Great Western Coffee Shop

Something has to be done! What do you think?

Any other company would have the same problems of massive and somewhat stupid franchise payments if they had been the winning bidder, not to forget the appauling infrastructure!

CORRECT

Some people think it will all change overnight with a change of franchise ownership. How wrong they are. Better the devil you know!

You are right in theory but I am not sure that that is what woudl happen in practice.  If FGW got booted off, I doubt any new franchise would be as poorly specified or as greedy on teh part of the DfT as the FGW one.  If you think about the connex franchise things did improve (and more money was spent) when SET took over.  On teh other hand when GNER couldn't keep up with teh payments and gave up teh francise was transfered to NX on teh back of a bid with even larger payments to DfT

The main problem (whatever your view of who is to blame) is public perception. FGW need to turn things round quickly PR-wise and on the ground, otherwise things will just (in the mind of the general public, who vote) get worse for them.

The DfT wont stand back forever, even if ultimately stripping FGW of their franchise would come across as a partially hypocritical act.

If the franchise changed hands nothing would happen. If it split in two, like it used to be, it might change for the better.

I personally believe that removing the First Great Western franchise would be good.

Remember, it was THEIR fault that they introduced an abysmal timetable!!!!!!!!!!

It was THIER fault too much capacity was removed.

It was THEIR fault that they did not revert to the old timetable.

They give a poor customer service- THEIR fault.

I also think that the franchise is too big. FGW are obviously only interested in the InterCity (minus the Cotswold Line) services and the London commuter services. That's why they axed services on the branch lines and at Ivybridge.

I am fed up of Alison Forster/Andrew Haynes/any other person saying "we are sorry...blah...blah... we are trying very hard to improve x....blah....blah. "

Rubbish- they have had over a year, and several timetable changes. And yet they are still disgraceful. I also cannot believe they are getting rid of the Class 180s. Ok, they were unreliable, but we are talking about 1000s of seats here being magiced away from a company with critical overcrowding, on some services, and some lines with a poor level of service.

As George Osbourne said recently to Gordon Brown: "Forget your 'vision.' Get a grip ... and deliver a basic level of competence!"

1) The D(a)fT specifies the timetable that is to be run and FGW have actually INCREASED the amount of services that were in the specified timetable, as a matter of fact, FGW are running too many trains and the infrastructure is often able to cope.

2) The D(a)fT specifies who has what stock and it was their decision that a number of 150s/153s/158s were lost at the start of the franchise

3) The 180s are actually being replaced with higher capacity HSTs with far more seats. There may be a lack of stock at the moment as the refurbishement is still on going and not all the HSTs are in service.

well said Devon Metro!!! at times people on here need to get a grip of the facts ..and refrain from fgw bashing because its the in thing to do........and whoever said 180s are OK should spend 8 hrs a day on one

Well said old pal! The DFT are the real villians in all this! FGW have 12 more units than the franchise spec, are running more trains etc etc, what IS FGW's fault is that fact that they won't publicly criticise NR or the DFT!

Would Sir Richard Branson do any better if he had the chance to take over the franchise?

Yes he would still have to encounter the same daily operating problems as now but at least moral of the staff would be raised and Sir Richard would listen to his staff for suggestions

Perhaps moral is a good place to start with management talking to its staff who listen to the passengers comments and problems daily..........a few new fresh ideas would help things along to improve matters

After all, no staff no company, but more important the passenger is king and should be treated as such

Hmmmmmm, "Virgin Great Western," maybe.

He would certainly order some new trains to replace HSTs on long distances. Then the HSTs would relieve overcrowding on local lines.

But would this be good (HSTs are better than those awful Voyagers).

He might do really well (like Virgin West Coast).

Or maybe, he would muck it up even more (like Virgin Cross Country).

Personally, anyone could do better than Worst Late Western!

Personally i think he did a damn fine job on CC!

Doubling the passenger figures over the length of time he had the franchise i no mean feat...

I'd love to have seen virgin take over FGW's routes, but unfortunatly i cant see it happening for the forseable future.

Also i don't see what all the fuss is about voyagers/super voyagers, as from the 7 hour trip i made on 1 a year or so ago they were no worse than a HST!

I find Voyagers horriable - unless the engine in the carrige I am in is switched off - I find 180's a lot better, in comfort - vibrations - noise - legroom.

And HSTs even better. I couldn't imagine sitting on top of an engine for 5 hours from somewhere like Penzance - Paddington

But we then come to the typical problem - seats!

Welcome to the forum Superwang.

