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Title: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: JayMac on April 21, 2014, 14:15:02 Having heard rumours of a change in the discount structure for GroupSave from May 18th 2014 I asked FGW via Twitter if there were to be changes. What I'd heard is that the discount will change to be 1/3 off pr person for groups of three four or five travelling together. Instead of the current three or four for the price of two.
My tweet to FGW was forwarded to National Rail Enquiries who responded thus: Quote @FGW @JustinMcAree Hi there, there will be changes to the GroupSave in May but we do not have the full details at the moment. https://twitter.com/nationalrailenq/status/458227503698804736Could be a right pain for people such as Community Rail Partnerships who have produced material advertising GroupSave discounts, only to find there will be changes to the validity/discount structure. Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: grahame on April 21, 2014, 15:12:57 I hadn't heard and we're just doing a literature run ...
So on a 10 pound fare, current prices: 10, 20, 20, 20, 30, 40, 40, 40 pounds for 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 or 8 people what you're suggesting may happen: 10, 20, 20, 26.66, 33.33, 40, 46.66, 53.33 and pounds for 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 or 8 people So that's a rise of 33% in what a group of 4 or 8 would pay, and a rise of 11% in what five would pay, a rise of 16% for a group of 7 and a rise of . And (what a surprise) nothing goes lower. Need to check literature / ask before print run. And if true, looks like Santa's costs will inflate by a third in December and mean he'll struggle to break even unless he passes the rises on. Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: JayMac on April 21, 2014, 15:42:16 Whilst NRE have confirmed there will be a change, I only have unconfirmed rumours of the specifics. I'll keep my eye on this one though, and as soon as I hear/find anything concrete I'll post.
Should anyone else know the details then do please post, or if you are staff and would rather not post publicly, then PM me. Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: ChrisB on April 21, 2014, 16:01:17 NRE are lying - they must have details agreed by now, otherwise publicity won't be ready....less than a month away??
Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: JayMac on April 21, 2014, 16:09:11 I suspect the dead hand of ATOC. Where things move at a glacial pace. All it takes is one TOC to disagree on the wording and delays in releasing the information occur.
However, fares changes should be in systems 4 weeks ahead of the 'go live'. Four weeks out would've been yesterday, but as this weekend has included two public holidays, systems may not be updated until the middle of the week ahead. I've also heard rumours of a fare increase that could affect me, but again I can't get a straight answer at the moment. Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: SDS on April 21, 2014, 19:52:08 There has been a big brief about it in the weekly retail circular, (3 ish pages long)
To make it simple, its now a flat 34% discount on any groups that have 3 people or more in them. Quote GroupSave Changes ^ From Sunday 18 May 2014 From Sunday 18 May 2014, GroupSave will be simplified to a 34% discount on the adult fare and extended to groups of 3 to 9 people travelling together on participating train company (TOC) services. All tickets purchased up to and including 17 May 2014 for groups of 3 or 4 people travelling together on any date of travel (including travel on or after 18 May) should be issued with the existing GroupSave 3 (GS3), GroupSave 4 (GS4) and GroupSave Child for ^1 (GSC) discounts. All tickets sold with the existing GS3, GS4 and GSC discounts for travel on or after 18 May 2014 are still valid for travel. All tickets purchased on or after 18 May 2014 should be issued with the new GroupSave (GS3) discount. Changes from 18 May 2014 GroupSave (GS3) ^ GS3 discount status code will be retained ^ Description will change to GroupSave ^ 34% discount on adult fares ^ Group size will change to 3 to 9 adults ^ Legend printed on the ticket will change to GSV GroupSave 4 (GS4) & GroupSave Child for ^1 (GSC) ^ No longer valid for sale from Sunday 18 May 2014 ^ GS4 and GSC may still be visible in retail systems ^ this is only to ensure that tickets sold on or before 17 May for travel on or after 18 May can be collected via Ticket on Departure. Validity There is no change to the ticket types that the GroupSave discount applies to. Group Size GroupSave discounts will be valid for groups of 3 to 9 adults travelling together. Where flat fares for accompanying children are offered by a TOC, these can be issued along with GroupSave discounted Off-Peak tickets for adult groups of 3 or more people. Where there is no flat fare for children the usual child fare is payable. As per the current GroupSave offer, where a group size of 2 adults + 1 child or 1 adult + 2 children are travelling together and GroupSave discounted tickets offers the best value fare for their journey, the children in the group can be issued an adult discounted ticket in order to obtain the