Great Western Coffee Shop

Posted in Smoke and Mirrors as this covers issues all over the UK. And of course the board title is a completely accurate description of events in this post... :-X

Saturday 21/12/2013 I took 1A37, the 22:43 from Bath Spa - London Paddington. Seems simple enough, except the Driver was stuck on a Down service to Bristol Temple Meads running 103 minutes late (19:30 PAD - BRI).

Consequently there were over 200 people on the platform by this point and it became a very tense moment as to whether 2C38 (23:29 Bristol Temple Meads - Frome) was going to leave before 1A37, our now very late Paddington train. Thankfully someone, somewhere let the Paddington train out first otherwise it have caused serious problems. Needless to say First Class was gatecrashed by the hoards of people at Bath Spa and no ticket checks were made... (To be honest I can't blame the poor TM who I think also lost the will to live...!)

Our driver was excellent however and I had a brief chat with him upon alighting at Paddington as he made up 25 minutes between Paddington and Reading, So I passed on my thanks and said I enjoyed the bash. He told me it would have been as 'little' as 15 minutes had we not been stuck behind a stopping service to Paddington and seemed genuinely pleased with my comments! ;D See here:  http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P70089/2013/12/21 (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P70089/2013/12/21) Most of the gatecrashing, chanting, public affection displaying (Facebook will tell all on that one...*evil laugh* ;) ) folks left us by Swindon and I availed myself of the Buffet Car where I was presented with this >:( >:( >:( >:(

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-6hIJqi2GCTo/UrZ-7MGD0vI/AAAAAAAABdQ/PzVpc5XMELc/w342-h608-no/20131221_235524.jpg)

Then I spotted the comment about instant and I stopped flapping :D ;) ;D

This is where I had the problems. I had to make the 02:00 Service from London Victoria - East Croydon. Simple enough Bus Journey on the Number 36 except it was looking very tight in terms of meeting the connection. I spoke to a member of staff who said it was pointless providing me a taxi to Victoria as by the time it was arranged the train would have left. They advised me to head down to Victoria and in get them to phone Paddington if the brown stuff hit the fan...!

So I made the bus journey down to Victoria and the bus dropped me off in what is an awfully laid out building site and with absolutely dreadful signage, Infact, considerably worse than my Billeracy farce. This is consequently the route I ended up taking to walk to the Front Entrance: https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zBh3F8iprfeQ.knoGp9P6qPKY (https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zBh3F8iprfeQ.knoGp9P6qPKY)

Just over 900 metres. Considering my current capabilities, I was absolutely exhausted by the time I got a 3rd of the way into that walk. Put it this way, nearly 3 hours later and I am seriously feeling the effects.

All the side entrances were closed and locked. Infact that was just the tip of the iceberg. I eventually got round to the front entrance and it became clear I had missed the train, not only that but I found myself at the main entrance which was completely locked and closed. There were people standing around looking lost and a little worse for wear. A group of girls on a night out sat on the floor signing Christmas songs.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3GAtV3qLlIc/UrZ_Ab1aO6I/AAAAAAAABdg/wCVgyey3-E0/w958-h539-no/20131222_022321.jpg)

What do you see? I'll tell you what I don't see.............. Any Railway Staff WHATSOEVER!! >:( >:( :-X :-\

Here is another showing the ungodly hour for good measure (Long Live the Network SouthEast Clock!! ;D )

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Vd4pcPQOoeI/UrZ-9MSFFRI/AAAAAAAABdY/10USOEPxmCg/w958-h539-no/20131222_021430.jpg)

So consequently no-one to supply me with a taxi to ECR which being over an hour late I was reasonably entitled to. Having looked at the departure board I am presented with a train to ECR at 03:00. Problem being by the time I got there, get to the hotel, check in and turn out for the day. I might as well have gone to Liverpool Street and resumed my journey as planned on the first available train and have a nap at ladyfriend trout^ house.