Oh no! With the current reliability of NR's Western lines, that would be Virgin on the ridiculous  :D

Sorry that's not right. It's OVER 2 years since FGW won the franchise, 2 YEARS in which FGW could work with the Unions and harmonised staff terms and conditions so that HST train crew could work local trains when needed and v/v.
Untill Harmonised FGW IS IN FACT STILLrun as 3 companies.
But then can you EXPECT FGW to do ANYTHING SENSIBLE

The bigger the franchise the better, BR ran services a HELL of a LOT better than we get today.

Which part of the FGW area are you from?

I'm not sure I agree with the above. Anyone looking back nostalgically to the days of BR are probably wearing rose tinted spectacles. From the start, BR job was to  minimise the cost of rail to the country.

We are still living we the consequent of merging regional companies to a large central company, with central investment plans that ignored the West Country.

The most successful post BR franchise was probably Virgin's Cross Country. Despite not being a principal rail franchise, and crossing many NR areas, it doubled it passenger numbers, had greater reliability and punctuality that FGW. That is a considerable achievement.

Finally, the fact that FGW has decided not merge, or has not been able to merge the Thames, Wessex and Intercity parts of it's franchise suggests that mega franchises are not a good idea. I would be happy to see the government split FGW into three separately franchise with appropriate franchise payments and subsidies for the duration of the current franchise. This is an achievable goal!

There is no easy fix to the current issues with FGW. It simply wont be solved by nationalising it.

What would be good though would be a considerable investment in new rolling stock.
A huge recruitment drive for new drivers, guards, rpi's, etc.

Unfortunatly, i can't see either of them happening. With FGW, or if it got re nationalised.

The government have spent far to much money on northern rock to bother with the huge investment they'd need to take FGW under there own control.

The only way to nationalise FGW (as they have done nothing wrong in the contract they have with the dft) is to buy 51% (At LEAST 10Bn pounds) share holding in first group, and The government would end up having to run/ selling off:


Rail services

First Great Western
TransPennine Express (55% stake)
First ScotRail
FirstGBRf
Hull Trains (80% stake)

Light rail services

TramLink

Bus and coach services

First Glasgow (formerly First Kelvin and First Greater Glasgow)
First Aberdeen (formerly First Grampian)
First Edinburgh (formerly First SMT, First Borders and First Midland Bluebird)
First Pennine (which forms part of First Manchester)
First Leeds
First York
First Bradford
First Calderdale & Huddersfield
First Manchester
First South Yorkshire
First Potteries (Operating in Staffordshire and South Cheshire)
First Chester & The Wirral
First Leicester
First Eastern Counties
Ipswich Rapid Transit
First Wyvern (formerly First Midland Red West)
First Cymru
First Berkshire & Thames Valley
First Somerset & Avon (formerly Badgerline & First Southern National)
First Essex (formerly First Eastern National)
First London & South East
First Bristol (formerly First Cityline)
First Hampshire & Dorset (formerly First Southampton and First Provincial)
First Devon & Cornwall (formerly First Western National)
Aircoach (Dublin)
New World First Bus (Hong Kong)
First Transit (Bus and rapid transit in USA)
First Student (School Bus services all over United States)
Greyhound Lines

So re-nationalisation really isnt going to happen. Whichever bunch of blithering idiots came up with this as a "good" idea, need to be hit around the head with the Common sence stick.

Please do not call me an idiot! I just put the option on the poll to see what people thought.

Besides, the gov. took over from Connex when they did a bad job, keeping the service going until it could be rebid. This worked well, and Govia are now doing a superb job!!

So it is not that bad an idea, is it?

A lot of this is down to First Group. As an example, the latest Golden Spanner Awards in Modern Railways (stock reliability) shows how badly FGW maintain its trains. As an example its fleet of Class 143s is the worst performing of the Pacer fleets, with only 2,037 miles per casualty, compared with 2,950 for Arriva Trains Wales' fleet of Class 143s, and 3,777 for the much derided fleet of Northern Class 142s, which have now moved down here.

Over the last year Arriva has improved it's 143 performance from 2,200 mpc to 2,950, whereas FGW performance has fallen from 2,811 to 2,037.

The performance of First's HST fleet is also worse than either Midland Main Line or GNER over the year, although admittedly this has shown a marked improvement from the previous year (though not enough to catch up with the others).

And that's before the huge number of cancellations and short workings we're seeing because of shortages of staff. So it is a valid question to ask whether someone else could do better, and one which I think this whole forum will debate for a long time to come. 

   

It wasnt directed at you, its directed at the group of "mps" who think its a good idea.

