Great Western Coffee Shop

A brief summary - last few days, next few weeks ...

7th February 2014 - TransWilts CRP AGM, County Hall, TROWBRIDGE.
10th February 2014 - Melksham Rail Link Bus starts
11th February 2014 - Meeting of FGW area CRPs near Newton Abbott
* 12th February 2014 - Update for Wiltshire Councillors - Melksham area board
* 28th February 2014 - Melksham Rail Development Group, MELKSHAM
1st March 2014 - Travel Watch South West, Taunton
* 22nd March 2014 - TransWilts Link, the Laverton, WESTBURY

I have just heard that the FGW meeting tomorrow has been postponed / new date to be advised.  While the 'only' problem was the sea wall at Dawlish, it seemed sensible for it to go ahead - however, I appreciate the difficult and probably wise decision to move it to a later date.   Meetings marked with "*" are open for all

I'm fully expecting this to be postponed too. Connections are already tight for those coming from West of Exeter to make the start, and for the sake of postponing & rearranging, possibly better to postpone till after Easter rather than those attendees getting up practically before they've gone to bed in order to catch a bus/coach....

Journey times from Plymouth to Taunton, for example, are only extended by around 30 minutes with the replacement road transport. All the bus connections from west of Exeter, as advised on the TWSW website, will still be running.

Piggy backing on this thread if there are trains to Sough on Friday evening or you can drive then Slough and Windsor Railway Society will be host to Councillor Bqthurst of RBWM who is one of the proponents of the Windsor Link. He will ouline the scheme to link the two lines by a tunnel under Windsor. An interesting thought, in teh light off current events, they also want to be in a tunnel at Datchet to eliminate the level crossing.

Meetng 19:45 in the Manor the Grey building West  carpark South side (Tesco) Slough Station opposite Windsor Bay. Entrance ^4.

Unfortunately I will not be there but I've heard the talk, very intersting with its steeper than  1:25 gradients.

http://windsorlink.co.uk/ (http://windsorlink.co.uk/)

Buses to the venue leave TAU at 1030 & 1055. Just how early will you need to leave PLY to make these times?
And what about all thouse coming from between Exeter & PLY?

There are TWSW buses running from Exeter Bus Station, and TWSW have listed scheduled bus services that'll connect into these:

• Bideford The Quay (Stagecoach South West service 315) at 0640hrs
• Bude Strand (Stagecoach South West service X9) at 0625hrs
• Crediton High Street (Stagecoach South West service 50) at 0829hrs
• Exmouth Parade (Stagecoach South West service 57) at 0811hrs
• Newton Abbot Sherborne Road (Stagecoach South West service X64) at 0750hrs
• Paignton Bus Station (Stagecoach South West service X46) at 0710hrs
• Plymouth Bretonside Bus Station (Stagecoach South West service X38) at 0645hrs
• Sidmouth Triangle (Stagecoach South West service 52B) at 0758hrs
• Torquay Strand (Stagecoach South West service X46) at 0725hrs
• Totnes Royal Seven Stars (Stagecoach South West service X64) at 0730hrs

If you look at the TWSW demographic, many will choose these options as they don't cost them anything!

For those coming from Plymouth and Cornwall, the journey time to Taunton is only around 30 minutes longer than would normally be possible. 1st March updated train/replacement coach services aren't in journey planners yet, but I see that it is currently possible to get to Taunton for 1050, leaving Plymouth at 0845. Coach to Exeter, then train from there. If trains were running OK on Sat 1st March folk would be leaving Plymouth at 0849 for a 1022 arrival.

Not forgetting, those that take the train/replacement coach get a 25% discount on their fare.

I really do hope that TWSW don't cancel the meeting. That would be defeatist. But some on this board seem to think we should all stay at home...

They aren't intending to.....from their meeting co-ordinator


See you there? (assuming services into TAU from the East/north can get through on the day.)

An eminently sensible decision (if indeed a decision was needed) at this time.

It's probably wise to give thought to 'extreme circumstances' when arranging events ... and in the case of TravelWatch SouthWest, a further big storm on (or forecast for) 28th February, with Athelney flooded, Cowley Bridge under water, trees down at Lavington and water over the top of the rails between Didcot and Oxford would probably be a set of circumstances such that the organisers might be wiser to postpone.   But we're a long, long, long, long way from that.

