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Title: France - railways, public transport, services and incidents (merged posts) Post by: Brucey on July 12, 2013, 19:49:12 I won't post the whole story here as it is constantly changing, however the BBC are currently reporting 6 people have died in a train crash near Paris.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23294630 SNCF have posted many photographs on their Twitter account: https://twitter.com/SNCF_infopresse Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 12, 2013, 19:57:57 Watching French TV, the reports are still garbled - even those commenting on SNCF's footage.
The best I can make out is that the train consisted of loco plus 6 carriages, the first two followed the loco through the station, and the third split from the second and all the last four derailed. The order of these events, and cause and effect, are not at all clear. The third car was almost smashed to bits, and the fifth ended up sideways across a platform with the sixth on a different track altogether. This aerial video gives an impression - the loco and first two cars are out of shot, perhaps moved. http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/accident-de-train-a-bretigny/video-bretigny-images-aeriennes-de-la-catastrophe-ferroviaire_368968.html (http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/accident-de-train-a-bretigny/video-bretigny-images-aeriennes-de-la-catastrophe-ferroviaire_368968.html) Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 12, 2013, 21:51:32 I've just seen a better aerial view, which shows two more cars so eight in all:
1,2,3 upright (but 3 may be derailed) and 4 on its side followed the loco 5 severely damaged on the wrong track 6, 7 on top of the platform canopy 8 on the original track. This clearer video shows cars 3 and 4, though it's hard to see what they are. http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/accident-de-train-a-bretigny/video-bretigny-images-aeriennes-de-la-catastrophe-ferroviaire_368968.html (http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/accident-de-train-a-bretigny/video-bretigny-images-aeriennes-de-la-catastrophe-ferroviaire_368968.html) Clearly an event of great violence. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on July 12, 2013, 21:54:04 Terrible.
The story accompanying that video says it is the worst accident in the past 5 years. It says also that the train left Paris a little early, but does not say whether that may be important. There has been a Red Plan activated, with fire service, ambulances, and helicopters, and the whole of the staff of all hospitals in the Ile-de-France region have been put on standby. That region is bigger than Greater London. There are many tens of people injured, some very badly, some lightly. The Twitter feed says that three inquiries have been opened, by the police, the transport ministry, and SNCF internally. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: Red Squirrel on July 12, 2013, 21:59:14 Echoes of Potters Bar 2002..?
Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: LiskeardRich on July 12, 2013, 22:27:54 Echoes of Potters Bar 2002..? This was my thoughts as well, has France been having our heat wave? Hear of speed restrictions because of rail contracting in heat. This may be a result of said effect? Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on July 12, 2013, 23:03:33 I thought of Potters Bar too, but decided to keep it to myself because the similarity as things stand is in the effect, rather than the cause. But it is eerily similar.
There was apparently permanent way work done around that area recently. It has been said on Twitter that there are 8 confirmed deaths, but that the fire service have yet to be able to get to the worst damaged carriage. This is a holiday weekend in France, and this is an awful start to it. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 12, 2013, 23:56:50 Yes ... a lot of things have been mentioned - most are irrelevant.
I was watching French rolling TV news, where they were running the available pictures - basically the same stills and videos you can find on the net - and egging experts (or "experts") on to give them news that had not happened yet (i.e the discovery of what caused it). Almost no attempt was made to relate the words to the very confusing pictures (which was my main motivation in trying to piece that together). Much of the "what might have caused ..." answers brought up the shortage of cash for "classic" lines, given the cost of LGVs, until recently when RFF started to complain loudly; or the political arguments against separating off RFF, let alone outsourcing maintenance (though major works sometimes are). From what I heard, the points that were replaced as urgent maintenance were on another line, and most reports said the middle of the train derailed first and then colliding with the station did most of the damage. There were estimated to be 370 passengers, hence the size of the emergency services call-out. Also hence the number of red herrings raised: e.g. in that number there is bound to be one passenger who says the train was going too fast, even if it was not., It's actually the worst accident for 25 years excluding level crossing accidents*, since French railways have a good record recently. I suspect that this is partly just random, but has given them a false sense of virtue. A predictable part of the news reporting has been listing the major post-war rail accidents in France (mostly not familiar to me). Two struck me as worth noting: A train that derailed on a viaduct due to buckled rails in the heat - very nasty, one carriage fell to the ground below. The collapse of the roof of a tunnel, with two trains involved in it. this was the worst recent rail accident, with over 100 deaths. It might explain a greater sensitivity to the dangers of tunnels (which I noted elsewhere). *revision: Allinges (described here http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12589.msg135332#msg135332 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12589.msg135332#msg135332)) was 5 years ago, with 7 deaths. However, it appears to be usual in France to exclude level crossing accidents (or deal with them separately) hence 25 years. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 13, 2013, 10:11:59 Further reporting this morning:
The official word is that the immediate cause is equipment not human - train speed was 137 km/h where the limit is 150. The driver is being given credit for raising the alarm very quickly, allowing other trains to be stopped in time to avoid further collisions. Within the common theme of "lack of maintenance/investment for over 30 years", the signalling has been cited, though none is older than 1970 and the main line is newer. There are four signal boxes within the Br^tigny area, with some equipment and trackwork as old as 1910! However, this includes operating freight yard, so again the oldest equipment will not be on or even near the main line. The points before the station are on an embankment, and at that point there is a small bridge over a road (Av. Jules Marquis). A new, bigger, bridge has been built next to it, apparently by insertion into the embankment without closing the line. The reports now say that subsidence/settlement at this point has been detected by a track measurement train* and urgent work was carried out on another track. The track relevant to yesterday's accident was inspected and passed on July 4th. * These use a Mauzin - a dynamometer car with two or four extra axles under it, able to duplicate specific ride characteristics and even derailment itself (i.e. simulate with real wheels and track - none of this computer modelling nonsense). I found one of these at Saint-Gilles-Croix-de-Vie last month, but it sneakily avoided being photographed, and I have not found a decent still picture on-line - the best is half-way through this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlDvMZChpuM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlDvMZChpuM) Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 13, 2013, 10:34:27 I have just seen an SNCF/RFF/SNCF-infra press conference. Unfortunately the TV pointed their camera at the speaker not the illustrations he referred to, but they said that a fishplate (or part of one) came loose and lodged within a flangeway of the points. Work proceeds to find out what broke (or came loose, or was loosened?) first.
Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: Red Squirrel on July 14, 2013, 18:15:52 I note that some tabloid reports are suggesting that passengers were electrocuted. Is that likely? Wouldn't the power have tripped out pretty quickly as soon as a derailing train shorted the circuit?
Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on July 14, 2013, 19:03:26 Thought so too, Red Squirrel. I'd have thought there would have been earth leakage circuit breakers, as well as residual current protection. But if one bit can fail... who knows?
Having a background which includes light aviation, I know that most "accidents" have at least three causes. We know from SNCF's initial disclosure that there was a line fault, which is presumably the primary problem. We do not yet know what the other contributory factors are. This does get more like Potters Bar every day. I hope our railway (and especially our government) learn from the French mistakes as they are revealed, rather than making more of their own. This is not a criticism of SNCF or CoRail, or anybody French, more an expression of my own wish that all transport systems are safe, because they learn from any source available. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: Red Squirrel on July 14, 2013, 19:33:44 I'm always amused when I hear people mistaking the statement that aviation is the safest way to travel (which it may be) with the idea that it is intrinsically safe - which it plainly isn't. Aviation is safe because a lot of highly professional people work very hard indeed to keep it that way. It is harder to imagine a more intrinsically fail-dangerous form of transport than one that involves travelling 6 miles up in something that will only stay there if it keeps moving very fast.
I worry that the kind of highly-evolved safety systems that make aviation viable (let alone safe) are hard to apply to a railway organised as it is - the essence of aviation safety is no-fault reporting, yet the railways seem to have 'blame' written into every contract. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 14, 2013, 19:36:21 The big puzzle is still how a fishplate had four bolts holding it when inspected on 4th July, and eight days later was loose and jumping about.
The latest info says one of the bolts was still there, and the fishplate rotated, but was so close to the points it ended in the flangeway. SNCF Twitter photos in this report: http://www.rtl.fr/actualites/info/article/train-paris-limoges-les-circonstances-du-drame-se-precisent-7763126734 (http://www.rtl.fr/actualites/info/article/train-paris-limoges-les-circonstances-du-drame-se-precisent-7763126734) If someone undid it, then who? why? Could it have undone itself? Electrocution was reported right from the start. The train mowed down several OLE supports, so the line may have dropped towards the ground before power was removed. In addition, this line is 1500V DC, not 25 kV AC, so the fault current to trip the breakers will be much higher. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: Electric train on July 14, 2013, 21:30:01 Thought so too, Red Squirrel. I'd have thought there would have been earth leakage circuit breakers, as well as residual current protection. But if one bit can fail... who knows? Earth leakage devices are of no use on an ac rail traction systems as they have earthed return system; in the case of dc electrification systems they have an earthy traction current return system even though there is no direct connection between the rectifier negative and earth the fact the rails and ground are close enough in potential not to case a problem. The reason for not having a direct earth connection is to manage stray dc return current , also extraneous metal work like signal posts, lighting columns etc are not bonded to traction return if they are earthed to other electrical systems they are often screened by an insulting barrier. Electrocution was reported right from the start. The train mowed down several OLE supports, so the line may have dropped towards the ground before power was removed. In addition, this line is 1500V DC, not 25 kV AC, so the fault current to trip the breakers will be much higher. Not sure what the fault current on the French 1500V dc is, generally on traction systems the protection is there to protect the equipment and not to protect protect persons from harm, wiring regs for buildings (eg BS7671) have a emphasise to protect persons from harm. It is possible that the French operating procedure is to re-close circuit breakers after a tripping which could mean if the wreckage was clear of the OLE and the OLE remained clear of structures it could have been recharged. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: SandTEngineer on July 14, 2013, 21:49:53 Very similar to the incident at Southall back in 2002 (not the train collision one) http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2003/e03027.htm
Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on July 15, 2013, 16:47:03 ... they are often screened by an insulting barrier. Ah, les Fran^ais - quelle finesse! But seriously, ET, I appreciate the explanation. As a barrack-room electrician only, I had missed the blindingly obvious. It seems then that the main protection from shock is normally the physical separation of equipment from civilian. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: thetrout on July 15, 2013, 16:54:01 When I saw the news about this my initial thoughts on hearing the accident was related to a set of points was actually Eschede 1998 Accident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_train_disaster) There is a Seconds from Disaster Documentary here about the accident. I'm not a great fan of the way the program is delivered, and this one easily wins a place in the irrelevant stock thread in The Lighter Side, after using MkII ExGatwick Express Stocks as a substitute for an ICE!
Eschdele was the results of a defective wheel which lead to a chain reaction of unlikely, yet unfortunate and devastating events. This included knocking over a set of points to the wrong position. What struck me as similar was that part of the train travelled over the points successfully before being diverted off the running line and hitting a bridge. I guess that would have been different if it was the Power Car Wheel that failed. However the similarities to Potters Bar are also frightening. Indeed the collision with the Station Canopy was another part of the Potters Bar Crash. But what was of interest to me was that it was the third coach that derailed. Just like Eschede where the leading power unit didn't derail and a trailing carriage did, although the main causes of both accidents appear to be very different. It seems odd that it was the third coach. Also seems unusual that another Train travelled over the same track about 30 minutes before the doomed train did. I guess we can be fortunate to say that there were no Diesel involved. I'm minded of the events of Ladbroke Grove where the OHLE Equipment set the Diesel Vapours alight during the 1997 collision. If that were the case here I fear the consequences could have been much, much worse! I also think that the contrast to the safety of Aviation vs other transport modes is ridiculous. A Pilot told me you're more likely to die slipping over in the bath than on an Aircraft. Whilst statistically he may have been right. If I'm onboard a train that crashes, take Grayrigg Accident for example. Or an Aircraft Crash... Which one am I likely to survive the most? He Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: JayMac on July 15, 2013, 17:06:23 Points, switches, crossovers, call them what you will, are always going to be a weak link in the safe running, at speed, of trains.
That's why they need special attention, and regular inspection. And after any sort of maintenance they need to be checked, checked again and triple checked. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: Red Squirrel on July 15, 2013, 17:09:51 I also think that the contrast to the safety of Aviation vs other transport modes is ridiculous. How so? Are you saying that rail has nothing to learn from the excellent safety systems used in aviation? Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: thetrout on July 15, 2013, 17:22:58 I also think that the contrast to the safety of Aviation vs other transport modes is ridiculous. How so? Are you saying that rail has nothing to learn from the excellent safety systems used in aviation?Oh gosh... I didn't word that very well at all! No, I was saying that basing a safety record of aviation to rail is completely ridiculous. I certainly think that some aviation safety methods could work very well on the railway. However by saying that Air Travel is statistically safer, is a little smug in of the Aviation industry in my opinion, as the methods, vehicles, training etc is very different from a Railway. If you look at the amount of times the average commuter flies every year vs the amount of trains and buses they catch every year, you may see what I'm getting at! Also look at the amount of flights in/out of the UK every year vs the amount of timetabled trains run every year, it soon becomes apparent that you cannot base one from the other. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on July 15, 2013, 18:00:17 I also think that the contrast to the safety of Aviation vs other transport modes is ridiculous. A Pilot told me you're more likely to die slipping over in the bath than on an Aircraft. Uncannily, I once almost did both within 12 hours. The morning after successfully flying my first ever solo cross-country flight, I made a non-standard departure from the bath after my shower, suffering what physicists call a "rapid decrease in potential energy". I woke up sometime later, having stopped my fall with the edge of the toilet. You are quite right about the comparison of risks in transport being futile. Walking is not without its perils, especially if done badly. The truth these days is that when we set off on a journey, it is always with the expectation of arriving safely. This is a fairly recent thing - there is still no news of John Cabot. Much of the English law relating to negligence and personal injury, and especially who is responsible for what, arose out of litigation after train crashes. That doesn't make rail travel any more or less dangerous than any other mode, just older than most. Until rail came, very few people could travel fast enough to damage themselves or others. Air traffic control is not unlike block signalling in some senses. A piece of airspace has to be empty before another aircraft can enter it, although the majority of the sky above us is uncontrolled for small aircraft flying visually. Maintenance schedules are stringent - one of the first steps in planning a flight is to check the tech log to make sure you'll be home before the next 50 hour check is due. I assume rail operators and Network Rail have similar regimes in place. I'm struggling to think of any other similarities. Risk assessment has a dirty name these days, but it's what keeps us safe - mostly. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: broadgage on July 15, 2013, 18:15:31 I note that some tabloid reports are suggesting that passengers were electrocuted. Is that likely? Wouldn't the power have tripped out pretty quickly as soon as a derailing train shorted the circuit? Very unlikely in my view that anyone on the train could have been electrocuted. Whilst it is entirely possible that displaced and still live OHLE came into contact with the train, this is unlikely to be dangerous. For electricty to be dangerous, current must pass through the body, for example by touching a live conductor whilst in contact with earth. Someone on a train that is in contact with live wires should be safe as all parts of the train would be at same voltage. I consider it much more likely that those on the train were killed by impact, crush injuries etc. For someone on the platform the position is very different, a person standing on the ground could well be killed by contact with displaced overhead line equipment that remained live, even briefly. It should be noted that overhead line failures (without any other accident) occur regretably often in the UK, often resulting in the wires contacting the train, I have never heard of anyone on the train getting an electric shock in such circumstances. Bystanders and trackworkers would be at some risk in such circumstances. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: JayMac on July 15, 2013, 18:18:36 The morning after successfully flying my first ever solo cross-country flight, Being that it was cross-country, were there plenty of toilets, but all smelling worse than a downtown Kolkata sewer? Did you turn up expecting a seat but had to fight for one because the reservation system had gone t*ts up? Did the on-board catering consist of nothing more than a melting Kit-Kat and a warm can of Carling, delivered to you by a trolley dolly who turned up 3 minutes before your destination? That's my experience of travelling solo cross-country. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 15, 2013, 19:25:48 For someone on the platform the position is very different, a person standing on the ground could well be killed by contact with displaced overhead line equipment that remained live, even briefly. Four of the six people killed were on platforms, though I've not found out whether this was by impact with the train, a cable or other infrastructure, or by electricity. And several people were thrown from the train as windows smashed and in some cases carriages broke up. All told, I am still amazed so few passengers were killed. There were two SNCF staff on the platform who saw a carriage coming towards them, sideways on, at high speed. They threw themselves on the ground and the carriage was launched into the air over them and onto the canopy. Now that is really scary - others sadly were not so lucky. At 1500 V, one ohm circuit resistance, hence 1500 A, the power (in simple terms) is 2.25 MW or about 3000 HP. That's about one train (at full power). If a supply has to cope with several trains, it has to supply a total circuit resistance of well under one ohm. So it will take a very firm contact with the ground (or grounded metalwork) to produce such a low resistance to Earth, and carry a big enough over-current to then trip the supply. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on July 15, 2013, 20:07:17 Looking at the electrocution question again, I recall hearing that DC is more dangerous than AC, because the latter causes muscle spasm, meaning that one is likely to be thrown away from the danger. No-one on the train would be in danger in any case, but people on the platform may, sadly, have been. It remains a moot point only. Being crushed or electrocuted is unimportant compared to being killed or seriously injured.
Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on July 15, 2013, 20:08:26 Being that it was cross-country, were there plenty of toilets, but all smelling worse than a downtown Kolkata sewer? Did you turn up expecting a seat but had to fight for one because the reservation system had gone t*ts up? Did the on-board catering consist of nothing more than a melting Kit-Kat and a warm can of Carling, delivered to you by a trolley dolly who turned up 3 minutes before your destination? That's my experience of travelling solo cross-country. For the record, the onboard catering consisted of a packet of mint Imperials that I forgot all about once I left the ground. Toilet facilities consisted of waiting until I landed. I did have a seat, however; the left-hand one. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 15, 2013, 20:34:59 Looking at the electrocution question again, I recall hearing that DC is more dangerous than AC, because the latter causes muscle spasm, meaning that one is likely to be thrown away from the danger. No-one on the train would be in danger in any case, but people on the platform may, sadly, have been. It remains a moot point only. Being crushed or electrocuted is unimportant compared to being killed or seriously injured. I think it is the other way - DC produces strong constant muscle contraction, but AC produces more of a twitch, though it can be very strong. The extra danger was supposed to be when you are gripping something and cannot let go, since hand muscles only pull one way (to grip). In other parts of the body muscles oppose each other, so the effect is less predictable. If this effect is important, it might show up in the advice on how to rescue someone from the third rail. However, I rather think the actual advice is to keep clear, and a very out-of-date version that advised some action would be of dubious scientific basis. Either way, what kills you is ventricular fibrillation due to the small part of the current that goes near your heart. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: Electric train on July 15, 2013, 21:01:05 ... they are often screened by an insulting barrier. Ah, les Fran^ais - quelle finesse! But seriously, ET, I appreciate the explanation. As a barrack-room electrician only, I had missed the blindingly obvious. It seems then that the main protection from shock is normally the physical separation of equipment from civilian. It is unlikely that anyone was electrocuted, as soon as the wire hit the ground or a return path (earth) fault clearance and limitation of rise of earth potential are governed by EN50122-2 I can not recall an incident where a passenger in a train has been electrocuted by the passage of OLE fault current through a train. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on July 15, 2013, 21:12:52 [I can not recall an incident where a passenger in a train has been electrocuted by the passage of OLE fault current through a train. Neither can I. The "Faraday Cage" effect would see any current running to earth around passengers, rather than through them. I have twice, in former times, seen Blackpool trams - both double-deckers - "brewed up" by a catastrophic short circuit. No passengers were harmed, although many were shaken by the sight and noise, and even more were inconvenienced. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: Electric train on July 15, 2013, 21:25:03 [I can not recall an incident where a passenger in a train has been electrocuted by the passage of OLE fault current through a train. Neither can I. The "Faraday Cage" effect would see any current running to earth around passengers, rather than through them. I have twice, in former times, seen Blackpool trams - both double-deckers - "brewed up" by a catastrophic short circuit. No passengers were harmed, although many were shaken by the sight and noise, and even more were inconvenienced. That's when you find out that adrenalin is brown, very runny and can be found in your under pants :o :o ;D Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: ChrisB on July 17, 2013, 12:30:29 No one has yet reported that it was a fishplate stuck in a diamond cross-over some yards north of the station...twitter photo (which I meant to grab) showed it stuck in the crossover. A loose nut on the wooden (rather old & splitting) sleeper that the diamond crossing was attached to.
Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 17, 2013, 18:28:26 No one has yet reported that it was a fishplate stuck in a diamond cross-over some yards north of the station...twitter photo (which I meant to grab) showed it stuck in the crossover. A loose nut on the wooden (rather old & splitting) sleeper that the diamond crossing was attached to. Er - actually I did, on Saturday, and on Sunday (in http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12646.msg135922#msg135922 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12646.msg135922#msg135922)) with a link to several pictures.Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: ChrisB on July 17, 2013, 18:39:41 Indeed you did. It was the mention of it having rotated while attached by one bolt that threw me - the photos in that article you linked to very clearly shiws one totally loose fishplate in the diamond of the crossing damaged where the train has obviously gone over it, and another loose lying on the sleeper aside the diamond. Neither attached by one bolt
Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 17, 2013, 19:04:50 Indeed you did. It was the mention of it having rotated while attached by one bolt that threw me - the photos in that article you linked to very clearly shiws one totally loose fishplate in the diamond of the crossing damaged where the train has obviously gone over it, and another loose lying on the sleeper aside the diamond. Neither attached by one bolt Strange - what I see in the article is a diagram that explains how it rotated, and a picture that shows one bolt in place that might or might not still be intact right through the fishplate. Clicking through to the original picture, full size, I think the bolt is still there but a bit bent (understandable after a train has gone over it). So is there another picture that shows it better? Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on July 17, 2013, 20:05:30 From Twitter, so in the public domain:
(http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/Boyamijealous_7108a707/large_zpsd643a665.jpeg) Somebody tell me if there's a copyright notice embedded. I couldn't see anything. The Twitter description says "Plan and picture of splints" - the French word "eclisse" is used for fishplate. There's a second picture in the SNCF Twitter feed: (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/Boyamijealous_7108a707/large2_zps42c6d5c7.jpeg) These two, and the plans are brought together in RTL.fr (http://www.rtl.fr/actualites/info/article/train-paris-limoges-les-circonstances-du-drame-se-precisent-7763126734), which includes a quote by Jacques Rapoport of RFF, which is roughly translated as "We know what happened, but not why it happened". Messy. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 17, 2013, 20:08:21 Yes - that's the one in the article I was talking about. I think you can just about see the bolt going through the rail and fishplate.
Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on July 17, 2013, 20:32:52 I see what you mean, Stuving. It might not be as it looks, of course. There are what look like undamaged loose bolts in those pictures, plus the one through the rail. The metallurgist will be able to interpret this scene, to show what order everything came apart in.
Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 19, 2013, 11:18:18 A couple of things struck me in the pictures. It was always clear that the bits sitting on the rail in the second one had been collected and put there, presumably after the main legal record photos had been done. Looking closer, I see several rusty bolts, presumably discarded during earlier work. Isn't this now regarded as unacceptable in Britain, at least since Potters Bar and Grayrigg?
There are a number of new-looking loose nuts, but also what look like bolt heads (square) and shafts that have been sheared. What stands out by its absence a shaft with a nut still on it. It is not clear which way the bolts went through this particular joint - the gap on one side looks narrow enough to hinder inserting a bolt, but maybe not. You can see why the official response has been one of energetic head-scratching. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: Electric train on July 19, 2013, 18:58:17 A couple of things struck me in the pictures. It was always clear that the bits sitting on the rail in the second one had been collected and put there, presumably after the main legal record photos had been done. Looking closer, I see several rusty bolts, presumably discarded during earlier work. Isn't this now regarded as unacceptable in Britain, at least since Potters Bar and Grayrigg? There are a number of new-looking loose nuts, but also what look like bolt heads (square) and shafts that have been sheared. What stands out by its absence a shaft with a nut still on it. It is not clear which way the bolts went through this particular joint - the gap on one side looks narrow enough to hinder inserting a bolt, but maybe not. You can see why the official response has been one of energetic head-scratching. I feel the French Railways might be going through the same sort of problems that surrounded the UK Railways 10 to 12 years ago, fragmented organisation, lack of investment etc Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on September 11, 2013, 23:08:04 Le Monde reported yesterday that the judicial investigators had observed over 40 anomalies in the set of points that caused the derailment. On closer reading, these are things listed by investigators with no expert knowledge, that should be referred for an expert opinion - which is not really the same. However, they still wanted to add a charge against RFF of "knowingly risking other people's lives" - which was refused by the prosecutor's office.
No sign yet of report - BEA-TT (equivalent to RAIB) seem not to do interim reports. At the same time, CFDT (not the biggest rail union, and certainly not usually the noisiest) has tried to link this accident to the state of the Nantes to St-Gilles-Croix-de-Vie line, in a letter to the ministry. The fact that this line is in dire need of replacement is not news - as reported elsewhere on this forum. The supposed link is lack of money, due to it all going on TGVs and LGVs. Again, not much real news behind the headline. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on September 24, 2013, 01:48:02 Le Figaro has got hold of SNCF's initial report to the investigating judge, submitted on July 22nd (ten days after the accident). It concludes (from the rust in the hole) that the fishplate that jumped had been missing a bolt (No. 3) for some time. Perhaps suprisingly it was bolts 1 and 2 that sheared and it pivoted about bolt 4.
The opposite fishplate was worse, with one bolt missing, one missing a nut, and the other two loose! This passed inspection eight days earlier. SNCF have responded with a press briefing, but with no direct recording of it - but have released the report itself: http://medias.sncf.com/sncfcom/pdf/presse/Rapport-Bretigny-Deraillement-train-n3657-12juillet2013.pdf (http://medias.sncf.com/sncfcom/pdf/presse/Rapport-Bretigny-Deraillement-train-n3657-12juillet2013.pdf). I'll have a further look at it tomorrow and report here, but initially it seems that Le Figaro have the basic facts. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on September 24, 2013, 11:55:41 The main points of this report are indeed the ones already noted. I won't copy all the pictures; I think most are pretty clear without the words. The damage to the brake disc in figure 7 is on the last axle of the third carriage, which did not derail. It is thus thought this contact flipped the fishplate, already bouncing up, into the flangeway.
A few other things:
The layout also looks dated to me - with its long diagonal track having a double slip where it crosses each running track. I've seen similar pre-war layouts here, but none in use now. Why were they thought clever then, and more importantly why are they now not acceptable? Is it anything to do with reliability and maintenance? Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on September 26, 2013, 09:14:46 Another piece in Le Figaro. They have got hold of some track inspection records going back to February, and say that these did mention faults on this stretch of line. However, the detail is a bit lacking - while they say a missing bolt was recorded in February, it may have been a different one. They reproduce part of the last inspection sheet, noting it was done by a newly-appointed young engineer walking the line alone rather than with a lookout. This does note some bolts to be tightened, but none missing, and stops just before the accident location.
Severe cracking on one of the rails was recorded in April at the relevant joint, with "must repair within 3 months" urgency. It is hard to see how this could have been examined without seeing the missing bolt. One of their "experts" commented that that the inner bolts were much more important that the outer ones, to the extent that on first finding one missing you would swap a bolt from the outside. Does that sound right? I find it hard to believe. http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2013/09/26/01016-20130926ARTFIG00280-bretigny-des-anomalies-avaient-ete-reperees-plusieurs-mois-avant-l-accident.php (http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2013/09/26/01016-20130926ARTFIG00280-bretigny-des-anomalies-avaient-ete-reperees-plusieurs-mois-avant-l-accident.php) Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on September 26, 2013, 16:10:01 Another piece in Le Figaro. They have got hold of some track inspection records going back to February, and say that these did mention faults on this stretch of line. However, the detail is a bit lacking - while they say a missing bolt was recorded in February, it may have been a different one. SNCF have responded immediately to point out that Le Figaro have misunderstood these inspection reports. That's easy to do, since they are written in a very abbreviated form of railway jargon. Still, on a national newspaper the journalists ought to know where they only have "a little learning". Maybe the experienced railwaymen they consulted had the wrong kind of experience?The two key errors were that the piece of the relevant double slip crossing that was cracked was actually an earth continuity connection (bond), not a rail, and the bolt noted as missing was not in a fishplate, but in a gauge tie bar. They did use the right word for this (entretoise but did not understand it. The SNCF site http://www.sncf.com/fr/fil_info/presse/Bretigny-rapport-enquete (http://www.sncf.com/fr/fil_info/presse/Bretigny-rapport-enquete) has the three relevant inspection sheets plus a short document pointing out the errors, and that this section of track was subjected to "fixing and tightening" visit in week 12 (March). The sheets still contain lots of puzzling cryptic entries, especially the last one (4th July). I've managed to find most of the jargon words involved, but not their abbreviations. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12/7/13 Post by: stuving on September 27, 2013, 00:21:07 There was a TV report on SNCF's and RFF's maintenance standards tonight (Envoy^ Sp^cial, F2). Largely familiar - my favourite line to Saint-Gilles-Croix-de-Vie featured again, which everyone agrees is overdue for rebuilding, plus other lines with severe speed restrictions. Not very much directly about Br^tigny sur Orge, where the journos seemed unable to cope with the boss of SNCF saying it was almost certainly down to maintenance, and so their fault, but not admitting that it definitely was. Of course that's simply because the investigations are still underway.
Similarly, a point was made that after a low-speed derailment at Lyon two weeks earlier (26th June) SNCF instructed staff not to use the D-word. The accident is listed by BEA-TT (French for RAIB) as an ongoing investigation, so it's hardly a secret. It was apparently due to a wheel breaking up, and the programme reported that a batch of 236 wheelsets had to be traced and recalled as they were assembled using the wrong torque (on its wheel-fixing bolts, I think). That was not the cause at Lyon, after which another batch of wheelsets had to be checked. So the picture is building up that the safety culture and organisation had slipped below the required standards. And Guillaume Pepy (SNCF boss) is already talking about pre- and post-Br^tigny eras, much as Hatfield marked a radical change of priorities here. Title: Re Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on October 11, 2013, 08:56:19 RFF and SNCF Infra announced on Tuesday an urgent programme of accelerated inspection and replacement of track, concentrated on the most heavily used S&C, called "Vigirail". This is a direct result of the Br^tigny-sur-Orge accident, and they warn that the extra possesions for the work will lead to some disruption. This follows on from the emergency work immediately after the accident, in which they claim to have inspected 5000 crossings, 100,000 fishplates, and 520,000 rail clamps in two weeks.
There is no new railway money involved, just collecting an extra ^410M according to SNCF) over four years from other budgets. Most of this is planned to double the number of replacements to 500 per year, and to recruit more staff to do it. Small amounts go on digitising the maintenance records and management, and on some new survey trains using HD video to inspect tracks. SNCF info at http://debats.sncf.com/bretigny-sncf-et-rff-lancent-vigirail/#.UlevWFCkpcg (http://debats.sncf.com/bretigny-sncf-et-rff-lancent-vigirail/#.UlevWFCkpcg), and full text at: http://www.rff.fr/?page=ajax_view&real_action=download&file_url=IMG/pdf/DP-Bretigny-sur-Orge_Point-presse-N6.pdf (http://www.rff.fr/?page=ajax_view&real_action=download&file_url=IMG/pdf/DP-Bretigny-sur-Orge_Point-presse-N6.pdf) Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on January 09, 2014, 08:24:34 Advance news (in French) on RTL (http://www.rtl.fr/actualites/info/article/accident-de-bretigny-l-enquete-pointe-une-serie-de-dysfonctionnements-7768611306) of the results of the enquiries. The first report is due out tomorrow - I think that's the interim technical report from the BEA-TT.
