Great Western Coffee Shop

With now-likely additional services on the TransWilts line from December, we're moving the Community Rail Partnership into a more active informing and supporting role to tell our various communities about the opportunities that are about to be unleashed.   Printing out old v new timetables (as I've been doing) starts to bring home the enormity of the trains that we're looking to fill!

Wiltshire is arranged into a series of "Area Boards" - councillors for particular towns who meet every couple of months, get community updates, approve local grants, etc ... and we (TransWilts CRP) have just written around to them to solicit invites to their next meetings for a brief update.  It's up to them, of course, whether they respond with an invite, decline to invite us, or simply don't get back to us but for those who are receptive it's a great opportunity for us to fill them in and ask questions.

We're also looking to work with station groups along the way.   In Swindon, Chippenham, Trowbridge and Westbury, TransWilts trains will for a minority of the services and we're hopeful that other or wide station groups will come forward to work with us, or we can form something that's rather wider than purely a "TransWilts interest" one.   I'm aware of cyclist by train groups, groups particularly concerned with wheelchair access to difficult platforms, etc ... we're happy for them to expand, or to work with us in ensuring that TransWilts works.  In the case of Melksham, we're already working closely with the Melksham Railway Development Group - and that's stepped up to the role for that station.

IF YOU REPRESENT A GROUP AT ANY OF THE STATIONS - please let me know (email - graham@wellho.net; personal message or reply here).   By the end of this month (September) and yu can help us set up the meeting too ;-) ....


Update - Station groups / some date changes

And a first draft of electronic information to do that informing ...

http://atrebatia.info/aboutcrp.pdf

Excellent leaflet. Hopefully closer to the time, proper timetables will be available, perhaps a leaflet showing the timetable just for the Transwilts line might be a good idea with times in brackets showing connecting destinations such as London Paddington.

Can I suggest 'Through tickets available to any UK station' alongside the line diagram?

Paul

There's just been a whole thread about that very issue, that you mustn't have noticed:  http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12909.0

Paul

Changing "Other" into "to any".  Good call - if we're certain of "any"??  

I have found one exception - MKM to NVM, but then NVM is a special case we can safely ignore. I can buy a Melksham to Norton Bridge!

More complete timetables, Anthony215?   Absolutely, but at this stage / with this leaflet the objective is to have something to inform the people who will be primarily informers - to market the concept.   On one hand there's a need to help people plan ahead (look at the criticism that First Bus have been getting for short notice), but that's got to be balance against publicising specifics in leaflets to be distributed far and wide so early that people go off the boil, and before we're even certain - look at the "non-news" on the franchise as a whole.

And I've been having another play today ...

I think that\s looking a lot clearer.  One tiny suggestion - intuitively I think the Temple Meads and Airport rows ought to be swapped, because you get to change at TM on the way to the airport.

Good point, John R.  :)

I read that thread I should have said in my previous post perhaps the timetable as part of a larger leaflet which also lists some attractions along the route. a bit like the leaflets which you can pick up for the heart of wales line.

Perhaps as well these leaflets can be giving to anyone currently using the existing service and anyone visiting the area and staying at hotels for example

In what I did so far, I relied on the very happy co-incidence that the order for the closer connectional places was almost alphabetic ... it is probably sensible to provide some sort of geographic rather than alphabetic ordering.   Once you get beyond "Cheltenham" in the alphabet, the need to con sider order becomes clearer - I'm attaching inbound and outbound sections to show what I mean ...

A couple more points (if I may):-

Some of the routings look a bit odd. For example Weymouth seems to show options to join the TW from both ends.  I'm guessing that the version via Swindon involves going via Basingstoke and Reading, which would probably cost a lot more than the obvious direct route (and thus cause significant passenger dissatisfaction.)  Also, suggest departures involving an overnighter are removed, (if left in you need to allow for Mondays being different.)

I guess this shows that a lot more thought than most people might imagine needs to go into something as relatively simple* as how the timetable is presented.

* compared with the process of actually developing a timetable that has sensible paths, connections and staff to run it.

I am delighted for you to do so  ;D


The times shown are all from the journey planner, and I'll probably filter out journeys that take (say) more than 2 hours / 30% longer than the fastest journey on a route; that will eliminate all overnight journeys.  May also switch to grey rather than black for slower (and probably more expensive) journeys; more research needed!


I have a lot of time for the professionals who do this - they have many years of valuable experience they can apply, and hearts in the right place.   My experimentation / works is really (a) to understand for myself what the new services will bring, and (b) provide local marketing information - specifically to cover an unusual set of circumstances of a station on a chord linking three main lines, with both its own internal traffic and connections that can go either way, and with a potential user community who are at present not heavy train users.  Anything that comes from this will be supportive of the professional timetables, for which the best format has already been briefly discussed, and no more.

