Great Western Coffee Shop

At Chippenham Station last night ... a notice saying that GroupSave isn't available to Bath and listing the Saturdays in December.   Enquiry of ticket office elicited the information that it's only to Bath that the limit applies.

Where do I find this information / timing details / other information online - do I just have to try each journey I'm interested in making and see what the booking engine says?

The FGW site at

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Train-times-and-tickets/Ticket-types/Leisure-tickets

refers me to

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/48462.aspx

Which only contains dates up to the end of November - not good for planning preChristmas trips / publicity for such trips.

Be interesting to know why just Bath presumably it's to discourage hoards of Christmas shoppers forming parties of 4. Or is it just that First wanting more revenue?

It could be because of Rugby, and it could just be certain times of day. And does it apply purely Chippenham to Bath, or Chippenham via Bath?

Is one entitled to buy Groupsave to Oldfield Park and break my journey at Bath Spa?

I would assume it would be the Christmas Markets.

Contraversially I understand why FGW have done this... The trains used by the Christmas Market Shoppers creates the anomaly of too many people for the number of trains available.

First Class often gets declassified on Paddington Trains up to at least Swindon. (My experience)

Of course the restriction might not cover Oldfield Park and there is nothing to stop you using PlusBus from there. And some trains a change at Bath Spa for Oldfield Park is necessary anyway. The barriers would also allow you to break the journey and would give you the ticket back which of course you'll keep for returning to continue to Oldfield Park later if you were to break the journey... :D

Also the Christmas Market will run on the same day as some Home Rugby Matches... Bad news!

Last night when I was at Bath Spa they were hanging signage to guide people home from the Bath Christmas market.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/bathspa.jpg)

The positioning seems a little odd, unless there are going to be special stopping places. as the signs seem to be sending people beyond the 3/4 car stopping point for the services which are normally 2 or 3 car....

Incidentally how many people does it take to hang a sign?  Answer - one man up a ladder, a "ribena girl" to pass the scissors and cable ties to him, two platform staff and a "suit" to watch.  ;D

They did something similar at Bath platform 2 last year. The trains towards Westbury stopped further along the platform than usual - I think it was to avoid crowding on the platform near the top of the stairs.

Where high demand exists (usually sport, but Xmas markets count too), why would a commercial organisation want to give a discount (that is used to fill seats)?....seems barmy to me, when demand for seats is already probably beyond the seating available....

That'll be why there are blackout dates. Because there is no need for a discount to fill seats.

There is a list of forward dates (around two months in advance usually) - the Customer Panel have seen them. If you have a date in mind, a quick email to Customer services will probably advise whether they will be available on given dates

The 'definitive source' for rail information (including tickets) - National Rail Enquiries - makes no mention of barred dates in December.

Unless and until it does, none can be enforced IMHO.

Telling the Customer Panel isn't enough. Requesting passengers contact the operator for what is, essentially, a contract term for GroupSave tickets isn't enough.

The correct information should be available at the time of enquiry. All I know is that there's a supposed bar for Bath Spa in December. No dates, no times.

Why not ChrisB, as you appear to have the information, actually reply to the OP's query rather than give them the additional hoop to jump through of contacting FGW Customer Services to find specific details of dates, times and stations. Is Oldfield Park and then a bus into Bath OK for example. Are GroupSave trips to locations via a change at Bath also barred? If it's this week they wish to travel they may not get a reply soon enough from CS.

A polite request would have been appreciated, Sir!

As it happens, I don't have the required info. I have seen these info sheets in the past, so I now that they're prepared.

I also disagree with what you write. Groupsave is NOT a legally required offer, and can therefore be offered exactly when any TOC wishes to offer it. Or not, as they wish. So no 'rules' exist, and can presumably be imposed or not as they wish - just as if you walk into Tescos & see an offer one day. It only exists while it is specifically advertised. The wording in the Groupsave offerstates it can operate on selected dates.

I agree with the TOC in this instance - if you want to check availability, all you need do is to email and ask. But don't go looking more than 2 months in advance.

GroupSave is an advertised offer.

What is missing are the terms and conditions of the offer.

