Great Western Coffee Shop

Ok, so maybe this was partly my fault for wearing headphones but judging from the people with me I wasn't the only idiot.
Tonights 19.48 from Paddington didn't stop at maidenhead! Wtf! I am at reading awaiting a return. It said maidenhead on the board, so why am I here??

Run throughs happen more than you might expect, NickB ... there were "sorry your train did not stop" announcements at Didcot Parkway the other evening, for example. I would be interested to know why this happens.  I suspect that sometimes it's simply because the stop is an unusual one - witness the signs saying "are you stopping at Culham?" at Didcot which suggest there might have been some runthroughts there.

The 19:48 additionally called at Slough (not for passengers) for drop off a driver for another service.   By Maidenhead, it was 9 minutes late.

Additional call at Slough would be to drop a driver off for the Slough - Windsor services.  Driver would normally travel on the 1950 Banbury

I'm afraid that I beg to differ. The 19.48 from pads platform 1 did not stop from padd to reading.

The 19:48 left from Platform 9. The 19:45 Plymouth service used Platform 1.

The 19:48 normally leaves from platform 1 - that may be where the confusion arose.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P70525/2014/04/17

Just to show the details of the train. Left from Platform 9. Was at Maidehead for about 3 mins.

I did see on the system that it was stationary at Maidenhead for 3 minutes!  The 1950 Banbury was cancelled so one HST definately had to stop at Slough to drop off the Windsor driver.

Good. Hopefully this will happen everyday. Cotswold trains should not be making these stops.

No service running on the fast lines between Paddington and Reading should be stopping at the likes of Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford.  Would improve punctuality no end.

It would appear you caught the wrong train. Went to the normal platform, and didn't realise it was a different service.

Wearing headphones certainly wouldn't have helped. I've seen "headphoned" people at both Swindon and Bath realise that they're on the London to Taunton via Bristol service instead of the direct train to Taunton which leaves Paddington 3 minutes later. If they hadn't been wearing headphones they would have likely heard an onboard announcement on or after departure from Paddington and been able to change at Reading for the correct train.  

Thanks southern-stag. If that is true then that would explain it. Although 150+ confused people at reading were as confused/grumpy as me.

To those moaning about the requirement to serve the Thames valley, sorry but we pay a lot of the wages.

And the morale of the story.... just because your train has gone from platform X for the last 4 days, doesn't mean it will go from the same platform on day 5.
Then these people who don't know how to read a departure board moan and abuse the staff for something which clearly is not the staffs fault.

Did you see it advertised as that train on the departure boards before you boarded, Nick?  Or was it a case of 'That's the platform it always departs from!'  If the former I have every sympathy, especially if no on-train announcement was made, but if it was the latter then I have none.

However it would aggrieve many thousands of passengers that use these station if the fast stops were removed just for the sake of a little bit of punctuality, just build better margins in

True.  It's more than a little bit of punctuality though.  1 train running late in the peak and the delays escalate from there.  There isn't the space on the line between Reading and Paddington to build in better margins.  Stopping a service at just one station costs about 8 minutes with an HST.

Eight minutes is a slight exaggeration, probably nearer five minutes if it's a stop on a 125mph stretch of line like Maidenhead and Slough.  There's little point tinkering with anything until the IEP's arrive and the line upgrades are complete in a few years time.  IEP's will reduce station dwell times and improve acceleration which in itself will create extra capacity without all the other improvements being made.

I'm afraid that I don't quite understand that last remark. I can't see that the dwell times will be much different between IEPs and HSTs, they've both got doors at the ends of the passenger accommodation so there will still be a scrum to get out (and in!). The power doors may make a difference in preparing the train for departure - at a guess I'd say 15 to 20 secs but I could be wrong.

Slowing for a stop will be just a painfully long drawn out as it is now since the adoption of 'defensive driving' so the IEPs won't make difference there either. The only significant benefit will be in the acceleration in the upper speed ranges.

On a slightly different topic - is there a hope that approaches to Reading in the down direction at least may be a little bit more enthusiastic as the serious consequences of a SPAD over the Westbury Line Junction will have been eliminated with the new layout?