I've taken a look at other community sheets - such as the Bradford-on-Avon one, and also been looking at mechanisms elsewhere; there certainly is a need, with the changing service, to provide rather more user-friendly information that the Cardiff - Portsmouth sheet, removing much of what it has on it that obscures the view of the TransWilts service, yet at the same time adding data on journey opportunities which it does not carry such as Temple Meads to Melksham, with a clear indication as to whether it's "Change at Trowbridge" or "Change at Chippenham".  There are going to be 15 journeys a day possible on that route, but Joe Public will need to be clear and certain which train to get on at Bristol if he's going to make use of them!

Change made, and a couple or other small adjustments notified / suggested by email too - revision at

http://atrebatia.info/aboutcrp.pdf

With the green button pressed by Wiltshire Cabinet on Tuesday ... we're full steam (or is that diesel?) ahead with the CRP station groups.   We need YOUR help.

More information at:

http://melksh.am/4198

Melksham on 25th October, Swindon on 6th November, Trowbridge on 7th, Chippenham on 12th and Westbury on 15th

Please spread the word.

I live in Trowbridge and I am likely to be using the extra rail services from December, although to be honest they will more likely be useful to me for leisure purposes than commuting, mainly due to cost factors.

I currently commute from Trowbridge to Swindon each day. To begin with I did this by car, but to be honest I hated it, far too much hassle. I looked around for a direct alternative, and settled on the 49 bus, which is the method I currently use.

Now I don't have any particular gripe with the bus service. The drivers are friendly, it generally shows up on time and it's a lot cheaper than taking the car. The problem is that it's just very, very slow.

I very nearly jumped for joy when I heard about the new services, particularly given that the peak times are ideal, and the journey time reduction would be fantastic. My problems were over.

Or at least, they were until I saw the price difference:

TROWBRIDGE TO SWINDON BUS FARES

Day Return ^5.70
Weekly ^20
Monthly ^76

TROWBRIDGE TO SWINDON RAIL FARES

Day Return ^17.60 (Peak) ^13.90 (Off-Peak)
Weekly ^69.10
Monthly ^265.40

Now, I am happy to pay a small premium for the vastly superior journey time advantage of rail, but I cant stretch to more than double the price on all options.

If I was to drive again (I wont but humour me) then according to the Connecting Wiltshire Travel Shift Calculator, my car costs for Trowbridge to Swindon would be:

Day ^11.54
Weekly ^57.70
Monthly ^250.03

Again, rail is uncompetitive. Is there a specific reason why commuters like us who should really be "low hanging fruit" for the new rail services should be priced off them like this, such as avoiding excessive out-commuting or overcrowding perhaps?

Things are far better on the leisure front, though. I've already booked Trowbridge to London day out for ^28.80 (via Swindon, 2 singles, ^8.17 saving over car) and Trowbridge to Oxford day out for ^21.20 (via Didcot and Swindon, 2 singles, ^5 saving over car).

Welcome to the forum - and what an important post to start with, and a set of questions very well asked.

Some more background / inputs / thoughts.  I have numbered these for easy back reference.

1. The ticket prices from Trowbridge to Swindon are also valid via Bath Spa.  Until 7th December, with trains from Swindon at 06:12 and 18:44 (only), and from Trowbridge at 07:10 and 19:38 only, the majority of passengers using one of the direct services as part of their commute have 'doglegged' in the other direction.  You'll meet different passengers on the direct morning and afternoon trains, as 11.5 hours in Swindon, or 13 hours in Trowbridge, is simply too long for a working day and that was the only direct option given.  With the addition of  further six trains each way per day (4 x the number of trains), the number of day trip return options direct explodes.   Here's a diagram comparing Trowbridge to Swindon options - with the current one in red, and ones added from 9th December in black:
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/toswindonsurvey.jpg)

2. The journey time from Trowbridge to Swindon varies from 34 minutes on direct trains, to twice that (and more) by bus. There's a comparison [here] (http://www.wellho.net/mouth/3641_Swindon-to-Trowbridge-transport-and-travel-options.html)

3. Passenger numbers from Trowbridge to Swindon aren't enough to justify a long train, nor a none-stop one, so the cost of provision per seat-mile, including the staffing cost and how long the train takes to cover a mile as well, is going to be high.

4. There's no way that a train running without permanent taxpayer input is going to compete with the bus with 100% taxpayer funding for travelers who travel on concessionary passes.  I appreciate that the original post wasn't talking about this group - senior citizens - but it's a point to bear in mind - "reductio ad abusrdum" if you like.  I wouldn't expect the train to make any significant inroads into the number of pensioners using the 49 bus service due to the cost, and due to the completely different routes served to that it's only through Trowbridge - Swindon traffic that is being provided with the new train option.