And yes it IS a bad idea, as they have to take over the entire of first group (unless first sell off fgw (which wont happen)). So they'd be in control of a large proportion of services that they dont need...

Sure it "might" be alright for FGW region, but it'll be a severe **** up for everywhere else.

Ok, I didn't realise.

However, the gov. could strip First Group of the Greater Western franchise, and then take it over.

This WOULD NOT require them to take over first group.

And yes, I agree with John R. Of course it is down to First that they operate such an abysmal service. Their staff are appalling, and a lot must be slackers, not turning up to do their job (hence= "cancelled due to a member of train crew being unavailable"). Gosh, in the days of GWR I bet this didn't happen. And it is First's fault that they do not have extra staff to cope with this.

And don't tell me that Andrew Haines has stated that they are hiring more staff. I do not believe a single word that he says. No: sacking, sorry "moving on," Alison Forster does not change a thing!!! The managing director/chief operating "officer" (what a joke of a title!) of FGW lie and blag and lie and blag, while they sit back on their comfortable salary. They have promised so much, had several timetable changes, and yet they deliver nought.

Ok, dft or sra tell operators what services to do, but these are minimum. Wessex did not axe services, First did. That's the difference.

Can't see the lazy staff comment going down well, its simply not true.

FGW staff work long hours and in bad conditions with abusive passengers.

Quite simply there aren't enough staff when lots of people want some time off around xmas.

It's not on to call FGW's staff slackers. The reason so many trains were cancelled over the weekend and on recent weekdays is down to the simple fact that there aren't enough traincrew on FGW's books to operate the normal timetable and cover for sickness and holidays to start with.

The cancellations were because not enough of them volunteered to work overtime and turn up for duty on a rest day. That's not their fault, that is down to an FGW management team which has been relying on staff working rest days to keep services running and has taken it for granted they will. This attitude, I'm sure, has contributed to the RMT and Aslef calling strike ballots.

And do you really want your trains to be operated by drivers and conductors who are constantly working extra days, week after week? I don't, as it doesn't sound like a recipe for safe operating in the long run.

But please don't get the idea that the DfT have a minimal part in what's going on. They are up to their necks in it. The disastrous December 2006 timetable was entirely their doing, as was the cut in the Wessex train fleet at the same time. Civil servants exert far more control over the timetables, operations and train fleets of supposed private operators than ever they did in the days of nationalised British Rail. Do you seriously suppose that any railway manager with half a brain would have axed all CrossCountry services from the South West and South Coast to the Lake District and the West of Scotland? That's what the DfT has just done.

I think the word needs to get out, and perhaps we can single handedly destroy the DfT?

Whilst we are at it, we may give Melksham a good service.  ;D

Edit by Graham - please; I for one don't want to "destroy" the DfT. Much better to work with them to turn around decision that were based on pessimistic forecasts, and before the environment was considered so ... for the mutual good.   Not just the Christmas spirit - I'll be saying the same thing in the new year

I've no axe to grind here, I'm not FGW staff, but I agree it's not fair to blame the customer facing staff - whether drivers, conductors, despatchers or revenue protection. It's not their fault personally, and most of them are doing their best to deal with problems not of their making. Accepted, there are a few who are less helpful, but they've probably become just as demoralised as us passengers over the way FGW management seem to lurch from crisis to crisis. I've been interested to note from various threads here that FGW staff often agree with passengers about the problems and their causes. It's more fundamental than just blaming it all on 'lazy staff'.

I do take exception to being called Lazy and a Slacker........and i really do think its about time people  researched The FACTs FIRST before dripping on and on

I have found - virtually without exception - that the operational staff do a magnificent job; I've nothing but admiration for the vast majority of them.  It is indeed utterly unfair to brand them as "lazy"; there are - as in any organisation - a handful who will earn the rest a bad name but that's a handful amongst - what - thousands.

There are excellent staff too at higher levels within First, and withing the DfT, Network Rail, Local Transport Autorities and the rest.  Even the regular traveller does not meet these people - perhaps he/she isn't even aware of their existence or their job roles, but I have been privelidged to meet a number of them over the last two years in conjunction with my requests for an appropriate service for the TransWilts line.

So where does fault lie?  Indeed - is their fault?  Well - I would look at the system as this thread was doing earlier - and I could point a few fingers.   But I'm not going to do so in the run up to Christmas.   I'm going to look forward to working in the New Year with friends and like-minded people in all the organisations involved.   There are good people - excellent people out there who in spite of the system are genuinely working to make things better.

