|
Title: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 13, 2014, 20:43:11 From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-27011497):
Quote Hedge fund manager 'in ^42,550 train fare dodge' (http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/74213000/jpg/_74213812_014201987.jpg) The senior executive is thought to have avoided paying full fares for five years A city executive is believed to have dodged paying ^42,550 in train fares by exploiting a loophole which meant he only paid a third of the journey cost. The hedge fund manager from Stonegate, in East Sussex, who has not been named, had an Oyster Travelcard and regularly travelled to and from London. Southeastern said he commuted from Stonegate to London Bridge, where he caught another train to Cannon Street. His Oyster was only used at Cannon Street so he paid a maximum ^7.20 fare. The rural station at Stonegate has no ticket barriers, so the man was able to avoid "tapping in" with his Oyster card, and only "tapped out" through the barriers once he reached Cannon Street. He also managed to avoid ticket inspectors on the train, Southeastern said. The then maximum fare of ^7.20 was incurred when a passenger "tapped out" through a barrier without having "tapped in", a Southeastern spokesman said. The executive was eventually caught in November last year by a ticket inspector standing next to the barriers. He paid back the ^42,550 in dodged fares, plus ^450 in legal costs, within three days as part of an out-of-court settlement. Southeastern said it believed he had been dodging the fare for five years as his last annual season ticket from Stonegate expired in 2008 and within five days of being challenged he renewed his lapsed ticket. The spokesman for the company said: "We recognise that this issue is important to customers who pay their way and expect the system to treat them with fairness by acting against people who don't buy tickets." Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Cynthia on April 13, 2014, 20:58:43 While this type of story makes me seeth, I suppose to the perpetrator's credit he did at least pay back what he owed, but it does make one wonder how widespread is this sneaky practice? And to what cost to the TOCs and the other passengers, whose increased fares probably have a percentage factored in to cover this sort of dishonesty. Maybe the problem is a shortage of staff; I suppose the TOCs would say it's 'uneconomical' to man barriers.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 13, 2014, 21:10:02 Hmm. :-\
Quote The executive was eventually caught in November last year by a ticket inspector standing next to the barriers. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Electric train on April 13, 2014, 21:12:20 Out of Court settlement >:( should have been a criminal prosecution for theft
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: grahame on April 13, 2014, 21:17:39 ... how widespread is this sneaky practice? And to what cost to the TOCs and the other passengers, ... I'm not sure about this practice, but with a fare system and structure as complex as we have in the Uk, there is a very great deal of fare evasion. Not only does it cost others who have to pay more, but it can also reduce passenger counts to the extent it distorts statistics upon which future service levels are decided ... At both of the last two TransWilts Link meetings, one of the three top priorities to ask the train operator and council for is more thorough enforcement of fare collection. And I'm delighted that FGW under the new franchise have been recruiting additional revenue protection staff. You can't totally blame the loss of fares on passengers who set out to cheat, though; for one thing, there are creating journeys and circumstances where there's no opportunity to pay, and for a second the system of fares can be so complex that not even the staff understand what's valid ... Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 13, 2014, 21:19:34 Hmm, again. :-\
Quote The executive ... paid back the ^42,550 in dodged fares, plus ^450 in legal costs, within three days as part of an out-of-court settlement. Better that, perhaps, than the inordinate costs of a criminal court case - which could have resulted in possibly a lesser penalty? ::) Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: John R on April 13, 2014, 21:20:02 I suspect the TOC is somewhat embarrassed that he travelled for 5 years without an onboard ticket check finding him out. And if not, they should be.
I work in the financial services industry, and many years ago a member of staff was dismissed because he was convicted of fare dodging. The company's position was that its fiduciary insurance required it not to employ anyone convicted of any type of financial fraud. So I suspect the individual was highly likely to lose his job if it became public. Still leaves a very bad taste in the mouth though. The fact that he agreed to pay ^40k back is clearly an admission of guilt, and he should have been prosecuted. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Southern Stag on April 13, 2014, 21:42:28 Out of court settlements are very common for ticketing offences, just not usually involving this kind of money. It's in the TOC's interest to settle as they won't incur the costs in bringing the case to court and they'll also receive some compensation. If the prosecution is successful the punishment is normally by way of a fine, and the TOC won't receive that. They normally receive of compensation for the fare due, but to receive the full ^43,000 they would have to prove that he'd been evading the fare for the whole period, which would probably be difficult.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Brucey on April 13, 2014, 21:59:17 it does make one wonder how widespread is this sneaky practice? Very widespread. Had he loaded a Zone 1 Travelcard to the Oyster card (or even just purchased a paper Travelcard), it is unlikely he would ever have been caught as these tickets do not require a touch in.This is a common fraud committed by passengers of London Underground who travel across Central London without paying the Zone 1 premium, taking advantage of the lack of ticket checks on the train. I saw a few people being pulled up during a revenue sting inside Oxford Circus station last year, where tickets and Oysters were being checked as passengers walked through the interchange tunnels. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Btline on April 13, 2014, 22:04:56 10/10 for effort. It's about time greedy train companies got a taste of their own medicine.
The only crime here is the extortionate fare for a commute. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 13, 2014, 22:35:58 Hmm. Careful, Btline: you're on the verge of condoning fare evasion there.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 13, 2014, 23:53:27 Further coverage of this story, from the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/10764348/City-boss-dodged-42000-in-train-fares-on-commute.html):
Quote City boss dodged ^42,000 in train fares on commute Unnamed fund manager paid nothing for his 82-minute commute since 2008 Train bosses have come under fire for not prosecuting a wealthy hedge fund manager who was described as the ^biggest fare dodger in railway history^, evading more than ^42,000 in train tickets. The City executive is believed to have dodged the fare for the 82-minute commute between the Sussex village of Stonegate and central London for five years. He exploited a flaw that allowed him to go through barriers at Cannon Street station in London by ^tapping out^ with an Oyster travelcard. After finally being caught by a ticket inspector, the executive was able to pay ^42,550 in dodged fares and ^450 in legal costs within three days of being asked to pay up as part of an out-of-court settlement. Train company Southeastern has refused to name the fund manager. Manuel Cortes, leader of the TSSA rail union, said: ^It is not only extraordinary that the biggest fare dodger in railway history got away with it for so long, but has also now escaped criminal prosecution as well.^ A single fare from Stonegate to London costs ^21.50 and an annual season ticket ^4,548. The executive is believed to have bought neither between 2008 and the end of last year. Although he never admitted to this, he offered to settle the matter out of court. It is thought he disembarked at London Bridge and caught a service to Cannon Street. At Cannon Street, he used an Oyster card to pass through, paying the maximum ^7.20. A Southeastern spokesman said: ^All customers have the option to settle out of court and in this case he chose to pay the settlement fee that we put to him.^ Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 14, 2014, 00:48:56 ... and, from the Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2603676/High-flying-fund-manager-spends-five-years-dodging-rail-fares-coughs-43-000-caught.html):