We seem to have moved into a mad world where the official message on the South West is "closed for business" when in reality many journeys in local areas especially can and should go ahead as normal.  "Is the TransWilts running?" ... Yes, it is, and getting people to use the new service when floods, doom, gloom, and big red banners asking "is your journey necessary" are putting people off.   Yes, tell 'em that there will be delays.   That it's better to avoid the peak hours in certain places ... but don't close the whole quadrant of the country for the next three weeks, please!

Travel Watch South West GOES AHEAD ... (not really news, but there have been various rumours of postponement). 

Questions about getting there from Swindon and Didcot ...

08:36 train, change at Westbury, 10:38 into Taunton
15:19 train from Taunton, change at Westbury, 17:22 into Swindon

Change at Swindon for Didcot, etc

The 1519 isn't shown as running where I'm looking....

The 1529 is however, calling Castle Cary & Reading. I'm heading for Reading, changing there for Didcot.

If you want to catch the earlier bus from TAU to the meeting that leaves at 1030, catch the 0730 ex-PAD at Swindon 0801, to BRI arr 0845. Coach from there dep 0855, arr TAU 1010.

Sorry, seems that this may be running....

Taunton 15:23GW
Reservations available First and standard class Buffet service
Frome15:55/15:55
Westbury16:05/16:08
Pewsey16:25/16:25
Hungerford16:39/16:39
Newbury16:48/16:49
Newbury Racecourse (P)16:54/16:54
Thatcham17:00/17:01
Theale17:09/17:10
Reading17:17

I've just been advised by FGW....


So don't yet bank on getting there by 1045....

Journey Planners I've told, have been updated overnight.

The 0730 ex-PAD is now running to EXD, via -
0757 RDG
0812 DID
0830 SWI
0844 Chippenham
0911 Westbury
0946 TAU

The agenda has been published in draft - Mark Hopwood on the new franchise too.

1100hrs - 1. Welcome and introduction
1115hrs - 2. ^The New Great Western Franchise Agreement^ - Mark Hopwood, Managing Director, First Great Western
1215hrs - 3. ^The Resilience of the Regional Road Network^ - Matthew Goggins, Head of Public Affairs ^ UK Coach, National Express Group
1245hrs - 4. ^Talking Point^

1250hrs - Lunch

1330hrs - 5. ^Just A Minute^
1345hrs - 6.  ^The Resilience of the Regional Rail Network^ A Senior Executive from Network Rail (to include an up-to-date briefing on the current railway line closures in Cornwall, Devon and Somerset)
1445hrs - 7. Report from the Chair
1450hrs - 8. Any Other Business
1455hrs - 9. Closing Remarks
1500hrs - Close

I wonder if demand on the day would justify an extra stop in that revised 0730 service...

Looks like I'll be heading to Chippenham to pick up that revised 0730 service.

see you on board....possibly. Likely to upgrade to weekend first....

Looks like I'm on 07:48 from Melksham, change at Chippenham.  
Alternative is 09:20 from Melksham which is a bit late

Return at 15:19 and change at Westbury (arr 16:47)
OR
Return at 15:29 and change at Castle Cary, Bath Spa and Chippenham (arr 18:02)

I'm offered a return fare of 19.90 for the 09:20 out and for either the 15:19 or the 15:29 back - so the journey via Chippenham IS an allowed route.   However, no fares are offered for the 07:48 out via Chippenham.  Very curious this - it appears that the fare is valid from Westbury to Chippenham via Bath Spa with a change there, but NOT on the direct line from Chippenham to Westbury. Seems rather unfair;  First HAVE done a very job of fixing most of the "via Melksham" anomalies, and indeed I'm very happy with the "via Melksham" fares.  Do we have an anomaly of some sort here?


Hee hee ... tell us of a trip out possibility a few months ahead, and we would have made the stop worthwhile ... but this is too short notice.   Of course, none of us had good notice of the ferocity of the winter storms and their aftermath, so such notice was impossible in this case.