RTL concentrate more on the (leaked) prosecutors' report, which seems to be heading for a criminal prosecution as well as a civil liability case. The news item talks about missing bolts in fishplates that no-one is bothered about, and maintenance that was both random and not thorough enough. The other theme, which is obviously going to have political implications, is the confused relationship between RFF and SNCF, and how this clouds the responsibility for maintenance standards. All sounds rather familiar, doesn't it? Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on January 10, 2014, 12:15:50 BEA-TT produce reports very similar in style and thoroughness to RAIB's. The interim report (http://www.bea-tt.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/rapport-d-etape-r202.html) on the Br^tigny-sur-Orge accident is no exception. Of course that means it will take a while to read through (and no English text at the moment) ... but here's an initial appreciation:
The technical explanation is in line with what we heard earlier, but with more detail. The key facts, I think, are:
The report comments that this trackwork is particularly complex and needs a lot of maintaining:
The country-wide inspection of similar crossings after the accident showed up a lot of deficient single fixings, though no immediate serious risks. Of course there is enough redundancy that it takes more than one bolt to fail before it causes an accident. They did find:
The report notes the similarity of this track failure and resulting accident to Southall (2002) and a Danish accident (Farris, 2012), but not Grayrigg (2007). In all cases they observe there were specific technical issues, as well as poor maintenance. The immediate recommendations are as you would expect:
*I'm not sure what this piece is specifically called - but I now believe it is an obtuse crossing. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: Electric train on January 10, 2014, 20:29:15 The report notes the similarity of this track failure and resulting accident to Southall (2002) and a Danish accident (Farris, 2012), but not Grayrigg (2007). In all cases they observe there were specific technical issues, as well as poor maintenance. I find there drawing a parallel with Southall strange, my recollection was not a track failure, it was Railtrack signaller / route control crossing a freight train from Southall Down West yard across to the UP Relief, which meant crossing over the DN and UP Main and DN Relief in front of a class 1 passenger train which was compounded by the ATP not functioning correctly and the drive "packing his bag" I do think Network Rail are in a much better place than they were at the time of Grayrigg in 2007 I cannot speak for maintenance, in projects the process, procedures and checking that has to be done before, during and after any work is exceedingly onerous. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: SandTEngineer on January 10, 2014, 21:38:14 The report notes the similarity of this track failure and resulting accident to Southall (2002) and a Danish accident (Farris, 2012), but not Grayrigg (2007). In all cases they observe there were specific technical issues, as well as poor maintenance. I find there drawing a parallel with Southall strange, my recollection was not a track failure, it was Railtrack signaller / route control crossing a freight train from Southall Down West yard across to the UP Relief, which meant crossing over the DN and UP Main and DN Relief in front of a class 1 passenger train which was compounded by the ATP not functioning correctly and the drive "packing his bag" I do think Network Rail are in a much better place than they were at the time of Grayrigg in 2007 I cannot speak for maintenance, in projects the process, procedures and checking that has to be done before, during and after any work is exceedingly onerous. Wrong derailment. That was the 19 September 1997 one. The one similar to the French one is that at Southall that occured on 24 November 2002 http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2003/e03027.htm and http://www.rssb.co.uk/LEARNING/Documents/Southall%20East%20Junction%20summary.pdf Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: Electric train on January 10, 2014, 22:02:20 The report notes the similarity of this track failure and resulting accident to Southall (2002) and a Danish accident (Farris, 2012), but not Grayrigg (2007). In all cases they observe there were specific technical issues, as well as poor maintenance. I find there drawing a parallel with Southall strange, my recollection was not a track failure, it was Railtrack signaller / route control crossing a freight train from Southall Down West yard across to the UP Relief, which meant crossing over the DN and UP Main and DN Relief in front of a class 1 passenger train which was compounded by the ATP not functioning correctly and the drive "packing his bag" I do think Network Rail are in a much better place than they were at the time of Grayrigg in 2007 I cannot speak for maintenance, in projects the process, procedures and checking that has to be done before, during and after any work is exceedingly onerous. Wrong derailment. That was the 19 September 1997 one. The one similar to the French one is that at Southall that occured on 24 November 2002 http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2003/e03027.htm Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 07, 2014, 08:17:36 The next step in the process following this accident is not the final BEA-TT report, but the release of two reports done for the prosecutors' office. One is the metallurgical examination of the track components, mentioned in the BAA-TT interim report as not finished. The other is an overall report by their own appointed expert engineers. These were both delivered to the prosecutors by June, and some kind of announcement is expected today, as well as publication. However, as is usual it has already been leaked to the press - and no one seems to find this odd.
In this case Le Figaro had the story (http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2014/07/06/01016-20140706ARTFIG00149-accident-de-bretigny-les-experts-judiciaires-pointent-un-etat-de-delabrement-jamais-vu.php). Obviously the purpose of the main report is to allocate blame, and so it is not as studiously neutral in tone as the BAE-TT one. SNCF and RFF have already said they dispute the findings (also an entirely routine part of the legal process). Basically, the report is reported to say the poor state of maintenance was unprecedented, and due to deficiencies throughout the maintenance branch, including training. SNCF point out the inherent contradiction in that - doesn't it mean maintenance is overall good and quite adequate (as the accident record shows)? And just who are these experts anyway? More will appear soon, no doubt. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on July 07, 2014, 22:01:19 To clarify:
Quote A year after the disaster, the conclusions of reports commissioned by the judges in charge of the investigation are instructive for the SNCF and its maintenance procedures. Findings: Rail disaster 12 July 2013 last Bretigny-sur-Orge (Essonne), which killed seven people and wounded thirty, is definitely due to a maintenance problem. It is telling that the railway and metallurgical expertise has procured reports whivh Le Figaro and the prosecutor Evry shall make public on Monday. In these extremely severe reports for the SNCF, sent to judges on June 25, expert engineers (Court of Appeal of Douai) and Pierre Michel Dubernard Henquenet note that "metallurgical examinations were made possible to establish that we are not in the presence of a malicious act, and the process that led to the complete disintegration of the assembly is quite the opposite over several months and involved the entire assembly failing, from which were recorded over 200 anomalies of varying degrees of criticality. Most of these abnormalities were known from the railway company or its agents, but were not adequately remedied. The conclusion of the experts is final and evokes "dilapidation never seen elsewhere." He added: "imfrastructure perished by fatigue, vibration, beat, defects tightening, wear, etc.. Damages relating to the quality of maintenance. " Number 3657 Intercity train consisted of seven cars Reef. There were 385 passengers on board. The train had left the Gare d'Austerlitz to 16 h 53. At 17 h 11, as it prepared to cross Br^tigny station vi platform 1, passengers felt a shock when crossing a double junction crossing . The train derailed and separated into two parts between cars 4 and while traveling at 137 km / h. the authorized speed limit on this road being 150 km / h. Due to the state of the network, the experts appointed by the judges noted in their report that "it would be desirable to limit to 100 km / hour speed trains approaching the station Br^tigny." Inadequate monitoring network It further notes that "current maintenance requirements" for sleepers at double junctions are "inadequate because insufficient." Currently, SNCF dismantles the spliced connections to check every three years because they are classified as "comfort items". Experts advise strongly to dismantle every year to inspect. According to them, the tour audits on channels should lead agents to "the immediate compliance", which is not the case today. The network status Br^tigny "would logically have led the SNCF to increased surveillance, and especially adapted," they write. Experts are clearly involved in the railway maintenance organization: "There is also important to say that the SNCF staff responsible for implementation of track maintenance and equipment should be chosen according to the first criteria for solid training in engineering and in addition have received extensive specialized training. "an allusion to the youth of the agent who made the last inspection tour July 4, 2013, eight days before the accident. It was a railwayman 25, freshly graduated from an engineering school. In February 2013, he became leader of nearby lanes Br^tigny. He framed 19 agents responsible ways to do maintenance on the rail network in the industry. At the last inspection, no abnormality was reported. Abnormalities inadequately considered "The maintenance requirements of the SNCF, complex, difficult to interpret or apply by field workers were not fully met (...). This has led to a lack of consideration and processing of errors encountered; It should be noted in this regard that many observations made during the monitoring tours found themselves carried from one operation to another, sometimes to eventually disappear without us was sure they were treated . "And experts conclude by holding the top three factors that led to the accident by improper maintenance" repositories large maintenance superabundant, sometimes inadequate or contradictory so against-productive. " Finally judicial engineers who conducted the inspection lane January 28 rounds alert on the status of network station of Noisy-le-Sec (Seine-Saint-Denis). They consider disturbing. I speak French, but have used Google Translate for speed, tidied up to make sense for the the first half of the article. I'll translate further, as time allows, but the gist is that it was a Potters Bar incident, down to poor inspection and maintenance. I don't think the report was to allocate blame, the tenor of the report being largely similar to that of a report by the AAIB or RAIB - what happened, why it happened, what should be done to stop it happening again. There is reference to the judicial process, something which would not happen in the UK, although the relevant inspector could be summonsed to the criminal court proceedings, and indeed to any civil proceedings for damages. We do not have Quote les ing^nieurs judiciaires or judicial engineers in the UK, and therefore rely on legal experts to listen to two sides of the argument about what went wrong.We find it common for everyone to blame everyone else at time like this, unlike the days before rail privatisation, when if it wasn't sabotage, it was down to British Rail. France has a similar dilemma, but it ends up as a decision as to which pocket gets dipped to pay for the repairs. J'offre mes condolednces aux familes touch^s par cet accident. C^tait vraiment tragique. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 08, 2014, 09:52:54 SNCF have put their side of the arguments in their "newsroom" (http://www.sncf.com/fr/presse/fil-info/actualites-bretigny-juillet2014-113421) (all in French, obviously).
They do have an obvious problem, both legally and as PR, in that the accident was caused by inadequate maintenance, which they admitted almost immediately. Worse, they identified a lot of similar pointwork in need of renewal, and set up a major programme to do that. In that context, they are trying to resist the conclusions that the whole system (or at least the non-LGV part) has been allowed to deteriorate and hence is, in general, less safe than it ought to be (i.e. "unsafe" in headline terms). The procedure appears to be that the legal opinions ("expertises*") of the "experts*" are only published on paper, made available to the press and maybe waved at a camera in a press conference. SNCF/RFF do not get to see them in advance of publication, so are playing catch-up at this point. They have put some extracts of the latest report on-line, essentially the conclusions. One point worth thinking about in a British context is in the translated version posted yesterday, where it refers to "the maintenance requirements of the SNCF, complex, difficult to interpret or apply by field workers..." Their point is that there is just too much written material about doing maintenance: instructions, working methods, standards, reference documents. They reckon much of it is also not suitable for it purpose, confusing, and contradictory. There was another such expert report in June, just about the state of that specific section of track, that got a lot less attention. It was not mentioned in the BEA-TT interim report, but I think the examination was done together (i.e. this was the prosecutors' report of that examination). BEA-TT's mission is the same as the RAIB's and their reports contain a similar warning not to use them to allocate legal liability. There is another bit of French railway bureaucracy you don't much hear about - the safety authority EPSF (http://www.securite-ferroviaire.fr/) - answering to that part of the ORR. They are credited with the attached little picture, which SNCF quite like (http://ressources.data.sncf.com/explore/dataset/eur-lex-vrn-2013/?tab=metas)as it puts them ahead of the Germans. The head of SNCF has been saying, Rice-Daviesly, that the system is "safe". Worse, the head of RFF said it was the safest in Europe. Given that the picture is based on data to 2012, that seems hard to justify. *Note that expert does not have the same primary meaning in French as in English when used as a noun (it does as an adjective). It means someone asked for advice or an opinion, such as the experts judiciaires in this case, and expertise has the primary meaning of an opinion, legal or otherwise. The English senses of these words are also known too, by leakage. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on July 12, 2014, 16:11:03 Following some passing comments in the latest reports, there is now confirmation (via Mediapart) that previous internal reports into maintenance elsewhere in the Paris region have been pretty poor. Specifically, at and around the Gare du Nord in 2010, an audit noted procedures not followed, the wrong tools, mistakes in rail condition monitoring, inspections not planned and scheduled and sometimes not done at all, among other things.
SNCF have fallen back on "explanations" such as: not following the rules doesn't mean it's unsafe, audits only report deficiencies so what do you expect?, if we got no deficiencies reported then we'd be worried, we started a recovery programme and some things have improved since then, etc. Sound familiar? Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on September 16, 2014, 13:58:07 RFF have been formally "mis ex examen", which is an earlier stage than a formal charge would be here. The offence is "homicides et blessures involontaires", a purely accidental kind of manslaughter, rather than the "mise en danger de la vie d'autrui" - which involves reckless conscious acts - and which some victim groups had been calling for.
The same thing will happen to SNCF on Thursday, though possibly not on the same charge. SNCF infra actually maintains the infrastructure, which RFF only manages. That will change with the the fusion of RFF and SNCF, recently voted by parliament, but not coming into effect until January 2015. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on February 19, 2015, 11:43:48 From 1st January 2015, the old RFF has been transformed into SNCF R^seau. The idea is to integrate ownership and management of rail infrastructure (RFF) with the engineering activity (SNCF Infra), at least while talking to French Socialists. This new entity has to be kept at arms length from the operating divisions of SNCF (SNCF Mobilit^s), at least while talking to European Commissioners.
However, despite well over a year's notice, neither web site yet reflects the new structure any more than the new logo and one paragraph of text on the old rff.fr site, promising a new version. I suspect that there was the predictable tug-of-war between RFF and SNCF Infra about which would take over the other, and RFF lost. The SNCF site does include the report of yesterday's meeting of a new safety oversight committee. This new structure doesn't create any new bodies (unusually), as there already was the EPSF (cf. the safety-related bits of ORR) and BEA-TT (RAIB). It gives SNCF a central r^le in writing rules for the industry. The communiqu^ has been reported in quite different ways (no English reports, that I can see). The headline news is that the starts of a number of big projects are being deferred, notably new LGVs (these would be regional links, mostly), station revamps, and resignalling. This is to permit resources to be shifted to the backlog of renewals work on the "classic" network. In effect, a two-year moratorium on new starts. One TV report this morning (http://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/transports/la-sncf-revoit-ses-mesures-de-securite_828679.html) refers to the Br^tigny-sur-Orge accident, of course, and to a report from the year before on the state of (dis)repair of the network. It suggests that money is the main consideration - a km of new line costs ^15 M against ^1 M for renovation. This AFP report (http://www.lepoint.fr/societe/le-gouvernement-differe-les-nouveaux-projets-ferroviaires-18-02-2015-1906082_23.php) also refers to Br^tigny-sur-Orge, and the survey report done after it - plus another done in 2005 which (it says) had already led SNCF to make maintenance its priority. That does sound odd. It also says the main limited resource is specialist staff, rather than money, citing signals testers in particular - "we can't train them in two or three years, the job takes twenty years of experience"! The following summary of the scale of thus year's renewals programme may be of interest: - a budget of ^2.3 Bn for maintenance and ^2.6 Bn ; - the renewal of 1,000 km of track, 400 items of S&C, and 450 km contact wire ; - the replacement of 788 points, 280,000 sleepers, 15,000 welded track inserts (precautionary against breakages), 3,600 km of catenary as planned renewal and 563 million m^ of vegetation dealt with ; - verification of 37,000 signaling "centres" (not sure what level that represents) in 8 months. Title: France - railway and public transport services and incidents (merged posts) Post by: stuving on April 21, 2015, 12:31:48 From TheLocal.fr (http://www.thelocal.fr/20150421/train-hits-lorry-near-paris-injured)
Quote Eight injured as train hits lorry near Paris Published: 21 Apr 2015 11:37 GMT+02:00 Updated: 21 Apr 2015 11:37 GMT+02:00 UPDATED: A passenger train hit a lorry at a level crossing in the town of Nangis to the south-east of Paris on Tuesday morning, leaving seven people injured, including one seriously. The incident occurred near the train station at Nangis, south east of the capital (see map below), at around 8.45am on Tuesday. The train, which was carrying 350 passengers from Belfort to Paris, crashed into a lorry that had stopped for unknown reasons at a level crossing near the station. The impact was so severe that five carriages of the train were derailed. Firefighters, police, and ambulances were sent to the scene, where seven people were injured - one seriously, said train operator SNCF in a statement. Passengers took to social media to share images images from the crash, which show the train's derailment and debris on a nearby platform. SNCF said that an investigation had been launched to determine exactly what went wrong. Collisions with HGVs in general, and convois exceptionnels in particular, do seem to be a large proportion of level crossing accidents in France. From other reports this lorry was a convoi exceptionnel, and it was apparently not permitted on this road. In this case the train was loco-hauled, so perhaps it came out better than a TER (DMU) would have done. Even so, five carriages were derailed, but the fact that none fell on its side probably accounts for no-one being killed. Title: Re: Another accident at a French level crossing involving a "convoi exceptionnel" Post by: stuving on April 21, 2015, 12:42:28 This French report from La Republique Seine-et-Marne (http://www.larepublique77.fr/2015/04/21/seine-et-marne-plusieurs-blesses-apres-la-collision-entre-un-train-et-un-poids-lourd/) Give far higher figures of 37 injured,three seriously (including the train driver). I'm not sure which is right (latest revised) version. It also has a picture; AFAICS the train split the lorry from its trailer and spun both parts round.