Quote High-flying fund manager spends five years dodging rail fares... then coughs up ^43,000 after being caught Each day, commuter avoided ^49 fare from Stonegate, East Sussex Travelled to London, would 'tap out' Oyster once and only be charged ^7.20 He would get off at London Bridge and catch service Cannon Street However his scam was exposed and he paid the bill in a settlement An annual ticket would have cost ^4,548, or ^22,740 over five years He was instead charged the full daily fare totalling ^42,550 - plus legal costs A high-flying executive avoided paying almost ^43,000 in train tickets for his daily commute into London - and paid back the dodged fares in just three days after being caught. Over five years, the hedge fund manager dodged the ^24.50-each-way fare while travelling from his home in the sought-after village of Stonegate, East Sussex to his place of work in the city. The unnamed man, who is believed to be the biggest fare dodger in history, exploited a loophole that allowed him to pay only a third of the actual cost of his 1hour 22minute journey. He caught the commuter train from Stonegate - a rural station with no barriers or ticket machine and only a part-time ticket office - without purchasing a fare. Once in London, the executive was then able to pass through the barriers at Cannon Street by simply 'tapping out' with an Oyster Travelcard paying just ^7.20. But his scam was finally exposed by a ticket inspector and, in an out-of-court settlement, he paid Southeastern trains back the ^42,550 in dodged fares and ^450 legal cost within three days. The cost of a standard-class single fare from Stonegate - where the average home cost half a million pounds - to London is ^24.50 while an annual season ticket costs ^4,548 . According to a report in the Sunday Times, the senior executive is believed to have travelled into London without buying any ticket and avoiding detection from 2008 until the end of last year. He was able to get off his train at London Bridge and cross a platform to catch a service to Cannon Street - again avoiding having to go through any barriers. At Cannon Street, he used an Oyster card to exit the barriers, paying the then maximum ^7.20 fare incurred when a passenger taps out without having tapped in. But on November 25 last year a ticket inspector standing next to the barriers spotted he had paid ^7.20 and not the ^2.30 for a single ticket. After being challenged, the passenger later admitted to dodging the correct fare on five journeys between London Bridge and Cannon Street. However, suspicious investigators for Southeastern discovered that the man had for a number of years up until 2008 been purchasing an annual ticket from Stonegate. And within five days of being caught out at Cannon Street, the executive renewed his season ticket, leading Southeastern to believe he had been dodging the fare for his commute for five years. Despite never admitting to this, the executive offered to settle the matter out of court and paid up within three days of being notified by the train operator the total owed in dodged tickets. Southeastern, who has not named the man, said all passengers have the option to avoid prosecution and settle out of court. The train company told the Sunday Times that the executive wanted to protect his identity because he was concerned about the impact it would have on his job. A spokesperson added: 'All customers have the option to settle out of court and in this case he chose to pay the settlement fee that we put to him. 'The customer wanted to protect his identity and did not admit to evading fares for five years at any point during the process.' However, crtiics have questioned why the fare dodging executive was allowed to escape being prosecuted and remain anonymous. Manuel Cortes, leader of the TSSA rail union, said in the report: 'It is not only extraordinary that the biggest fare dodger in railway history got away with it for so long, but has also now escaped criminal prosecution as well.' Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: LiskeardRich on April 14, 2014, 08:45:12 So was it ^21.50 or ^24.50 single?
Either way for a 50 mile trip each way, we are looking at around 50p a mile, which is extortionate in my view. The government want people out of cars onto public transport, yet the cost is uncompetitive,how can public transport be more expensive than a single person driving. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Brucey on April 14, 2014, 08:50:49 Either way for a 50 mile trip each way, we are looking at around 50p a mile, which is extortionate in my view. Sadly this is fairly standard during the peak in the South East. E.g. Havant to London is 47p per mile for an anytime single.The government want people out of cars onto public transport, yet the cost is uncompetitive,how can public transport be more expensive than a single person driving. You are absolutely right about the cost of driving. It doesn't seem right that a more fuel efficient form of transport is actually costing the end user more to run. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ellendune on April 14, 2014, 08:57:37 Either way for a 50 mile trip each way, we are looking at around 50p a mile, which is extortionate in my view. Sadly this is fairly standard during the peak in the South East. E.g. Havant to London is 47p per mile for an anytime single.The government want people out of cars onto public transport, yet the cost is uncompetitive,how can public transport be more expensive than a single person driving. You are absolutely right about the cost of driving. It doesn't seem right that a more fuel efficient form of transport is actually costing the end user more to run. The poverty stricken south east are obviously thought to be in need of subsidised fares paid for by the hugely wealthy south west. If you want a fare that is extortionate then an anytime single from Swindon is ^60.50 that's 78.5 pence per mile! Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on April 14, 2014, 09:14:06 Yep - Fares into London from north of the Thames (incl GWML) are more pence per mile than those on the south side - go figure!
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Rhydgaled on April 14, 2014, 11:52:02 Either way for a 50 mile trip each way, we are looking at around 50p a mile, which is extortionate in my view. Sadly this is fairly standard during the peak in the South East. E.g. Havant to London is 47p per mile for an anytime single.The government want people out of cars onto public transport, yet the cost is uncompetitive,how can public transport be more expensive than a single person driving. You are absolutely right about the cost of driving. It doesn't seem right that a more fuel efficient form of transport is actually costing the end user more to run. Going back to the railways, it isn't just about price though. Rail fares into London may be extortionate, but in London rail is still competitive against the car for reasons other than price. In many other areas though more needs to be done to ensure that the car becomes uncompetitive compared to the rail offering (whether on price or other factors). Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: LiskeardRich on April 14, 2014, 20:40:23 Southeastern state that all fare evaders have an opportunity to settle out of court. Therefore regardless of the amount involved treating equally comes to the front. I'm assuming there would be no way they'd get such a figure taking it to court, as they couldn't proof beyond reasonable doubt that he had been evading for 5 years, but an assumption based on the end of his previous ticket.
They probably should be thanking him for highlighting a flaw in their revenue protection, and I'd have a guess many more will get found doing the same thing. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ellendune on April 14, 2014, 20:51:29 Southeastern state that all fare evaders have an opportunity to settle out of court. Therefore regardless of the amount involved treating equally comes to the front. I'm assuming there would be no way they'd get such a figure taking it to court, as they couldn't proof beyond reasonable doubt that he had been evading for 5 years, but an assumption based on the end of his previous ticket. They probably should be thanking him for highlighting a flaw in their revenue protection, and I'd have a guess many more will get found doing the same thing. Yes but the flaw is that only a very rich person has the odd £42k to hand to settle the matter. Therefore rich people get off and poor people end up in court! Surely the answer is that the court should be empowered to require the TOC to receive compensation. That appears to be the reason SE chose to settle out of court - that way they got the cash not HM Treasury! Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Cynthia on April 14, 2014, 21:42:39 You are absolutely right about the cost of driving. It doesn't seem right that a more fuel efficient form of transport is actually costing the end user more to run. [/quote] Further announcements from the IPCC yesterday, featured on the news should provide further proof (if any were still needed) that the politicians really need to increase the amount of action taken to reduce carbon emissions if we are to avoid further climatic disasters. Yet, as this quote above shows, most parties still obviously consider it political suicide to even try to get us out of our cars and onto public transport. Why does the treasury not subsidise public transport, to the extent other nations do??? It would be a start. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: JayMac on April 14, 2014, 21:59:21 I've got a hedge fund.
I'm saving up for a man to come and prune and pollard the one at the foot of the front garden. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: LiskeardRich on April 14, 2014, 22:00:46 Southeastern state that all fare evaders have an opportunity to settle out of court. Therefore regardless of the amount involved treating equally comes to the front. I'm assuming there would be no way they'd get such a figure taking it to court, as they couldn't proof beyond reasonable doubt that he had been evading for 5 years, but an assumption based on the end of his previous ticket. They probably should be thanking him for highlighting a flaw in their revenue protection, and I'd have a guess many more will get found doing the same thing. Yes but the flaw is that only a very rich person has the odd ^42k to hand to settle the matter. Therefore rich people get off and poor people end up in court! Surely the answer is that the court should be empowered to require the TOC to receive compensation. That appears to be the reason SE chose to settle out of court - that way they got the cash not HM Treasury! But in court he would have been fined nowhere near ^40k, as the court can only impose a percentage of weekly income. The TOC only had hard evidence of one occasion and maximum fine impossible by the court of ^1000, so Southeastern knew it was in their best interest to accept the settlement. The maximum fine imposable by a magistrate court is either ^5000 or 500% of weekly income whichever is lower. I see it unlikely to have ever made crown court. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Southern Stag on April 15, 2014, 01:16:31 It potentially could have reached the Crown Court, if Southeastern had sufficient evidence to prosecute him for fraud for the whole 5 year period. In reality Southeastern probably only had enough evidence to prosecute him for one of the two specific railway offences, and it's unlikely it have been for the whole 5 year period.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: SDS on April 16, 2014, 00:34:21 Firstly any type of deliberate fare evasion is unacceptable.