You've used a supermarket analogy. So I'll do likewise for the current situation with GroupSave, even though its a poor comparison. Supermarkets don't have and enforce their own primary legislation. "You can have four apples for the price of two but there are certain times and dates when you can't. We're not telling you when you can't have this offer. You'll have to email our head office to find out."

That's essentially what FGW and NRE are doing at the moment, with no list of barred dates/times beyond November 2013. Reasonable to assume then that the offer is currently unrestricted?

You may well say, that booking engines and journey planners are applying these hidden dates/times, but that's not good enough if they don't explain why. Anyone making a special offer still has legal responsibility to make the terms of the offer clear. They can't, as you say, 'do what they want'. If selected dates/times are barred these need to be communicated clearly. Particularly when someone falling foul of a hidden term could end up with a criminal record, say, after buying at a station or onboard. I have little faith that every clerk, Guard or ATE (some of whom may well be working for different TOCs) will be told, or remember, all the barred dates/times/locations.

Only the rail industry, and its apologists, seem to think it is okay to keep the terms of a special offer hidden from plain sight.

Looks like I'll email and ask then. Experience tells me I'll have the answer for this Saturday's restrictions sometime next week.  ::)

I had a dig in the archive for 2012, sorry about any formatting issues from the cut & paste. "Minus 1" from the dates to have a guess for 2013's one e.g. Saturday 1 December 2012 -> Saturday 30 November 2013.
Taken from: http://web.archive.org/web/20121016033205/http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/groupsave_calendar.html

*** 2012 ***
Saturday 1 December    First Great Western    All services to Bath Spa before 14:00    Bath Chritmas Market
Saturday 1 December    First Great Western    Services to Newbury or Newbury Racecourse before 13:40    Horse Racing
Saturday 1 December    First Great Western    All services to Cardiff Central before 14:00    Rugby
Friday  7 December    First Great Western    Not valid on 14:06, 15:06, 16:06, 17:03, 18:03, 19:03 London Paddington - Penzance.    

Overcrowding
Saturday 8 December    First Great Western    All services to Bath Spa before 14:00    Bath Chritmas Market
Friday  14 December    First Great Western    Not valid on 14:06, 15:06, 16:06, 17:03, 18:03, 19:03 London Paddington - Penzance.    

Overcrowding
Saturday 15 December    First Great Western    All services to Bath Spa before 14:00    Bath Chritmas Market
Friday  21 December    First Great Western    Not valid on 14:06, 15:06, 16:06, 17:03, 18:03, 19:03 London Paddington - Penzance.    

Overcrowding
Saturday 22 December    
First Great Western
   All services to Bath Spa before 14:00    Bath Chritmas Market
Friday  28 December    First Great Western    Not valid on 14:06, 15:06, 16:06, 17:03, 18:03, 19:03 London Paddington - Penzance.    

Why do you suggest 2 months if I may ask?? The journey planner allows booking 3 months in advance, so I am sorry but I disagree with you in suggesting that you shouldn't get more than 2 months. That allows you to book tickets and enter into a contract for a period that the restrictions may not even be known or set! :o

I would have thought it would be a "hypothetically unfair contract" to purchase a Groupsave 4 in December for travel late February/Early March from Brighton - Salisbury. Then in January have the restrictions announced that GroupSave tickets are barred to Salisbury on the day you've booked. The TOC would then argue that as they have changed the terms and conditions with "reasonable notice" that you are entitled to a full refund without penalty or admin charges. But the tickets are now not valid as we have made you aware in plenty of time and the onus is on the contractee to claim a refund. So technically it could be argued that the TOC entered into a contract where it could not deliver the agreed service without potentially changing the agreement. Very dubious business practice when the contractee will find their ticket prices have potentially more than doubled!! ::) >:(

That in my eyes is a blatant breach of contract (Yes I'm being intentionally heavy-handed there) as the TOC is allowing you to enter into a contract for which it cannot provide the full terms and conditions of the contract at the time the parties enter into the agreement. If they then change the conditions I would expect to have the tickets honored for changing the terms of contract post contract commitment. I would not accept a refund because I kept my end of the bargin and I reckon that would be an interesting court case if the TOC refused travel/issued an MG11!

So to summerise. Restrictions should be published for the same period of time as bookings are taken for... No exceptions. Any amendments to restrictions should honor tickets already purchased prior to the restrictions being announced if necessary.