For the record, I first talked about the cancellations due to staff shortages, which led to the comment agreeing with me and then talking about staff attitude. I certainly didn't mean my comment to imply that these shortages were the fault of staff or that they are in any way lazy. The majority of staff are probably much more cheerful and courteous than I would be working for an organisation that appears to have no idea how to run a railway and with customers who take it out on me.  No, I see it as a management problem fair and square (except on days when England were playing in the Rugby World Cup when there did appear to be a sudden increase in the number of cancellations due to unavailability of staff. But even then staff were probably taking long overdue days that they were entitled to.)

SO Merry Xmas to all FGW staff on the front line, and I hope you too have something to cheer about in 2008, as do all us long suffering passengers.



   

[/quote]

 Their staff are appalling, and a lot must be slackers, not turning up to do their job (hence= "cancelled due to a member of train crew being unavailable"). Gosh, in the days of GWR I bet this didn't happen. And it is First's fault that they do not have extra staff to cope with this.

[/quote]So we're appaling, lazy slackers? YOUR WORDS! Why would anyone want to work any overtime? Would YOU want to spend more time working for FGW than you had to in the current climate? which is ultimately down to the DFT's incompetence, maybe you should write to FGW and ask to do a days work experience with a Train Manager or a Revenue inspector and then pass comment when you actually know what your talking about, maybe try putting up with a few people of YOUR menatality only then will you see what we have to put up with, our staff do a great job in the circumstances.  >:( >:(

I am not a member of staff - but I ain't going to take that comment lying down.

Do you think
a) They actually want to turn up if they face a bloody attitude like yours
b) That FGW might not actually be diagraming crew for trains
c) Staff might actually be ill - belive it or not - humans break down!


I don't care how many you think are slackers - it is not on.

The frontline staff and frontline management do a fantastic job for the money they earn. Perhaps you should just either
a) Go out with a member of staff before and do their job - then say that or
b) Keep your mouth shut unless you have the full facts.

It is true, 1 or 2 staff do skive - but not as many as it seems you make out to. There would be an outrage if staff called passengers slackers when they didn't
a) Buy a ticket from the ticket office
b) Carry their own bags
c) Check times themselves
d) Shut Doors behind them - etc.

I think though if anything  - thing before they speak!

They havnt done anything wrong according to the legally binding contract they have with the DfT. So no they can't.  (If they tryed i'd put a bet on first taking legal action over it) As first are delivering the services they are contracted to do. As at the end of the day, the DfT tell first what trains to run, how many, and how often. The blame can be laid 75% at the part of the DfT, the rest can be given to first.

The earliest possible time anything will be changing is 2016, when the franchise gets refranchised.

As a result, FGW arn't going anywhere, for at least the next 8-9 years.

I'm delighted to see that all (bar one!) posters on this thread have a huge admiration and regard for the operational staff.  Me too.  I thought about voting on it but - no - I know what the outcome would be and we should move on.

Shazz suggested 75% DfT and 25% FGW "responsible" for the current situation.  Maybe ... although they act the way that they do because of the way the system is set up.   It's never an easy path to attempt to move forward by changing a system, and I advocate working within the system - pushing at open doors rather than closed ones, and certainly not trying to knock fresh doors through brick walls.  That way you end up covered in dirt and with little result unless you have a great deal of strength and preseverance.

I look forward to working with various parties next year towards the aim I have oft stated - of an appropriate train service on the TransWilts line, and wider afield too.

For the abuse they have to put up with, FGW train staff do a top job!

Why would anyone want to work any overtime?
[/quote]

Extra money?

Possibly even at an enhanced rate?

My dad worked for BT for 30 years - worked every single saturday morning - earned more that morning than for a full average day.

His mon-fri paid the mortgage, his saturday paid for the holidays and fun stuff.

This could be down to the fact that most companies overtime pay is the same as full time pay these days? ;)

Well yes, you do get extra money for overtime, and you do get an enhanced rate for rest days and Sundays. BUT, sometimes this is not enough, especially this time of year when you have better things to be doing, or if you've just had a few bad days on the trot, why would you want to do extra?? Staff morale is pretty low and people are kinda fed up with helping FGW out the sh1t that they have got themselves in....

Exactly right. I posted in another thread, that i could have worked 6 days overtime running up to xmas day, but there was no way this was going to happen after the farcical previous 2 weeks at work, facing loads of abuse etc. It doesn't matter how much money you earn for overtime, sometimes the time off is a much better option.

As a FGW hst driver, I have to work long driving hours, overtime and come in on my days off. also, I am shielded from the passengers until I leave my cab.