The mags court would only have been able to fine the guy up to a level 3 fine for each 'proven' offence. Now the way I read it, the only offence which could be proven under RRA1889 would be the day he got stopped. The rest would be circumstantial and not beyond reasonable doubt. Now SarfEastern prob could have dug out CCTV and trawled through the 14 days buffer and then claimed the guy did the same thing, but again this would have been circumstantial. Digging through the OysterCard records maybe would have dug up an interesting history of ^7.20 exit charges, but again the guy could have claimed on each occasion, oh sorry forgot to touch in at XYZ. Cant prove otherwise. The real reason the guy paid up I reckon, is because they didn't want the suspicion hanging over them. In the big city world even unproven allegations can break a career. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 16, 2014, 00:48:32 The real reason the guy paid up I reckon, is because they didn't want the suspicion hanging over them. In the big city world even unproven allegations can break a career. ... so why did (s)he even try it on in the first place? ??? Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: John R on April 16, 2014, 08:11:28 I'm sure a case could have been constructed if they had wanted to.
Did he work at X for that time? Fairly easy to substantiate. Did he live at Y for that time? Again, relatively easy. (If he didn't where did he stay, and how could he prove it.) He clearly didn't drive all the way, as the Oyster touch outs prove that. What evidence could be produce to prove how he did travel from home to work (and thus disprove the accused's view). If need be, mobile phone evidence could be used to prove that his journey took him along train lines, not roads. Did he send emails, make calls in the hour before arriving at work. Yes, it may have cost more to prove, but the message would have been much better, and may in the long run have raised more revenue by discouraging fare dodgers. Instead the message is that if you get caught you can pay it back and get away with it. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: LiskeardRich on April 16, 2014, 09:17:34 Firstly any type of deliberate fare evasion is unacceptable. The mags court would only have been able to fine the guy up to a level 3 fine for each 'proven' offence. Now the way I read it, the only offence which could be proven under RRA1889 would be the day he got stopped. The rest would be circumstantial and not beyond reasonable doubt. Now SarfEastern prob could have dug out CCTV and trawled through the 14 days buffer and then claimed the guy did the same thing, but again this would have been circumstantial. Digging through the OysterCard records maybe would have dug up an interesting history of ^7.20 exit charges, but again the guy could have claimed on each occasion, oh sorry forgot to touch in at XYZ. Cant prove otherwise. The real reason the guy paid up I reckon, is because they didn't want the suspicion hanging over them. In the big city world even unproven allegations can break a career. Am I right in believing a level 3 fine is 300% of weekly income? Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on April 16, 2014, 09:27:23 Innocent until *proven* guilty - each day that will apply.
The accused can remain silent & doesn't need to *prove* anything - just *disprove* only where *proof* has been supplied "beyond reasonable doubt". And the magistrate would impose one fine, regardless of the number of days *proven*. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Southern Stag on April 16, 2014, 16:20:47 Although nowadays if the accused chooses to remain silent the court is entitled to draw an adverse inference from that silence. It wouldn't be enough evidence to convict by itself but it adds to the weight of the evidence as a whole.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ellendune on April 16, 2014, 20:27:27 Am I right in believing a level 3 fine is 300% of weekly income? No it is ^1,000 on summary conviction (i.e. in a Magistrate's court) Criminal Justice Act 1991 Section 17 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/53/section/17) Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Cynthia on April 16, 2014, 20:45:38 I've got a hedge fund. I'm saving up for a man to come and prune and pollard the one at the foot of the front garden. Um, I wouldn't want to be privet to a story like that, BNM......! Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 17, 2014, 00:13:38 He may merely be resting on his laurels, before branching out into hedgerow management ... ::)
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: thetrout on April 19, 2014, 19:21:54 I've got mixed views on this one... Odd when I don't condone fare dodging.
On the one hand I look at it. What he was doing was bloody clever and he probably got a sense of achievement from getting one up on Southeastern for 5 years. He paid over ^40k within 3 days of being asked. Clearly has more money than sense and should've known better to begin with. Sadly, to manipulate the OysterCard system in London to pay a cheaper fare than what should be due really isn't hard if you a logical mindset. But knowing how to do something and actually doing it are 2 different things altogether. (I must stress I know I could pay a cheaper fare on an Oyster if I wanted but I don't) I don't think he will remain anonymous for much longer though. All we have to do is look at those in the spotlight who have had injunctions granted to protect their names being revealed. Then the CPS decided that to prosecute every single person on Twitter who referenced the name of a certain sports person who committed an affair would not be in the public interests (More like we don't have the man power to do it) I think the reason SE wanted to settle out of court was they were embarrassed it took them 5 years to pick up on it. And maybe if the persons train had been late or whatnot he could have continued to do so for another 5 years. My penultimate feeling on this is if he is worried for his job then why the hell was he doing this in the first place? Ultimately if I was someone senior on SE I'd be asking this chap to tell me what other flaws were in my revenue system that could be closed down on the basis of a lesser settlement (Plea bargain I guess). Sometimes people are too clever for their own good with certain things. But use the skills in the right way and you could make the system better overall :) But as I said... I wonder how long he will remain anonymous for... And that will be something even with the odd ^40k lying around and an expensive Lawyer won't stop damage... Yes someone might get sued for Defamation... But the name will still be out there... Time to be quiet now me thinks :) Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Cynthia on April 19, 2014, 21:14:55 So, thetrout, how many people are shaking in their shoes right now do you think, awaiting an embarrassing disclosure?
(I had to correct myself on that last word - I wrote 'enclosure' at first, still thinking about all those hedges, no doubt.... Perhaps the Fund Manager should have Boxed clever and looked to his Elders) Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on April 20, 2014, 12:33:16 On the one hand I look at it. What he was doing was bloody clever and he probably got a sense of achievement from getting one up on Southeastern for 5 years. It shows up SouthEastern for their lax ticket checks....and him for not getting the London end right (all he had to do was keep a Zone 1 season (to get him in/out at Cannon Street without flagging up a max fare deduction) on his Oyster & chances are he'd still be doing it.... Quote I don't think he will remain anonymous for much longer though. All we have to do is look at those in the spotlight who have had injunctions granted to protect their names being revealed. There's no injunction on his name....SouthEastern agreed to accept the money & not to name him. Anyone within that company that does will lose their job - enough of a threat to keep them quiet. Ditto anyone with the BTP that might have been involved. S/He will definitely want to remain anonymous as keeping your clients as a Hedge Fund Manager might be difficult if your clients know your open to a bit of Fraud.....and they'd lose their job through losing clients & end up being made redundant quite quickly if it got out.... Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Brucey on April 20, 2014, 12:51:21 I should also add (completely forgot about this previously) is that Oyster records are only kept for 8 weeks under normal circumstances, therefore it would have been very difficult to prosecute (and therefore recover fares) for more than 8 weeks. Accepting an out of court settlement was clearly in the best interests of the TOC.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Worcester_Passenger on April 20, 2014, 14:56:55 While I can appreciate all the reasons this was settled out of court, I'm left with the unpleasant fact that this person has not been punished for their actions - they have merely paid up what they should have paid in the first place.