So I gave up and jumped on the Number 11 to Liverpool Street Station. The journey with little traffic around was both quick and comfortable. Sadly the driver seemed genuinely surprised when I thanked him (Something I^ve always done) when alighting at Liverpool Street Station (The N11 Terminates there). That is something I always find depressing when someone seems taken aback when being thanked for something. Even more depressing is when staff seem surprised that you're still being nice to them when it^s all crashing down around them :-\

Whilst yes I could have gone to the hotel, had I have taken my medication and fallen asleep I would NOT have woken up before check out time, Thus incurring god knows what charges! This has the useful effect however in delaying the administration, that allows me to stay awake for much, much longer...! Then this creates another few issues but I'll leave it there as it's not all that relevant. However the principle is the whole saga has caused my medical issues to flare up and I should be in the hotel and not even writing this...! :-X :-[ :-\

Anyway I digress, But if I had stayed till 3AM I fear some poor sod at Victoria Railway Station would have received a severe, but profanity free verbal battering on accessibility of staff in periods of Railway Disruption and a duty of care regarding the purpose of travel to passengers who have entered into a Contract via a ticket purchase.

Consequently I decided to abandon travel and technically invalidate my ticket in doing so (1ST Advance) and I write this from a 24 hour restaurant/diner which has offered excellent loudish music and table service. It's been worth the nightmare to find this little gem :)

So, FGW send me to Victoria Station to become someone else's problem... My OWN problem ::) >:( :-X

I tried to phone FGW and Southern Railway but both had closed call centres so I didn^t bother. Phoned NRES who told me to wait for the 3AM Service, I stated that delayed passengers where entitled to alternative travel (was slightly economical with the truth over the phone, overseas call centre and couldn^t be bothered to tolerate nonsense) and I got told that there are no staff till 07:00 and to take the next available service... Yeah... Right... Who despatches the 03:00 or even DRIVES the bluddy thing if there are no staff >:( :-X :-\

Incidentally this happened to me at Weston-Super-Mare earlier this week where they sent me to Bristol during disruption and I missed the 23:20 to Frome. However the Station Manager at BRI was very good and when I told him the headcodes of the affected services he looked and said "You^ve been HST bashing then?!" but even then that experience meet a similar downfall when responsibility was handed over to the Taxi Firm and the driver got lost even with a SatNav and me telling him it was the correct direction ::) (Story for another day that one!)

Am now out of pocket for the Hotel as it was a non-refundable booking and severely p1ssed off annoyed at the lack of information given at Victoria, The way FGW sent me to my own demise (Albeit the staff might not have realised that could happen) and the accessibility of the whole station in general.

So consequently I will be writing to FGW and especially Southern regarding the whole farcical blunder to which I, perhaps, only have myself to blame. But it's the principle here rather than the financial loss. To blow my trumpet for a second here, I know an awful lot of people who would have stood around in complete panic/dismay in what to do having been faced with this situation. I managed it despite my many downfalls but that being said, many wouldn't have done.

But I am posting this whilst playing devils advocate; as I would be interested to see if this is a more common problem than people [want to] believe? Also, what would you have done in these circumstances?

I can tell you, if I were the inexperienced traveller, we all hear of those horror stories of passengers saying they^ll never use Rail again^ This would be one of them. However it^ll take a lot more to keep me away from a train ;D

So, please do discuss?!

Oh crumbs, what a tale of woe.  I admire your dedication for vowing your continued loyalty to the railways!  I can't imagine how I'd have coped, as a newbie rail user under those circumstances, but I don't think the episode would have helped to wean me away from my car. 

As I am more often than not, travelling with my dog, life would have become very uncomfortable for Echo; easy enough usually to find a drink/snack for yourself, but I don't think dogfood vending machines are that common at railway stations?!  I'm almost wishing I hadn't read your posting!

I think the first thing I would have done would be not to have booked such a late train, which even if on time was relying on a late cross London connection on the last Saturday before Xmas, and would have got you to Croydon in the early hours. Given that you've mentioned that your medical condition makes you less able than most to cope with disruption, it might be better to plan your journeys (and even your diary as a whole) to give more margin for error when things go wrong.

In all fairness to FGW the train was "only" 28 minutes late.  62 minutes is advised to cross from Paddington to Victoria, and the timetable notes that extra time should be allowed during the late evening and on Sundays. I notice trying to book a similar journey in a couple of Saturdays that the journey details note the need to take a taxi or a night bus. I certainly wouldn't have booked such a journey, and I'm not sure FGW had any responsibility to do more than they did for a journey that was less than 30 minutes late.

Sorry if you think that's harsh, but my advice would be to give yourself more leeway when making your travel arrangements. For your own health if nothing else.

If the journey is offered with official connections then the onus is on the railways to get you there, disability or no disability.

To suggest one shouldn't travel at certain times because of disability is hardly fair. If the rail companies themselves were to suggest that they might well find themselves on the wrong side of The Equality Act 2010.