Quote Seine-et-Marne - 37 bless^s dont 3 dans un ^tat s^rieux apr^s la collision entre un train et un poids lourd Un train de voyageurs a percut^ un poids lourd, ce mardi vers 8h45, ^ hauteur du passage en gare de Nangis. Le bilan fait ^tat de 37 bless^s dont trois dans un ^tat s^rieux. 21/04/2015 ^ 13:26 par admin (http://www.larepublique77.fr/files/2015/04/Image-22.jpg) L'accident s'est produit ce mardi matin ^ hauteur du passage ^ niveau de Nangis.Trente-quatre personnes ont ^ l^rement bless^es et deux autres plus gravement, dont le conducteur de la locomotive. Un bilan provisoire important. Un accident entre un train et un poids lourd s^est produit ce mardi 21 avril vers 8 h 40 ^ hauteur du passage ^ niveau de la gare de Nangis. D^apr^s la gendarmerie, 37 personnes ont ^ bless^es dont trois sont dans un ^tat s^rieux. L^une d^elles a ^ h^liport^e vers la Piti^-Salp^tri^re et les deux autres conduites vers l^pital de Provins. Leurs pronostics vitaux ne sont toutefois pas engag^s. Les autres personnes, plus l^rement touch^es sont soign^es sur place. Un important dispositif de secours est actuellement mobilis^ dont un h^licopt^re de la s^curit^ civile. Le choc s^est produit apr^s que le convoi exceptionnel qui transportait des engins agricoles s^est retrouv^ bloqu^ hauteur du passage ^ niveau. Une enqu^te de gendarmerie a ^ ouverte pour comprendre les circonstances de cet accident. D^apr^s les premi^res constations, il pourrait s^agit d^une panne. Le conducteur aurait tent^ de pr^venir les agents SNCF mais le train ^tait d^ engag^. Il s^agit d^un Intercit^ qui faisait la liaisons entre Belfort (90) et Paris. Le train a percut^ la remorque, ce qui a entra^ le d^raillement de sept wagons. Title: France - railway and public transport services and incidents (merged posts) Post by: stuving on August 21, 2015, 20:05:40 SNCF have developed their own version of Sod's law, which is that something always goes wrong on a summer holiday weekend. The weekends in July and August are when the long-distance network is busiest. This year's speciality is fires, as on this Marseille-Paris TGV (train 2916) that burst into flames this afternoon.
Reported (not in English) (http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/un-tgv-marseille-paris-en-feu-pres-de-valence-des-retards-a-prevoir-21-08-2015-5025677.php) with this picture: (http://s3.lprs1.fr/images/2015/08/21/5025677_tgv.png) The last time was on August 2nd (a Sunday) and was nominally an AVE, but still an Alstom-built TGV, run jointly by RENFE and SNCF. This was at Lunel, near Montpellier, on the (scenic) route from Pars to Madrid. (http://images.midilibre.fr/images/2015/08/02/le-feu-est-maitrise-mais-il-n-est-pas-eteint-car-nous_1539535_667x333.jpg?v=1) As you can see that one was on 1500V DC, though as the second one was 25 kV that can't be a big factor. That was on the biggest chass^-crois^ weekend, when the juillettistes going home fight their way past the ao^tiens going to replace them on the beaches. The same day, there was a TGV that hit a heavy farm tractor near Rennes. The tractor crashed through from a field and rolled down into a cutting. Followed by much head-scratching about what you could practically do to prevent that. Then there was that catenary support hit by a car - 17th July, a Friday (reported in this forum) (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15877.msg179388#msg179388). I can vaguely remember at least on other spoiled weekend too. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: Adelante_CCT on August 21, 2015, 22:01:07 And to add to the woes in France:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11817679/France-high-speed-train-shooting-what-we-know-so-far.html Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on August 23, 2015, 20:39:05 And here's another thing ...
Today Montpellier was struck by flash flooding, for the third time in a year (it happened twice in ten days last September). A TGV was derailed by a landslip, which blocked the line from N^mes (and reportedly between Narbonne to Toulouse as well). This is not an LGV - there is a plan to build one which should be starting about now - but it is the main line from the Rhone valley towards Toulouse and Spain, and the main TGV route to Spain. Reportedly (http://www.franceinfo.fr/vie-quotidienne/transports/article/intemperies-le-trafic-sncf-interrompu-dans-la-region-de-montpellier-719461) the passengers were evacuated on another train, as they were stuck in a flooded cutting. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: Red Squirrel on August 23, 2015, 21:29:35 Had me confused for a moment - until I remembered there's another Montpelier somewhere...
Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: plymothian on August 23, 2015, 21:35:46 "The UK railway is shit, they never have these problems abroad..."
Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on August 24, 2015, 12:23:30 Today Montpellier was struck by flash flooding, for the third time in a year (it happened twice in ten days last September). A TGV was derailed by a landslip, which blocked the line from N^mes (and reportedly between Narbonne to Toulouse as well). This is not an LGV - there is a plan to build one which should be starting about now - but it is the main line from the Rhone valley towards Toulouse and Spain, and the main TGV route to Spain. I am impressed that SNCF had the line open initially with one track by 07:00 today, promising full operation later today, since the blockage was at 15:00 yesterday. Incidentally, the storm struck Montpellier at 14:00 - so the rise of water to flood levels was fast. M^o France are reporting a new record rainfall rate of 110 mm/hr. Now that really is heavy rain. Title: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: JayMac on November 14, 2015, 17:15:37 From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34822666):
Quote A high-speed TGV train has derailed near the eastern French city of Strasbourg, killing at least seven people, officials say. The crash happened during a test run in the town of Eckwersheim, on a new Paris-Strasbourg line. Reports say technicians were on board the train and seven people were injured. The injured have been taken to hospital by helicopters. The AFP news agency quotes the Alsace regional prefecture as saying the derailment happened due to "excessive speed". Pictures later showed the locomotive partly submerged in a canal alongside the track. Wreckage was also scattered in a field beside the track. Rescue teams - including divers - are working at the scene. Reports say the Paris-Strasbourg high-speed line is scheduled to open next year. Transport Secretary Alain Vidalies and Ecology Minister Segolene Royal will visit the scene, French media reported. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: TonyK on November 14, 2015, 18:50:30 Later reports say "at least" 10 people have died, from 49 on board. This was a test run on a newly constructed line between Paris and Strasbourg.
Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: broadgage on November 14, 2015, 18:51:12 Very sad :'(
I hope that this is a "normal" railway accident and not related to yesterdays terrorist attacks in Paris. The fact that some form of test or trial was underway, rather than a scheduled passenger service, does suggest an accident perhaps whilst travelling at a greater speed than would be permitted normally. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 14, 2015, 19:04:22 Looking at the aerial picture in this report (https://www.rt.com/news/322054-tgv-train-derails-eckwersheim/), an explanation in terms of "too fast for the curve" looks all to plausible. Whether that means a test run intentionally at higher speed than will be permitted later is another matter; the investigation will tell us that.
The other factor is that the front of the train is reported to have struck the bridge parapet, explaining the violence of the impact and how far the carriages have been thrown sideways. Correction: other reports say the train was going toward Strasbourg, making this a right-hand bend - so most of the train kept going straight on and has jumped across the canal. Inevitably this was not a major news item - there's just too much news today. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 14, 2015, 19:30:58 Inevitably this was not a major news item - there's just too much news today. Indeed: a very sad day in France today. :( As one of our members now says in his footer text: "Je suis un Parisien." :-X Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 14, 2015, 19:54:26 An update, from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34822666):
Quote French TGV high-speed train derails near Strasbourg (http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/5260/production/_86688012_c98e620f-3996-4c4e-99a7-c695400c1ee8.jpg) The locomotive plunged into a canal alongside the track after derailing A high-speed TGV train has derailed near the eastern French city of Strasbourg, killing at least 10 people, officials say. The crash happened during a test run in the town of Eckwersheim, on a new Paris-Strasbourg line. The train was carrying 49 people when it derailed, caught fire, and plunged into a canal. The injured were airlifted to hospital. The derailment was due to "excessive speed", officials say. Pictures showed the locomotive partly submerged. Wreckage was also scattered in a field beside the track. Reports say the Paris-Strasbourg high-speed line is scheduled to open next year. Junior transport minister Alain Vidalies and Ecology Minister Segolene Royal will visit the scene, French media reported. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 14, 2015, 21:10:43 Latest TV report says that in addition to 10 confirmed deaths, there are 12 seriously injured and 5 still missing when the underwater search was suspended for the night. There were 49 aboard, including the families of some railway staff - this run was seen as marking the end of the testing phase. However, it was described doing "elevated speed" tests, and 350 km/hr was quoted but I still find it hard to believe that's possible for this curve (and it came from S^gol^ne Royale, who has a record of mis-speaking).
Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 15, 2015, 19:41:30 An update, from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34827049):
Quote France TGV crash: Children on board derailed train Several children were on board when a high-speed train derailed during a test run in France, killing 11 people, the rail company SNCF has said. Five people are still missing and more than 30 were injured in the TGV crash near the eastern city of Strasbourg. Investigators are trying to determine who the children are and why they were on board when access was meant to be restricted to technicians. It is not clear whether children were among the dead. "That's not a practice that the SNCF recognises," said company chief Guillaume Pepy. "A test train is a test train". SNCF said it was possible that railway workers' children were on board when the train crashed, reportedly at around 350km/h (217mph). Excessive speed has been blamed for the crash, the first fatal accident since TGV trains began operating in 1981. The train ended up partially submerged in a canal under a bridge. (http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/1486F/production/_86697048_86697047.jpg) The train ended up in a canal (http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/181DB/production/_86697789_030132709-1.jpg) It is the first fatal crash involving a TGV in more than three decades (http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/4D43/production/_86697791_030132580-1.jpg) Officials say excessive speed was to blame (http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/9B63/production/_86697793_030132588-1.jpg) Investigators are trying to determine why children were on board Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: TonyK on November 15, 2015, 20:06:53 I read a French report last night, which was more detailed. That suggested that the test crew had taken family members on what was the final test run. It did not say whether or not SNCF had sanctioned this.
Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 15, 2015, 20:58:42 The test phase using this instrumented TGV-Est train started at the end of September and runs to the end of the year, so is only about half-way through. This first part is described as proving the line at increasing speed, from 160 km/hr up to the full train and line speed of 320 km/hr and then 10% higher (352 km/hr; hence the figure of 350 km/hr that has been quoted). The site of the derailment is on a curve with a radius of about 1.3 km and just over 1 km from where it joins the existing "classic" line for the run into Strasbourg.
The five "missing" persons are now believed not to have been on board, so the casualty number is as in that last report: 11 killed and 5 still critically ill in hospital. One of those killed was a child, and their presence has still not been explained. Other reports suggest this kind of "treat" was common practice, though unofficial. If the tests have in fact reached full speed, that might seem to be the end of testing the track for faults - leaving things like the signalling and power supplies, and running over every piece of trackwork in every direction. Incidentally, on the LGV trains run on the left, so this run was in reverse. (Trains in Alsace run on the right, so the junction just ahead has to accommodate this switch.) The investigators (SNCF, BEA-TT and gendarmerie) have recovered the train's data recorders, though presumably the signalling system will know its position and speed. The line is equipped with ETCS/ERTMS, but may not be using it at this stage; it also has the older TVM 430 system. BEA-TT do not usually give the same kind of full statement of facts at the start of an inquiry that RAIB does. However, for serious accidents like this one, SNCF will probably do something similar in a few days, and that should give the actual speed and the limit for this curve. According to le Parisien (http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/deraillement-de-la-rame-d-essai-du-tgv-est-le-bilan-s-alourdit-15-11-2015-5279525.php), citing the no. 2 of SNCF R^seau, the speed limit for this bridge is 176 km/hr. They also quote Guillame Pepy as saying that these tests are run with some of the safety systems turned off. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: Worcester_Passenger on November 16, 2015, 03:20:10 Incidentally, on the LGV trains run on the left, so this run was in reverse. (Trains in Alsace run on the right, so the junction just ahead has to accommodate this switch.) There's a schematic diagram of this flying junction at http://florent.brisou.pagesperso-orange.fr/LGVEE2.pdf (http://florent.brisou.pagesperso-orange.fr/LGVEE2.pdf), down in the bottom right corner. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: Tim on November 16, 2015, 10:02:50 Very Sad. Lets wait until the investigation. My suspicion is that they were doing something that they would not be doing in normal passenger service.
Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: ChrisB on November 16, 2015, 10:08:47 With kids on board.
Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: Tim on November 16, 2015, 10:42:53 With kids on board. I'm not sure what to think about that. Presumably, test trains are not regarded as risky. If they were adults wouldn't be on them either (certainly not 49 of them). Rail engineers are not, in general reckless people and these are supposed to be safe, controlled tests. I don't think that there are categories of tests that have a level of risk that is acceptable for 40 odd adults but unacceptable for the children of those adults. If there is a derailment risk then the test is not safe for anyone to be on board. You can be sure that kids will be banned in future which is a shame because it will prevent parents sharing their pride in their work with their families. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: LiskeardRich on November 16, 2015, 10:55:36 It is known These test trains have been running 10% over speed limits with safety equipment off so as it is possible to run at limit plus 10%. The speed at derailment is not confirmed, but the speed limit at location is 160 kph, so plus 10% 176kph. This was around about the 200th test, and all the previous tests ran successfully at the plus 10%.
The train involved was the French version of our NMT train, what kind of staffing does the NMT run with? The 5 still missing in the above report the BBC are now saying are accounted for and weren't actually on the train, but others may have been due to the "extra guests". Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 16, 2015, 12:23:30 An update on the casualties, supposed to be final apart from four people on the danger list in hospital:
There were 53 people on board, of whom four were minors. Eleven were killed, but none of the children. All of the rest were classed as "injured", either slightly or now in a stable condition. As to the risk of tests, in practice that's a matter of rules. This line was not yet signed off as ready for use, so the rules assume there is a risk that should be assessed technically and revised as tests progress. Only staff needed should be present, just as a standard precaution. SNCF house rules would allow invited guests on trains (not necessarily test trains) once the tests are all done but before all the paperwork is finished. That is reasonable enough, but is likely to be challenged once the lawyers get involved. Normal track measurements can be done on a line open to passenger trains, so the rules for NMT would presumably be those that apply to it as a workplace. This train was a standard TGV with half the carriages refitted with test equipment, so arguably it was not all workplace in that sense. A new train was used as nothing older is built to run at full line speed, and it will presumably be converted back again. I imagine routine track geometry tests will be done with a "normal" test train, as it does not need full speed to do that out of hours. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: Tim on November 16, 2015, 17:07:46 It is known These test trains have been running 10% over speed limits with safety equipment off so as it is possible to run at limit plus 10%. The speed at derailment is not confirmed, but the speed limit at location is 160 kph, so plus 10% 176kph. This was around about the 200th test, and all the previous tests ran successfully at the plus 10%. The train involved was the French version of our NMT train, what kind of staffing does the NMT run with? The 5 still missing in the above report the BBC are now saying are accounted for and weren't actually on the train, but others may have been due to the "extra guests". Thanks for the extra info. Presumably, TGVs in normal use have an automatic system to prevent the train going faster than the permitted line speed. Presumably also, when you do the 10% overspeed test you disable or override that automatic system (or you do it on track before the lineside part of that system is working) . Presumably, that then allows for human error to result in you exceeding the linespeed by more than 10%. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 16, 2015, 17:13:24 Thanks for the extra info. Presumably, TGVs in normal use have an automatic system to prevent the train going faster than the permitted line speed. Presumably also, when you do the 10% overspeed test you disable or override that automatic system (or you do it on track before the lineside part of that system is working) . Presumably, that then allows for human error to result in you exceeding the linespeed by more than 10%. There's several things there we don't know - obviously you can allow a defined overspeed in several ways, only one of which is to not engage either of the safety control systems fitted. The driver survived and has been interviewed, and says he was sticking to the 176 km/hr testing speed limit. But remember, "only" 176 km/hr is still 110 mi/hr, easily enough to smash a train to pieces. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: LiskeardRich on November 16, 2015, 17:27:29 Grayrigg was about 100 mph for a comparison as to a modern train derailment in Britain under similar speeds.