The lack of punishment brings the law into disrepute (and angers the other commuters and the Daily Mail). Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on April 20, 2014, 15:04:14 I'd like to understand more about the 'right' SouthEastern stated that everyone had to settle out of court - is that just simply because custom & practice exists or that a legal right exists?
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: SDS on April 20, 2014, 15:47:04 Every TOC has the right to push through to prosecution regardless of your offers/attempt to settle out of court.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Southern Stag on April 20, 2014, 18:45:43 It shows up SouthEastern for their lax ticket checks....and him for not getting the London end right (all he had to do was keep a Zone 1 season (to get him in/out at Cannon Street without flagging up a max fare deduction) on his Oyster & chances are he'd still be doing it.... That would probably have been noticed too. If you only ever touch in/out at Cannon Street it suggests some kind of suspicious behaviour. Even with a Travelcard on Oyster you are still meant to to touch in and out on every journey.Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: LiskeardRich on April 21, 2014, 07:19:41 It shows up SouthEastern for their lax ticket checks....and him for not getting the London end right (all he had to do was keep a Zone 1 season (to get him in/out at Cannon Street without flagging up a max fare deduction) on his Oyster & chances are he'd still be doing it.... That would probably have been noticed too. If you only ever touch in/out at Cannon Street it suggests some kind of suspicious behaviour. Even with a Travelcard on Oyster you are still meant to to touch in and out on every journey.Although impractical (impossible??) on a boundary zone season ticket to touch in/out at boundary. What you're meant to do and can do are two different things here. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on April 21, 2014, 11:01:13 And I don't believe you pick up a max fare 'fine' either?
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: thetrout on April 21, 2014, 18:15:30 It shows up SouthEastern for their lax ticket checks....and him for not getting the London end right (all he had to do was keep a Zone 1 season (to get him in/out at Cannon Street without flagging up a max fare deduction) on his Oyster & chances are he'd still be doing it... I deliberately wanted to avoid mentioning where he went wrong. As we cannot condone fare evasion on a public forum... That was just one of the things he did wrong! Quote There's no injunction on his name....SouthEastern agreed to accept the money & not to name him. Anyone within that company that does will lose their job - enough of a threat to keep them quiet. Ditto anyone with the BTP that might have been involved. Without sound provocative or rude. That is a rather ignorant and very naive way to look at it. There are so many different variables where his name could come out it's impossible to name them all. But if Edward Snowdon or Bradley Manning* didn't mind losing their jobs... And someone in Southeastern decided he should be named because (as seems to be general views on this forum) he should have been prosecuted. Then I can't see a threat of losing your job as a 'credible' one. (If that's the right word) I could go on and list some of the more obvious ways this could come out. But I don't want to start a tit for tat spat on the forum. But if someone really wanted to look hard enough (i.e. a competitor/nemesis Hedge Fund Manager) then to work it out probably wouldn't be to difficult...! * - I appreciate there is alot of controversy over these two... But Edward Snowdon in particular I find is relevant to my line of thought. I used this example as an over-exaggeration to demonstrate it has happened before in a more serious manner. So, thetrout, how many people are shaking in their shoes right now do you think, awaiting an embarrassing disclosure? I'm not quite sure I understand the question. But in this case here if I was this chap; I would be following the number 3 rule. Tell nobody and secure incriminating evidence (Not even my partner/wife, kids, family member, best friends etc) and then just hope it never comes out. Ultimately reminding myself I am likely to be exposed any moment! The reason I mentioned the injunctions is because with Social Media in the past they have failed completely. I was using previous history and events as examples. Same with choosing to remain anonymous; after a period of time you'll probably find it will come out. There is an injunction in place (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulisa_Contostavlos#Sex_tape) in particular I know of, which it forbids anyone to watch, store, attempt to access, distribute or discuss the content of some video footage. Despite this... If you really wanted to, know where to look, and fancied potentially facing some serious questions to answer; it can be found with relative ease. (That is not an admission of any wrong doing) Why hasn't it been removed despite the injunction? Well I guess those which granted the injunction are still wondering how The Pirate Bay are still operating!! I'm going way off topic here but my comments were based on previous events in the past and my 'knowledge' of digital communications... Note to mods: Please PM me if I need to amend anything that might be too close to the borderline Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: LiskeardRich on April 21, 2014, 18:25:45 ! I don't know about lose job, but disciplinary definitely. I'd be pretty certain there will be confidentiality clauses in the employees contracts that they can't discuss customer details, so we can rule out any details coming from staff at southeastern.Quote There's no injunction on his name....SouthEastern agreed to accept the money & not to name him. Anyone within that company that does will lose their job - enough of a threat to keep them quiet. Ditto anyone with the BTP that might have been involved. Without sound provocative or rude. That is a rather ignorant and very naive way to look at it. There are so many different variables where his name could come out it's impossible to name them all. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Southern Stag on April 21, 2014, 18:31:09 It shows up SouthEastern for their lax ticket checks....and him for not getting the London end right (all he had to do was keep a Zone 1 season (to get him in/out at Cannon Street without flagging up a max fare deduction) on his Oyster & chances are he'd still be doing it.... That would probably have been noticed too. If you only ever touch in/out at Cannon Street it suggests some kind of suspicious behaviour. Even with a Travelcard on Oyster you are still meant to to touch in and out on every journey.Although impractical (impossible??) on a boundary zone season ticket to touch in/out at boundary. What you're meant to do and can do are two different things here. And I don't believe you pick up a max fare 'fine' either? There would be no maximum fare payable. It could potentially draw suspicion on you though. Fine if you are using your ticket correctly, but if you are just using oyster to get through the barriers at London but not paying for a ticket into the country then you risk getting caught. If the gentleman in this case had just bought a Z1 Oyster season rather than paying the maximum fare he still may have been caught.Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Worcester_Passenger on April 21, 2014, 19:03:55 My expectation is that the fare-dodger will be outed by their fellow-commuters from Stonegate.
Whether they get to be named to the outside world might depend on how much they choose to donate to (say) the Stonegate Church Roof Restoration Fund. I would've thought a generous donation of (say) ^42,550 might be enough. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: SDS on April 21, 2014, 19:56:51 My expectation is that the fare-dodger will be outed by their fellow-commuters from Stonegate. Whether they get to be named to the outside world might depend on how much they choose to donate to (say) the Stonegate Church Roof Restoration Fund. I would've thought a generous donation of (say) ^42,550 might be enough. Plus a suggested penalty donation of 10% on top. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ellendune on April 21, 2014, 20:24:08 How many people in Stonegate work for Hedge funds. If I was a HR manager at a Hedge Fund and wanted to protect the companies reputation (assuming they consider a hedge fund has a reputation worth protecting) then I would be looking through the files to see if I had any employees who commute from Stonegate and if I found any I might ask some searching questions.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on April 21, 2014, 21:07:15 How many people commute from Stonegate that know who this individual is? And if so, who they work for?