Removed errant bullet points

Dwell times are reduced because of power operated doors saving as you say 15-20 seconds.  It will be a lot more than that at the unstaffed stations, but as Maidenhead and Slough have despatch staff we'll take that as a good average.  However, that doesn't include the numerous occasions when upwards of a minute can be lost, such as a bike passenger needing to get from bike store to board at the end of Coach 'A', or a passenger pulls on the door after the CDL has been locked, but the door handle stays down and a staff member needs to push it properly shut (if not it will clock open to the secondary catch at the next station which might not be spotted).  And of course there's the old favourite of passengers leaving a door wide open right at the other end of the platform to where the staff are.  Then there's the delay any time a train is despatched with a door on the catch!  All in all, power operated doors (provided they are reliable) make a huge difference.

Acceleration wise, I'd have thought the lower speed ranges will be greatly improved when compared with a HST as well?  After all, a Class 180 will leave a HST for dust at up to around 80mph when they are fairly similar up to 125mph.

Thank you for the very complete reply - I must admit I was only thinking of staffed stations (my local one being Reading^!). You are of course quite right about the accelerations - I claim a senior moment!  :-[

The fact of the matter is that every stop at Maidenhead and Slough eats up at least one extra path on the fast lines. Even if the total delay of stopping is 3 minutes, that's a complete path lost.

Just look at the West Coast: As the xx20 and xx23 both stop on the fast lines (Milton Keynes and Watford respectively), the next fast line departure is not until xx30. Without these calls you could fit in a xx26 or xx27. At the head of the hour, neither the xx00 nor xx03 stop until branching off the core route, and as such there is a xx07 and xx10.

No HSTs should be stopping on the fast lines! It eats paths.

And if you want to travel north from those stations, what do you suggest?

Add another hour to the trip by sending them (free?) via London?
Or asking them to travel north on slow London Idland and change further out? Where do you suggest?

Un-thought out posts help nobody and are rapidly getting fellow members to ignore you!

I totally agree with the above. I have  often seen pax on P7 at reading waiting for a service to x and the said service has been diverted to another platform which normally  means a trek across the over bridge .

Because they have been oblivious to the world they have then boarded the wrong train

I've no sympathy in these cases - if you feel unable to live without you aural satisfaction for a few minutes at least pay attention to the CIS displays (which I accept can be problematic in their own ways when services are disrupted)

HSTs will have to be first stop Reading West or Swindon then. Won't be able to call at Newport or Cardiff either, they're both on 4-track sections with fast lines.

Particularly when we respond throwing a challenge down (as I did in respect of Hanborough's pax numbers doubling in 7 years when btline asserted that the service was rubbish and passengers were fed up), and we don't get a response.

Here's another one, then.

If the GW main line needs all 20 three minute paths as far as Reading for non-stop services, where do they all go?

(edited to fix quote - bobm)

I would say we are stationary at places like Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford for about 2-3 minutes with an HST.  If you leave Reading, Paddington bound, on a HST it'll take Maidenhead/Taplow area before you reach 125mph.  125mph on a Cl. 180 is achievable by Twyford when leaving Reading. Given the acceleration and braking curves I would still you're looking at close to 8 minutes for a stop in order to not affect the train behind. 
Power operated doors will obviously decrease the dwell times at stations, even more so if the train was more suitable to commuter work with double leaf doors etc.

The fact remains the line between Reading and Paddington in the peak is VERY tightly timed in order to run it at close to its capacity during the peak.  If the train that calls Twyford, Maidenhead or Slough is just 1 or 2 minutes late that gap on the line is effectively lost and then you start creating knock on delays to following services.  The situation is not helped when you throw 90mph Turbos onto the main and having them cross from relief to main and vice versa at certain locations.  In an ideal world, the Turbos should be confined to the reliefs, the HSTs should keep to the mains and run non-stop. 

Indeed, you need to consider lost time from the start of (defensive) braking, through the station stop, until the HST/Adelante is back up to 125mph running. And then compare that time to full 125mph running through the station non-stop. This difference could easily be 8minutes-ish

4 to/via Bristol
4 via the Berks and Hants
2 to Gloucester
2 to Worcester via Oxford
2 to South Wales
2 only to Reading (or perhaps to Oxford)

Oh hang on - that's only 16 ... and I'm providing some generous services in places

It will be very interesting to see the post-electification pattern.   I'm sure that note will be taken of the comments about the West Coast with a series of trains in a "flight" each stopping successively closer to London, and with the slower acceleration diesels that remain running non-stop.   So a sequence of ten slots
1. Stops at Twyford
2. Stops at Maidenhead
3. Stops at Slough
4. Stops at Hayes and Harlington
5. Stops at Ealing Broadway
6. [lost to stops]
7. [lost to stops]
8. Nonstop
9. Nonstop
10. Nonstop

Grahame - I think you've got to 20 if you include the Hex, which occupies 4 paths as far as Airport Jn. But as you say, that's being extremely generous - I can't see 4 needed on the B&H, nor 2 each to Gloucester or Worcester.