I'm glad to see Easter and Mayday Bank Holiday plans published (even though Mayday is bustitution in our case) as that lets us plane ahead

Are there any trains in service on the from you on the Chippenham - Westbury direct route? If not, that'll be why the fare doesn't exist on that route. If there are, then yes, you have an anomaly. Happy to pass it on to their fares guru if you ask nicely :-)

As this is a re-routed train, the walk-up fares should be valid that way. If your fare is an Advance, I guess that's tough....

I'm not sure you can fly that trip yet though :-)

Hmm. ::)  In view of all this uncertainty and confusion, I rather think I will be driving from Nailsea to Taunton and back on Saturday.  :o

Idle chit chat with some FGW suits today. Strong suggestion that the 0730 from Paddington is being re-routed again this Saturday to Exeter, so that it could provide a through rail option to Taunton for those travelling to TWSW from the Thames Valley and Swindon. One of those likely to be travelling is a certain resident of Pangbourne with the initials MH. I believe he has a bit of clout when it comes to varying timetables.  ;)

The 0730 is back to terminating at Bristol on Monday.

Advise from National Rail is that I will need 2 tickets to make the journey. I take the 07:48, buying a Melksham to Swindon day return at 6.70, then a Swindon to Taunton return at 36.00.  And that I need to travel back on a train via "the same route".  I seriously questioning the correctness of the advise given - no doubt those tickets would be valid, but I don't think it's the cheapest fare  :-\

An unusual case - with few exceptions (summer Fridays and diversions) all TransWilts trains call at Melksham; to be 100% valid I'll probably buy an 18 pound Westbury to Taunton off peak day return, a single Melksham to Chippenham at 3.60 and a Chippenham (via Melksham) to Westbury off peak return at 5.50. I believe "via Melksham" means "stopping at or passing through" in this case, doesn't it?   Cheaper at 27.10 than national rail advise which added up to 42.70 and required me to go via Swindon both ways.

To fulfill the requirements of a 'via' fare you are correct that a service you wish to use merely has to pass through the 'via' point. It doesn't have to call, and diverted services are perfectly acceptable.

And I think you've found the best combination of fares for your needs. I did look at the Heart of Wessex Day Ranger, plus an Off Peak Day Return from Castle Cary to Taunton, but that comes out at ^27.70, 60p more than the options you've found.

Yup - see my post above.


Indeed, I don't think he fancied over an hour on one of their replacement buses!

I am not sure there would have been the same result had it been a weekday service.  The 07:30 from Paddington, while normally my train to the West Country from Swindon, is also an important commuter train for Swindon, Chippenham and Bath passengers between the intermediate stations and Bristol.

MH has pulled out of tomorrow's meeting....instead we have Matthew Golton & Ben Rule, with Patrick Hallgate from NR in the pm.

Today's TravelWatch SouthWest meeting in Taunton was excellent - the guest speakers from First Great Western and Network Rail gave up-to-the-minute, open and honest accounts of how their respective organizations are dealing with the current infrastructure problems.

Indeed a useful meeting.  Here is, extended, a comment I made to the moderator team.

There's always a difficult balance between supporting the powers that be and the service providers in their endeavours for passengers, and opposing (or at least questioning) some of their activities and proposals which may not be in the interest of passengers.   

I personally started off / attended my first meetings in the public transport arena with some strong questioning, looking to understand / get answers to questions which I felt might not have been properly, fully, openly explored and looking at conclusions that had been reached that appeared to be contrary to the interests of the travelling / wannabe travelling public.  Over the years, I have come to understand that although there are unpallettable answers at times, most of the answers are for a reason, and if I can understand the reason I have a better chance of asking further questions and making suggestions that will strengthen the case for a better answer.  I have also learned that there are a very great number of experts and enthusiastic advocates of improving public transport, often in surprising official / operational / governmental / commercial management positions who really believe in doing all they can to grow the business / use in a sensible way with controlled risk, and who are often constrained / thwarted / working around loads of other interests, systems and laws, precedents or precedents not to be set.

So today, whilst I still find myself asking difficult questions at times, I'm in a very much more community / supportive role.  To some extent "poacher turned gamekeeper".  But it's important to realise that it's in the interests of both the poacher and the gamekeeper to have a strong stock of game available.