The TGV was running wrong line, Looking on maps and images of the location, the wrong line looks to have a sharper curve than the normal line. The classic and high speed lines run opposite sides, and the location of crash was where two single lines fly over each other from the high speed line to swap onto the classic line to normally get to the opposite side. The driver has been interviewed and claimed he was sticking to the limits set of 176kph. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 16, 2015, 17:34:58 One report I saw said this was the first run on this line in this direction at speed, though I can't see why that would be so important.
SNCF have been saying they can't confirm the actual speed as the gendarmes have the data recorders under lock and key as evidence. I still don't understand why one of the signalling systems wasn't tracking the train, even if it was not enforcing speed limits. The test phase is supposed to test the signalling too. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge, near Paris - multiple Post by: stuving on November 17, 2015, 09:04:57 BEA-TT published their final report on this accident (http://www.bea-tt.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Rapport_BEATT_2013_009-2.pdf) in September. It didn't get much reported, as it doesn't really change anything in the interim report, so I for one missed it at the time.
BEA-TT have a page of brief summaries of their reports in English (http://www.bea-tt.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/railways-technical-investigations-r41.html), but have not added any new ones for several years. In this case RAIB have put a summary in English on line (http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-analysis-and-safety-reporting/2015-10-02-rail-investigation-summary-bretigny.pdf). This emphasises the caveat that investigations for the prosecutor's office are proceeding, and were not all made available for this report. However, there is no obvious sign of a shortage of information, so that is perhaps just the formal position. The story line of how the accident happened is still that a cracked frog on a double slip led to the bolts on a fishplate failing one at a time, until it was free to flip up under a train and jam in a flangeway. This chain of events is reconstructed in great detail by reference to the marks and indentation on the wheels and bogie components. While that might not seem entirely necessary, it was important to make sure that no other cause, even a minor one, contributed to the derailment. The rest of the report looks at the inspection and measurement (by "Mauzin" trains) of this track, whether the faults were detected, and if so why they were not fixed. A lot of this sounds very familiar. A couple of things are missing from the report. One is a clear statement of the impact of the restructuring of SNCF and RFF into a single organisation, which happened betwen the accident and this report. This should be slight, as SNCF did all the actual maintenance work anyway, but surely worth recording. The other is about what led to the 1500V DC power being turned off, and whether that was a fault current due to the accident, and if damaged live wires constituted a danger. This was raised by comments elsewhere, before being commented on in this forum, but is not mentioned in the report. Presumably it was not in fact an issue at all. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on November 17, 2015, 19:54:08 Advance news (in French) on RTL (http://www.rtl.fr/actualites/info/article/accident-de-bretigny-l-enquete-pointe-une-serie-de-dysfonctionnements-7768611306) of the results of the enquiries. The first report is due out tomorrow - I think that's the interim technical report from the BEA-TT. RTL concentrate more on the (leaked) prosecutors' report, which seems to be heading for a criminal prosecution as well as a civil liability case. The news item talks about missing bolts in fishplates that no-one is bothered about, and maintenance that was both random and not thorough enough. The other theme, which is obviously going to have political implications, is the confused relationship between RFF and SNCF, and how this clouds the responsibility for maintenance standards. All sounds rather familiar, doesn't it? Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 18, 2015, 17:13:32 We were half-promised a first statement of facts from SNCF today, but examining the recorders only started this afternoon, so this first statement is now due tomorrow. I'm sure they will also have examined the track.
If you want a wider view of the site and the track, SNCF have made several videos of overflights of the "LGV Est European" while it was being built; there are links in this page (http://www.lgv-est.com/mediatheque/videos/). The earlier ones give a good impression of how much activity, machinery etc. it takes to build the whole line and its structures pretty well at once. The 2013 one even shows the TBM just emerged from the second bore of the Saverne tunnel. The latest, which was done last month and so is this the most relevant, is here (https://youtu.be/EqXKffwDIAE). It flies West-East, so the Vendenheim junction is at the end (and the helicopter was overtaken by the test train, wrong road again, 2 minutes in). Saturday's run was on the right-hand track and derailed just before the canal bridge. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 19, 2015, 14:30:31 We now have that statement from SNCF - and it's quite clear what the cause was: excessive speed. At the point of derailment, the recorded speed was 243 km/hr as against a normal limit of 160 km/hr. For this run, that is described as late braking; 1 km too late. (More later, when I get home.)
Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: JayMac on November 19, 2015, 16:19:54 Is this line left hand running throughout? Reason for asking is that I've read elsewhere that the norm is right hand running in the d^partements that border Germany (Moselle, Alsace?).
Are LGVs left hand running within France regardless? Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 19, 2015, 17:49:46 Is this line left hand running throughout? Reason for asking is that I've read elsewhere that the norm is right hand running in the d^partements that border Germany (Moselle, Alsace?). Are LGVs left hand running within France regardless? Yes, the LGV follows the normal French rule of the road up to the connector at Vendenheim. However, all lines are built and signalled for bidirectional use, hence the need to test them in both directions. The Germans swapped most of the lines in Alsace-Lorraine over to right-hand running very soon after 1870, though the line from Strasbourg down to Basel had always been that way round. When the French came to reintegrate the A-L network with the French in 1918, swapping back would have been expensive, and in operational terms it was never a big issue, so they didn't. A bit later some of the main lines were equipped with grade-separated "leapfrog" crossovers close to the old border, such as the one at Xouaxange near Sarrebourg (and yes - that's a genuine French spelling, barbaric though it looks). At least one line built since then, like the LGV, runs on the left and has a flyover crossing (or two, I think) just before Metz at Frescaty. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 19, 2015, 20:22:42 The press conference today (http://www.sncf.com/fr/Presse/fil-info/deraillement-eckwersheim956874) adds only a little to description of the accident. The initial technical report (http://www.sncf.com/ressources/rapport_denquete_deraillement_rame_dessai_814521_sur_le_raccordement_de_la_lgv_ee_le_14_novembre_2015.pdf) does describe how the train derailed; essentially it toppled over centrifugally on the curve (of only 945 m radius). Calculations give a speed of 220-240 km/hr for this to happen, and that the outer ends of the carriage rake and inner ends of the power cars should lift first. That is what happened, and the coupling at this point broke early on leaving the carriages to run off the track and straight over the canal, on their sides. The rear power car never made it over the canal, and most of the (shared) bogies were eventually ripped off.
The leading power car hit the bridge parapet and ended up in three main parts - the body crossed the bridge, scraping along the parapet/girder, and slid down the bank. The rear bogie destroyed the end of the parapet and was embedded in the end of the girder. The transformer went over the side of the bridge, and its oil burning was the source of the fires visible in the pictures. Given that, it is remarkable that so many people survived, and in particular those in the leading power car. The press conference, and the full statement, list four sets of actions:
Obviously much more investigation is needed - this "immediate" report took only four days - and one area where this is true is this question: who was in the driving cab? The report says there were seven - four drivers and test managers and three others. Both of those numbers are surprising; does it need that many drivers? and doesn't driving a train at over normal line speed on the fastest line in Europe call for undivided attention? The four staff were a driver, a second driver (who was watching), a test manager (also meant to be supervising), and a "pilot" working for Systra (the SNCF/RATP in-house engineering consultancy). Guillaume Pepy's prepared words included a rather oddly-worded section; something about ill-judged behaviour of individuals both in the driving cab and between it and the train. All in all, it's obvious they did know speed was the cause from the start. Probably they wanted to check against the recordings before going public on that. So Pepy's insistence that this could never happen in service because of the train control systems was based on that knowledge, rather than being reassuring hyperbole. His saying the cause was unknown, which looked incompatible with that assurance, was a legal fiction (i.e. we know but need to know what the prosecutors know). Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 19, 2015, 23:33:26 I've found a report that gives some more detail about the distribution of the casualties. I think we can assume that none of those on-board had any kind of seat belt, in which case the protection given by the body shells was pretty good.
Of the eleven people who died, none was in the front power car (and the report said that most of them were standing). That vehicle slid to a halt over 150 m, an average deceleration of 1.5 g, which helps to explain the survival rate. However, it hit the parapet very hard, and turned on its side, so I still think that survival was surprising. Five of those killed were Systra engineering staff, and four worked for SNCF; the other two were outsiders. The highest fatality rate was in the last but one carriage, and from those figures it looks like that was a laboratory vehicle. Sixteen people are still in hospital; two of them are still in a critical state. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 20, 2015, 00:04:16 The five "missing" persons are now believed not to have been on board, so the casualty number is as in that last report: 11 killed and 5 still critically ill in hospital. One of those killed was a child, and their presence has still not been explained. Other reports suggest this kind of "treat" was common practice, though unofficial. An update on the casualties, supposed to be final apart from four people on the danger list in hospital: There were 53 people on board, of whom four were minors. Eleven were killed, but none of the children. All of the rest were classed as "injured", either slightly or now in a stable condition. So, are we now sure that no children were among the dead? :-\ Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 20, 2015, 00:21:21 So, are we now sure that no children were among the dead? :-\ Yes, the figures are now given as definitive. However, the identity of the two still on the danger list has not been made public. You will understand that in this kind of accident, with carriages sliding along on their sides, it was always going to be difficult to count the number of those killed and no longer inside. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: SandTEngineer on November 20, 2015, 10:56:49 I would like to thank Stuving for finding and posting all of the relevant information concerning this very tragic incident.
And just to add a little bit to it, this article has a graph showing the train speeds involved: http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/late-braking-blamed-for-tgv-est-derailment.html?channel=537 Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 20, 2015, 13:02:44 The identity of some of the victims is now known. Of the five Systra staff, four held senior positions either for the trials or for the LGV Est as a whole. The wife of one of those was also killed, as was another female guest of a Systra employee who survived.
One of the four SNCF staff killed was Alain Cuccaroni, director of the LGV Est project for RFF and SNCF R^seau since its construction was approved in 1998. Yesterday's report does contain pictures of the site and the wreckage, much of which can be followed without reading the text. The reason for the high death toll in the last but one carriage is visible in one of the pictures; it went across the canal sideways and hit the far bank upside down. Thanks for the mention, SandTEngineer, obviously I hope it is of interest. In this case it's not just to draw comparisons, which applies in any serious accident - the "could it happen here" question - but also because what would ordinarily be the lead news item, and for several days in France, has been pushed down or out of the running order. "Interesting times" indeed, in the worst possible way. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 22, 2015, 00:03:57 SNCF have posted full English transcript of Thursday's press conference (http://www.sncf.com/ressources/sncf_press_conference_english_version.pdf). I'd add a couple of notes to it:
These SNCF internal auditors are not accountants, they look at safety, project management, and other operational matters. The French Plateforme means the trackbed or formation, but has been unidiomatically translated as platform. Their version of Guillaume Pepy's sentence that I commented on before reads: Quote Finally, it surely reveals errors of human behaviour in the driver's cab and in the communication between the cab and the rest of the trainset, which the investigation will examine. I have read something about the test manager in the driver's cab being distracted by a long conversation on the intercom, though that doesn't sound very serious. Perhaps it was, and we will hear more about it later. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: SandTEngineer on November 22, 2015, 10:31:21 I also found this interesting (actually somewhat alarming):
https://ressources.data.sncf.com/explore/dataset/incidents-securite/?tab=table&sort=date Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on November 22, 2015, 11:26:47 I also found this interesting (actually somewhat alarming): https://ressources.data.sncf.com/explore/dataset/incidents-securite/?tab=table&sort=date I'm inclined to agree, though it's hard to judge how alarming this list of accidents and incidents is without something similar from the British railway network to compare it with. A lot of the incidents are minor, so a total of over 700 during the last year (i.e. 2 per day) may or may not be very high. The fact that more than 30% of them are graded "ESR", meaning there was a potential danger to life, is what I find troubling. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on January 27, 2016, 14:01:20 The criminal investigation of this accident is still going on, and Le Canard Enchain^ is today suggesting that SNCF (now with added RFF) is schooling its staff in what to say to the prosecutors. On the evidence, it's pretty clear that SNCF/RFF are guilty of some kind of manslaughter. If there is still something SNCF fear, it is probably that the current charge (accidentally causing death) is replaced by one of recklessness or wilful causing death.
Is this a shock horror scandal story, or just the French way of doing things? It's hard to say, though some of its features (prosecutors tapping witnesses' phones, the leaking of what should be secret prosecution details to the press) are very French. I can imagine that an employer would want to warn staff about what to expect - along the lines of:
Of course that could easily then go on to rehearsing the "story" and editing its text, which I guess we'd all call manipulation (or perverting of the course of justice, if wearing a suit). SNCF have refused to comment on a story based on leaked documents. Le Canard Enchain^ is resolutely old-fashioned, and its accommodation of the internet age extends just far enough to put a facsimile of its front page on line. This story isn't on the front page, so there's only the like of this second-hand version (http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2016/01/27/le-canard-enchaine-accuse-la-sncf-d-avoir-manipule-l-enquete-sur-la-catastrophe-de-bretigny_4854289_3224.html). Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on January 28, 2016, 00:37:52 I read the French article about the accident, and agree, stuving. This doesn't look like the English way of doing things - a judge bugging the phone calls between an accused person and his company's lawyers? I know that major criminal matters are investigated by a judge in France, but I cannot imagine a Detective Chief Superintendent even asking for an intercept warrant from the Home Secretary in such a case.
As for coaching the witnesses, I can't see much wrong with what was said - "Come with nothing - you should wait for their questions" is probably what every solicitor tells every defendant before any court case. I spent a fair bit of time in courts, mainly magistrates, but Crown on more than a few occasions. I was told by the judge on one such occasion to answer the question, and only the question, telling the court only what I myself knew with certainty, not what I thought everyone knew. Apart from anything else, it saves the court time that could be spent arguing what was and what was not admissible. I had to explain this myself to witnesses in cases I was involved in, and it was nothing untoward. Manipulation of the evidence, or asking someone to give false evidence is another matter, never crossed my mind, and isn't alleged against SNCF. This is a huge case in France, but unless the judicial rules are vastly different to ours, this seems much ado about nothing. I assume that, like here, there is a fine distinction between "dangerous" and "careless" in driving offences, and between "negligent" and "dangerous" actions leading to manslaughter. The difference in sentence can be measured in years. This is before the company's reputation is called into question. I would be surprised if the employees had not been advised by the company's lawyers. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on January 28, 2016, 01:33:12 I read the French article about the article, and agree, stuving. This doesn't look like the English way of doing things - a judge bugging the phone calls between an accused person and his company's lawyers? I know that major criminal matters are investigated by a judge in France, but I cannot imagine a Detective Chief Superintendent even asking for an intercept warrant from the Home Secretary in such a case. Bugging supposedly privileged phone calls with a lawyer is exactly what was done to Sarkozy - but that did smell strongly of political motivation. Examining magistrates still have the power to hold people in custody just for interview, which were almost unlimited before the recent(!) introduction of something like habeas corpus. It is exactly at this initial instruction phase that the French system is so different. It is led by the examining magistrate, who is a judge but on loan to the prosecutor's office (parquet). Normally the leg-work is done by the Police Judiciare but in this case most of that's been done by BEA-TT. So they are nowhere near court yet, and the comparison is with an employer advising staff before a - rather formal - police interview. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on January 28, 2016, 10:04:50 It is exactly at this initial instruction phase that the French system is so different. It is led by the examining magistrate, who is a judge but on loan to the prosecutor's office (parquet). Normally the leg-work is done by the Police Judiciare but in this case most of that's been done by BEA-TT. So they are nowhere near court yet, and the comparison is with an employer advising staff before a - rather formal - police interview. Thanks for the clarification, stuving. We are talking similar to the Interview Under Caution here. I have conducted many of these. Some of those where the suspect was accompanied by a legal representative led to the answer "No comment" to every question except name and date of birth. All perfectly legal, given that I had just told the unfortunate subject of my attentions that he did not have to say anything, slightly frustrating, but I wouldn't be interviewing if I didn't think the evidence merited at least an explanation, and on more than one occasion disadvantageous to the suspect. As it is nowhere near court yet, I can't see what advantage these recorded conversations could give to the prosecution. They remain no more than advice by a lawyer to a client, albeit with a rather fruity turn of phrase on one occasion. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on July 25, 2016, 19:21:58 BEA-TT issued a short interim report (http://www.bea-tt.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Note_Etape_BEATT_2015-16.pdf) (really just a short note) in February, which I didn't spot. It starts with a restatement of the facts based on on-board recordings.
Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on July 25, 2016, 19:25:52 In today's Le Parisien (and Aujourd'hui en France, its provincial version) there is a report (http://www.leparisien.fr/economie/tgv-est-un-essai-a-risque-mene-trois-jours-avant-le-drame-25-07-2016-5992143.php) based on unpublished information from the enquiry (i.e. the customary leak to the press). This says that:
(*French railway tracks are not up or down - they are even or odd. I have no idea why, nor how anyone remembers which is which.) Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 25, 2016, 20:06:32 Thank you for your detailed posts, stuving, and for your helpful and reasoned explanations. :)
My own schoolboy French certainly isn't up to it. ::) Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on October 31, 2016, 12:38:32 Le Parisien / Aujourd'hui en France (http://www.leparisien.fr/economie/tgv-est-des-erreurs-de-calcul-a-l-origine-du-deraillement-31-10-2016-6270525.php) have got hold of an interim judicial (prosecutors') report on this accident, which adds a little more detail to the earlier explanations. The train did brake too late, for a combination of reasons all related to the conduct of these particularly risky overspeed trials.
The correct braking point would have been km 400.2, but the trials plan had decreed km 401 (the initial BEA-TT report said 400.7), and the senior driver overseeing the run changed that to km 402 on the day. Since the speed monitoring and automatic braking systems were turned off, this offhand way of fixing the speeds is the real culprit. They have other examples, such as where earlier runs went faster than specified but no-one bothered to investigate why, and one of those was the previous run over this section. Elsewhere, the speed was worked out based on the dynamic limit (i.e. when the train overturns) rather than the signalling system's limit (which determines speeds in service). Apparently those directly involved on the day are facing prosecution, while SNCF and their trials subsidiary Systra may do too. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on May 27, 2017, 13:58:48 BEA-TT has published the final report (http://www.bea-tt.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/rapport-final-r256.html) on the accident to a TGV test train on 14th November 2015 at Eckwersheim. BEA-TT don't seem to do English summaries of their reports any more, even for those important ones that would justify it.
So far there has only been a short note from BEA-TT, and some longer reports from SNCF. However, the narrative of the accident has appeared in various leaks to the press, reported above. The final report tells the same story, though in much more detail. The recommendations look rather anodyne, and in measured language that I find hard to translate exacltly. Most of them produce the response "you mean they really weren't doing that?". Roughly, they are: Recommendation R1 (SNCF Réseau and EPSF - the rail safety body) Conclude the review of the documents and regulations that govern proving trials for new high-speed lines, including the UIC in this. Recommendation R3 (SNCF Mobilités, and any other train operators involved) To provide drivers for test trains, set up a process to select and suitably train them. Recommendation R4 (SNCF Mobilités, and any other train operators involved) Provide tools to support trials teams planning braking. [For overspeed tests - remember the KVB and equivalent train protection systems were disabled for this.] Give a clear definition of who does what in conducting the test runs, with respect to driving the train. Recommendation R5 (Systra, and any other potential trials managers) Review the reference documents for trials conduct based on what has been learnt from this accident, in particular to ensure:
Recommendation R6 (SNCF Mobilités, and any other train operators involved) Install recorders for any telephone link between the drivers' cab and the trials team, and for sounds within the cab. How the driving function is shared among the on-board team was important in the accident. It is also very much based on the SNCF way of doing things, and not likely to match anyone else's. The functions and names of the four key actors perhaps need a bit of explaining. 1. The Chef d'essais bord (my manager of the trial) is in charge on the train. Back at the office, during planing and similar work, he will be part of a team, but during the trial he's in the cab and is The Boss. 2. The Cadre Transport Traction (my driver manager) directs the driver, based on the agreed "script", and is responsible for safety on board and during planning. 3. The pilote traction (my "pilot") provides detailed knowledge of the line, its speed restrictions, etc. On board he monitors whether driving actions happen in the right place, and watches for signals. He can also direct the driver. 4. The conducteur (driver) drives the train, watching the line and the instruments, but not needing to read the script and think about trials issues as well. 5. There is also a chef de train (train manager) who looks after the doors, and whom to allow into the train and where, as directed by the manager of the trial. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on October 30, 2017, 20:10:56 According to reports today (initially from F3 Grand-Est (http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/grand-est/alsace/exclu-accident-mortel-du-tgv-eckwersheim-sncf-societe-systra-reconnues-responsables-1356895.html)) the enquête judiciaire has been finished, and the prosecutors' office has told the families of the results. While the specific details quoted look a bit garbled (they don't tally with the BEA-TT report), the key point is that both SNCF and Systra are almost certain to be prosecuted. That is hardly a surprise, given their lack of clear direction from above. Three employees of the two companies have already been charged with something answering to manslaughter.
Title: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: SandTEngineer on December 14, 2017, 17:23:39 https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/892396/School-bus-crash-train-TER-Millas-crossing-injured-children-police-France
Sounds quite serious and distressing. The level crossing appears to be an AHB. Quote FOUR children have been killed and at least 19 people are 'seriously injured' after school bus was "cut in two" when it was hit by a train this afternoon. The vehicle, which was traveling between Perpignan and Villefranche-de-Conflent, is believed to have entered a level crossing at Los Palaus in Millas, France, while the barriers were down before being hit from behind by the regional TER train. Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: ChrisB on December 14, 2017, 18:05:50 Photo on BBC News of the bus showed it seriously damaged but appsrently intact. Sad incident, of which France seems to get more than average just lately
Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on December 14, 2017, 18:50:08 Photo on BBC News of the bus showed it seriously damaged but appsrently intact. Sad incident, of which France seems to get more than average just lately This does sound all too much like a repeat of Allinges in 2008 (earlier posts here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12589.msg135332#msg135332) and here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12589.msg187657#msg187657)). In that case there was an obvious issue with the crossing, which was on a slope and a bend and hard to get a bus over without stranding. In this case the crossing is flat, in open level ground on a straight road. However, there is a turning on each side - 17 m away in one case. So for the traffic to be blocked is not so unlikely, though of course the standard rules for level crossings should cope with that. Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on December 14, 2017, 20:28:17 The reports are still rather contradictory about how such a thing happened, but presumably it will become clear once the driver has been interviewed. Everyone has now been rescued from the train, though that took some time as a crane was needed to move wreckage to get access. A few details I can find out:
Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: SandTEngineer on December 14, 2017, 21:05:44 Photo on BBC News of the bus showed it seriously damaged but appsrently intact. Sad incident, of which France seems to get more than average just lately I don't think so. The photographs clearly (unfortunately) show the bus cut into two. This photograph from the SUN https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/nintchdbpict000373203598.jpg?strip=all&w=870 (https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/nintchdbpict000373203598.jpg?strip=all&w=870) Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on December 15, 2017, 11:06:00 There are now, sadly, two more deaths reported - two 11-year old girls. Since ten are still critically ill, the total of six deaths is likely to rise further. The bus driver is too badly injured to have been interviewed, but there was a second bus right behind it. That driver presumably has been interviewed, as has the train driver. No doubt both are suffering greatly from what they have seen happen.
There is a load of rather pointless speculation about the operation of the crossing, based on a picture from just after the accident showing the relevant barrier raised and intact. Obviously that rules out some possibilities, but note that the barrier is 5 m from the track centre and a bus is about 12 m long. SNCF are limiting themselves to saying what was recorded by their signalling based on detection of the crossing systems: that it worked correctly. I have heard nothing of front-view CCTV from the train - maybe they don't have it. (I've not even seen what type of train it was.) Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 15, 2017, 11:58:05 From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42358075):
Quote France Millas train crash: Children killed as bus cut in two A train and a school bus have collided near Perpignan in southern France, leaving at least six children dead. Eighteen people were injured, some of them critically, after the crash on a level crossing between Millas and Saint-Féliu-d'Amont. The bus had picked up pupils from a nearby secondary school before it was hit by a train travelling at about 80km/h (50mph). Pictures from the scene showed the bus split in two by the force of the crash. Train operator SNCF said witnesses had reported seeing the barriers at the level crossing down at the time of the collision, although that was not confirmed. The bus, which had left the Christian Bourquin College in Millas, was on the crossing when it was hit by the train, which was travelling from Perpignan. Visibility was described as good. Four children died at the scene on Thursday. Two 11-year-old girls succumbed to their injuries on Friday morning. A witness who was on the train told local news website l'Indépendant that "it was a very violent crash - it seemed as if the train would derail". Some 30 people were on the regional train at the time. (https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/24E1/production/_99214490_hi043593015.jpg) Pictures from the scene showed the school bus sheared in two Investigators are waiting to interview the driver of the bus. She was slightly injured in the crash. The train driver also escaped serous injury. Carole Delga, president of the Occitanie regional council, said the level crossing appeared to be in very good condition and had been upgraded recently. "The level crossing was very visible," she said. SNCF said it had an automatic barrier with standard signals and was not considered particularly dangerous. But the grandmother of an injured 11-year-old girl who had been on the bus told a very different story. The girl said the barrier had not come down but remained raised. "The red lights that normally flash did not come on," she said. "The (bus) driver went through and stopped half way, and that's where the train crashed into it." Rail operator SNCF has modernised level crossings across France in recent years, following numerous accidents, the BBC's Chris Bockman reports from Toulouse. (https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/16513/production/_99211419_perpignan_crash_640_v2-nc.png) More than 150 emergency workers and four helicopters were deployed as part of the rescue effort. Transport Minister Elisabeth Borne called the crash a "terrible accident" and Education Minister Jean-Michel Blanquer was due to visit a counselling centre set up at the Christian Bourquin College on Friday. A statement from the education minister's office said he would visit "to support students, families, teachers and the entire educational community". In a tweet, French President Emmanuel Macron offered his condolences: "All my thoughts for the victims of this terrible accident involving a school bus, as well as their families. The state is fully mobilised to help them." Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on December 15, 2017, 12:31:38 It now seems that the earlier report of two further deaths was not correct. Its source was not actually official, and the prefecture now says the total is still four.
And that second bus, similarly, was more likely in front and not behind. I saw only one source that said it was following, and for it to have crossed first makes a lot more sense of the events. Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on December 15, 2017, 19:02:42 The current state of the enquiry was given in a press conference, by the head prosecutor, this afternoon. This started with the official death toll having risen to five.
He gave some information about witness statements, while warning that it was incomplete and contradictory. The main item was that of 14 witnesses interviewed, most said the barriers were down. That led to his being cross-examined by the journos to reveal what that means - which of course he can't say. Why is it the press have this fixed world-view that someone official must know everything and is just being secretive? He got rather irritated by this, unsurprisingly. Of course the question is not was the barrier down, but did it come down and exactly when relative to the bus and train passing. The bus driver hasn't spoken to the gendarmes, but did to her boss last night. He gave a version of her story, followed by accusing SNCF of blaming her (which I don't think they did, except by implication by not admitting their fault), saying that unlike them he would wait for the results of the enquiry, but added "at which time I hope SNCF will accept their responsibility". Not helpful, really. It now appears there were at least three buses, one of which was following and "provided assistance". However, if they weren't close they won't provide evidence of the events. As often in this kind of case, all of those in that bus (including the driver) came from the one village of Saint-Féliu-d'Avall. There were two train drivers, in fact, a trainee and supervisor. The prosecutor gave the speed as 75 km/hr where the limit is 100, and that they had possession of the bande graphique. This appears to be from a kind of souped-up tachograph, which draws a line for the speed vs time, and also marks all on-board bells, buzzers, etc. that derive from signals. But electromechanical, rather than a modern OTDR/OTMR, and given the implied age of the train CCTV should not be expected. Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on December 15, 2017, 19:51:25 This railway line, from Le Soler on the edge of Perpignan to Villefranche-de-Conflent, is overhead electrified, which may seem odd given how Pyrenean it is. It has a rather odd history.
In 1912 it was used as an electrification test-bed by the Compagnie du Midi, who chose the German system of 12 kV 16.67 Hz. Before this was spread wider (there was this war ...) central government chose 1500 V DC, leaving this line as a little electric island. It was kept going until 1971 with original rolling stock, by then 60 year old. If any forum members were scouring Europe for such quaint ancient trains at the time you may have been to see it. After a spell of diesel power, the OLE was adapted for 1500 V in 1984 (allegedly on the cheap) and it probably still has the trains it was equipped with then. The line out to Le Soler was rebuilt for the LGV over to Figueras, but still using 1500 V. Incidentally, the line from Villefranche-Vernet-Les-Bains (its official name) onward to Latour-de-Carol - "le train jaune" - is one of those scary French mountain railways with 850 V third rail. Some of the line is fenced, and some of the third rail has planks both side, but some of it is ... pretty naked. Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on December 16, 2017, 14:43:16 Despite last night's official summary of witness statements, I'm beginning to wonder about this level crossing. There's just too many locals being quoted as saying it was not working properly, not just going back over years but in the last few days. Even allowing for the quotes being gathered by uncritical reporters and then passed through the 24-hour news echo chamber, so they mostly contradict themselves as well as each other, this crossing clearly was not good reliable kit. And SNCF have yet to issue anything other than non-committal holding statements.
The crossing should fail safe, at least in principle. So reports of the barriers staying down for long periods, staff taking ages to intervene, or trains passing very slowly, do not in themselves represent dangers. However, it is still not clear how closely the machinery was monitored, and how rapid any response to a failure would be. I see two issues here. One is a failure of the barriers and lights at just the wrong instant, with a train seconds away. The other is the loss of confidence of road users if the barriers are down for long periods with no staff presence, especially if that happens often. It's all very well to say "turn round an go another way" - there are a lot of other level crossings nearby - but a bus can't do that, even without a load of impatient teenagers in the back. The railway has an absolute duty to protect road users by warning them and closing the crossing when needed. They also have a more general duty not to obstruct the road for no good reason. I imagine that in France that is spelled out more clearly than it is here. Time, and the investigators, will tell. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on December 19, 2017, 20:32:44 As expected, Systra has been mis en examen (roughly charged) and SNCF is expected to follow in a few days. That allows for formal questioning, though how cautioning works with a company I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on December 19, 2017, 20:41:51 You may have seen that the death toll has sadly risen to six.
After a day spent with a bus, recreating the events of the accident, it was announced tonight that "traces" had been found on the side of original bus, which suggest at least the possibility of it pushing past the barrier lowered. The driver has been placed under arrest in hospital. But there is still great confusion (conveyed in the prosecutor's news releases) about the relative timing of the bus crossing and the crossing lights and barrier operating. Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 19, 2017, 21:15:03 You may have seen that the death toll has sadly risen to six. Thank you for your update, stuving. I have, with much sadness, now amended the topic heading. :( Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on January 19, 2018, 18:54:36 There was a little flurry of press coverage of this event one month, after, but without anything new to report. Then today we get the traditional leak from the official (criminal) enquiry, of witness statements (obtained by francetvinfo: (https://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/accident/accident-de-car-dans-les-pyrenees-orientales/collision-de-millas-un-debut-d-enquete-et-des-temoignages-accablants-pour-la-conductrice-du-bus_2568469.html)).
These include, notably, those best placed to see - the train driver and trainee, driver and passenger of the van first in the queue the other side of the crossing, and two children in the bus right at the front. All agree that the bus (now stated as the first of three) drove through the lowered barrier. The bus driver was interviewed three times by the juges, but not since being charged, and is still in hospital (psychiatric, as I understand it). Her story is quite different, of course. There was also an SMS on her phone recorded as arriving a few seconds before the impact, though never opened for reading. That should not be an issue, indeed it is probably a common occurrence. I'm not sure those revelations will stop people jumping to take sides - but I doubt it. The driver has had a lot of support locally (she lives in the same village as all the kids on the bus), with a lot of those signing a petition coming from outside too. Plus there are those who assumed SNCF were to blame for a variety for reasons (unconnected with this event). Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: SandTEngineer on January 19, 2018, 21:07:50 Thanks for posting that update, Stuving. A very sad and distressing incident. I wonder if the level crossing has an event recorder (data logger)? Not seen one mentioned in the reports you have linked to so far.
Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on January 20, 2018, 23:02:51 Thanks for posting that update, Stuving. A very sad and distressing incident. I wonder if the level crossing has an event recorder (data logger)? Not seen one mentioned in the reports you have linked to so far. Initially, I understood SNCF's comments on whether the level crossing operated properly to be based on recorded remote monitoring. However, I have not seen any clear statement of that; just references to what witnesses said. My assumption was based on the notion that keeping the crossing safe needs remote monitoring, at least of its power supply (including backup batteries, since there are press reports of thefts of those). Otherwise how can train drivers be told to proceed at caution? The level crossing closure is triggered by the train at a treadle, as is its opening. I can't fathom quite how these are positioned, given the number of crossings, often close to stations. For example, on leaving Millas (where all trains stop) there is a crossing after 150 m, then the site of the accident after a further 740 m. The train, by the way, was Z 7369 - a 2-car EMU built in 1980-1984 by Francorail-ANF (now Bombardier). I also went searching for any safety-related text, e.g. a report or regulation, about on-board video recorders. I found none! The line's signalling is very French - you might not recognise it as signalled at all. Information on this single track line is contradictory, but it's most likely to be CT (cantonnement téléphonique) updated to CAPI-95 (Cantonnement assisté par informatique). That means each block has a control point at each end (almost always a station), with a single signal controlling access to the block, and also interlocked with the points exiting a passing loop. Here, there is no loop from the junction at Le Soler to Ille-sur-Tet, and as I can see no signals I assume this is one block of nearly 20 km. The operators (probably chefs de gare) exchange messages to request the block, notify that a train has entered it, and confirm all of it has left at the other end. CT has just a telephone link, and a log book to record events, while CAPI has screens for the operators and a datalink, and records all transactions automatically. It (as CAPI-95, an update) also has a train detector that replaces the human eyeball component, and can stop a train entering without permission. The signals are not interlocked with CAPI! So while you might expect some remote monitoring, most likely at the next station, it doesn't look as if there is any system that would record it. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on July 27, 2018, 19:25:17 This year, it's a holiday weekend, and it's back to fires again. OK, strictly speaking next weekend is the one with the big bad traffic jams, but this one is also rather too warm for spending hours in stations or packed trains. And the fire was in a big grid transformer on the Paris ring, not a railway one, but still very effective at closing the gare de Paris Montparnasse (again).
From Channel News Asia (!) (https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/fire-blocks-major-paris-station-at-height-of-holiday-exodus-10569284) Quote Fire blocks major Paris station at height of holiday exodus (https://www.channelnewsasia.com/image/10569310/16x9/670/377/331c34b439af5eaec978b167b84670b7/fW/paris-fire-1.jpg) Firefighters try to extinguish a fire of an electric transformer in Issy-les-Moulineaux, west of Paris, on Jul 27, 2018. (Photo: AFP /Stephane Delfour) PARIS: A major fire in the Paris suburbs paralysed traffic in and out of the city's Montparnasse train station on Friday (Jul 27), just as thousands of French and foreign travellers head on their holidays this weekend. The fire at an electrical centre run by the national transport network in Issy-les-Moulineaux, southwest of Paris, sent a massive plume of smoke rising into the skies. The blaze, just next door to Microsoft's main French offices, prompted an evacuation of 2,500 people and caused a power cut to some 16,000 homes in the Paris suburbs, authorities said. The fire shut down traffic just before noon at Montparnasse, the main station connecting Paris to west and southwest France, with rail operator SNCF warning of heavy disruption for the rest of the day. ... Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: Red Squirrel on July 28, 2018, 10:37:52 Quote The blaze, just next door to Microsoft's main French offices, prompted an evacuation of 2,500 people and caused a power cut to some 16,000 homes in the Paris suburbs, authorities said. ... They should have tried switching it of and then switching it back on again... Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on July 28, 2018, 20:26:35 Quote The blaze, just next door to Microsoft's main French offices, prompted an evacuation of 2,500 people and caused a power cut to some 16,000 homes in the Paris suburbs, authorities said. ... They should have tried switching it of and then switching it back on again... In SNCF's case, they seem to have had enough of getting the blame for whatever goes wrong. Since this time it's clearly RTE's fault - it was their transformer fire, and their substation and cables in a tunnel that were destroyed - so they are talking aloud about claiming millions in compensation. The story is that this was a 225/63 kV substation, and as well as one transformer going up (presumably of a pair), it took with it a load of switchgear and thirty 63 kV cables leading out to its loads. It is well over 2 km to the nearest point on the Montparnasse line, and may be a lot further to wherever the feed is. RTE say the best they can do is to run temporary cables around the burnt-out section, at the earliest by Thursday. In the mean time, SNCF do obviously have a back-up feed, but only at half power. Worse, they have no non-traction power to their local depot for Montparnasse, so can't prepare trains there. So from tomorrow they are limited to around half the number of trains they would run (on a very busy holiday weekend). As usual there are politicos and journos complaining that they never imagined their electricity supply might actually fail and not come back on in a few minutes. I did hear that this kind of failure of a non-duplicated bit of the grid last happened thirty years ago - which sounds plausible. 55,000 domestic users also lost supply, and after 24 hours 7,000 were still off but due to be reconnected by the second evening. And ... yesterday evening Gare de l'Est lost traction power for an hour due to a train fault. And Gare du Nord suffered similarly due to lightning, there being a lot of that plus pretty serious storms over Paris. That train's fault might well have been lightning-induced, I think, but the fire was too early for that to be likely. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on August 25, 2018, 12:48:04 Here we go again, on the last big holiday-travel weekend this summer ... but this time not in Paris. Yesterday the second unit of a TGV derailed coming into Marseille Saint-Charles. Several tracks in the throat are still blocked, and will be into tomorrow (Sunday), but nine platforms out of 16 are still accessible. (English story from RFI. (http://en.rfi.fr/20180825-rail-traffic-disrupted-after-train-derailed-marseille/))
Priority to use that capacity is being given to TGVs, it being such a busy time for going home. It's a "through terminus" like Swansea, and can be by-passed, and is by some trains. TERs can terminate at one of the other city stations, though services have been reduced. Recovery will not start until tonight, as they are still bringing in heavy kit, looking, and no doubt scratching heads. The last seven carriages plus power car need re-railing - evidently the bogies were given a free choice of track and no consensus emerged (rather like that HST at Laira). Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: IndustryInsider on August 25, 2018, 13:00:28 Thanks for continuing ‘coverage’ of such events in France, Stuving. Without you, unless we did the research ourselves, we might be led into thinking such events only ever occur in the UK.
Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on August 25, 2018, 13:45:01 Thanks for continuing ‘coverage’ of such events in France, Stuving. Without you, unless we did the research ourselves, we might be led into thinking such events only ever occur in the UK. Thank you for that. As an aside, while quickly visiting a point (a long way) vertically above Marseille for that post, I noticed that the roundhouse next to MSC station had, since last year, lost its track and turntable and the tiles off its roof. So, is it being demolished? Looking this up (having paused only to look up he French for roundhouse) it turns out it's not being entirely demolished. That was proposed by SNCF in 2014, but refused by the city at planning. The building is now being restored, and will be used for garaging and light maintenance of smaller rolling stock (TERs). How that fits into a round building I can't imagine, but it sounds like it will survive only as a bit of a large new building. The turntable has been scrapped - but then big ones are very hard to move. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on August 28, 2018, 10:16:24 SNCF finished removing the derailed train during the night of Sunday/Monday. There are several reasons why it took well over two days, despite being urgent, not just that it involved eight vehicles and happened on a platform line so access was largely from one side. It was a duplex (double-deck) train, so big and top-heavy, and the shared bogies present a more difficult lifting job, and also prevent each carriage being removed once rerailed to give access to the end of the next.
Repairing the track is predicted to finish by Friday, and until then disruption will continue. TGVs are all running, though the ones to Nice/Toulon are using Marseille Blancarde instead of Saint-Charles. TERs are significantly reduced, to a peak-only service in some cases, though part of that is due to closures for engineering work (common in August). So while the shared bogie deign is good for safety, making it almost impossible for carriages to overturn, it does have its drawbacks. Title: SNCF - Driverless Trains by 2023? Post by: Lee on September 13, 2018, 09:12:38 stuving - I see your high speed rail riposte, and raise you...a bunch of driverless trains!
From DW: (https://www.dw.com/en/frances-sncf-rail-network-plans-driverless-trains-by-2023/a-45468235) Quote from: DW France's SNCF rail network plans driverless trains by 2023 Germany's Bosch engineering company is part of the consortia developing driverless freight and passenger trains over the next five years. The project is part of the modernizing drive for the French state railway. French state railway concern SNCF announced the project for mainline, long-distance trains which is to be financed by the SNCF, the French state and commercial partners. French cities, including Paris, already have driverless metro trains. The €57 million ($66 million) first phase of the development is divided into two consortia: A prototype for driverless freight trains which includes the commercial Alstom, Altran, Hitachi-Ansaldo and Apsys (Airbus) companies A passenger train prototype for regional TER routes which will be developed in partnership with Bombardier, Bosch, Spirops and Thales. SNCF said it is in discussions with Deutsche Bahn to promote a European standard for driverless trains. Director of the autonomous train project Luc Laroche said: "These human and technological issues are considerable ones. We are mobilizing the collective intelligence, competence and savoir-faire of our partners from the varied world of industry." "These partners constitute a world first for ambition, approach and combined skills," Laroche said. Read more: French Senate approves SNCF overhaul, cementing Emmanuel Macron's rail reforms President of Bosch France, Heiko Carrie said "As a provider of leading mobility solutions, the Bosch Group is pleased to be part of this consortium and to be able to contribute, thanks to its technology, to this important new step towards autonomous trains." Major changes for SNCF In its statement, the SNCF said the benefits of autonomized trains for passengers and for freight clients would be greater capacity, better circulation of trains and improved timekeeping. It also said the trains would use less energy and therefore have ecological benefits. "The digital transformation of the network and signal system will make it possible for more and better trains to circulate," SNCF Network President Patrick Jeantet said. "It is essential to develop autonomous trains. It will make us a champion of digital industry." SNCF has 17,000 trains and transports 4 million passengers every day. It is currently running an annual deficit of €3 billion and attempts to change working practices have been met with a series of strikes by many of its 146,800 employees. Earlier this year, Finance Minister Bruno le Maire said: "For 30 years we have shied away from making the necessary transformation of SNCF and for 30 years we've seen the service deteriorate... We can't go on like this. We're going into the wall." The current annual government subsidy to SNCF is €14 billion. The plan is to roll out the first semi-autonomous trains by 2020 and completely-autonomous trains by 2023. Or if you prefer, The Guardian: (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/12/sncf-to-launch-driverless-trains-in-mainland-france-by-2023) Quote from: The Guardian France’s national railway operator SNCF has announced plans to introduce prototypes of driverless mainline trains for passengers and freight by 2023. “With autonomous trains, all the trains will run in a harmonized way and at the same speed,” SNCF chairman Guillaume Pepy said. “The train system will become more fluid.” The operator hopes the switch will allow it to run more trains on France’s busiest main lines, and cut energy consumption. Many French cities, including Paris, already run driverless metro trains but driverless long-distance travel presents a new set of challenges, Pepy said. “Railways are an open system, and the unexpected is the rule,” he said. SNCF will be partnering up with rolling stock specialists Alstom and Bombardier who will be heading up consortia for freight and passenger traffic, respectively. Pierre Izard, who runs SNCF’s rail technologies division, said the shift to driverless trains was to happen in stages, “up to the most extreme of automatisation, when there is no human presence onboard”. Pepy said autonomous trains were “clearly the future”, but he added it may take time before passengers accept boarding them. Although Australia, China and Japan are already experimenting with driverless trains, France is not coming too late to the game, said Carole Desnost, head of innovation at SNCF. The French rail operator said it was talking to German operator Deutsche Bahn about promoting a European standard for driverless trains. Title: Re: SNCF - Driverless Trains by 2023? Post by: TaplowGreen on September 14, 2018, 06:37:05 It's not a new thing in the UK. GWR have scores of driverless trains, mostly on Sundays.
Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on October 05, 2018, 09:57:25 Le Parisien is reporting (http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/millas-la-responsabilite-de-la-conductrice-du-car-de-plus-en-plus-engagee-04-10-2018-7911402.php) what's in a report (expertises techniques) prepared for the juge d’instruction, which is a leak not a publication. As we perhaps expected, the evidence all points to the barrier being down in time but coach driver having braked too late to stop before it.
The report is really a collection of separate experts' analyses of the evidence, including witness statements, but the one called "automobile" uses the full detail of the bus's tachograph. That shows that "after her delicate manoeuvre onto the D612, and having accelerated to 12 km/hr, the driver became aware of an obstacle in front of her and stamped on the brake pedal. The only possible obstruction at that point is the barrier of crossing PN25. By the time she had decided to brake, the coach was already too close to the closed barrier to stop before it, and it went onto the railway line bending the barrier out of the way." (Remember, it is only 17 m from that junction to the crossing.) The main subject of comments is now the medicines the driver was taking, in particular hypnotics. (No English report so far.) Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on January 10, 2019, 13:54:53 Le Parisen reported this morning that one of the three SNCF (then RFF) employees implicated in the case, and previously "witnesses under caution", has been mis en examen - charged with a criminal offence, roughly. The prosecutors' office at Evry has confirmed only that step about an unnamed SNCF employee.
The newspaper report says more, that it was the local track maintenance manager (the other two being his direct reports). He did the last inspection before the accident, and the independent engineering reports said (based largely on the state of the fracture surfaces) that the relevant trackwork damage was present at that time. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on February 18, 2019, 20:25:43 Today's not quite a peak travel holiday - that was last Saturday and next too (for winter sports) - but there was a demonstration from SNCF of what happens when an overhead wire goes ping on your busiest high-speed line (Paris-Lyon). The answer, of course, is that having cancelled as many trains as possible, the rest (enough for the number of passengers) have to squeeze onto the surrounding "classic" network. This is 1500V DC territory, but being on half power isn't likely to matter given the lower line speeds anyway. Typical delays on these trains, between Paris and all points south of Lyon, have been 3-4 hours.
Repair work started at 13:00, but rather than keep both tracks closed for a full repair they chose to reopen the intact one for alternating one-way use and will rewire the other one tonight. Obviously the longer-distance services thin out from late afternoon, helping with recovery, but arrivals in Paris are still very delayed. SNCF are warning of further disruption tomorrow, presumably due to out-of-place stock and out-of-hours staff. I guess much the same would happen anywhere. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on June 29, 2019, 20:22:18 The canicules are out early this year, so ... there are delays due to precautionary measures for hot rails and the like. SNCF also have a problem with droopy catenaries, which is a bit odd - I've not heard of it as a significant issue here. It arises with gravity tensioners, where the weight hits the ground and tension is lost. there has been a programme of modifications; presumably one more turn of wire round the pulleys and a bigger weight. But obviously there are still some places to do.
So, about Thursday night. An intercités train Paris-Bercy to Clermont-Ferrand was delayed for more than two hours by an attempted suicide, and finally set off at around 9 pm. At 22:00, near Montargis, it stopped for want of juice, and obviously the chillers went off. Initial reports from passengers said they were left alone with no food, water, or other help for hours; when rescued by another train it stopped everywhere and then finally arrived the next morning 11 hours late. Reports of the trouble said the wire broke and that it melted, and it wasn't clear if the heat was a factor. The rescue train was delayed because the other track was closed for works, and had to be de-possessed. SNCF's story was different, saying that water and food were supplied by the local rescue services and the stranded were picked up as soon as possible. Today, as part of an apology, they add that driver error at a point of voltage change, combined with slack wires, was the cause. I'm not sure that's a whole lot clearer. They also say they have stopped selling TGV and Intercités tickets to allow for train cancellations. There is a voltage boundary near Conflans-sur-Loing, a few km south of Montargis. Oddly, it's from 1500V DC to 25 kV AC (which is newer OLE) when going south. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: IndustryInsider on June 29, 2019, 22:58:29 Thanks, Stuving. As usual we would probably not of heard about this latest incident on the foreign railway network had you not alerted us to it.
Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on July 02, 2019, 13:12:40 Last night there was even an overnight TGV: Paris to Grenoble, 11 hours late. It spent the night at Lyon-Saint-Exupéry (so it does have a use!), and even then couldn't use the direct route. While that's due to reopen today, the Chambéry-Grenoble line (and other minor ones) will take several days to clear.
All due to trees felled by last night's storm, which was apparently quite spectacular - there was even a near-shipwreck on Lake Annecy. So most people have been have been understanding of SNCF's problems, with the obvious exception of the passengers involved. Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on July 02, 2019, 22:34:40 The BEA-TT report into the Millas accident (http://www.bea-tt.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/millas-r264.html) was released on 17th May. I'm surprised to have missed it then, but looking back it got surprisingly little mainstream media coverage, for such a high-profile incident. It is the usual highly detailed, technical, dispassionate, document providing an interpretation of the events as close to the truth as is possible. maybe that's just not what news is made of.