Flighting is much easier on the down line. All(!) you need to do is ensure that services get away from Paddington (or Euston, or KX) promptly. It gets much more tricky on the up line, as the likelihood of each service presenting itself at the appropriate point on time is inevitably reduced. 

I assume you could reduce the impact of a Slough, Maidenhead or Twyford stop by running the train in front of a Heathrow Express service.  That then puts a bigger gap between the stopper and the following HST.  That would mitigate some of the capacity lost west of Slough by a train stopping on the main.

I think it is pretty much how the timetable runs.  Departures from Paddington between 17:00 and 19:00 on the fast lines only.  Some of this is from memory as well as actually working some of the services.  There may be the odd LTV service I've missed off which may run on the fast lines for part of the journey, feel free to add and amend where necessary!!

17:00 Bristol TM
17:03 Penzance
17:06 Bristol TM (stops Twyford)
17:10 HEx
17:15 Carmarthen
17:18 Oxford (stops Maidenhead)
17:22 Hereford
17:25 HEx
17:30 Taunton
17:33 Paignton
17:35 Oxford (stops Maidenhead & Twyford)
17:40 HEx
17:45 Swansea
17:49 Worcester (stops Maidenhead)
17:55 HEx
18:00 Bristol TM
18:03 Penzance
18:05 Frome (stops Twyford)
18:10 HEx
18:15 Swansea
18:18 Oxford (Fast Line as far as Maidenhead, also stops Twyford)
18:22 Hereford
18:25 HEx
18:30 Weston-Super-Mare
18:35 Exeter
18:40 HEx
18:45 Swansea
18:47 Cheltenham (stops Twyford)
18:50 Oxford (stops Slough)
18:55 HEx

Here's a controversial suggestion... The trains serve where the people travelling live, and then what you find is that more people live where there is a decent service.
Ie. without wanting to rain on a purist's day but if an hst didn't have to stop between paddington and wales then it could travel REALLY BLOODY FAST but, ummm, it wouldn't have any passengers. Equally, if maidenhead didn't have HST's 5 years ago then I wouldn't have moved here.

And returning to my problem on Thursday, yes, it seems to have been my fault for not paying attention. I thought i saw plat1 which it has always been, when it had switched to plat11. 19.45 vs 19.48. Fair enough. For the record I didn't "abuse" any staff as was suggested, just travelled back. But what I appreciate from this site is being able to find out why my evening got delayed by 30mins. Thanks.

They're sorting that with HS2! Besides, I wasn't suggesting removing these stops, merely showing the effect on the line.

On FGW, taking Crossrail to Reading from Slough and Maidenhead isn't difficult?

Not thought out? Very thought out thank you!

Eh? Why not? The capacity issues are between Paddington and Reading. Not sure what you mean.

16 trains per hour is the maximum. A train every 3 minute with 4 spare paths for performance (source: network rail's RP2 documents)

So Grahame's response is a sensible set of destinations.

Sorry for not relying on the other thread, I've been quite busy and I must have forgotten.

But the capacity isn't there due to the way the railway is set up. The network is crying out for the maximum fast line service to Reading and each Maidenhead stop removes at least one path.

East Coast could make a killing stopping all over Herts and Cambs, but there is no capacity until after HS2.

Plenty of trains run fast and are busy (as journey times are low). Eg WCML and ECML

Then FGW and predecessors should never have run fast to maidenhead, then us meddlesome commuters would never have moved here. Oh, and crossrail wouldn't have been built.
It's pretty simple - lines equal passengers, and passengers equal lines.

Basically, if infrastructure spending during the 90s kept pace with the growth in commuter traffic places like Maidenhead would be far better off, we would have a far more flexible railway line.  It didn't, and now we are living and managing with the severe constraints it brings.  Oh and I think the decision to build CrossRail wasn't purely based on Maidenhead and let's be honest, if there wasn't any political pressure would there have been fast services to Maidenhead??