GroupSave discount for the whole group. Children who are included in a group to reach the minimum GroupSave group size of 3, should not be issued with a Child flat fare. Please be aware that where Child flat fares are offered and the group size is 1 adult + 2 children, the best value fare for their journey may be a full price Adult fare + two Child flat fares. Time Restrictions GroupSave discounted tickets have the same restrictions as the corresponding non-discounted ticket. If the ticket has no morning restriction, then travel is not permitted before 09:30 Mondays to Fridays (excluding Public Holidays). See GroupSave section of Knowledgebase for details. Date Restrictions Any date restrictions on the GroupSave discount are detailed in the GroupSave Calendar. See GroupSave section of Knowledgebase for details. Participating TOCs There is no change to the participating train companies: ^ Abellio Greater Anglia ^ c2c ^ Chiltern ^ First Capital Connect ^ First Great Western ^ London Midland ^ London Overground ^ Southeastern ^ Southern ^ South West Trains Issuing discounted tickets Ticket issuing information is specific to your TIS. Contact your TOC Retail Support Team as required. Refunds Usual refund arrangements apply. See the Refunds section of Knowledgebase for the relevant procedure. For local instructions contact your TOC Retail Support Team. Excess Tickets A minimum of 3 people travelling together is required for GroupSave discounted tickets to be valid for travel. Usual excess fare arrangements apply. See the Excess Fares section of Knowledgebase for the relevant procedure. For local instructions contact your TOC Retail Support Team. Further Notes East Midlands Trains and ScotRail offer GroupSave ticket types ^ GR3, GR4 and GR5 ^ for specific journeys on their routes. To issue GroupSave tickets for travel on East Midlands Trains or ScotRail services, select the relevant ticket type and not the GroupSave discount code. [Name redacted] ATOC [Job title redacted] ^ [phone redacted] Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: grahame on April 21, 2014, 19:54:14 NRE are lying - they must have details agreed by now, otherwise publicity won't be ready....less than a month away?? Always worth talking to the horse. From the horse's mouth ... I have just spoken with National Rail Enquiries, asking for the fare for Sunday 25th May from Melksham to Weymouth for the day, and been quoted 33.00. I was reminded that all four passengers must travel together, and it was confirmed that I can buy the ticket on the day at that price. If there is indeed a change, it looks like it's not the one suggested. There has been a big brief about it in the weekly retail circular, (3 ish pages long) To make it simple, its now a flat 34% discount on any groups that have 3 people or more in them. I was doing my checks / posting as you posted this. Seems there's some confusion around. Going to read now ... Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: SDS on April 21, 2014, 19:58:17 NRE are lying - they must have details agreed by now, otherwise publicity won't be ready....less than a month away?? Always worth talking to the horse. From the horse's mouth ... I have just spoken with National Rail Enquiries, asking for the fare for Sunday 25th May from Melksham to Weymouth for the day, and been quoted 33.00. I was reminded that all four passengers must travel together, and it was confirmed that I can buy the ticket on the day at that price. If there is indeed a change, it looks like it's not the one suggested. There has been a big brief about it in the weekly retail circular, (3 ish pages long) To make it simple, its now a flat 34% discount on any groups that have 3 people or more in them. I was doing my checks / posting as you posted this. Seems there's some confusion around. Going to read now ... Thats directly from ATOC, so I guess the information has not filtered through to mumbai yet. I could give you the contact who sent it, but Id rather not post it on a public forum. Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: Brucey on April 21, 2014, 19:59:08 GroupSave (GS3) The six to nine size groups seem rather pointless under the new scheme as these group sizes can be created using combinations of smaller groups at the same fare. Rather than the current system where using a group of four gives a greater discount than a group of three.^ GS3 discount status code will be retained ^ Description will change to GroupSave ^ 34% discount on adult fares ^ Group size will change to 3 to 9 adults ^ Legend printed on the ticket will change to GSV Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: grahame on April 21, 2014, 20:28:27 Thats directly from ATOC, so I guess the information has not filtered through to mumbai yet. I could give you the contact who sent it, but Id rather not post it on a public forum. I appreciate it has the ring of logic about it. I'm a bit confused on the add on fares for children and going to have a fresh look in the morning. Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: paul7575 on April 21, 2014, 20:34:49 I was hoping that the remaining TOCs might now take this new version of Groupsave, given that the discount is now basically the same as any typical adult railcard...
