Great Western Coffee Shop

I have herd many claims such as

* "First buses in bristol cost more per mile than concorde"
* "First Great western has the most expensive rail tickets in europe"

allong with many other more generic "first is crap" type comments, but i am more interested in knowing if anyone else has any evidence/opinion/contribution to this topic of First running the most expensive railway in europe. Is it true??

Welcome to the board, train-spotter!

I expect you are right!
 ;)

It all depends, if you look at cheap day returns in the far south west then you will see that they are about the cheapest off peak fares in Britain! Penzance-Plymouth ^9.00 day return! Falmouth-Truro ^3.00 return? Not bad really, cheaper than driving! but then again it is a bit of a postcode lottery!

Cornish fares MAY be about the cheapest in the Country, but Cornish wages are amongest the WORST IN EUROPE.

Train Fares are set to capture the best return, being pushed up to Cut demand as Swindon travellers known.

It's also a trick to reduce passenger numbers on some services the DfT would love to shut.

This is a complicated one!  One of the big problems (as I see it) from the current fares structure is that it is overcomplicated, varies far wider than perhaps it should and has loads of historic anomolies in it.  OK; end of rant.

I believe that at one time, CHIPPENHAM to London was the most expensive main line normal return fare anywhere in Europe in pence per mile. But that was exceeeded hansomely by journeys such as Llanberis to Snowdon Summit.

You say that, but cornish actually get quite a good level of pay now, as theres little to no unemployment down there these days. So wages need to be higher to keep people in the job

You can find a problem for every solution smokey! wages in South Wales are worse than Cornwall and amongst most of the North of England, bear in mind that cheap day fares across most of the FGW network are cheaper per mile than other TOC's, along with FGW season's, the fares on the Bristol-Pad corridor are very high but you pay a premium for a high speed service (in theory!!), I think between Bristol and Pad the line speed doesn't really go below 100mph, fares are based on demand but what in life isn't? house prices are higher in areas that people want to buy houses, hotels are more expensive in high demand areas, you pay premiums for lots of things so why should the railway be any different? It's life!

Have to dissagree there, Cornwall is mostly full of spongeing dole-ites, particularly in the Redruth/Camborne/Penzance area's!

Then the statisticians who worked it out a few years ago clearly suck  :P

They probably did it in summer! unemployment goes right down for two months of the year-July and August!

wouldn't suprise me.

I can only give you anecdotal evidence as someone who uses rail where possible in UK/Germany/France......I'll split this into local and then long distance travel - the one thing I will say for both modes is that it is more reliable on the continent than it is in the UK.  For example, when I return from Munich I know the S-bahn S8 is due at 09, 29 and 49 past the hour.  I have never once known it to (a) be cancelled or (b) turn up later than 10, 30 or 50 past

Now:

Local - fare structures tend to be easier to understand - no off peak/on peak/oyster/scallop/mussel/cockel differentials.  Tickets work similar to the underground - In term so cost - it is cheaper.  e.g. central london costs ^4.00 - central munich is ^2.00.  Central Berlin - ^2.00.  Last time I travelled in Paris - ^2.50.

It is also very very easy for a foreigner who speaks none of the language (I speak SPanish but not german or french) to figure out the system. 

If I land at CDG, Munich etc at 11pm - I know the local trains are still running, clean and safe.  If I landed at Heathrow at 11 - I'd get a cab.

Distance - cheaper.  First Class Munich to Berlin on the ICE was ^100 - that is a six hour journey.  The suual of reliable also holds.  HOWEVER they ar slightly more complicated in terms of buying tickets.  In the UK you walk up and buy a ticket for any train journey from any station.  You cannot necessarily get an ICE ticket at the same place as an SNCF ticket.  I cant easily buy a ticket here for travel in Europe - otherwise next time I go to Munich I'd get the Eurostar to Paris then ICE to Munich on the overnight sleeper - cheaper than the plane and delivers me outside the office. However you have to book 7 days in advance as they can only post them to you if you are in UK - I have european friends who can buy online and pick up from ticket machines - I dont normally get 7 days notice!