But the growth that has come with services in the 21st century simply wasn't anticipated in the 90s or even at the start of this century.  Growth forecasts of 0.8% were used (at least for the area I live in) in 2004 for the 2006-starting franchise but it turned out to be that traffic grew at 8.0%.  What looks just like a transposition of digits when written that way, but they're annual and compounded figures.     0.8% growth 9 times (i.e. over a ten year period) was predicted to take each 100 passengers up to 107, but the 8.0% growth over the same period achieved has taken 100 passengers up to 200.

Crossrail was built for Canary Wharf not Maidenhead!

Besides why would Maidenhead be the reason? According to people on here, everyone is going to shun it and get an HST to Paddington (despite overall journey times and comfort being better on Crossrail).

Do not fear, you will have a decent service on Crossrail. There will be no need to stop HSTs. 4 trains per hour, guaranteed seat, air con all the way to the west end or City. Why would you cram onto a packed HST and then again onto a sweltering tube train? Most commuters in the South East are crying out for that!

What infrastructure spending in the 90s? The creaking infrastructure that in part saw Railtrack go bust? Or the shoe string schemes that saw BR having to cut something somewhere to spend money elsewhere? Have you forgotten that during the first half of the 90s that rail travel was still in decline?

Probably, Maidenhead saw over 4 million journeys last year. Taken with the rising usage of stations between there and Paddington it is inevitable some fast trains will stop there as the stopping services are overwhelmed.

Don't forget that Crossrail was originally planned to go to Aylesbury,  and when focus turned to the GWML, Slough was analysed as western terminus, but there was a good business case to make Maidenhead.

Don't remember reading much of that...

The 1980's Crossrail surveys I was involved at Paddington and many WR locations as far west as Oxford and Newbury, the scheme then was Oxford / Newbury Thames Valley electrification to London. Going to Aylesbury was all part of the idea to sell off Marylebone station with the High Wycombe services terminating in Paddington, electrification to High Wycombe and inclusion in Crossrail was seen as a later phase.

Heathrow was not even planned for.

The Eastern terminus was Southend and not Shenfield

I was travelling back from London today and firstly was most surprised that the 19.48 was running but decided to go for it since it was running on a bank holiday and since it's so fast to Maidenhead .. As I came out of the underground entrance shortly after 19.30 it was already on the board and I could have sworn it said platform 1 but I honestly can't say one way or the other if that is true.

Having then done a bit of shopping and got a coffee I took another look (having read this post I knew it was a good idea) and indeed it was then platform 9..

So either a 9 looks like a 1 from a distance to me (I do need to get my eyes tested however), or I just assumed it would say 1 and read it as such, or the platform changed...

Think it was a platform change based on realtimetrains having it as a red 9 and tomorrows being platform 1. Good thing you did check!

Yes, I did consider the braking curve and acceleration curve and based it on a two minute station stop - which I would say is about average for a HST at Maidenhead/Slough in the peaks if there is no 'silly' additional time.  So that gives three minutes in my calculation lost by acceleration/braking.  I think that's probably about right, certainly if it is more it would only be a little more - once a HST gets towards three figures in speed it is only a matter of seconds lost if it's heading for 125mph than a train already at that speed.  Certainly, I think eight minutes, under normal running conditions, is very excessive, unless you're taking into account the time that a following non-stop train would need to be behind not to have to slow down.

In the shuffling madess
of the locomotive breath,
runs the all-time loser,
headlong to his death.
He feels the piston scraping
steam breaking on his brow
old Charlie stole the handle and
the train it won't stop going
no way to slow down.

He sees his children jumping off
at the stations - one by one.
His woman and his best friend
in bed and having fun.
He's crawling down the corridor
on his hands and knees
old Charlie stole the handle and
the train it won't stop going
no way to slow down.

He hears the silence howling
catches angels as they fall.
And the all-time winner
has got him by the balls.
He picks up Gideons Bible
open at page one
old Charlie stole the handle and
the train it won't stop going
no way to slow down.

You can see a video of the man whose mother Muriel Anderson got me my initial civil service job here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWubhw8SoBE&feature=kp). I am unsure as to whether or not I am grateful, but Charlie has much to answer for.

Ian Anderson, by way of "Life's a Long Song", inspired me to learn to play the flute