GroupSave is indeed a marketing offer, which the Train Operating Company can run with, indeed, it's own set of rules as to when it's valid and when it's not.  And from a marketing standpoint, it makes complete logical sense for them not to offer it when trains are going to be rammed even without it.   I don't think anyone doubts that - but those rules need to be clear, and published well in advance.

Over coming weeks and months, we want to encourage people to use the TransWilts train services.   Get people who have never used trains in the recent past, tell them about something specific they can go and see (the sales in Oxford Street from 27th December, pehaps) and encourage them to take the step of spending money on train fares with a Groupsave offer.  But there's a problem in that at the CRP we need to know, months in advance, precise rules on GroupSave cutoffs. And that's why its so disappointing there's no website telling us where the restrictions are coming up. We can't practically try out all the fares on all the trains on all the days we suggest, nor can we take a risk in suggesting GroupSave to find that 4 adults and 2 children get o the train expecting to pay a total of 99 pounds and end up paying 242.50

If it's a marketing offer, the offer should to be clearly specified in good time, and not have late / fine print that leaves a sour taste in the customer's mouth.  Sweet tastes fade quickly, sour tastes take a long time go go away.

Checking on National Rail, it does adjust for GroupSave blackouts. As an example, if you try Chippenham to Bath on Friday, it's ^10 for 4 people, rising to ^20 on Saturday.

So I don't think it's entirely fair to say that there is no way of finding out. Indeed, I'd suggest most people are likely to check the price by putting in their journey details, rather than checking a fairly obscure page of National Rail or FGW's websites. In the Chippenham case, if a notice has been placed at the station recently advising of the restriction then that is also warning passengers who may travel regularly to Bath on a Saturday that in December it may cost them more.

Of course, as Trout says, if you've already booked your ticket, and got the discount, then contractually you should be allowed to travel.

I've just had a play around grahame, The National Rail Enquiries Page you quoted in your first post still does not show the December Restrictions! It shows the September, October and November 2013 ones though. Which is of absolutely no help whatsoever.

I have not managed to get FGW's WebTIS to offer me GroupSave 3 on any trains from Frome (FRO) - Bath Spa (BTH) arriving before 14:00 on Saturday 14th December. I crosschecked this with thetrainline.com and EastCoast. Both gave the same result.

Oldfield Park (OLF) was a different story. FGW WebTIS and thetrainline.com offered GroupSave 3 to Oldfield Park on Saturday 14th December.

The ticket prices in the case of FRO - BTH are exactly the same as FRO - OLF however we know not how this will be taken with a break of journey. I'm sure an RPI could see what you were up to, but if the ticket purchased allowed Break of Journey I wonder what could be done about it. Yes it's very much gaming the system and I know that. But in terms of validity... Well I can't decide really.

There is still the option of using PlusBus from OLF into Bath City Centre. You could walk it as well but that would take at least a good 30 minutes.

However here is a useful cheat and one which I believe is perfectly "moral"

Frome - Oldfield Park Off Peak Day Return (CDR):
GroupSave 4 Price: ^19.80
GroupSave 3 Price: ^19.65
4x CDR Price: ^9.90 each x 4 = ^39.60

Oldfield Park - Bath Spa:
4x CDR: ^2.50 each x 4 = ^10.00
3x CDR: ^2.50 each x 3 = ^7.50

Total Frome - Oldfield Park - Bath Spa:
4x Passengers using the Oldfield Park Detour: ^29.80
3x Passengers using the Oldfield Park Detour: ^27.15

Oldfield Park Detour Saving based on:

4x Passengers = ^9.80
3x Passengers = ^2.55

So for 4 Passengers between Frome and Bath Spa on Bath Christmas Market with a scenic detour via Oldfield Park a considerable saving.

Trains from Frome - Oldfield Park normally call there, but if you end up on one of the few where you change at Westbury at Change is necessary at Bath Spa in some cases. Normally it's a later train from Westbury but there are a very few odd balls out there naturally!

If you can link into the SWT morning services from Westbury (0709, 1121) to Bath then you can use those trains legitimately. Not barred by booking engines...  ::)

FGW only protecting from potential overcrowding on their own services it seems.