FGW compared to the rest of the country.  FGW walk on fares do tend to be cheaper - both standard and first.  BUT the others do a lot more in terms of peak time discounting with book in advance.  First - FGW see as a cash cow and rarely do any form of discount - Virgin you can get a ^100.60 ticket for ^24 if you book 3 days in advance (or you could before 1/1) - which is why Virgins season tickets are roughly the same as FGW - they know if they charge too much the people who would use seasons would just book in advance for every day.   

I cannot comment on standard - but I do know also that the service first passengers with FGW get is less than the other major intercity TOC's.  e.g. if I go virgin - I get free wine and food every night (ok - if I do it five nights in a row the menu is the same five nights in a row - but I get fed and I dont have to worry about feeding myself when I get home).  Same with GNER.  Even virgin cross country gave you a decent packed lunch.

Maybe the problem with FGW is they dont differentiate enough in fares between first and standard.  After the upgrade and fare increase I worked out whether it is worth me going standard - I get on at the start of the journey (in effect) in both directions and can usually be the first on the train so getting a table shouldnt be an issue (although I would be more cramped) but the maths do not add up:

Standard class monthly season WOS - PAD = 617.90
First class monthly season WOS - PAD = 1075.70 (if you break it at oxford - there is no such benefit for standard if they brak at oxford)

Difference = 457.80

Less 40% which the amount I save in tax = 274.68

Divide by 22 days - the average working days in a month = 12.49 per day

Buy a cup of tea or two on the way down and back and you are paying pennies for virtually guaranteeing a seat and not sniffing someones armpit

Once I worked that out - it was a no brainer!

The Great Western mainline has been the most expensive railway in europe for many years. (most likely 10 or 15 years or longer) So, it ain't a Firstgroup thing, O.K!

Correct - it is a hang-over from BR but it is stupid that current fares are still tied to what BR charged 15 years ago.  Circumstances have changes since then.  Demand patterns have changed, towns have grown and servcie patterns have changed.  As an example, the ECML is more expensive than the WCML.  This made sense in 1995 when the WCML was clapped out and the ECML was recently refurbished and much faster, but the differential continues to thsi day even though the WCML is now much improved and faster with new trains and the ECML is wearing out.  The result is that passengers on the ECML pay a huge premium payment to the DfT whereas teh WCML gets a subsidy.  BR would have adjusted its fares after refurbishments but the current operators just increase their fares by an across teh board percentage.  The whole system needs to be scrapped and rebuilt. 

I agree, the best thing with the fares structure is to scrap it and start again with a blank canvas!

Advance Purchase A - C (restricted trains)
Cheap Day (after 0900) (local)
Standard Day (any train) (local)
Super Saver (after 0900) (long distance)
Saver (any time) (long distance)
Open (any train any time)

Simple...

Do away with saver and make open returns cheaper!

Or make CDRs/SDRs have a longer distance

I believe you can get an Exeter St D - London Waterloo CDR!

Although the 30 day return is very useful...

there's no real distance limit on CDR's, it all depends on demand, you can get a CDR trom Tiverton to Penzance (3 1/2 hours) but not Tiverton to Paddington (2 hours max). Also, you can get a CDR from Mallaig to Glasgow (4 hours!!) but not Bristol to Pad!!

Cornwall is recognised as one of the poorest areas in Europe. This is why it has been getting Objective One money.  This is now called the Convergence fund and I believe money from this fund will pay towards the proposed passing loop at Penryn on the Falmouth line.

I believe money from the Objective One helped with the restoring of double track between St.Austell and Truro recently.

EU money will partly fund the Falmouth package.

There was a time you could get a DR for any journey, subject to the rule that it was Time Table possible,
ie leaving after 22.00 the day before and arriving back on a train that commenced it's journey before Midnight and was a though Service back to the Departure station.

That of course was when it was a Simple fare structre, to work out long DR fares was done by adding the fares of parts of the Journey, so a Exeter-Edinburgh Day Return was the Total of Exeter-Birmingham, Birmingham- Edinburgh Day Returns.

I had a Leicester-London Day Return ticket once.

Yes you can get them today!