A 0045 (if on time, Working Timetable actually 0040^) arrival at Paddington for a 0200 departure from Victoria is 75 minutes. 21% more than the recommended minimum. Is that not enough margin for error?

What do you propose it should be? 50%? Double?

In law, reasonable adjustments need to be made so that disabled travellers are not disadvantaged. Suggesting they change their diary, travel earlier, add in more margin for error than an able bodied person would require, are all unreasonable in my opinion. It is the service provider that must make adjustments, not the customer/passenger.

In this instance, staff at Paddington should not have passed the problem on to Victoria.

Having said all that however, I'm of the opinion that a Bath Spa to East Croydon ticket should not be sold for the last train to Paddington. The ticket is sold with an itinerary that requires use of the Underground. With an arrival time of 0045, this is too late for the last Bakerloo Line tube to Oxford Circus (0022), thence Victoria Line to Victoria.

But, whilst they continue to be sold, the rail industry MUST ensure they get the passenger, who has entered into the contract, to their destination.

BNM - I suspected I would get a response like that - all part of the healthy debate we have here on the Forum, and it's a personal opinion.

You say that the railway shouldn't offer such a ticket for the last train, and I'm in full agreement with that.  So I don't know what I would propose as a suitable connection - I wouldn't!

A couple of points are relevant here with regard to disabilities.  The ticket was sold with a routing that said that a passenger would need to take night buses or a taxi, and so it is the responsibility of the individual, knowing the extent of their disability, to judge whether or not they are able to make the journey within the normal time or allow extra. Secondly, when booking a ticket online, the facility exists to allow extra time for the transfer. If it had been used, as might be expected for passengers with certain disabilities, it would have quoted a departure one hour later from Victoria, ie the 0300.

I'd also be interested to know whether a 1 hr delay in journey justifies the use of a taxi. What happens if people miss a connection at Exeter for Barnstaple? Are they routinely taxied or told to wait for the next one an hour later?

The final point was really a bit of life advice, and I hoped would be taken as such. If things going wrong are going to impact someone so much, and potentially impact on a disability, then they are probably best advised to plan accordingly. With the best will in the world, things do go wrong, and a delayed train at 8pm is much less likely to cause stress than one at 1am.   As I said, I wouldn't have tried making a journey that would have got me to Croydon at 0230 and involved crossing London on the last Saturday night before Xmas in the small hours - I'd have either left earlier, or booked a hotel in London if there was absolutely no alternative.

 

As it stands at the moment, the itinerary for the 2243 (Sat) from Bath Spa to East Croydon gives you an Underground cross-London transfer. That is reinforced with the use of the 'Maltese cross' (or dagger) printed alongside the ticket's routeing.

I'm not aware of any booking engine, or ticket office for that matter, that gives itineraries suggesting a taxi or night bus. These would not be included in the ticket price, and would necessitate split tickets. If that were so, then yes, transfer would be at one's own risk.

Extending the transfer time can be done when booking online. Having looked into that, the last itinerary from Bath Spa to East Croydon still suggests taking the Underground to Victoria to connect into the 0300.

The fact remains, through travel is offered, at no additional expense, and that is what should be honoured. If the inclusive cross-London transfer can't be supplied, then the tickets (including Advance Purchase) shouldn't be offered for sale. For the simple reason that the rail industry and its partner (in this case TfL) cannot fulfill the contract as advertised. What's even more perverse, is that by dint of that 'Maltese cross', TfL get a cut of the fare, despite not being in a position to offer anything in return for that cut.

While it remains advertised it should be honoured.

There are many many ways in which a passenger can breach the terms of their contract, often unknowingly*, and face sanction under Railway Byelaws and the Regulation of Railways Act. All to often, when the boot is on the other foot, train companies get away with contract breaches by passing the problem on, blaming third parties, or just plain not wanting to bother. This is a gross imbalance.

I fully understand the 'life advice'. Contingency planning should always be considered. However, once a contract is entered into, that contingency rests with both parties.



*Appreciating of course that ignorance, whilst allowed as mitigation, is not a defence, in and of itself.

So why, if I put in that journey on National Rail does it say:-

TRANSFER   00:45    London Paddington [PAD]      
London Victoria [VIC]
01:42       0h 57m   
    
During times when the London Underground Network is closed customers are advised to use either Taxis or the Night Bus Network to continue their journey.

National Rail Enquiries don't sell tickets. Booking engines do, and thus offer the contract.

And that doesn't change the fact that the ticket will have the 'Maltese cross', meaning TfL take a cut of the fare, despite not offering anything in return for that cut.

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/padvic_zpscbe888c5.jpg)

If the next service is under 60 minutes, then they would be expected to wait for it - The 1306 PAD-PLY has an 11minute connection with the 1527 EXD-BNP.  The next service is 1657, so passengers get taxied if the 1306 is approx 15-45 minutes late.  If the 1306 was 60 late, then they'll be waiting for the next service.

Occasionally if a serious delay has been experienced, and the next connection is approx 45 mins, then i've known a taxi provided, but it's not required, and anything less than that, by the time a taxi is arranged, traffic taken into account etc, it's not going to save much time.

BNM. I've tried to book on the FGW mixing deck, and it clearly comes up with "Please check operating hours for this service" in respect of the underground element, prior to making the booking. (I'm not sure how to get the image like you have, but I've cut and pasted below.) Not sure which engine you tried, but I think FGW have covered themselves.

Elsewhere on National Rail it confirms that you can't use your train ticket on buses (Night or otherwise), although this isn't drawn to your attention when making a booking. Though I'd argue that it doesn't have to be, as nowhere does the booking process lead you to believe that it might be.



Journey 1: Bath Spa to East Croydon
Outward journey4 Jan 2014      Return journey
Depart:
Bath Spa dep. 22:43
Change at:
London Paddington arr. 00:45 (5/1)
London Underground

Please check operating hours for this servicemore info
London Victoria dep. 02:00 (5/1)
Arrive:
East Croydon, 02:26 (5/1)
Changes: 2    Duration: 3h 43m
Passengers
1 Adult
Advance^16.50
Route: Via Slough
Valid on chosen train only. Non-refundable. Changeable for a fee before booked departure time.
terms and conditions

My image was from redspottedhanky.com.

I concur that FGW's version of the 'Mixing Deck' gives the additional, "Please check operating hours for this service", but many other booking engines don't, including different iterations of the 'Mixing Deck'.

What is most important, in my opinion, is what is printed on the ticket. That is the routeing, ^Any Permitted (for walk up tickets) or ^AP Slough (for Advance Purchase).

That dagger (or Maltese Cross) in the 'Route' field printed on the ticket means a cross-London transfer is included in the price. Why should someone travelling at 2243 be denied a cross-London transfer, at no additional cost, versus someone travelling at 1243 having paid exactly the same fare? TfL get their cut in both instances.

Tickets sold for the 2243 that include the dagger/Maltese cross, should be honoured. And if a passenger arrives at Paddington too late to make a connection using the Underground, then the rail industry should insure they get to their destination in a timely fashion and at no additional cost. If they can't then the ticket shouldn't be offered for sale. While it remains the case that such fares are offered then, contractually, I believe the onus is on the rail industry to get you to the destination printed on your ticket.

The maltese cross "entitles you to travel by tube between the two stations at no extra charge". However, it doesn't provide you with a guarantee that such a service is available.  Moreover, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage don't apply to London Underground. 

NRCoC refer you to the conditions of carriage of any other operator on which your ticket is valid, in this case TfL. TfL's CoC only talk about "you can use any of our services if you have a valid ticket". It doesn't cover the possibility that you might wish to use a ticket at a time when there are no services advertised.

Of course, this is all based on looking at Conditions of Carriage which hardly anyone ever does. However, I think most reasonable people would not turn up at a London terminus at 1am and expect  a tube to be there to take them to another station, just because they have a maltese cross on their ticket (which I believe is printed as standard on any ticket between two points that involves a cross London interchange). But I agree that those versions of the mixing deck which don't make this point clear could be improved - after all, FGW's version does, so there's obviously no technical issue.

Where a train is late arriving, and the last tubes have gone then there is at the very least a moral responsibility for the TOC to facilitate cross London travel. But in this case even if it had been on time there was no tube running, so no such responsibility existed.

 

I'd like to comment on an earlier posting here by John R:  I don't consider myself as being disabled, but I do have mobility issues, sometimes worse than others, and I have to agree with you, I think you need to consider allowing more time for a rail journey if there is the potential for hiccups.

Example:  In the spring I travelled by train from Melksham to Bristol, early evening, expecting to be able to change at Trowbridge.  The train I needed to catch there was already at the station when my train arrived.  My mobility was pretty awful at the time, and by the time I'd limped across the bridge and down towards the platform the train was just pulling away! 

Oh, goodness me, I politely exclaimed...... >:(

Fortunately a lovely young man with whom I'd struck up a conversation on leaving Melksham, had walked with me over the bridge (UNfortunately, causing him to miss the connection himself!) and had on him one of these posh phones with internet access, so was able to tell me we wouldn't have to wait long before another Bristol-bound train came along, so the story had a happy ending.  I mention the young man as kids tend to get such a bad press these days, and he was just so kind!  There are some lovely folk out there; unfortunately only the bad guys get the press coverage.

Anyway, had I studied the timetable in greater depth before leaving home I wouldn't have bothered trying to rush over the bridge

As a card-carrying disabled railcard holder myself, I have to say I agree with my learned friends here - it's invariably a great idea to build some contingency time into planned rail journeys (though to be honest, I often over-egg the pudding somewhat and have been known to turn up in time for the train before the one I intend to catch...)

It's worth mentioning too perhaps that there is to be an improvement to late night tube travel options across London:

http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2013/11/21/tube-trains-to-run-24-hours-at-weekends/

It's only going to be on Friday and Saturday nights; will only run on five lines (Central, Jubilee, Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria); and won't run the full length of these lines (only Ealing to Hainault on the Central, only the Charing Cross branch on the Northern line, and only the Heathrow branch on the Piccadilly line). The trains won't run as regularly as during the day either. But still.

Thanks for the replies everyone. An awful lot to reply too here so I'll quote and post as I need. If I forget anyone I'm sorry!


In all honesty, I knew I was going to generate that kind of answer. See in my post:
As well surprisingly I am in complete agreement. It was a silly thing to do, but when I booked the ticket. My reduced mobility at the time was the last thing on my mind! As the journey came up as a possibility and the times were right. I booked it. I wouldn't have gone on the Sunday and considering the events on Monday I got off lighter than I thought.

I also agree with the further comments Bignosemac and John R have made.

• I did enter into a contract and the TOC should have ensured I got there
• Staff should not have passed the problem onto Victoria where I could do nothing about it
• Controversially, I think a ticket to ECR should be sold for the last train, but made clear that it is either under your own peril or to provide a way in which to resolve a problem if it all goes wrong at the first Interchange station, in this case Paddington

I think contingency planning should be part of the journey process as well. I agree with Phil that I am also of the type who will turn up much before a train I actually intend to catch. That being said as BNM pointed out, there was a 21% more than the minimum time for a XLondon journey. So my contingency plan was there. There was also another service at 03:00 however there was little point in taking this as I wouldn't have woken in time to continue with my journey.

The main issue here which caught me out was the building works at Victoria Station, that had the signage been better, I would have made that 02:00 train. As it turned out I walked pretty much around in a circle and got to the station just a little bit too late. If my Sunday activities had been in Croydon I would have proceeded on the 03:00 Service.

Normally as most know, I do plan my journeys well (sometimes!) but there is always that one journey that will catch you out no matter how much planning and contingency you put into it... This was one of them. Also another reason why I don't "risk" Sunday travel down to London and Essex, far too much to go wrong! I admit I do risk some connections, others I hope for but know they aren't a "must connect" but more or less I plan well.


I also agree in general with Super Guards comments. At Bath Spa I've been offered a taxi when I've missed the 21:07. I normally decline however and wait for the 23:38 as I would prefer a train to a taxi any day of the week. Same happened a few months back at Shenfield when I was offered a Taxi to Romford to connect to another train. I knew that a London Bound InterCity service was going to call on special stop order within the next 90 minutes so declined and offered to wait for the Class 90. This even took the staff by complete surprise. Nevertheless they said if that gets silly delayed they'd come up to the coffee shop later and see if I had changed my mind.

Don't be so sure... ;D

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/14831_1174230071855_4413156_n.jpg)

(Coventry Station, Platform 1 near the First Class Lounge)

Two points from me, if I may?  ;)

Firstly, I have met 'thetrout', more than once - and a more polite, quietly-spoken and well-mannered young man one couldn't realistically hope to meet  ;);

Secondly, and despite the above, I have frequently been amazed at the various scrapes 'thetrout' apparently manages to get himself into, travelling on the railways.  :o

The only guidance I can offer, therefore, is to read here whatever travel plans 'thetrout' has made - and then plan yours quite differently. :P