Paul Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: JayMac on April 21, 2014, 20:51:56 Thanks to SDS for clarifying this with that retail brief from ATOC. One pint of your beverage of choice in the bank. (Terms and Conditions apply :P)
So, as suspected, an increase in price for groups of 4 or more (unless there's exactly 6 of you). Did we really expect anything less from ATOC? No doubt, when the information is made officially public it'll be dressed up as simplification/bringing into line with Railcards, and other such guff. Reality is a price increase for many. Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: bobm on April 21, 2014, 20:55:43 I was hoping that the remaining TOCs might now take this new version of Groupsave, given that the discount is now basically the same as any typical adult railcard... Paul Perhaps other TOCs may join at a later date. For a while there are going to be "old" and "new" Groupsave type tickets in circulation - it would even more confusing if some were valid on some TOCs but not others simply because of the date they were bought on. Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: grahame on April 23, 2014, 04:15:57 What the effect of a change from "3 or 4 adults in a group travel for the price of 2, children travel for a pound each" to "adults in groups of 3 or more get a 34% discount; children pay half fares" would be.
Number of children along the top. Adults down the side. Fare of 100 pounds for adults (a high fare, I know, but makes it easier to see percentages! ... Paddington to Newquay is 103 super off peak return as a near example) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/gs14.jpg) Illustrative example shows how a child can travel on an "any age" ticket (a.k.a. adult ticket) to take advantage of Groupsave ... the arrow in my example, with 2 adults and 2 children, reduces a non-groupsave price of 300 pounds in both old and new systems to 201 pounds (until changeover) or to 248 pounds (after changeover) I have not added a third row in each section to show what the fare would be without a group discount - as an example, 3 adults at 100 pounds plus 2 children at 50 pounds would cost 400 pounds without any group save, 298 pounds under the suggested new system, and 202 pounds under the current system. So it's still a significant saving for those travelling as part of a group. Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: ChrisB on May 22, 2014, 09:33:37 fyi - Chiltern arenow offering *both* the old & new Groupsave offering...
Quote Chiltern Railways (@chilternrailway) 21/05/2014 13:38 @Aventra345001 We are continuing to offer this and also will offer the new deal. E Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: JayMac on May 22, 2014, 10:10:19 Not via their booking engine. Just tried a sample Birmingham Moor St to Banbury journey. All valid fare types only offering 34% off each for a group of 4.
So that means at stations only if this tweet is correct. And for what fares? All valid ones purchased from a Chiltern station, or just flows they price? Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: ChrisB on May 22, 2014, 10:52:44 Just flows they price, I'm pretty sure. Other TOCs wouldn't be happy - but I can check...
Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: JayMac on May 22, 2014, 11:29:30 Bicester North to High Wycombe (Off Peak Day Return priced by Chiltern) for four people is only giving a 34% discount:
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/crgs_zpscd8b554d.jpg) Individual price on that flow for an Off Peak Day Return is ^12.70. So if the old offer was still available the total price should be ^25.40, not ^33.60. This is not the only flow I've checked. There are very few Chiltern Only walk-up tickets, but even the ones I've checked of those are only offering a 34% discount to groups of four. I think Chiltern on Twitter are wrong. Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: JayMac on May 22, 2014, 12:13:00 EDIT:(I was wrong. Sort of. Apologies. Booking engine not currently offering 4 for 2. Chiltern stations apparently are.)
Chiltern are saying on Twitter that they are continuing the old offer (4 for 2). Having spoken on the phone to them they've confirmed this, currently only available from stations until the booking engine is updated. I was told it is only for flows they price, but what about tickets marked 'Any Permitted'? So it looks like complexity and potential problems have been added to the system by one rogue TOC. This is not the same as the issue with CrossCountry not accepting 'Any Permitted' GroupSave discounted tickets as they are not in the GroupSave scheme full stop. FGW are in the GroupSave scheme. So what If I purchase London Terminals to Banbury Off Peak Return (Any Permitted) GroupSave 4 for 2, which is priced by Chiltern? That should be valid from Paddington via Oxford as well as direct from Marylebone. Chiltern told me by phone that FGW won't accept the old offer. How so? Any such restriction should be printed on the ticket. Can FGW get away with saying we accept GroupSave, but not this type of GroupSave? Surely Chiltern need to introduce Chiltern Only to all the flows where they are pricing GroupSave valid fares at 4 for the price of 2. It's not just with FGW there could be problems. There are 'Any Permitted' flows priced by Chiltern where you can use London Midland for part of the journey as well. London Midland are also in the GroupSave scheme. Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: ChrisB on May 22, 2014, 14:03:21 Agree - don't think they can unanimously declare acceptance of old offer without agreeing with alternative carriers of same tickets, or otherwise introduce Chiltern-only tickets.