But this one was via Cambridge!!!

I agree with vacman: scrap it and start again - the present fare system is far too complicated!

It's also very silly - for example, it's cheaper for me to buy a return from Nailsea and Backwell to Bristol Temple Meads and a return from Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington (two transactions/tickets) than it is for me to buy a return from Nailsea and Backwell to London Paddington (one transaction/ticket)!

Same here - cheaper for me to do WOS-OXF and OXF-PAD than WOS-PAD

But only if you are first class - standard get charged more for the split than the through

Splitting tickets can often be very useful thought.

Trains before 0900 are more expensive and gettting a ticket after 0900 at another station is often a money saver.

Quite often it's only peak tickets that are cheaper to split, Penzance-Exeter before 0915 would be a business saver return at about ^36,
you can split that by buying a Penzance-Plymouth SDR and Plymouth-Exeter SDR, however, if your travelling after 0915 then the cheapest option is a CDR at ^15.

Thanks for your comments!

Just to make my puzzlement over all this a bit clearer, let me put some figures on the particular journey involved.

Occasionally I travel from Nailsea and Backwell to London Paddington, at, say, two or three weeks' notice. I check the website and find that, for example, the cheapest ticket for the journey from Nailsea at 0646 and returning from Paddington at 1700 is ^118.

However, if I buy a ticket from the website for a journey from Bristol Temple Meads to Paddington and back, it's only ^106. On the day of travel, I then buy my usual standard day return from Nailsea to Temple Meads at ^3.80. Total cost, by splitting the tickets, ^109.80 - a saving of over ^8!

Now, the bizarre thing to me is that this is for exactly the same train - an HST that goes right through, leaving from Nailsea at 0646, and Temple Meads at 0700 - both well before 0900, when cheaper off-peak tickets could come into play.

While I'm obviously quite happy to save myself ^8 in this way, my only concern is whether I should hop off the train at Temple Meads and then straight back on again, just to 'split' my journey in the same way!  Vacman, any guidance on this point?   :P

When Cornwall was awarded Objective One Funding, it was the Poorest area in Britain and I'm almost certain only about 2 areas in the whole EU were poorer.

As long as the train stops at the station you are fine. If for some reason it was cheaper to split at, Bristol TM, Bath, Chippenham, etc then it would be fine. The guard may not be overly happy with it though ;)

Also of note, you quoted a First Class fare.

Thanks, but I hasten to point out I was NOT quoting First Class Fares!  I was quoting advance tickets, booked about two-three weeks ahead!   :-[

It's only ^74 from Penzance??

Thanks, vacman.  I've completely lost the plot now. Are you saying I could buy a ticket from Penzance to Paddington return, but choose to get on the train at Nailsea (assuming it stops here, of course!)???

I don't see how it cost's over a ton to go from Nailsea to Pad??

... and nor, probably, does anyone who actually has to do it !!!  ;D

Your right, just looked on nat rail! try something like nailsea-Swindon and then swindon-Pad

Thanks very much, vacman!

Glad I wouldn't have to hop off the train at the 'split' station, though: doubt I'd be able to get back on again if I did it at Swindon!

 ;D

Old fares:

NLS - PAD

SOR   -  STD OPEN RETURN              GWR
00000 -  ANY PERMITTED   

   1 Adult    @^   137.00  =  ^   137.00
                              __________
                              ^   137.00

Standard Class Return
To   : 1072 LONDON TERMINALS


Thats MEGA!

Meanwhile from Penzance

SOR   -  STD OPEN RETURN              GWR
00000 -  ANY PERMITTED   

   1 Adult    @^   234.00  =  ^   234.00
                              __________
                              ^   234.00

Standard Class Return
To   : 1072 LONDON TERMINALS

NLS - SWI

BVR   -  BUSINESS SVRRTN              GWR
00000 -  ANY PERMITTED   

   1 Adult    @^    35.50  =  ^    35.50
                              __________
                              ^    35.50

Standard Class Return
SWI - PAD
SOR   -  STD OPEN RETURN              GWR
00000 -  ANY PERMITTED   

   1 Adult    @^    90.00  =  ^    90.00
                              __________
                              ^    90.00

Standard Class Return
To   : 1072 LONDON TERMINALS
Total : ^125.50

Sorry that I can't provide up to date fares...!