Some of the "politicing" at TravelWatch SouthWest concerns me.  "Renationalise the railways" sits at a point in the political spectrum where - for those who advocate it strongly - may detract from the immediate co-operation that would otherwise be offered / enjoyed by those who are very much part of the current system, to the detriment of shorter term gains.  Yet at the same time, our friends in the transport business (whether company or public sector based) do still need to be questioned.    I sense TWSW moving more political and campaigning yesterday, but perhaps that's because I've moved much more main stream, feeling that for the most part we can all work together to make things happen in our common interest, and the interest of the community around us.   Being "travel", that community extends far beyond MBY (My Back Yard) and to the town, the region, and the country.

I am going to document some issues raised yesterday that are a concern and campaigning / better informing may be needed.

a) I don't know the Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton route, but I did note with concern that some senior figures are evaluating it as an extra way to Plymouth based on the time taken by the few through trains that ran in the final, rundown days of the line, with lots of stops and start, rather than the time taken on it when it was a mainline, or the time that would be taken on it were it a new mainline with modern trains

b) National Express Coaches presented their company and plans (and very positive they were too).  They talk of key routes, major flows, great vehicles and good frequencies.  What they didn't talk about was that "branch" network to Ilfracome, Westward Ho!, Frome, and other towns and villages served once a day.  It took an audience member to ask about pricing that seems to exclude the branch network from the better deals, and talking to the speaker afterwards I do question whether a Beeching style cut of these branches isn't impossible.

c) Recent rises in fares on buses - 33% (3 to 4 pounds in one case), and 42% (7 to 10 pounds for a lesser product) in another, and withdrawal of multi journey tickets forcing paying customers to pay more are a concern;  huge increases make it very difficult to persuade people to make more use of the bus, even though 'sustainable' and 'CO2 footprint' is what we're about these days. The explanation, perhaps, is in the concessionary fares system through which most (?) passengers on may buses don't pay as they travel - they're paid for by their local council at a percentage of the fare that the few (?) 'normal' passengers pay.

d) There are concerns at the Wiltshire and Swindon to Bath and North East Somerset border in terms of future planning.  It's good to have the LEPs and other somewhat wider metro areas taking a view on transport as it helps to reduce the number of artificial interfaces, but there are still boundaries and as the various transport responsible bodies cover a wider area, they need to remember not only long distance travel beyond (which they seem good at), but also over-border shorter distance traffic.   BaNES plans to provide jobs for many residents in West Wiltshire, but I remain unconvinced that the daily travel and transport issues across the boundary and part of any greater hub.  It was noticeable that the biggest flow on the TransWilts service yesterday afternoon was Trowbridge (passengers changing from Bristol / Bath) to Melksham

There is also very much the need for the community to be kept informed to make inputs where appropriate.   There's something of a mystery at present around "First Somerset" becoming "Buses of Somerset". Stated as being to differentiate local companies, but it's interesting to note that that Buses of Somerset website has zero reference to First - or any other owning company.  And the style does look much closer to another bus company - go ahead and take a look at the site.   Now - I'm not saying that legally there's any requirement to declare who owns a bus company, but am I alone in wondering is it's a bit disrespectful to customers not to say who you really are when providing a service?

Then there's the interesting issue as to what's good for one group may not be good for another.  To start a new service where there's a real need, or to use stock to provide extra capacity on existing services.   To run trains between "L" and "P" stopping only at "E" along the way, and scheduling them at 3 hours, or to run much more frequent services from "L" to "P" stopping at "R", "W", "T", "E", "N" and "T" along the way, in 3 hours 20 minutes.  Whether it's good to electrify though places like "B" and "P" to "W" giving them a frequent stopper service, or to continue to serve them will occasional high speed trains with less stops into London.

Correction made ... I understand that a significant local flow is developing along the Trowbridge / Melksham / Chippenham corridor, with many people finding the service fast, reliable, comfortable, well priced, and running for more days of the week than alternative public transport.  So I have crossed out my assertion that the block of people getting on at Trowbridge and off at Melksham were simply changing trains at Trowbridge.  With that change, my comment about the SWLEP report should be substantially more positive on this aspect. On virtually all other matters, I wholeheartedly comment the report.