4a. If you're accounting for your cost of travel, how do you value your time?  Is your time worth - say - 15p per minute to you?  If so, your real cost (for a day return, peak) will be 17.60 + .15 x 70 for the new train service, or 5.70 + 0.15 x 160 for the bus.  That's 28.10 (train) v 29.70 (bus)

5. I don't think that the 11.54 for the car journey includes the cost of parking in Swindon. With cost of time as in the previous paragraph, you're looking at 27.44 + Parking cost.  (I am meeting with Connecting Wiltshire folks on Friday - I can check whether their pricing include parking if I get a chance)

6. Bus and train fares when looked at in terms of pence per mile are a bit of a mess ... and you're seeing that on this particular journey comparison.  That does sometimes leave you with extra options you may not have looked at.   I believe that for most Trowbridge to Swindon rail passengers, the benefit of being able to travel via Bath Spa on occasions that there's no direct train will be useful, and so the dual route use will continue to be useful.  But you could travel at a lower cost by train if you were to purchase Trowbridge - Melksham and Melksham - Swindon return or season tickets.  That's not going to compete with the bus fares, but if your place sufficiently low a value on your time for a wait to be better than paying more for more options, it's worth considering.

7. I use the train a lot, and will be using it more.  I could drive, I could take the bus.  Driving, I end up tired and irritable at the end of the journey, and I've not been able to work / read / sleep on the way.  I could use the bus, but I'm not really able to work or read there.  Train time isn't wasted time to me; I complete the journey having not seen my 15p per minute spent at all - it's not time taken from other things - and the train ends up cheaper for me in real terms.

Bear in mind on the leisure fares that 4 can usually travel for the price of two.  Did your car figures there include London and Oxford parking costs?  I look forward to meeting you on the TransWilts trains; they're not going to be for everyone making Trowbridge to Swindon journeys, but they are going to be very attractive to many people.  The Community Rail Partnership is keeping an eye on ticket costs, special deals, etc, and we have had conversations with FGW already on some matters.  Not necessarily in the direction of "please reduce prices" but rather more along the lines of "remove nasty expensive quirks, but make sure it's economically sensible to run the service too".

Edit to correct typos

I overlooked answering that in full in the complexity of the points I was addressing.  If you're happy without the dual route option - and it seems very much that the new times direct work for you - take a look at the limiting (but fine for you) alternative fare option in paragraph 6; that may make the train viable for you on a daily basis.

Interesting angle from WikiPedia


And that lines up with a note from a senior Trowbridge official who tells me that the number of journeys from Trowbridge to London in less that 2 hours doubles.

The reduction is now in - thank goodness - becoming historic.  The metrics of passenger growth as shown in the diagram at the base of this post, and the text with it in the LSTF proposal (http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/lstf-application-form.pdf) - "Notably, the highest growth in road traffic on the A350 was recorded between Trowbridge, Melksham and Chippenham, a section that currently has no viable rail alternative."   Note also that the diagram only shows limited population growth, yet the 2001 to 2026 forecast (second enclosure) show a much higher figure, and we know it's coming / to come.   The clever this is to have a viable service in place now next month, and as housing continues to expand ensure that people are aware of the option of rail travel as they change jobs / move houses.

I'm coming back to update an old thread here.    New fares have been introduced, via Melksham, as follows:
Day Return ^9.90 (Peak) ^7.00 (Off-Peak)
Weekly ^39.00
Monthly - checking for you but probably about ^150

43% reduction in fare! Does that help convert you to rail  ;D ?

Can't seem to find the via Melksham fares grahame :-\ :-X

According to brfares they do exist. But I cannot get any journey planner to show them. Or perhaps my searches are wrong?!

Am investigating.   They were introduced early December and I was not aware that they were for a limited period.  More likely that the January revision was prepared before they were introduced in December and has overridden them.

Watch this space.

I'm seeing the ^7.00 off-peak day return right now on a basic Trowbridge - Swindon return out at  1838 and returning later tonight, using the standard National Rail planner with no extra options, but haven't successfully found them on an actual TOC's ticket selling website...

Paul

See attachment.  Still researching what's happened / happening.

Being followed up further / I should get an email reply.   Hopefully just a glitch in system updates ...

Using National Rail journey planner, choosing via Melksham the off peak day return comes up ^7.00, click on 'buy now' I get directed to Virgin Trains, fare stays the same, (with the option of PlusBus Swindon ^3.00) and I can buy it right now, should I want to!

Confirmed as a glitch - but not an instantly fixed one.   Once fixed, these tickets should be available for sale again; I don't have a timeframe yet, nor can I confirm whether or not the 7 and 39 pound fares we've talked about will remain or be "+ January rise" - i.e. about 7.20 and about 40 pounds.