No reputation to protect there, methinks Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on April 22, 2014, 10:01:42 Quote There's no injunction on his name....SouthEastern agreed to accept the money & not to name him. Anyone within that company that does will lose their job - enough of a threat to keep them quiet. Ditto anyone with the BTP that might have been involved. Without sound provocative or rude. That is a rather ignorant and very naive way to look at it. There are so many different variables where his name could come out it's impossible to name them all. But if Edward Snowdon or Bradley Manning* didn't mind losing their jobs... And someone in Southeastern decided he should be named because (as seems to be general views on this forum) he should have been prosecuted. Then I can't see a threat of losing your job as a 'credible' one. (If that's the right word) Really? Personally, what those two you named released were slightly more important to the citizens of this world that the paltry name of a fare dodger! :-) Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: thetrout on April 22, 2014, 18:37:45 Really? Personally, what those two you named released were slightly more important to the citizens of this world that the paltry name of a fare dodger! :-) I quite agree, which is why I used it as an excellent example... The consequences those two I named face vs. Someone at Southeastern naming the individual and facing their disciplinary. The levels of "breach of contract" couldn't been any more different. What I was trying to show was that some people want and will take the risk and brace themselves for the inevitable storm. I guess it comes down to how loyal someone is to their employer... My understanding is that morale is very low at Southeastern. It seems several posters have seen my line of thought... How many people who live in Stonegate have the odd ^40k lying around? How many of those people then use a train into Cannon Street every day? What are the closest Hedge Fund Organisations near to Cannon Street. You'd break it down block by block, piece by piece. If a competitor really wanted to find out, It wouldn't be too hard to do. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: John R on April 22, 2014, 18:51:09 How many people who live in Stonegate have the odd ^40k lying around? Probably more than you might imagine. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on April 22, 2014, 18:55:46 The majority, I would have thought - its a *very* well to do area....McCartney isn't far away, for example.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: John R on April 22, 2014, 19:09:33 I think this topic has run its course. Maybe we should let it be?
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: thetrout on April 22, 2014, 20:34:55 I think this topic has run its course. Maybe we should let it be? I would be ok with that; I was initially apprehensive about commenting in this thread for fear of it turning into a points scoring argument with mole hills for mountains. Which I didn't want to start up. Thanks all, for taking my comments in good faith and for some interesting discussion :) (Just realised that last part sounds really sarcastic... I've played with how to word it for 5 minutes now and still can't think of a better way to word it. So I'll just say, It's not sarcastic at all so please don't take it that way :) ) Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 22, 2014, 23:28:22 With thanks to everyone who has contributed to this interesting discussion, I'm now going to act on the suggestions of the two most recent posters, and lock the topic.
However, if any new facts emerge, we always have the option of reopening ... ;) Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on May 01, 2014, 11:59:49 A piece in Passenger Transport magazine (http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2014/04/the-largest-fare-evasion-of-all-time-i-think-not/) that makes interesting reading....
Quote Alex Warner believes that the well-publicised case of the hedge fund manager who dodged paying ^42,550 in train fares is the tip of the iceberg Transport industry news bulletins can be predictable ^ the usual guff around franchise awards or extensions, ^jam tomorrow^ station upgrades, big investments, gravy train salaries and big fat fare hikes, you know the score, same-old, same-old, year-on-year. However, one story that stands out from this year^s dross involved my beloved South Eastern Trains ^ playground of my youth and the theatre of my work dreams during the mid-noughties. Last month, there was the story of the hedge fund manager from Stonegate who paid South Eastern back ^42,550 for his five years of systematic fare evasion in return for them protecting his anonymity. Sadly, South Eastern^s not unreasonable decision to take the money and keep the identity of the fraudster under wraps gave the media the opportunity to somehow make them out to be more crooked amongst the sanctimonious media moralists than the deceit that perpetrated this story. Poor South Eastern could do no right. The Stonegate story did, however, reinforce my assertion that you cannot dumb-down revenue protection and it needs to be considered by train operators as a specialist, data-driven resource, not just reliant on high-profile gateline staff acting as manual barriers. From my experience, South Eastern^s revenue protection team has always been top drawer, with the very best skill-set, motivation and leadership, supported by a prosecutions department the envy of most TOCs. However, catching the siphoning snake from Stonegate feels like preventing a terrorist attack ^ you try and convince yourself that robust, intelligence-led operations are providing ongoing protection, but invariably it is only by stumbling across something suspicious, or an error by the criminal, that something alarming is uncovered, exposing the ultimate inadequacy of our defences. If it is as easy as keeping your head down and touching out on an Oyster reader, how many Stonegate situations are occurring daily across the rail network? The story goes that the persistent fraud only emerged when the thieving scum was caught out on one journey and then someone at South Eastern had the nous to notice that he soon after purchased a season ticket. That same employee, presumably, decided to track him down and determine what he^d been doing for the previous five years. Worryingly, all this ensued despite South Eastern having decent front-foot protections in place anyway. One legacy of our stewardship of the South Eastern franchise, post-Connex, was to transform the visibility and effectiveness of the conductors, something the Go-Ahead Group has continued. Disconcertingly, though, despite South Eastern^s revenue protection team^s prowess, it takes an exceptional star within its ranks to uncover Stonegate-style scandals. Across the whole of Britain^s rail network, there probably are only a handful of Poirots and Marples capable of, and determined to, uncover such sophisticated fraud. Most TOCs undertake ^revenue at risk^ surveys which are unscientific and invariably based on rough averages pertaining to the number of folk found without a ticket during a station block or walk through a train, divided by the average fare evaded (diluted because it is invariably based on swallowing the evader^s claim that s/he boarded at the most recent station!). To what extent does a ^Stonegate^ skew the figures, how can the figures factor in fraud on a scale such as this? Should an arbitrary sensitivity be applied? Based on the percentage of determined fraudsters per population head, then there must be Stonegate scenarios being replicated or surpassed every day across the rail network? To test my doomsday scenario, I have recently indulged in some ^fare evasion^. Before you send the heavy mob round my door, I did pay my fare, but pretended that I hadn^t, or in one instance accidentally purchased the wrong ticket. The results were alarming. Returning on separate trips from Burton-on-Trent and Leeds to Shepperton, I used the return portion of previously used, but within date, tickets, rather than the ones I had purchased for these specific journeys. Despite having unprofessional hand-written squiggles on them, no one batted an eyelid and I got through the gateline at Waterloo by waving them at disinterested employees. When I told a few folk ^ decent, well paid, white collar execs, with tickets bought on expenses ^ they responded with incredulity: ^You didn^t work that out? Everyone tries that on and pulls it off!^ A few days later, I inadvertently beat the system. Mistakenly, my PA booked me a Day Travelcard for 5th, instead of 4th, April. So, I spent the day cavorting round London with the next day^s ticket, bemused why gates kept going into ^seek assistance^ mode, but still ushered through by staff and with conductors turning a blind eye. It was only after my sixth journey that I realised the error and bought a new ticket. Other irregularities can be achieved with intent ^ sometimes. I^ve become more brazen lately. Keeping my valid ticket in my pocket, I sneaked through the gates behind another customer at St John^s Wood a few Mondays ago, under the noses of staff, and repeated the feat at Waterloo, Paddington and Kingston in SWT^s backyard, all in the space of a couple of hours. Then there^s the Railcard ^fiddle^ apart from South West Trains at Waterloo, it^s almost unheard of for TOCs to programme their gates so they flag-up tickets purchased with railcards, for closer inspection ^ 34 times I^ve used my Network Railcard in the past year, purchasing tickets from a machine, not once has the card left my wallet. Meanwhile, SWT^s great value Super Off Peak ticket is an even bigger bargain because although it^s not valid on evening peak journeys from London, I^ve never come across or heard of anyone who has been challenged for travelling at this time. If Stonegate occurred where ticket inspection is habitually ensuing, then there^s no hope for the swathes of the network where it doesn^t. Many operators^ approach isn^t particularly rounded, often a case of either on-train or at the station, but rarely in juxtaposition. Anecdotal evidence suggests more open gates at franchises approaching the demotivating fag-end of their franchise term or in the throes of combative extension negotiations, for whatever reason (at some point, I^ll promise to deliver some stunning consultancy research to reinforce this suspicion). Others, such as East Coast, appear to unashamedly open their gates at Kings Cross because they are confident in the vigilance of their conductors. This can be an astute, cost efficient move ^ albeit I travelled to Peterborough