There is only one restricted train from Penzance though, the hind! a saver is valid from 0541 from Penzance!

Thats rather generous of them!!

It's only coz it takes so long from Pnz i.e. the first departure from Pnz, the only peak train, gets into Pad at 1000!

1003 after they decided it needed more slack!!

It still managed to arrive late. Also today, Plymouth had their commuter train removed. Many people would have arrived 65 minutes late, so a nice free journey.

It is quite annoying to get the 'railways are better in europe' speech!  I get this every other day from my customers at work.  I have frequently travelled on the continent using my FIP and found the railways to be worse than the UK in parts.

Take for example the RER in paris.  These have got to be THE DIRTIEST, most unhygienic and smelliest trains I have every had the misfortune to travel on.  Most of which dont run to timetable or anything else.  Whilst I will agree that 9/10 of the major routes such as TGV, Thalys or ICE run pretty well, please please please bear in mind that these are not the sort of trains that most people travel on!!!  For intercity journeys of long distance you would probably catch one of these trains - but if you were travelling within the same country or regionally you wouldnt be so lucky.

Also, moving on to the fares structure.  Due to certain legislation, many fares cannot legally be altered or removed.  Much of the reason that fares can be such a minefield is down to two major reasons:

1) due to franchising, the fares system has gradually become mutated to include many fares/types that were introduced by previous franchises.  When these franchises merge to form a new franchise both sets of fares often remain making them confusing.  I agree that some form of restructuring takes place.  Whilst on this subject - the peak fares are a joke - you can travel on a saver after around 9am (depending on route).  How many people have travelled on a train just after peak??  They are typically like sardine tins!! Therefore we should have a mid-peak ticket valid between 9 - 11 for example.  AP fares could be removed altogether, and replaced with a standard system of AP fares : Advance A, B, C, D etc.  I use these letters for good reason explained in reason number 2:

2)  Tickets that are advance purchased are quota controlled.  It is therefore often the case that people arrive 3 days before travel expecting the 3-day advance ticket they saw advertised for 8quid!! We as staff know full well it wont be available, and when explaining get all sorts of abuse and threats because it claims it is available until 3 days before!!  This is a silly system which causes more problems than what it solves!!  Particularly when quotas are subsequently increased.

I have got so involved in my rant that I cant quite remember what I am responding to so I will leave it there.  Just a few thoughts to ponder.  :D

I lived in Brest in Brittany for a year. I would far rather have lived in Penzance in terms of trains.

The line out of Brest is slow, continually closed for sheep on the line (which seem to take hours to clear) and not integrated. There are no connecting services on any of the branch lines with the TGV. Many branch services are coaches instead of trains (Brest>Quimper for example) as this appears to be quicker. Not sure who did the timetabling but I remember doing Roscoff - Brest via Morlaix once and having to wait almost 2 hours for any connection in Morlaix as the bus (despite there being a rail line and no works) was scheduled to arrive 5 minutes after a departure from Morlaix. Almost 4 hours on the train/bus/standing around losing the will to live compared to a 45 minute drive.

The TGV is horrible, plastic, uncomfortable and totally unequipped for the 6hours+ to Paris (for which it is only fast between Le Mans and Paris).

Railcards were EUR40 (young person) for roughly the same discount as an ^18 card here (5 years ago now) and was valid for ages 12-25 (so heaven knows how much a 12 year old had to pay without one of these).

No cheap tickets, singles seemed good value in comparison to UK but the shock came with returns as at only double the single - took getting used to but then singles in this country are rather expensive.

SNCF squander the massive subsidies that they get and focus solely on Paris. The service they provide is lightly used for in Brest reason - it is impossible to get to work/school/anywhere on time using rail. Long live FGW!

I wrote a relevant piece back in August 2006 (link below.)
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=446.msg1314#msg1314

Bear in mind that this was how I saw the situation back then and some things have changed. For example, there are no longer any Class 153 units available to lease.