Yes I am then asked many questions usually from passengers in a state of dispair or stress and worry about their journeys

All the information I know is bits and pieces of information I have learned from my personal experience. If I pass on any info in good faith it is usually incorrect as FGW change things daily......even I am confused!!!

I constantly feel shocked and embarressed in the way our customers are treated for the fares they pay, and I do my utmost to assist them the best way I can within my power.........but it is never enough.

Moral is the MAIN thing to get off the floor, we are a battered, bewildered workforce, wandering aimlessly in a sea of baron desert with only an endless horizon of no hope to view

I strive to give a good service every day in my job, but my efforts are usually sabotaged by management practices or network rail probs.

I loved to come to work...........now I just come to work  :-[

So do spare a thought for the drivers, we may not be in the front line of customer service with all the info, but we do care and usually try to help you where we can...........usually ending up with getting abuse from passengers!

Can I just say welcome to the vicar. Superwang is known to me as vicar because the only time I seem to see him is on a Sunday as he works out of Swansea and me Bristol.

Have to agree on many of the points he has stated though 98% of staff ain't, if anything slackers, thirteen days out of fourteen worked ( can't work anymore as the rules drawn up by Lord Hidden after the Clapham Junction accident won't allow it ) and many of them 12 hour shifts because of the voluntering to that little bit extra to keep the service going. Coming off the booked shift for much the same reason as I've just quoted, just two of the things that I wouldn't do if I were a slacker. Some may say well you do get paid for it " and that is true but most of the guys & gals doing this job still have a little pride in the job they do although moral is now coming to it lowest ebb do it to put the customer first.

I said earlier that it won't change overnight, nor next week or the week after that and probally not next year either with a change of franchise ownership and those of you on here thinking it will are living in cloud cuckoo land.

I believe that after talking with a few of the Waterloo based SWT drivers (a couple of them ASLEF militants as well) we have a bloke in charge who was highly thought of at SWT and might even turn this shambles around given the chance, lets ( all of us) hope so! Oh and please remember that He's only been in the job 3 months

As I said earlier in the topic, the main problem is public perception. We forum members who, perhaps, have gained a little more knowledge of how the current situation came about than the average punter know that a) it isnt all FGW's fault and b) it is unlikely to be resolved quickly.

However, with a media frenzy which will soon be fed further by the upcoming MTLS action, growing calls from MP's for "something to be done" and the fact that passengers see FGW's name on the side of a train service which is simply not delivering, the result is a PR disaster of nightmarish proportions.

One that Haines knows he needs to resolve quickly, hence his focus on "customer excellence." Will he get the time he requires? Forster didnt, and many commentators (among them several forum members) spoke highly of her as well.

FGW need to strike some form of deal, where by they can get hold of lots of units, wether it be class 142s, when trains are busy, people aren't overly bothered what the train is like, as long as it is not falling apart!

Take the situation in Devon, previously we were stuck with 2 or 1 cars, with a few trains strenghned by a 153 at peak. Now we have some fairly permenant 4 car diagrams adding capacity. If FGW could hire some 142s *cheap*, services in Bristol could be strengthened and please the MTLS lot and other punters.

Units currently in storage, and (in theory) available to lease :

142071 - Angel Trains, Heaton depot.
142078 - Angel Trains, Glasgow Railcare Works.
142095 - Angel Trains, Heaton depot.
165127 - Angel Trains, Crewe Works.

Isn't the 165 from one of the rail crashes?

What about Mk 2 carriages? Surely there are more of these in storage, which FGW could bring in to strengthen DMUs in the Bristol area.

Ok, they may not be perfect. But seats.......

MK2's can be used on DMU's?

Could be the one in the quote below, anybody confirm? :



I have only listed DMU's. Feel free to post a list of other coaches etc in storage.

Moving on :



Another way of looking at it would be this :

WEST FLEET UNDER WESSEX :

Class 143 - 8 units, 832 seats.
Class 150 - 25 units, 3475 seats.
Class 153 - 15 units, 1125 seats.
Class 158 (2 - coach) - 12 units, 1680 seats.
Class 158 (3 - coach) - 9 units, 1971 seats.

TOTAL UNITS - 69
TOTAL CARRIAGES - 132
TOTAL SEATS - 9083

WEST FLEET - FRANCHISE AGREEMENT BETWEEN FGW AND DFT :

Class 143 - 8 units, 832 seats.
Class 150 - 17 units, 2363 seats.
Class 153 - 10 units, 750 seats.
Class 158 (2 - coach) - 22 units, 3080 seats.
Class 158 (3 - coach) - 1 unit, 219 seats.

