at Dawlish with Sea Water.

What?

You don't just turn off the electical supply. Besides, the rear power car provides ETS so unless the driver physcially stops, walks to the back of the train, turns it off, back to the front etc

Public trains will always have the ETS on!

My Error it was a trick to get a bit more Speed out of Loco Hauled trains, however I have know HSTs on ONE power car to have NO ETS from Newton Abbot to Plymouth.

On an HST the buffet boilers work of the ETS.

And the aircon. Hence why the fans 'whiiir' when revving up.

To be fair First's refurbished 158's look almost identical to SWT's refurbished 159's bar the extra carriage and different colour schemes.

They were both refurbd at Wabtec uuup North ;)

Doncaster :P