and back last week without an inspection. The nadir was reached, however, on Maundy Thursday. I encountered an abrupt Virgin employee at Liverpool Lime Street reacting with suspicion to my questions around departures and Wi-Fi in their ^Lounge^. Outside the desk in which he was rooted, an orderly queue had formed, funnelling through a narrow entrance onto the London-bound platform, complete with notices advising of likely ticket inspections. The availability of the member of staff in close proximity, coupled with the physical set-up of the entrance onto the train and customers who by the nature in which they took the decision to queue suggested an expectation for some kind of ticket check. All these factors were willing Virgin to protect their revenue effectively and with consummate ease. Nothing happened, though ^ not before, during or after our journey. Thrice the cleaners went through the train anxiously clearing rubbish and not once did a conductor appear. On arrival at Euston, instead of checks, a group of Virgin staff turned their backs on customers in animated conversation amongst themselves and with arms draped around each other in a scene more resplendent of an under-18s disco than a high profile, flagship railway station. So, my quick and dirty litmus test reinforces fears that ^Stonegate-gate^ is the tip of the iceberg. If the rich are fiddling it big time, let alone the poor and needy, then we^re stuffed. Throw in some internal fraud (don^t kid yourself it isn^t happening, we all know it is) and the railway has a monumental problem. It^s partly about the leadership of train companies. How often do you see the MDs and their senior bods pacing trains and gatelines checking tickets, or throwing the HQ pen-pushers out onto the network for ^call to arms^, Revenue Protection Days? In my glory years, I witnessed truly great leaders like Michael Holden and David Franks unleashing their ticket stamps every time they set half a foot on their manor ^ day, night and at weekends. They sent clear signals to staff and customers that management was deadly serious about ticketless travel. The media described the Stonegate scandal as the largest fare evasion of all time and it should have provided a wake-up call to an industry in stone-faced denial. Let^s hope so, but for now, I^ll bet you my accidentally twice-used return ticket from Leeds to Shepperton that there are far more whopping hoists ensuing out there ^ on your train home, all around you even, in the slums and in the shires ^ widespread looting of an unimaginable magnitude. God help us all. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: grahame on May 01, 2014, 12:50:38 A piece in Passenger Transport magazine (http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2014/04/the-largest-fare-evasion-of-all-time-i-think-not/) that makes interesting reading.... ChrisB - that's fascinating. But I'm torn in two directions ... On one hand there is a really good general discussion to be had, but on the other hand did Chris from Nailsea re-open the locked topic: With thanks to everyone who has contributed to this interesting discussion, I'm now going to act on the suggestions of the two most recent posters, and lock the topic. However, if any new facts emerge, we always have the option of reopening ... ;) I'm going to quote your post again ChrisB, then split it off into a separate topic for general discussion, and lock this Stonegate-oriented thread. Edit to add (next morning) ... I now understand that thread was unlocked by CfN on request from ChrisB. CfN - like me - saw huge merit in continuing the discussion in a general sense; sorry about my confusion on that. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: grahame on May 01, 2014, 13:04:37 New thread is at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=13947.0 which is in "frequent posters". Whilst the article that ChrisB has posted is pubished elsewhere, we may find that we want to discuss things deeper ...
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: grahame on August 02, 2014, 15:47:37 At the risk of re-kindling a fire, the person concerned has been named here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2713784/Unmasked-City-high-flier-Jonathan-Burrows-dodged-43-000-rail-fares-paid-3-days.html) - the Daily Mail
I am going to unlock the thread should anyone wish to comment, but will be keeping a watch ... Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: LiskeardRich on August 02, 2014, 15:56:27 Being the Daily Mail I will take it with a pinch of salt. ^1m a year, most of us don't earn that in 40 years!
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on August 02, 2014, 16:23:52 That job would easily pay that....
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: John R on August 02, 2014, 16:25:32 Given the comments by his employer, and the fact that the FCA's register of Approved Persons shows him no longer in an AP position since 25/7/14, I think I would tend to believe the Daily Mail in this instance.
On the assumption that the story is accurate, I for one am pleased that he has been exposed. I wonder if he will be as popular down the local golf club (or wherever) this weekend. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Btline on August 02, 2014, 17:58:27 I don't understand why TFL didn't notice that he was only touching out only for 5 years! :o
Surely seeing the maximum fare being paid every day (esp at a London terminal) would arouse suspicions! Perhaps he bought a zone 1 travel card, where I don't think you have to touch in and out. But if that's the case - how did he get caught. Doesn't make sense. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: LiskeardRich on August 02, 2014, 18:28:03 I don't understand why TFL didn't notice that he was only touching out only for 5 years! :o Surely seeing the maximum fare being paid every day (esp at a London terminal) would arouse suspicions! Perhaps he bought a zone 1 travel card, where I don't think you have to touch in and out. But if that's the case - how did he get caught. Doesn't make sense. An unregistered oyster would be untraceable even If suspicion did arise. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 02, 2014, 18:36:01 I don't understand why TFL didn't notice that he was only touching out only for 5 years! :o Surely seeing the maximum fare being paid every day (esp at a London terminal) would arouse suspicions! Perhaps he bought a zone 1 travel card, where I don't think you have to touch in and out. But if that's the case - how did he get caught. Doesn't make sense. Erm, Btline: I think you need to re-read this particular topic from the beginning - it should all become clear. ;) ::) :o Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Btline on August 03, 2014, 22:44:52 I have. It appears Xxxxxx Xxxxxxxx paid the max fare on his Oyster each day. Surely that would have aroused suspicion over the 5 years?!?
If it was unregistered, presumably it would still flag up and if Xxxxxxxx caught the same train each day (there is one morning peak direct to Canon Street service from the Hasting line - so easy) then I'm sure they still could have set up a block on that card and nailed him. For me, the message it sends out is: buy a zone 1 travel-card and travel in from anywhere! Revenue protection is non-existant. If Xxxxxxx had done that then he still would be fare dodging successfully! Edit by admin Btline - I have edited this post to remove the name of the person. Everyone else who's posted (since we re-opened and his name was in the paper and known) has followed this convention ... having had a recent incident in which a newspaper we quoted that included a name lost a supreme court case and we had to change our post like the newspaper did I would prefer to let the newspaper take the full risk in this case ;) Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: thetrout on August 04, 2014, 18:28:22 Interesting footwear choice given 'the suit'
Oh and perhaps I should get a new job in clairvoyance......... :P :-\ :-X Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: John R on August 04, 2014, 20:03:34 Oh and perhaps I should get a new job in clairvoyance......... :P :-\ :-X Except he didn't work for a hedge fund. It seems it all came out because BTP took an interest, and then the FCA got involved, not because somebody put 2 and 2 together. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: SDS on August 05, 2014, 13:04:16 Wow BTP being proactive. Never. Shock.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: basset44 on December 15, 2014, 14:40:42 Hi All,
This has turned out costly for the person Fare-dodging banker banned from City A London banker who regularly avoided buying a train ticket on his commute to the City has been banned from working in the financial services industry. BlackRock director xxxxx was caught by inspectors at Cannon Street station last year and admitted to avoiding the ^21.50 fare from Stonegate in East Sussex. In total, Mr xxxx is believed to have dodged ^42,550 in fares. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30475232 Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on December 15, 2014, 14:52:56 I think you can name him here as he's identified in the article.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: grahame on December 15, 2014, 15:07:21 I think you can name him here as he's identified in the article. Yes, you can ... but thank you for the care. It's even possible for the law to require that articles printed in the press which appear online quite legally to need to be subsequently changed if, for example, an appeal overturns an original decision, and in theory we could be asked (or indeed required) to make changes at a later date. Oh - and while I say "in theory" this has actually happened to us on one occasion. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Tim on December 15, 2014, 16:30:37 I don't understand why TFL didn't notice that he was only touching out only for 5 years! :o Surely seeing the maximum fare being paid every day (esp at a London terminal) would arouse suspicions! Perhaps he bought a zone 1 travel card, where I don't think you have to touch in and out. But if that's the case - how did he get caught. Doesn't make sense. That is what I thought. It just seems to me that he wasn't a very good fare dodger. You and I might have done it differently if we were dishonestly inclined, but the fact that it took 5 years to catch him does not speak very highly of the TOC does it. These are supposed to be money-grabbing capitalist companies after all. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on December 15, 2014, 17:35:10 I suspect he had a zone 1 Travelcard.