UPDATE

1. Anyone who has paid the erroneous higher fare will get a refund of the difference.

2. As of now, staff are instructed to manually override the system to charge the new lower fare while systems are being sorted out

That looks like an absolute bargain! So for the avoidance of doubt, I can get a return ticket from Frome to Swindon via Melksham (according to brfares) for ^7.00 Cheap Day return? It's 40 miles each way by car, so cheaper by train than even the cost of the petrol (assuming one person travelling).

By contrast, a Cheap Day return from Frome to Bath is ^10.20 (15 miles each way by car).

So that's 9 pence per mile for a trip to Swindon, and 34 pence per mile to Bath on the same ticket type. If only Swindon were a more attractive place to visit  ;)

Here is a video of 153305 head to Swindon from Westbury: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSp-nxaMOCQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSp-nxaMOCQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Sorry that it's taken me over a month to give the new service a try but at last we did a trip to Melksham today! Reason?: because I had to show my girlfriend where Southern Electric Contracting is before she goes for an interview next wednesday, lets hope she gets the job as that will be one more regular passenger from Trowbridge to Melksham.

You will have walked right past our door on Spa Road then - do drop in for a Coffee next time!   Hope the journey went well ... and that you didn't have the trains to yourself  ;D ... early days yet, but after-christmas middle-day poor-weather services aren't going to be the busiest!

Yes Grahame we are doing just that in the morning, I'm getting 0645 from Frome, collecting herself from Trowbridge and I've already phoned Well House to see what time we can pop in for a coffee (and maybe eats!). Avril wants to get the 0738 from Tro, sorry that I shall not meet you, I know that you are on your travels at the moment!

Wish her good luck at interview ... and I see you're also expected at Well House from the staff log  ;)

(Yes, I'm in Salford at the moment, and Elstree this evening)

Written to the local press - deadline is 11 a.m. this morning ...

An update - the "via Melksham" train fares are now back on line.    And for sale at ticket offices and (where facilities don't exist to buy at stations) on trains too.   Lots of people are involved in setting, approving and updating fares, and National Rail, the Department for Transport and First Great Western have all worked with unprecedented speed to get this sorted out quickly.

You'll find attached a screen shot from the National Rail web site, showing 4 options from Trowbridge to Chippenham between 7 and 8 a.m.   The fare is just 6 pounds return on the trains at 07:10 and 07:38 via Melksham, and the journey time just 20 minutes.   The 07:15 and 07:44 trains, with a change at Bath, take 40 minutes and cost 9 pounds return.

This is just a sample of the "via Melksham" fares that are fully and permanently available from West Wiltshire to Chippenham and Swindon.  Not only are they significantly cheaper than travelling via Bath, but they are also much nicer to use (being on direct trains) and the journeys are much quicker.     A real "good news" story!

Of course, you read the story here first  ;D

However, National Rail Enquiries doesn't sell tickets, so may direct you to FGW's website.

Where the via Melksham fares are currently unavailable. They have been inputted into some other users of the same booking engine software as FGW, such as East Coast and TransPennine Express, and into booking engines that use thetrainline software, such as South West Trains.

So current advice needs to add, "Please don't attempt to buy online via FGW."

Strange that booking engines at East Coast. TPE and SWT (and others) have been updated, but not the one who you are most likely directed to by NRE; the website of the company that actually runs the trains on the TransWilts.  ::)

Couldn't make it up, could you?    Ah - the dangers saying something until it's 111% certain.   I have a great deal of sympathy for operations staff who have to say how long something will take / how late a train will be, when in practise the answer is couched in probabilities and possibilities.   Almost there and I'm sure we'll look back on this discussion (soon, I hope) and it will all be water under the bridge.

I've just made a change in WebTIS which if my theory on the fault is correct should mean the "via Melksham" fare will display from tomorrow.

Thanks Ollie.  :D

I'll take a look tomorrow and feedback if necessary.

No worries, I will make sure I do a check too.

Unfortunately my change decided not to work.. I've gone back into the system and it's as if I didn't change a thing. Leave this one with me. I will see this one through to the end :)

I've done the change again, just in case it's something I did wrong..will check again at about 3am to see if it's worked.

Thanks, Ollie - that hugely appreciated; it's at this critical early stage of the new service that people are especially sensitive to finding out what the price, seeing it consistent, and giving the train a try.

I was on the 20:12 off Swindon this evening ... with 6 passengers southbound when we left Chippenham.  This was always going to be the 2nd hardest train from Swindon to 'sell' ... and I'm actually quietly encouraged.  Mostly long distance passengers on their way home to West Wilts - Melksham, Westbury and Warminster.

As I never tire of posting: where would First Great Western be, without the excellent Ollie, eh?  ::)

Thanks again, Ollie!  ;D

Hi All,

It looks like I've fixed it. I've only tested with a couple journeys though. So if you do spot any other issues please do let me know.

Looks good to me. Well done Ollie!  ;D