To be honest, I think this is an example of where everybody concerned (including ourselves) at these meetings & associated spin-off gatherings has their own views, positions and aims that they want to see moved forward. In such cases, it is important to take these views on board and consider them, rather than take them as read and see them as justification for a significant shift in emphasis.

For example, it would be a shame if what I feel is a pretty good overall report (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=13641.msg149611#msg149611) ended up being sidelined as irredeemably flawed due to concerns that are either a matter of debate or purely cosmetic.

Also, I personally think that the relatively high Trowbridge to Melksham figures recorded yesterday are more indicative of the natural difference between leisure and travel-to-work flows, and the overall count evidence so far does back this up. Whilst it is important that we give such traffic flows due weight, they should not in themselves be seen as a justification for a significant change in emphasis.


Indeed. I have speculated along those lines myself whilst, in the tradition of balance for which this forum is rightly proud, offered an alternative explanation as well:


I guess you will just have to go ahead and decide for yourselves  ;D

Agreed. and not just from the floor, but the audience. One good example was the uninformed gent who tried to object to HS2 on the grounds of the 'extra 20 minutes cut from journey times" argument, which was shown to be non-existent some time ago and accepted by all political parties that capacity is the sole reason it's needed. It's a shame no one pointed out to him that the WCML is full, with very few additional paths available - while his GWML has plenty of paths but no justification in terms of demand for additional trains to PLY. What is needed is for the Business mandarins of PLY and the wider SW to present a business plan showing the demand for additional trains & also backing up the additional call for faster trains (with Patrick Hallgate from NR pointing out that the only way to do this is to remove stops as trains can't go faster for longer owing to the shape of the route). So far, all we get is bluster and exaggerated unsubstantiated earnings figures!


Simply because that is the way it will be used. Local pressure from the area of damage will prevent the new line becoming the 'Main Line', coz the current line area don't want to lose their mainline status. So the new line will just be a diversionary line, thus little point in spending the extra billions (even the extra 0.xx billion) in making it 125mph...it'll be used by mainline only when Dawlish is damaged again, and that may not be for years after its complete. As Patrick Hallgate said yesterday, his report won't be able to recommend spending that sort of money on a line that will only be a diversionary route.

More in the Dawlish thread methinks


Agreed - the NE guy did point out that they get zero subsidy & have to make commercial decisions.


Yup - they're doing this to push up the amount of subsidy councils pay for the free trips being made by Freedom Pass holders. It'll end in tears with Councils having to make additional cuts in order to fund this. While at the same time, pushing the under 65s off the buses owing to the high fares. Ouch coming up in a year or so.


That also applies to TWSW too - when was  the last time they gathered input from all their members to inform their campaigning? Some time ago, and I think some of the contra comments from the audience showed that up, in that they are starting not to speak for the all....they need to design in some way of getting input....

Interesting that HS2 is all about capacity now. Why hasn't it been renamed and downgraded engineering wise to say, 140mph if 'High Speed' is no longer the reason? I'd suggest there's a good deal of politicing going on there as well by folk at the DfT and HS2 Ltd scrabbling around to try and make the justification for the astronomical expense.

As for capacity on the WCML. Have you taken a Pendolino (three an hour x11 coaches remember) to Manchester or Birmingham at any time other than between 1630 and 1900. Plenty of fresh air being carted around and using up valuable paths that could be better put to serving semi-fast services on the southern end of the WCML.

There's a lot of bluster and unsubstantiated earnings figures coming from the pro-HS2 camp as well.

The reason for building the line is capacity.  The question should be if you are building a new line is there a business case for making it high speed?


That is all very well but what if the people who want to use the southern end of the WCML want to use it in the morning and evening peaks?


I am afraid our media and all the PR consultants on both sides don't believe our brains could handle all that information if they gave it to us.

Firstly, I agree that the report is pretty good in general and should make that clear.

Secondly, I have gathered further evidence this afternoon which points to local flows developing Trowbridge - Melksham - Chippenham where I had incorrectly assigned passengers to Melksham to an origin at Bath Spa and beyond.  I was wrong in at least part of my assumption, and that mitigates the critical comments I made about a single element of the report.   I have gone back and added a correction on the end of the original post too.