Got the reaction I expected, didn't think I was wrong. Thanks. wait for the expected problems now. Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: IndustryInsider on May 22, 2014, 14:12:26 So, on the one hand Chiltern are guilty of immediately making the new, simplified, GroupSave offer more complicated, but on the other hand are giving their customer who are lucky enough to travel on flows that they price a better deal?
Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: JayMac on May 22, 2014, 18:02:24 The plot thickens. It would appear that Chiltern have no option but to continue the original GroupSave offer, lest they be in breach of their franchise terms:
From the Chiltern Railways Franchise Agreement (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/43237/RED_Chiltern_Franchise_Agreement.pdf#page=394): Quote 12.3 Group and Family Travel 12.3.2 The Franchise Operator shall maintain an offer which allows three or four adults to travel on Passenger Services to and from a London Station, other than those stations operated by LUL, for a price equal to the Fare of two adults travelling on the same journey. This offer shall apply to those Fares known as Cheap Day Returns, Stayaways, Savers, and Network Awaybreaks and any equivalent or replacement Fares, but shall not be valid for travel before 10.00 and for travel from a London Station between 16.45 and 19.00 in both cases from Mondays to Fridays (inclusive). The Franchise Operator may amend time restrictions and levels of discount from time to time with prior consent of the Authority, such consent not to be unreasonably delayed or withheld. So the offer can be amended on consultation with the 'Authority' (cf the DfT), but how do they do so to comply with the first sentence which says "...for a price equal to the Fare of two adults travelling on the same journey"? Chiltern have said they are continuing the 'old' offer, so that would presume they have to in order to comply with their franchise obligations. The waters remain muddied though as to what happens with tickets for flows priced by Chiltern that are marked 'Any Permitted' and potentially allow travel on other operators who are also in the GroupSave scheme. Another bit of tinkering with the fares system that has fallen foul of the over complex and not fit for purpose privatised rail industry that we currently have. Just highlights the near impossibility of getting everyone to sing from the same song sheet. Even if everyone wants to, there will be some legal reason why one TOC can't. I suspect what'll happen in time is that Chiltern go their own way with their Group Travel offer, further eroding the inter-availability of fares on the UK rail network. "Britain's train companies working together" as ATOC would have us believe? Pah. ::) My thanks go to Ollie for pointing me in the direction of the Chiltern Franchise Agreement. Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: ChrisB on May 22, 2014, 18:47:18 The first sentence refers to the level of discount. As you state, this can be changed in agreement with the DfT. such a change would scist as a public document on the DfT website, which I can't see on first glance.
Susoect they might have missed this until it was too late to losge the request. They may alredy be preparing to ask, and hoping that they can get it done before someone points out that it ought to be available still on all sales channels...which will cost them a fortune in getting the change specially enabled just for them (while other TOCs using the same e-engine then tuen it off) Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: Brucey on May 22, 2014, 20:27:39 The first sentence refers to the level of discount. As you state, this can be changed in agreement with the DfT. such a change would scist as a public document on the DfT website, which I can't see on first glance. But would the document have to be published immediately? I distinctly remember the NRCoC being changed (and approved by DfT) without any public announcements or documents being issued beforehand.Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: ChrisB on May 23, 2014, 17:28:21 As it goes out for consultation, yes.
Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 23, 2014, 22:14:15 Just to clarify, ChrisB: are you saying that Chiltern's proposal to change the level of discount should have appeared on the Department for Transport website - but apparently it does not? :-\
Title: Re: GroupSave changes from May 2014 Post by: ChrisB on May 24, 2014, 18:00:13 They haven't changed their offer (except its not fully available across all outlet types), so no request to change needs to be made, and thus, no, I'm not
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