TOTAL UNITS - 58
TOTAL CARRIAGES - 107
TOTAL SEATS - 7244

CURRENT WEST FLEET

Class 142 - 12 units, 1452 seats.
Class 143 - 8 units, 832 seats.
Class 150 - 19 units, 2639 seats.
Class 153 - 12 units, 900 seats.
Class 158 (2 - coach) - 20 units, 2800 seats.
Class 158 (3 - coach) - 1 unit, 219 seats.

TOTAL UNITS - 72
TOTAL CARRIAGES - 133
TOTAL SEATS - 8842

CAVEATS :

1)   Class 142 units are assumed to have 121 seats per unit (source - Angel Trains.) I am told that some may have less.

2)   Class 150/1 units are assumed to have 138 seats per unit (source - Angel Trains.) I am told that some have 124 seats per unit.

CONCLUSION :

1) FGW have 14 more units, 26 more carriages, and 1598 more seats in the West Fleet than was set down in the Franchise Agreement.

2) FGW have 3 more units, 1 more carriage, and 241 less seats (best case scenario) in the West fleet than Wessex had.

3) Wessex aimed for around 84% fleet availability, whereas FGW appear to be aiming for around 76%


FGW are in breach of the following sections of the Greater Western Franchise Agreement :

Appendix 11, Part 1, Sections 4.1, 5.12 and 5.14

Don't suppose you have a copy/ theres one online for the franchise agreement?

It can be found in the link below.
http://www.saveseverntunnel.co.uk/First%20Greater%20Western%20Franchise%20Agreement.pdf

No. I meant, for example, to replace a 2 car 150 with a 3 loco hauled Mk2 carriages.

Then use the 150 to: either provide another service (eg TranWilts shuttle)


     or to add it to another 150 to create a 4 car 150.

Result- more seats.

Again, this is not perfect.

Does anybody know if there are some spares lying around?

I would like to apologise for my rather harsh words earlier on this thread concerning staff.  ???

I was having a rant, and admit that I generalised too much.

Of course, FGW staff have to put up with a lot of stick, and it IS primarily down to management that there are shortages.

I have experienced a lot of very good staff, and I praise the drivers.

Once again, I am sorry for my comments, and will try to control my rant next time.

Merry Christmas  :)

3 Mk2s would be a waste. If fGW were to utilise locos and stock, which are very expensive, then they would be on the busiest routes as otherwise it is not fianancially viable.

I can see 67+6mk2s+67 being used well on Cardiff - Bristol - Weston Sm/Westbury

Thanks for posting those figures Lee, an interesting read. Of note - those 142 figures are based on the 3+2 style seating, of which are not used so overall seating capacity is around 100 per unit.

Thanks Liam. As my post suggested, I was wondering about that.

Well done for apologising and I'm sure all the FGW traincrew who post here and visit the coffee shop will appreciate it.

As you can see by the many posts that appear on this site that have been posted by FGW staff, they are about as fed up as the rest of us on how things are at the moment. This is the right place to have a rant but we always have to remember the human element involved and its the set up of this franchise thats at fault. Yes there are those organisations who have to take responsibility and we all know who they are  :)

Do MK2's have SDO on them? cant remember.

they would be ideal for expansion for pompey > cardiff, but unfortunatly i cant see it happening. Which is a shame.

They have CDL, not SDO.

IMO Cardiff-Ports would be difficult as it would need more driver training and they are further away from 'base' at SPM if anything goes wrong.

Cardiff - Taunton - Westbury, where peak capacity is at a premium would be more suitable and units released due to this could then be coupled to Portsmouth trains etc.

I agree, better to release some 158s by running loco/coaches on local services so they lengthen Cardiff-Pompey services.

They could always sub contract someone local like Cotswold rail to run the services for them. Such as "one" did when london > norwich services got diverted in summer 04

It's a great idea in principal using loco+stock but it has it's down sides 1) less seats per coach (quite a lot less!) unless they were to be refurbished but then more cost, 2) higher track access charges, 3) more fuel consumption, however, with CDL loco+stock still retain their "grandfather rights" as long as SDO isn't fitted, bear in  mind that the sleeper is yet to be fitted with SDO and therefore can still call at Hayle and Lostwithiel which have very short platforms.

No problem. I agree that I went too far and I hope that I have not insulted staff on this forum- it was not my intention!