He would have needed to touch out/in to get through the barriers at Cannon Street. But just how he managed to avoid on-train checks for 5+ years is beyond me Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: paul7575 on December 15, 2014, 18:09:51 I suspect he had a zone 1 Travelcard. The original story (as in the first post) suggested that he was incurring 'maximum cash fares' for unresolved journeys, which implies he didn't have a travelcard. I think it suited the TOC and TfL not to share the details though... Paul Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: devon_metro on December 15, 2014, 19:20:16 If you have a travelcard and you're in your zone you don't actually need to touch in to exit through the barriers. I've done it at Waterloo before where to exit the mainline station I used my Oyster, thinking it was the entrance to the Underground.
Similarly i've not touched out at my zone 1 station as the barrier which is usually set to exit was in reverse, however was open due to the crowds. No maximum fares for me. Presumably as I had a Z12 travelcard. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on December 16, 2014, 11:43:33 indeed - but to open barriers you do need to touch your Travelcard-loaded oyster, which wouldn't then throw an alert to any watching barrier staff. Although press comment have said he was 'fined' the maximum fare each trip, I think he had the above Travelcard loaded.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: devon_metro on December 16, 2014, 12:22:51 Indeed, i'm suprised the TfL/Oyster fraud department didn't spot it? Then again if there were getting a maximum fare out of him each day...!
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: grahame on March 23, 2015, 04:53:52 Here's a similar example that's just come to court - once again, a very long time to catch him and it ended up being an inspector (and his own guilty feeling?) rather than the Oyster system seeing a pattern
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3006866/Lawyer-faces-jail-scam-avoid-23-000-rail-fares.html Quote Dr Peter Barnett gave himself up after being caught by a ticket inspector Cheated the system travelling from home to London^s Marylebone station The Australian-born lawyer was cautioned for an identical offence in 2010 He pleaded guilty to six counts of fraud by false representation, which carries maximum penalty of ten years in jail Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on March 23, 2015, 10:45:19 Looks like one less commuter from Haddenham & Thame Parkway.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on March 23, 2015, 11:14:07 Looks like one less commuter from Haddenham & Thame Parkway. Sheer greed from one of those who could easily afford the fares............however you have to ask how he managed to get away with for so long, how many others are doing similar, and what is really being done to stop it? Then again if he gets a lengthy stretch it may well prove a deterrent, and a cause a sudden spike in season ticket purchases!!! Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on March 23, 2015, 11:20:08 I see & report pax coming off Mainline trains at least once a week, and draw attention to them if staff are nearby. Chiltern do know it goes on, I suspect others are cauht & don't get the publicity he did
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: thetrout on March 23, 2015, 17:25:59 Thing that gets my back up is if someone with little finance in the bank was caught doing this and couldn't provide a "lump sum" settlement to the TOC... They'd get sent to Prison and the debt probably written off.
But for those who have large sums of money they can pay the TOC off and hope that's the end of the matter. Yet these are the ones who can afford the fares. These are the ones in respected high ranking positions and seem to be able to get away with it. Whilst I am not for a moment suggesting anyone should get off lightly for what is clear, premeditated fare avoidance... It does very much seem one rule for some and one rule for another... :-X :-[ >:( As for the level of fare dodging. I think it's underestimated by TOCs actually. The amount of middle aged folk for example that I've seen get on trains, sit in First Class and openly say "We'll move if someone challenges us, which they won't for Didcot Parkway - Swindon" then on seeing staff come out with "Oh I think we're in the wrong car, we'll move, sorry!" Oh and then the teenagers that hide in between the seat backs... Last time I saw this a Lady reported me to revenue (who were drinking Tea at the other end of the Carriage) for not having a First Class ticket. When challenged I declared "I'm really not the person you're looking for" and typed out a message on my phone for the RPI to read. He then lost interest me and went to grab an MG11 and his colleague. He'd been there a while as the train had called 2 stations since I was onboard. Only reason I spotted him was because I dropped my biscuits... The Lady who 'reported' me made a genuine mistake and to her credit an entirely reasonable one. I had some paperwork on the table which included an expenses claim with a stapled Standard Class ticket from Widnes - Liverpool Lime Street that was just over 4 years old ;D Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: LiskeardRich on March 23, 2015, 17:41:25 I wonder how many other people are doing these maximum fares daily. I bet there is 100s of them out there.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on March 23, 2015, 17:52:04 Thousands I reckon. I really do, across London. And set to get worse when Crossrail comes in.
But I reckon this guy will se jail, Trout. As he should. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on March 23, 2015, 18:16:07 .....what means other than RPIs and ticket gates do the TOCs have to deter/detect ticket fraud? It would be interesting to know, perhaps as a %, how many journeys take place without the correct fare being paid in this manner however very difficult to quantify I guess.......are there any informed estimates?
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: IndustryInsider on March 23, 2015, 18:24:22 There's this press release from ATOC suggesting ^240m a year or 120000 journeys a day.
http://www.atoc.org/media-centre/atoc-press-releases/2013/06/17/240m-cost-of-fare-dodging-on-the-railways-top-10-dodgy-excuses-revealed/ (http://www.atoc.org/media-centre/atoc-press-releases/2013/06/17/240m-cost-of-fare-dodging-on-the-railways-top-10-dodgy-excuses-revealed/) The question is how much should be spent in order to try to put a sizeable dent in that ^240m? If you were to have a combination of barriers at all stations and revenue staff on all trains then it would cost a lot more than that per year I suspect, so it's about getting the balance right. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Btline on March 23, 2015, 22:32:53 Much of the country is now a "free" railway as there are either no guards, or they simply do not bother checking tickets.
Central Trains / London Midland rarely check tickets on the Snow Hill route. I now live in London, and the DLR is effectively a free railway for the dishonest - I see it daily. Same with South Eastern trains - I mean the Stonegate passenger had a journey of well over an hour - the fact that there were no checks in 5 years is a disgrace. Chiltern should learn - if the commuter had bought a Wembley to London season ticket, he would have not been caught! Just having barriers at London will not stop evaders... Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: devon_metro on March 23, 2015, 22:47:33 I now live in London, and the DLR is effectively a free railway for the dishonest - I see it daily. I'm always bemused when exiting my station (which is a terminus) by the amount of people who don't touch out! Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Brucey on March 24, 2015, 07:10:13 I now live in London, and the DLR is effectively a free railway for the dishonest - I see it daily. I'm always bemused when exiting my station (which is a terminus) by the amount of people who don't touch out! Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on March 24, 2015, 10:56:28 There's this press release from ATOC suggesting ^240m a year or 120000 journeys a day. http://www.atoc.org/media-centre/atoc-press-releases/2013/06/17/240m-cost-of-fare-dodging-on-the-railways-top-10-dodgy-excuses-revealed/ (http://www.atoc.org/media-centre/atoc-press-releases/2013/06/17/240m-cost-of-fare-dodging-on-the-railways-top-10-dodgy-excuses-revealed/) The question is how much should be spent in order to try to put a sizeable dent in that ^240m? If you were to have a combination of barriers at all stations and revenue staff on all trains then it would cost a lot more than that per year I suspect, so it's about getting the balance right. That's an incredible figure - I note on another thread that the TOCs are taking a joined up approach to addressing the presumed issue of fraud on delay/repay claims which will surely be dwarfed by the figure of ^240 million............so why can't a joined up approach be taken on this issue too? And please don't hit me with the "well fares will have to go up to pay for it then" angle, if the TOCs are already leaking quarter of a billion then this is a good way of investing in the short term to increase their profits!!! Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on March 24, 2015, 11:02:38 It'll cost more than they'll save....