Of course, I didn't really email FGW to ask for the list of dates/times. email is so last year!

A public complaint via Facebook gets a much a swifter response. Not a perfect one mind... but attached is a list of barred dates/times/destinations up to 25th January 2014. 

I note that the long-standing Friday afternoon bars from Paddington to the West on the 14:06, 15:06, 16:06, 17:03, 18:03, 19:03 aren't listed. Presumably then, GroupSave is now permitted on these services.

I would not try it, as it is clear that you are trying to avoid paying the correct fare for the journey. Even if it was decided that it could not be challenged, if the railway had evidence that it was being abused, it could have consequences for the whole of the GroupSave scheme. A similar example of this is where some TOCs felt that people were using the All Line Rover for purposes other than travelling around the country for a week. Now in that case, there was no question that what people were doing was perfectly legitimate (using it, as an example, for two peak returns from Manchester to London). But the consequence was that restrictions have been slapped on it, to avoid such usage, to the detriment of genuine users of the Rover.

Just had confirmation on Facebook that the bar on Friday afternoon services from Paddington to the West has been lifted.

Somehow I think Arran at FGW Facebook may be wrong on that one. Booking engines still bar them.

You would be allowed to travel - as the offer WAS obviously in place at the time you bought your ticket.

It is for the TOC to ensure online or ticket office staff are aware of any black-out dates & prevent the sale. If you achieve the discount, there is no way that they can subsequently be dishonoured. THat is the law of the land wherever you buy this sort of offer in whatever merchandise area....

So go ahead & book. If you can find the offer on the dates you want, it's yours.

But if they subsequently apply the offer after you buy non-discount, that is your lookout.

Despite NOT being on the list given to me by FGW, and having one FGW Facebook employee telling me GroupSave WAS permitted, Friday afternoon services to the West ARE barred from use of GroupSave.

Not a clue. Only in the rail industry would their be so much disinformation, or lack of information regarding the terms of a special offer.  ::) ::) ::)

At least NRE have been spurred into action. GroupSave barred dated for the next three months have now gone online. Like the trains, better late than never.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/48462.aspx

But, what's this? GroupSave is barred to Bath before 1400 on Saturday 21st December. Reason? Bath Christmas Market. Which finishes on 15th December 2013.

Not a clue.

Doing FGW's job for them without thanks.

It's because of Rugby in Bath on 21st December, not Christmas Market.  ::)

Still can't understand why the Christmas market closes 10 days before Christmas. 

Because they'll want to clear the shelves and start stocking Easter eggs, probably.  ::)

Retailers.

Set up a garden shed in the street or a car park. Stick a bit on tinsel on it and some coloured lights. Then sell festive goods at three times the price they can be had for online.

Call it a Christmas Market.

Cynical? Moi?  :-X

One could always wait until the last day and grab the gear as they desperately flog it off at a fraction of the originally marked price...

Had a quick look around after the Colin Maggs lecture http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=13201.msg143054#msg143054 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=13201.msg143054#msg143054) and there were some nice things to be had.

Inevitably one of my favourites was the cheddar cheese stall. Some very nice varieties which are unlikely to last in my fridge until Christmas. None of those foreign ones or those with mould in!   ;D

Also picked up a few ideas for Christmas pressies which I might buy next week.

Oh and just for bignosemac the sheds have arrived in Swindon for their Christmas market which starts on Thursday (5th). Somehow I doubt they'll need to ban Groupsave for that!

Yep that about sums it up, yet people flock to Bath from all over the country to view these products in a garden shed and it gets bigger every year stretching Bath's transport infustructure beyond the limit. I think most people in Bath will be glad to see the back of it and see the city return to something near normality for this time of year. Still a nice little earner for the council.

Noticed the list of barred dates on National Rail enquiries now runs to the end of March.  Every one is introduced by FGW.  Does no other TOC, which takes Groupsave, bar dates?

Pedant's question.   Groupsave Bars are shown on afternoon Paddington to Penzance trains on Fridays.  During the period that those trains are replaced by Paddington to Exeter trains, are the replacement trains similarly barred?

Just tried booking four people on them to Exeter via the FGW website and it is not offering them for the trains usually barred to Penzance.