Appology accepted.  :)

When FGW used MK2's when the line was closed between Plymouth and St Austell, the MK2's seemed to please customers a lot. All the seats where at tables, they had 6 carraiges so everybody thought FGW had increased capacity, basically it improved the image of FGW. And FGW could use the Riviera Alliance or someone like that to operate the services.

The only thing is Network Rail won't let FGW run Loco Hauled trains.

How long is the lease on the other 7 Class 142 units, Tom? If it is long-term then perhaps when the other 150/1 units arrive some of those "new" units could be used to provide extra capacity in the Greater Bristol area?

004, 028, 062, 067, 070 Short-Leased until October 2008 to cover for refresh program.

 ;D

Perhaps I should clarify.....

I know that 004, 028, 062, 067 and 070 (5 units) are short-Leased until October 2008 to cover for the refresh program. What I want to know is how long 001, 009, 029, 030, 063, 064 and 068 (7 units) are being leased for.

Oh sorry, misread the post.

Ok going back to loco-hauled stock (assuming FGW could get approval from Network Rail) :

CLASS 67 LOCOS IN STORAGE :

67008
67010
67013
67015
67016
67017
67020
67021
67025

All of the above locos are stored at Toton depot, are part of the tactical reserve, are serviceable, and are in EWS livery.

MARK 2 COACHES IN STORAGE :

Frankly, loads. Anyone want to be more specific about their requirements (for example, standard class only?)

It doesn't really matter what the MK2's where, they could be refurblished to whatever class was required but each train would need a brake coach, it would be nice if they where the F sub-class as well.

It was interesting to see that when FGW hired in loco-hauled stock for the Bristol-Bath-Chippenham shuttle service on the 15th of Dec, they even had two first class carriages on both rakes. With good reason of course as these services were connecting with trains from London with passengers changing at Bath Spa so anyone travelling first class could complete their journey in a degree of style.

Restricted to F sub-class :

Open 2+1 Seating - gangwayed, First Class :

13 possibles.

Open 2+2 Seating - gangwayed, Standard Class :

Over 100 possibles.

Open Brake - gangwayed, Standard Class :

9 possibles.

Driving Open Brake - gangwayed, Standard Class :

6 possibles.

Why?

It may seem a like a stupid question but...

I don't know why Network Rail don't allow FGW to run Loco-Hauled trains. They've stopped attempts at doing it several times, recently between Weston-Super-Mare and Bristol at the start of the new timetable.

This probably isnt the right answer to your question but the relationship between FGW and Network Rail isn't very good and thats being polite about it.

Yes FGW can very much point the finger at Network Rail for delays caused between London-Bristol/South Wales but a lot of that has to do with Reading being over capacity.

What they can't blame Network Rail for is the problems on the ex-Wessex services as they aren't responsible for FGW not having enough rolling stock and enough traincrew to run a consistently decent service which can be relyed on.

I think that it is silly, all those Mk2 coaches rusting away, while commuters have to be crammed into a 2 car 165!

What about DVTs? Would they be needed?

I heard an interview where the MD Andrew Haines said "we are scoring the land for extra rolling stock. However, it is currently not available."

Well Mr Haines, what about loco hauled Mk2s?

Its definately the answer in the short term freeing up units to bolster other routes until new rolling stock is built. Wales and West used to have a loco hauled set which they used mainly in the summer months on the Bristol-Weymouth route but it was kept on and used in the winter months as well to increase capacity on busy services.

According to Wikipedia they rented it from another company called "Fragonset" rather than a ROSCO.

Just an update on the poll 30/12/07:

Most people think something should be done, although a handful think that FGW should be left as it is.

A number of people think that the franchise should be split in two, with most of these not wanting FGW to have either half.

A few people think that the government should take over.

An interesting response!

It seems that nothing can/will be done, so lets just hope for improvements!

Happy New Year!  ;D

Actually Bill, more people have voted for "let FGW improve" than anything else ... although you could consider the other votes fragmented.   You're probably right that nothing can be done at the structural level, but a heck of a lot can be done in terms of making customer inputs to make it very clear to all parties concerned that they should be running a service that's fit for it's customers.

First Great Western are producing a newsheet called "Customer Matters."   Let's make it our mission in the new year to have them consider that "Customers Matter".

Happy New Year to you too ... and to all our members and guests.

But they haven't released the December edition, shows how much they actually mean that.

Yes I couldn't find a copy this month so lets hope for a bumper edition in January  :)

They were the days! it was under Wessex Trains that class 31's were hired on a "spot hire" basis, the same as now when they hire Riviera trains MKII's and EWS 67's , they were used on Fridays only for the 1200 Bristol-Brighton and the return working and also for summer services on the Weymouth-Bristol services and for ad-hoc fottball specials etc, it all ended when FGW took over!