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: grahame on March 24, 2015, 11:49:19 There's this press release from ATOC suggesting ^240m a year or 120000 journeys a day. That's an incredible figureThere are over 2,500 stations on the network ... the busiest of which has over 240,000 journeys per day. So whilst this is an awful lot of revenue being lost, it (the ATOC estimate) isn't as high as I might have expected. Sadly, I would put their figure as being quite conservative though I'm not sure if their figures are for intentional, premidated evasion, opportunistic evasion, or avoidance of payment because there was no opportunity to pay. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on March 24, 2015, 13:21:49 ^..it would be interesting to know how much the TOCs currently spend on Revenue protection^..additionally surely there is a strategy to target vulnerable areas for ticket fraud (ie busy but unbarriered stations) ^ for example there used to be a college for which Langley station was the nearest stop, however it was unbarriered and many students who used Taplow, Burnham and Iver stations would never buy tickets to Langley as the chances of being caught were minimal and even if it did happen, the penalty fare (which rarely seemed to be enforced) was more than offset by the vast majority of days when they enjoyed ^free^ travel ^ it was a well known dodge, frequently reported to FGW by paying passengers but sadly it was rare than anything seemed to be done about it.
I^m sure there are numerous other examples of this across the network, as opposed to those with (manned) barriers which present a considerable deterrent to all but the more determined? Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Steve Bray on March 25, 2015, 21:28:10 The Dorking Advertiser has a half-page round-up of those people who have committed motoring offences, or who've not paid their TV Licence - that sort of thing, and one of the headings is Rail Fares. The courts are heavily fining those who have been caught travelling without a ticket. For instance, an 18 year old who had not paid a ^7.40 fare was fined ^400, ordered to pay the ^7.40 fare, court costs of ^160 and a victim surcharge of ^40. The highest fine was ^500, presumably because the offender gave a false name and address and he was avoiding a ^3.50 fare.
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: LiskeardRich on March 25, 2015, 21:30:44 The Dorking Advertiser has a half-page round-up of those people who have committed motoring offences, or who've not paid their TV Licence - that sort of thing, and one of the headings is Rail Fares. The courts are heavily fining those who have been caught travelling without a ticket. For instance, an 18 year old who had not paid a ^7.40 fare was fined ^400, ordered to pay the ^7.40 fare, court costs of ^160 and a victim surcharge of ^40. The highest fine was ^500, presumably because the offender gave a false name and address and he was avoiding a ^3.50 fare. My local paper in cornwall has the same. Typical fines are ^400-500 compensation of unpaid fare plus costs and victim surcharge. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Brucey on March 25, 2015, 21:49:59 The sentencing guidelines (http://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/MCSG_web_-_October_2014.pdf) for a Regulation of Railways Act conviction (see page 80 of the PDF) suggest a starting point of a Band A fine for "Failing to produce ticket or pay fare on request" or Band B fine for "Travelling on railway without having paid the fare or knowingly and wilfully travelling beyond the distance paid for, with intent to avoid payment".
Band A is typically 50% of weekly income, with a discretionary range of 25-75%. Band B is 100%, with a range of 75-125%. In serious cases, the Band A can be increased to Band B; and the Band B increased to Band C (150% of weekly income). This can then be reduced for a guilty plea, mitigating reasons, etc. I believe a basis of ^350 weekly income can be used where the defendant does not supply adequate information to the court about their income. On this basis and also the typical income of an 18-year-old, I would guess that a fine of ^400-500 would suggest these cases are at the more serious end of the spectrum. It does make me wonder whether the fines are disproportionately too large. For example, would someone guilty of theft of a ^3.50 item from a retail store be fined ^500 plus considerable costs? Also I wonder whether "on the spot fines" (i.e. a larger penalty fare but with an independent appeals process) would actually be more of a deterrent as people would see their fellow passengers being dished out with "fines", rather than just having their details taken. Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: thetrout on March 26, 2015, 00:11:09 Band A is typically 50% of weekly income, with a discretionary range of 25-75%. Band B is 100%, with a range of 75-125%. In serious cases, the Band A can be increased to Band B; and the Band B increased to Band C (150% of weekly income). This can then be reduced for a guilty plea, mitigating reasons, etc. That is a very interesting read. Allow me to open a very large tin of worms. This is an entirely different Kettle of Fish... But lets look at someone who is in receipt of State Welfare benefits as a sole income. The payment rate of "This is the amount the Law says you need to live on" Which is the exact word for word statement on a Benefit Entitlement letter such as Job Seekers Allowance and Employment & Support Allowance. I can't see how any financial penalty can be imposed in such cases?! The obvious answer is DO NOT avoid payment of your fare! But it would be spurious to suggest that such extreme cases do not occur. So I do wonder how such things would be dealt with. Frankly, I cannot see a Court imposing a payment order of 50% which could very well be 100% of a defendants Housing Benefit. 50% of weekly income for someone on State Benefit would cause extreme hardship. Purely for speculation, playing devils advocate and some light heartedness: "Greedy Train Company receives award from Fare Dodgers Housing Benefit" Would be a lovely Daily Wail headline... When looking at Civil Consumer Credit Act Debts such as Unsecured Personal Loans, Credit Cards etc. If a debtor falls into genuine financial difficulty and resorts to State Benefits. It's well known that Courts have awarded ^1 per month to the creditor in such cases. So are such cases dealt with by means of suspended judgement until circumstances improve (if ever) or more harsher punishments given such as prison sentences? Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: ChrisB on March 26, 2015, 09:34:44 Dedected from benefit payment at a small ^10/^20 per week generally
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: rogerw on March 26, 2015, 12:17:13 As someone who deals with these sorts of matters I will throw a few things into the hat. If a defendant does not give any information as to their income this is assumed as ^400/week. A fine of ^400 pounds suggests that the defendant had not even contacted the court and the matter was dealt with in absence. As far as those on benefits are concerned, income is assumes as ^110/week with housing benefit not being taken into account. Payment rates in those cases are generally ^5/per week
Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: devon_metro on March 27, 2015, 23:58:49 I now live in London, and the DLR is effectively a free railway for the dishonest - I see it daily. I'm always bemused when exiting my station (which is a terminus) by the amount of people who don't touch out! Interesting, do I need to touch in when travelling in the morning? (I travel to a mainline terminus with barriers) Title: Re: 'Hedge fund manager in ^42,550 train fare dodge' - ongoing discussion Post by: Brucey on March 28, 2015, 08:17:35 Interesting, do I need to touch in when travelling in the morning? (I travel to a mainline terminus with barriers) Provided your journey stays entirely within the zones covered by your Travelcard, then no. In these cases, Oyster just acts as a medium on which a season ticket is stored.This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |