Great Western Coffee Shop

Apologies if this is in the wrong place/ mentioned already.

The original plan was, when the new thameslink stock is introduced, the class 319's would be split between the North West, and the Thames Valley.
However I heard that the Thames Valley would get the class 387's instead. Is this true? what would happen to the class 377/5's?

There's nothing confirmed about what units we'll be getting in Thames Valley yet.

However, it seems likely the stock will be capable of at least 110mph, be ready for ETCS fitment and have SDO, as this is what has been repeated by Network Rail and the DfT. This would rule out the 319s.

Now if you do a bit of detective work, you'll note that the current class 387 order ticks the above boxes - plus there's an option to order further units increasing the fleet size to 54 (currently 29 units on order). The current FGW Turbo fleet is 57 units. Some of these will need to be retained for the North Downs line and the shuttles to Bedwyn, so there could be a modest net increase in fleet in the Thames Valley.

Other possibilities are a new order. Gossip is floating around that there will be a GW electric rolling stock announcement before the end of this year.

Siemens have recently unveiled the Desiro City Express - a 115mph EMU.
Bombardier have also announced a revamped Aventra - a 125mph EMU.
Hitachi will be looking to maximise work at their new production facility, I reckon we might see a 4-car class 395 derivative on offer.

If GW gets new rolling stock, as opposed to the 387s, I speculate that the 387s will remain in the TSGN franchise to enable a cascade to or allow the 313s to be retired from service and/or further strengthening of services.

It already seems possible that the Southern 313s will be moved to the Great Northern routes out of Moorgate once Thameslink is complete. The new Thameslink Desiro City trains will take over a lot of services in the Southern area, and will also release 377/2s and 377/5s from the Thameslink routes back to Southern routes, so there should already be a fair increase in stock in the TSGN franchise area.

Just throwing pebble in the pond to see where the ripples go. Whilst it's good that's lot's of shiny new EMUs in the offing a lot are going to be replacements for older EMUS and extra stock on already electrified lines thus until there are lot more miles of wire not many DMUs are being released.

I would sugegst that we really need a build of around 30 3 car 173s to alow strengthening of exisitng services and scrapping of the 14Xs and maybe 150s and 153s although they could be kept for strengthening.

just a thought when teh IEP comes in on the GWML what about HST's out of Marylebone replacing the 67s or maybe out of Padd via Royal Oak when Crossrail opens.

Porterbrook have released some documents to show the work that will be needed on a number of different classes of units which will be needed to allow them to operate beyond 2020 which includes the class 143 dmu's.

I have not see anything for the class 153's and there does seem to be concern's from the industry about the state of these units  you can see already on a few of the units a bit of body sag. If this problem can be fixed then the most likely scenario is that they will be converted back into 2 carriage class 155's.

If any pacers remain after 2020 then only examples I think will be the three carriage class 144's with the class 150's also being another pre privatisation unit to remain in service along with the class 156/158 dmu's.

As we get towards 2020 I think we will be seing a shake up of the dmu fleet especially with many classes being moved across the uk. In particular FGW could as we suspect get many class 165/166's with a small batch of class 150's kept for those routes which the turbo's cannto be accomodated.

The Wales & Borders franchise is looking like it will be getting the class 158's from FGW to operate services in west wales after SWML electrification is completed. The GWML will also require a fleet of emu's for services between Bath & Bristol to Cardiff & Swansea as well as for perhaps peak hour shuttles between Bristol Parkway and Bedminster.

I like the idea of the HST's running on Chiltern, although as they are investing in new locos (I've got that right, haven't I?), it may be a long shot. But there's possibly enough benefit in running at 125 to knock a few more minutes off and reduce the time differential with Virgin a bit more.

As to a new build of dmu's, the time it would take to build a new order is now within a year of a significant cascade of Thames Turbo stock, which should relieve the stock shortage. Around the same time NW electrification will be finished, as will Edinburgh Glasgow, so quite a lot of dmu stock will be coming available. By the end of the Control Period there is also likely to be a high end cascade as Meridians are replaced with electric stock (I'm betting on 91+Mk 4s.), along with Trans Pennine, and Valley Lines. All in, that should enable most if not all Pacers to be retired as well as give enough additional stock for enhancements.

Mod Note: edited to fix quotes - bobm

It must also be remembered that the Secretary of State for Transport (whoever that might be later this decade*) will have the power, by derogation, to allow rolling stock that isn't compliant with the Equality Act (2010) section 183 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/part/12/chapter/3) or RVAR (2010) (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.2470) to continue in service beyond 2020.

Should there be a shortage of compliant rolling stock at that time, it is highly unlikely that non-compliant rolling stock would be withdrawn. The derogation powers would, I believe, have to be used.


* Six years until 2020. That'll probably be another four or five Transport Ministers...  :-\

I have to state that I agree with you Bignosemac I suspect the class 143 fleet at least will remain in service for a year or two after 2020 just to allow the other dmu fleets such as the class 150/158's to have the necessary work done on them.

I do wonder if however if a new fleet of emu's is purchased for the Thames Valley region whether or not a msall number of additional units could be tagged on to work some electric services around Bristol. If the East-West line is re-opened fully to Cambridge then a Bristol -Oxford - Bedford - Cambridge service would be quite popular especially by those wishing to traveling across London to reach the Anglia region.

There are some threads on other forums where someone has worked out all the potential cascades and it is quite possible for pacers and 153s to be withdrawn just with currently announced projects. Cardiff Valley Lines electrification will release all of the ATW pacer fleet and 150s to displace elsewhere too. Thames Valley electrification frees up the Turbos to get rid of FGW pacers of possibly displace units elsewhere too. The full Lancashire Triangle electrification will free up quite a lot of Northern DMUs to help eliminate pacers. There's also much electrification happening in Scotland which should allow some DMUs to be moved South, although it's not clear of what type yet. I'm no fan of 150s but I think they've got a while left yet. If CP6 comes along and we get more electrification announced any new fleet of DMUs is going to have looked like a bad idea. Simply we should enough in service now to keep us going for a while, until its clear what the long term requirement is for DMUs. Remember it has been said that no ROSCO will fund a new order of DMUs currently, so any new order will have to involve government backing.

Edit:Forgot to mention Trans Pennine electrification. That should free up quite a large amount of modern Class 185 fleet for use elsewhere.

You raise, indirectly, an interesting point. Everybody is going to want the shiny new units, and not the 25 year old hand me down Class 319s. For the Bristol area, I would think a few 4 coach 319s would be a more than adequate replacement for the current stock. Likewise for North West electrification. But I can't see TransPennine customers enjoying stock that's 20 years old than they currently have, unless the full blown refurb that has been touted is carried out. Nor Transport Scotland using them for the key Glasgow -Edinburgh route.

So some hard decisions will have to be made, as it's not cost effective to scrap them. As well as the political aspect (as discussed above), I suspect operational issues will be taken into account. So new units for the Thames Valley where the higher speed and acceleration will enable a more optimal integration with IEP services. I do wonder whether using 319s on the branches and Basingstoke services would be more cost effective, even with the dual maintenance overhead. Else there's a lot of capital cost tootling back and fore to Windsor, Marlow and Henley.

I guess it will all depend on whether the 319s can be put to use somewhere other than the Thames Valley branches. A single fleet would be preferable, but scrapping 319s at what is probably only just over half their viable life makes no sense either. The MK3 Suburban unit provides a good solid base, and the interiors can be upgraded to provide a much more modern feel. SWT Class 455s for example don't feel anything like the 30 years old they are. I'm not sure what the unit requirement would be for the whole North West triangle scheme so I don't know how many 319s we're talking about being available. One potential destination could be the Cardiff Valley lines. 315s displaced by Crossrail have been mooted but the 319s would be a better option being about 7 years younger and being built to the newer MK3 rather than PEP design.

I agree, 319s are probablly ok as Pacer/150 replacments in the Bristol area and the north-west. However, I would hope that TPE gets proper regional express stock this time arround (an electric 3/4-car version of a 158). Sadly, there isn't much such stock arround (only the 444s and 5-WESes), so a new build is required.

I agree with that, although it now looks like ValleyLines electrification has slipped to CP6 which makes it too late to help in getting rid of Pacers sadly.

And therein lies the problem. We'll have lots of suburban stock kicking arround (185s, 165s, 166s, 150s and perhaps some ex-Scotrail/TPE 170s) but still very little in the way of rolling stock suitable for long-distance rural services (especially if the 153s have to be scrapped rather than converted back into 155s) or regional express services. I fear the Cardiff-Portsmouth service becoming 166s/165s instead of propper regional express stock. If we build any more DMUs in my opinion they should be 158s (or, prefrably, a bi-mode version, which could have an otherwise identical electric-only version for TPE).

The suggetsion of using class 319's which have been overhauled/refurbished on the Cardiff Valley Lines Network would be a better idea since they look to be in better condition than the class 315's as well as being younger. I wonder if Porterbrook have realised this and have suggested the idea to the WG/DFT especially if the GW gets new emu's

That rebuilt/refurbished class 317 & 321 can show us what we can do to an older emu to keep it in service.The class 319's would need some work done to them to improve their acceleration perhaps additional traction motors if they are to  work on the Valley Lines.

Modern Railways recently did an article on teh Cardiff Valley lines which looked at how the class 315 & 319's would compare to tram-trains on the Rhymney - Penarth route and you can see the difference.

I can't see Chiltern taking HSTs frankly - too expensive to maintain & they don't like short hops between stations

From my memory of Manchester Metrolink, trams mean an unacceptably small number of seats. Nobody should be forced to stand for more than arround 5 minutes outside commuting hours in my opinion. Other than that, the ROSCO man in Modern Railways made a strong case for trams/tram-trains on the core ValleyLines.

They did state in modern Railways that up to 4 tram-train vehicles could be coupled up on peak time services to provide extra capacity. Some units can be worked by single units rather than pairs where you may have only enough passengers to fill one unit.

Of course there has been talk over the last few weeks about the Valley lines being given a allocation of refurbished class 319's rather than older class 315's so that these units can remain in service longer. Of course this would depand on whether or not the GW gets brand new emu's as is supected.

Of course any class 319's sent to south wales would need some refurbishment and improvements to their traction packages to improve acceleration.

If the Manchester trams don't have enough seats it's because they are not long enough or not frequent enough. Many cities in central Europe have five or six section long trams with no apparent shortage of seats off-peak. Except when the schools finish^!

Porterbrook have of course suggested future uses for the 319 fleet. Because I am nice, here is a link to their class 319 brochure :) http://www.porterbrook.com/downloads/brochures/319%20Brochure.pdf

Potential ideas include re-gearing for 75mph use, as well a reforming to three car sets.

Those in the south of England may remember that Connex South Central refurbished 7 (I think) class 319s for the "Brighton Express". These had their interiors refurbished to include better 1st class seating, 2+2 Chapman seating in standard as well as the fitment of a bar/trolley area and snug seating. Unfortunately in the name of increased seating, First Capital Connect returned these units to their original interior layout a few years ago. But it shows what can be done.

I know this is a view, which many will disagree with, but I feel the HSTs days are numbered. We'll see them on heritage lines, charters and maybe some WAG or Scottish vanity project, but that's it. It's time to give the HSTs a dignified retirement. Miles per casualty for HSTs aren't the greatest, and they'll require a lot of work to keep them in service beyond 2020. Operationally, HSTs are also time consuming to prepare for service and mobilise compared to modern stock and fault finding when things do go wrong isn't as straight forward as it is on more modern stock. Don't get me wrong, the HSTs have given good service, but in this crowded railway you have to draw a line somewhere, and I don't think secondary or tertiary routes would help their future.

Even in Los Angeles (city of the car?) the blue line tram, with a section of street running, was 3 x articulated units - equivalent of a 6 car train - when I was on it the other week; plenty of space unlike the green line which was running with one packed articulated set.   Some of the Manchester trams already run up to 2 x articulated units (4 equivalent), but listening to the locals talk those aren't always on the busiest diagrams.  There are frequency limits in places too, such as the Rochdale line with its single line section past Newton Heath depot.  Add too much to the frequency and you'll get service robustness issues I suspect!

The 319/2s still retain the new interior, albeit with the snug area replaced with standard 3+2 seating. It was never going to be used for its intended purpose on FCC so it made sense to install a standard seating layout there. Unfortunately the 319/2s are starting to show the age of their refurbishments now. The refurbishment they received under FCC was not as comprehensive as that which the 319/3s and 319/4s received so they do feel a little bit run down. The flooring in particular is in need of a replacement. It's definitely a good base for any future refurbishment project though, although I'd hope the next refurbishment is more comprehesive to give the units a much newer feel. The 317 demonstrator which has just been unveiled shows what can be done to completely update the interior.

The wires are being stretched a tad further West than Newbury to remove the need for the shuttle .......... so the jungle drums are saying

Do we know how much of a tad that is likely to be?

Initially, I suspect, it would be to Bedwyn.

Extending to Bedwyn could of course have further Rolling Stock implications. If you don't extend the reversing siding at Bedwyn you'd then need 3-car EMUs to run the Bedwyn trains. Now I guess 3-car EMUs are entirely possible for the Thames Valley branches, but I'm not sure that you'd want 3-car EMUs working the current London-Bedwyn fast services in the long term.

I don't disagree at all, but I think the number may be a larger one than many think. Until the line to Penzance is electrified, they will remain a useful alternative to the relatively few IEP hybrids that will be available, and I think they will still be running commercial services in 2030. Not all of them, of course, which could mean quite a few spares and less rush to service them.

The HST's demise will be brought about by the adoption of in-cab signalling systems, ETCS / ETRMS etc, by the cost of retro fitting the equipment into 30 to 40 year old power cars, the plan being adopted on the ECML is for no line side signal so I am not sure how the open access Grand Central will deal with this.  The GW are not removing line side signals ..... yet

The Western Route Summary Route Plan says:


It also says this:

Exactly .......... this will put the nail in the coffin of class 43's (aka 253 & 254) so the demise of the HST's will be in just over 10 years which will make them 50 years old which all said and done is a life cycle for railway rolling stock far longer than any other public transport vehicle

I stand corrected (again).

I am not convinced that all these dates will be kept, certainly for the outer reaches of the GW network. Network Rail's 'Strategic Business Plan' (which is its response to the Government's HLOS) is a work in progress and its final version will be published in March 2014. Even in the current version (from which the above quotes were taken) there are some inconsistencies and assumptions which are made. One of these is on page 58 of the Western Route Plan referring to ETCS


As I understand it, this programme is running late and these comparative studies have not yet been completed so the appointment of a main contractor, planned for January 2014, looks unlikely. This has to increase the risk that the first implementation of ETCS on the Western (for Crossrail to Heathrow) in December 2016 (in the text and diagram on page 58) will be delayed.

Another statement which I don't entirely understand is on page 74


This implies, at least to me, that all HSTs and Class 180s will be withdrawn by that date - or at least will not be able to operate via Bristol. This seems odd as (a) not enough IEPs/Super Express Trains have been ordered to operate the service to Plymouth and Penzance and (b) AIUI there are questions as to whether the bi-mode versions can cope with the Devon banks on a regular basis.

Whilst I agree that the end-of-life of the HSTs cannot be put off for ever, it would be a brave man who did not hedge his bets that all the planned improvements and changes will happen as planned now. I would think that at least a 'strategic reserve' of overhauled and updated HSTs will still be running in 12 to 15 years time - and their leasing costs are much lower than those of the IEP will be^!

Edited to try to get the quoting correct...

One of the key drivers that make ETCS / ETMS viable is to coincide re-signalling with new trains, the Southern routes (Wessex Sussex Kent) are likely the last routes to be done due to the age of the rolling stock.  Give it 10 years when the HST's are 50 the signalling in the Exeter, Plymouth and Cornwall will be due (even over due) for renewal

Grand Central have recently stated a desire to move to an all 180 fleet. Retrofitting ETCS to 180s will presumably be more economically viable.

Are there any 180s available? I hope they do not want our Cotswold Line 180s as despite the unreliability reputation, they are the most suitable and comfortable trains on our line.

I think we're talking post electrification, aren't we? Bi-modes will be on the North Cotswolds by then.

Presumably something can be done about the prehistoric signalling around Worcester.

Grand Central plan to lease the 4 class 180s used by Hull Trains to retire their HSTs. Hull Trains have proposed paying for electrification from Hull to the ECML to the tune of ^90m if they get their new 10 year track access agreement. This will require a fleet of electric trains, enabling the release of their class 180 fleet.

The details in the Draft CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan are a bit more specific:
1. The current baseline for passenger trains includes classes 43 and 91 (p25).
2. Below a list of the phases work for ETCS on the ECML, is this note:
   "DfT has requested Network Rail to identify the impact of deferring the commissioning
of King^s Cross to South Peterborough to February 2020 or the provision of an overlay in
December 2018 to facilitate an efficient train fitment programme (i.e remove the need to
retrofit Class 43 & Class 92 [sic] sets). Network Rail and DfT are continuing to review the
options."
(I presume that ought to say "Class 43 & Class 91".)

I hope not! It's one of the only reasons to visit Worcester !!!

I add my welcome to those on the other thread, gogogoadam, and admit to sharing your clear fondness for antique signalling. I doubt it can survive the next step of the march of progress, even if it side-stepped the previous dozen.

There are many other things to do in Worcester by way of both amusement and self-education. For a start, there's, er, there's...

I can't quite put my finger on anything just now.

Cafe Loco!

There's the Worcester City Art Gallery & Museum, just up the road from Foregate St station, where you can learn some of the history of the city's vinegar and sauce factories. These industries grew from humble beginnings in various Chemist shops in Worcester. The museum has a recreation of a 19th century Chemist's.

Well, it provided an interesting diversion for me on a wet Wednesday when I was waiting for the bi-hourly service to Bristol.

There's always a bottle of Lea & Perrins^ in my cupboard. Currently got a bottle of the Special Edition. I can normally find an excuse to incorporate it into any meal. And even the odd drink.

What is there to do in Worcester? Well...

There's the Cathedral, with its superb choral tradition and splendid new organ.

There's some truly excellent pubs: the Plough, the Cardinal's Hat, the King Charles II, the Dragon, and many more. I'd venture to say that, in Great Western territory, perhaps only Bristol can beat it.

There's the mighty River Severn and the little canal, very pleasant for idly gongoozling, or for a walk along the Severn Way on a summer's afternoon. And there's a bunch of very pleasant cycle routes, not least via the new Diglis Bridge, for relaxed exploring.

Worcester's a lovely city: we like it so much we chose to moor our narrowboat there when we moved it down from the Midlands, rather than the closer options of the Thames or the Oxford Canal. But one of the joys of it is that it isn't overrun with tourists. So don't tell anyone. ;)

I agree with Stebbo , the signalling in and around Worcester is prehistoric . If one likes this type of signalling so much , why not pay a visit to one of the heritage railways in the area e.g. the SVR or GWR , the sooner the Worcester signalling is updated the better! I was once asked if Shrub Hill station was part of the Severn Valley Railway by a American visitor !  As for things to do in Worcester, I agree with Richard Fairhurst , many people like to visit this lovely city for the cricket or the races, or of course there are the lovely riverside walks , south quay with its water feature is very popular, and there is always the beautiful Cathedral !! And the city centre shops are as good as in many bigger cities.

"Gongoozling" (my emphasis) - a word I had never known prior to reading "Narrow Dog to Carcassonne" by Terry Darlington, recommended for anyone who ever wondered what it was like to sail a canal boat across the English Channel then down through the French inland waterways. It comes recommended.

And now you've all mentioned it, I remember what a treasure trove Worcester is from an amusement point of view. Had it been less so, I would have drunk less, and remembered more. It is also useful to the pilot of the light aircraft. With the classic combination of railway lines, canal, river, and motorway, even I couldn't mistake it for Ross on Wye.