They were the days! it was under Wessex Trains that class 31's were hired on a "spot hire" basis, the same as now when they hire Riviera trains MKII's and EWS 67's , they were used on Fridays only for the 1200 Bristol-Brighton and the return working and also for summer services on the Weymouth-Bristol services and for ad-hoc fottball specials etc, it all ended when FGW took over!
[/quote]

It was indeed fabulous having a set of peds based 6mile away!

Best thing FGW can do BESIDES HAND BACK THE KEYS TO DFT, IS SACK THEIR ROSTERING TEAM Most problems seem to be Train Crew Rostering, I've known Trains to Be Cancelled because of Shortage of Train Crew when the Cover turn man was sitting in the mess room awaiting instructions just yards from the cancelled train.
I also heard of a Driver from Depot A sitting in his cab in Station A waiting to leave when a Driver from Depot B has walked up to work the train and whilst they were trying to sort out who should work it a Driver from Depot C has turned up to work the same train, and he had been sent 100 odd miles by Taxi to work the train. With 3 drivers for one train it's a case of NO S**T SHERLOCK that there's a shortage of Train Crew. and it's the poor public that will end up paying for all these **** ups.

I have now shut the poll.

It is clear that a large majority want something to happen.

Perhaps it is unlikely...

What is this Rubbish about Network Rail won't let First Great Western run Loco Hauled Coaching Stock?

What's that train that runs at 23.45 from Paddington, 22.00 from Penzance then, CORNISH MIST?

A service thats been operating for years before network rail had a say in the railways, so they can't touch this...

They can obviously deny as many new services with loc's as they see fit.

Actually there's nothing stopping FGW running any loco hauled stock, and there's no "grandfather rights" in that respect, it would just mean that FGW pay more track access charges.

But they do the stop it on the odd ocasion as one offs such as betwen Weston and Cardiff at the start of the new timetable.
BTW Did you do any of the Loco Hauled in Cornwall a while back.

I did go on them once or twice, dont believe all you hear about NR banning the locos on the Bristol-Weston...

The loco-hauled in Cornwall seemed to be a hassle to operate for FGW. Would you agree?

Not really, it was very expensive though, but Network Rail paid for them in Cornwall.

Talking on about Loco Hauled Stock, which Includes HST, all the new stock these days are Muitple Units be they Vomet Comet, class 175 180 185, long distance trains should NEVER have gone over to UNITS.

Loco Haulage has many advantages, and some disadvantages.

Network Rail Charge more for a train with heavy Axle Loadings such as the Old Locomotives that used to Pull Express trains around, the class 46 used to weigh 139tons.

But HST power cars are arond 70 tons and more modern Power units to haul HST MKII would proberley be in the 60-65 ton range due to advances in construction and Power design
However using the HST formation with a power car at each end brings about some real advantages, when passenger figures increased under HST operation BR ADDED an Extra Carriage to the HST formantions.

Lond distance trains need to have at least 8 carriages so cost new will be 8 x ^500,000 plus 2 power cars cost around ^1.7m each so each HST MKII would cost around ^7.4million per train.

An 8 car unit will cost at least ^8million.

Of course you (the Passenger) have a much more pleasant ride in haulaged stock than a unit with engines banging away under the floor, and having engines under the floor causes a cost that nobody tends to think about.
 
Let's say a New HST fleet for FGW requires 38 sets in Service, you would need 40 sets to cover the service and have 2 racks of stock in for maintenance, you would need 82 maybe 83 locomotives to cover the Service, Loco servicing with all the parts of an engine take much longer than servicing the carriages.

However when using Units you still need 38 sets in service and 4 or 5 sets Extra needed to cover for servicing, that is the BIG disadvantage that is so often overlooked, whilst engine repairs take place on a Unit the whole rake of carriages is out of traffic.

Some of the saving in using Units is lost in increased Down time and a bigger fleet requirement.

Something else a proper thought out HST MKII would be able to incorperate Diesel and Overhead Electric Traction, not such a big saving on FGW (Yet) but big savings on East Coast and West Coast routes

You pick up on some good points there, but ommitted one in favour of units, when an HST power car fails then usually the train will have to be stopped short of it's destination because of the lac of power, i.e. they're not allowed through Cornwall on one power car, if one engine failes on a Voyager or Adelante then the train can keep going without too much trouble.

Regarding HST 2, here is a link regarding the Intercity Express Programme.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1013.msg5006#msg5006