My summary of the report has got a bit long - it'll be the next post - but these are the key points from the report's introduction:
The factors found to have played a role include:
Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on July 02, 2019, 22:39:23 More on that BEA-TT report:
There were always just two possible narratives: either the school bus (really a coach) drove through the barrier after it came down, or the crossing wasn't closed when it should have been. The driver's conviction that the crossing was open, combined with the (sometimes noisy) support from her neighbours, never looked like good evidence given how traumatic her experience had been. The driver and passenger in the light van waiting at the barrier on the other carriageway had a much clearer view and said all along that the crossing close sequence happened just as it should and the coach did drive through the barrier. So it's no surprise that the BEA-TT adopt that as highly likely to be the case. They dismiss the idea (which had so excited the press previously) that being a long-term user of sleeping pills affected the driver's performance; reporting that only normal therapeutic traces were found, of medicines for which no warnings about driving were required. But they did need to explain how she could have driven up to the closed crossing and through the barrier without noticing. As always, it's a story of many small contributory factors. The two tachographs both recorded the impact, so the events could be reconstructed working backwards. There was no CCTV at the crossing or in the train's cab, and fitting more of these is one of the recommendations. The barrier was down when the coach reached the junction, 20 m south of the crossing. The bell isn't audible inside a vehicle from there, and in any case had stopped once the barrier was down. There were three flashing lights, one of which was aimed down to be seen by pedestrians. The other two were aimed along the nearly straight main road, and the far one would have been out of its main beam. The last one, on the near side, could have been hidden behind a pole (for domestic power and/or telephone wires) - its presence was never picked up in assessments. The first light was also hidden from exactly the same viewpoint. Of course the pole blocking a driver's sightline just when they look had a low probability, but even such unlikely things can and do happen. The main element of the narrative was based partly on the driver's evidence about turning into the main road. The road at that point was rebuilt in 2000/01, when the D612 was upgraded to a designated "route avoiding Perpignan", so as to have two single-lane carriageways with raised kerbs at each side and at the central island (which is unusual for French rural roads). Getting a coach to turn into this narrow (3.1 m) slot, only just long enough for it, required a lot of attention and looking in the mirror to check the offside read wheel was off its kerb (the nearside front wheel being invisible). The theory was that this task so occupied the driver that she didn't look with attention at the barrier until it was so low down in front of the coach she was unsighted. The nearest flashing light might have been seen, just, once the coach was straight but its hood came so far down at the sides as to block that view. The barrier arm itself was designed to bend easily enough that the effect on the coach wouldn't be felt. A minute examination of the regulations finds a number of gaps, and contradictions between the railway and road rules. The performance of warning lamps isn't clearly specified, not in brightness nor in angle. The pointing of the lights is defined as if there is only a single road to consider, and while junctions are considered (e.g. in the review checklist), that is mainly for queueing back. The school (Christian Bourquin) at Millas was built only in 2015, so the route this bus took - and the demanding turn manoeuvre at PN25 - was not used by such large vehicles before that. The road from the school (Chemin du Ralet) was widened at the time specifically for school buses. There wasn't a review of the crossing safety triggered by that, but from the comments it probably wouldn't have considered this aspect anyway. In fact, these reviews are clearly seen as inadequate - the 2009 assessment that the crossing was far enough from any junction or other noteworthy point being labelled "manifestly wrong". That 2009 national review programme of level crossing risks was, of course, itself a response to the Allinges accident in 2008. There's no mention of the other point sometimes made about single flashing lights, that a quick look may only see them dark between flashes. Presumably that's the rationale for the twin lights of a wig-wag, though I've not seen proof of that. If looks are never that quick, so single lights are not an issue, then twin ones would avoid the "post in the way" problem - but the superiority of wig-wags isn't mentioned either. One final point that surprised me is that the railway line has never been reopened since the accident, eighteen months ago, being replaced by buses throughout its length. Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: SandTEngineer on July 03, 2019, 10:38:26 Thanks for that excellent summary. I too missed the issue of the report. I'll have a good read over the coming weeks as there are always lessons for everybody when an accident like that happens.
Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on July 03, 2019, 15:35:10 And it's getting worse ... the main line from Lyon to Turin, via the Fréjus tunnel, has been closed for "several weeks" by a mud slide (near les Sordieres). Does it really look such a huge heap as that? It wasn't even big enough to cross the railway and invade the autoroute right next to it. This is originally an SNCF image:
(https://cdn-s-www.ledauphine.com/images/0E92C6CC-C9F2-41F5-A80A-AAE6CAE0B550/LDL_v1_03/capture-d-ecran-1562102436.jpg) Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: eightonedee on July 03, 2019, 15:54:14 Quote Does it really look such a huge heap as that? ....but it might be because of what's still about to slide down the hill/mountainside above the track that they will need to stabilise first! Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on July 03, 2019, 19:48:23 Quote Does it really look such a huge heap as that? ....but it might be because of what's still about to slide down the hill/mountainside above the track that they will need to stabilise first! I think you're right - having just seen some overhead footage, there's a fence further up the slope that's holding back a lot more of that ... stuff ... so what's on the track is just the overflow. And it has now oozed onto the near carriageway of the road (A43). And there's more rain forecast for the Alps; not on the same scale but it only needs to top up the lubrication. This of course is the main rail link between France and Italy: three TGVs, a limited TER service, but a lot of freight (per day each way). Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on July 04, 2019, 15:48:50 This of course is the main rail link between France and Italy: three TGVs, a limited TER service, but a lot of freight (per day each way). Coincidentally, one of the other France-Italy lines was in the news today: Nice-Tende. French trains used to run onward to Turin but no longer do, but Italian ones still run from Ventimiglia into France to join the line and then through to Turin. I imagine displaced TGVs will use the coast line, which might also take goods traffic, though it involves flogging along the full length of the Riviera. But the gradients, loops, and wiggles of the line to Tende (Train des Merveilles) would put off any heavy train. The trouble with the line is the usual one - most of the year it has only a handful of passengers. Fares only cover about 7% of costs, and both the region and their audit body think the subsidy has to be reduced. Currently it's the usual SNCF approach of no closures, but more trains will be buses. That's all happening across France, but this is PACA* - and the region has been having a long bout of arm-wrestling with SNCF over the cost and performance of their services. They threatened an open competition, but in the end found a legal process that let them requisition SNCF in some way rather than negotiating a contract. I've no idea how that works, but after three years they have a new agreement. Politically PACA is a mixture of extremes - left-wing strongholds in Marseille and Toulon, but right (very in parts) elsewhere. Its transport policy is a mix too, and used to include 1€ bus tickets across the region (but only if you asked for one). In passing, I note that Nice airport is to be multimodalised, with on-site buses (which used to stop on the road outside), trams, and trains at a station moved from St Augustin. *Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on July 08, 2019, 20:16:24 Well, it missed the peak off-to-holiday traffic, but it still happened. A two-hour loss of power outside Bordeaux-St-Jean, stopping all trains in and out. One train was within walking distance along the track, as a lot of the passengers confirmed, though there were 15 TGVs stopped in all. However, I suspect most of those still had power, just nowhere to go. The reason was a bit odd: some issue on the pantograph of a train in the depot led to the power locally being switched off. I have no information as to why it was off for so long over all the running lines.
Meanwhile... (actually last Thursday) 30 km away at Libourne, the press thought they'd found a juicy little story: a driver had hit his limit of hours and abandoned his goods train in the station - and it was carrying armoured vehicles for the Bastille Day parade which needed to be guarded at all times! More than that, it was operated by a private company, which is a new idea in France. But later on SNCF sheepishly admitted it was theirs, but claimed the line was OK to use as a goods loop, and the train arrived by the promised time even if it took four hours to get another driver there. I guess Frét SNCF now have to apply to SNCF Réseau for one-off paths in the same way as other operators. Incidentally, on Frét SCNF's landing page it says: Quote 24/7 tracking Our sales teams are ready to help you meet your challenges, both locally and internationally. We’re present throughout France, and our offices are open 24/7, so we can track your shipments in real time. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: Worcester_Passenger on July 20, 2019, 14:02:21 I see from https://www.sncf.com/en/booking-itinerary/traffic-info/gl (https://www.sncf.com/en/booking-itinerary/traffic-info/gl) that SNCF hope to restore the through TGV services to Italy via Modane gradually from July 23 onwards.
Title: France - railway and public transport services and incidents (merged posts) Post by: stuving on October 03, 2019, 17:13:10 Another near miss at a level crossing, this time at Saint-Eulalie on the northern edge of Bordeaux (No 508). Yesterday at about 8:15/8:30, a TransGironde service 301 bus from Libourne to Lormont, carrying about 10 teenagers to school, was caught in traffic, still on a crossing, when the barriers closed. The driver moved forward as far as he could, pushing one car as he did so, while the passengers rushed to the front (he refused to open the doors). The train missed the back of the bus by centimetres - but reports differ as to whether it stopped short or shot past (on the other track it could not have passed).
What led to this was traffic queuing back from the traffic lights on the main road (Avenue de l'Aquitaine), 110 m from the crossing. The driver admitted that he misjudged the space for his bus (or, I suspect, how far the cars in front would keep moving). Obviously everyone is being pretty rude about the bus driver, who has been suspended from work. The local maire was also talking about the urgent need to close this LC (PN), and it turns out it's on SNCF's little list (with 509, on a lane leading to the gare de Sainte-Eulalie - Carbon-Blanc). I can see two trains that might have been involved - 8:21 not stopping or 8:48 stopping at Sainte-Eulalie - Carbon-Blanc. Presumably the stopping train would have slowed enough to make its braking in time more likely. The first train is listed as arriving on time; the second 5 minutes late. (But note that the information in bulletins de retard does not seem to be at all reliable.) That leads to the question about what the response should be to a near miss, but a very serious one - and of a sensitive kind in France. The bus driver exchanged details with the driver he'd shunted, and drove on - later calling base to say he'd had an accident, but not mentioning trains! That must have made his later interview with his boss even frostier. I've not seen any news yet about the SNCF response at the time, though they would have gone out to examine and test the crossing as a matter of course. But did the train really proceed to Bordeaux almost immediately? Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on May 21, 2020, 23:34:07 The line through Millas reopened today - well over two years on from the accident. Most of that time it was a court's decision (which closed the road as well), lifted last October, followed by works to the crossing (inevitably extended by YKW). Further up, part of the line is closed due to storm (Gloria) damage, and buses will fill in until that is fixed.
The rework hasn't touched one of the key factors specific to this crossing: the side road, very close to the track, that the bus came out of. If you remember, it was only just possible to turn the bus in the space, which left very little time with a clear straight-ahead view of the barrier and lights before reaching them. Feelings are, not surprisingly, still rather raw, notably among the parents of children who still make that trip by bus every day. The train times have been changed, and some kind of warning to the school of late running provided, so as to avoid a train and a bus being close to coinciding at the crossing. But it probably didn't help anyone's nerves that only a few days ago the barriers failed to rise after a train had passed. Failed safe, but still ... Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on June 12, 2020, 19:35:00 Le Parisen reported this morning that one of the three SNCF (then RFF) employees implicated in the case, and previously "witnesses under caution", has been mis en examen - charged with a criminal offence, roughly. The prosecutors' office at Evry has confirmed only that step about an unnamed SNCF employee. The newspaper report says more, that it was the local track maintenance manager (the other two being his direct reports). He did the last inspection before the accident, and the independent engineering reports said (based largely on the state of the fracture surfaces) that the relevant trackwork damage was present at that time. It was announced today by the prosecutors that the case (for manslaughter, more or less) against both SCNF and the individual already charged will go to court next year. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on June 16, 2020, 23:09:38 It was announced today by the prosecutors that the case (for manslaighter, more or less) against both SCNF and the individual already charged will go to court next year. I know it's a complex matter, but eight years is a long, long time to have the sword of Damocles over your head. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: GBM on June 18, 2020, 09:47:14 Our UK system doesn't take that long to bring cases forward do they?
It seems the French system drags on far longer than ours, so are their systems more effective than ours; which could mean we convict when perhaps we should take longer to investigate? Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on June 18, 2020, 10:08:12 Our UK system doesn't take that long to bring cases forward do they? It seems the French system drags on far longer than ours, so are their systems more effective than ours; which could mean we convict when perhaps we should take longer to investigate? I can remember a time when the UK system, or at least England and Wales, did drag on and on. I think it was back in the 1980s that a series of legal reforms were introduced to speed things up without detriment to the accused, mostly by making more things triable in Magistrates' Courts rather than Crown, and tidying up the administration. There are many more paid judges in the lower court these days, which helps. Cases are sent to Crown Court at an earlier stage, with progress directed by the judge rather than by magistrates. All that, of course, can only happen once the investigation has been completed and a prima facie case established for someone to answer. I struggle to think of any aspect of this that could have taken 7 years to establish. Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on June 18, 2020, 10:50:59 Our UK system doesn't take that long to bring cases forward do they? It seems the French system drags on far longer than ours, so are their systems more effective than ours; which could mean we convict when perhaps we should take longer to investigate? Remember that this is a high-profile corporate liability case, and against a nationalised industry too. In France individuals are commonly cited in these, and they do drag on for reasons that are hard to see - commissioning lots of expert reports into expert reports is part of that, I think. I don't think France is particularly bad in this respect, but maybe it is in the length of time it takes for the appeals processes to (almost always) eventually overturn personal convictions. In this country such cases have generally not happened, and guilty verdicts have been rare - and I'm not sure how much that has changed, though police investigations are now usual. Even with a big press campaign to get a case started, and another to get a prosecution, liability for manslaughter could not be proved against an organisation without finding a "single controlling mind". So corporate manslaughter was invented*, but proving “senior management failure” has been so hard that convictions are still rare. And of course individuals are in effect still excluded. *The Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: TonyK on June 18, 2020, 11:20:13 Remember that this is a high-profile corporate liability case, and against a nationalised industry too. In France individuals are commonly cited in these, and they do drag on for reasons that are hard to see - commissioning lots of expert reports into expert reports is part of that, I think. I don't think France is particularly bad in this respect, but maybe it is in the length of time it takes for the appeals processes to (almost always) eventually overturn personal convictions. I appreciate all that, and agree with your thoughts. Corporate manslaughter here would not preclude the prosecution of an individual if they were to perform a criminal act or omission, but yes, companies have to be brought to book if they do wrong in telling employees what to do or how to do it. The expert reports will have been commissioned by both sides, or course, with the winner being the one with the more expensive experts as a general rule of thumb. The court in England and Wales, and the investigator in France, will work through these with both sides, holding in effect trials of the evidence and looking for the areas where both sides agree, so that the eventual trial will focus only on what remains in dispute, what actually happened, and why it happened. That takes time, and lots of arguments, but leaving it to rumble on for so long runs the risk of people growing old, infirm or dying, with the possibility of a whole new set of arguments about whose memory of the events is the most accurate. Justice may prevail, but it might look a little pale by the time it is done. Title: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Jamsdad on July 14, 2020, 17:18:55 Interviewed today, French President Macron has announced a massive development in rail freight, a reintroduction of overnight sleeper services and redevelopment of services on minor lines. Badly needed after the last decade of "nothing but TGV"!
Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: stuving on July 14, 2020, 18:22:04 There's not a lot of detail on this, as it's going to be part of the EU relaunch package and that's not due to be announced until September. A global figure of at least €100Bn is being given, but that has to be shared by a lot of other green stuff - insulating schools, care home, and houses included.
Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Lee on July 27, 2020, 01:11:22 I fancy the idea of retiring to a cottage in the countryside - to an old station that's perhaps disused but has trains passing by occasionally, or is open and used by a smattering of passengers. - A rail enthusiast property developer is currently redeveloping the historic station building at Pontivy (https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_de_Pontivy), which still sees fairly regular freight trains, and you could view these at your leisure from one of the 4 duplex apartments being built on the upper levels. He is doing this in conjunction with the local authorities, who are building one of your favourite things in the whole wide world - a bus/rail interchange! This will include a new waiting hall, ticket office and retail space on the ground floor, the idea being to integrate regional bus, local bus, cycle routes etc with the revived tourist passenger trains that were due to start this summer but, thanks to Covid-19, are more likely now in 2021 as a first step to full passenger rail reopening - thus creating grahame heaven in the process. Here is a translated article from Reporterre (https://reporterre.net/En-Bretagne-ils-veulent-relancer-une-ligne-de-train-fermee-depuis-30-ans) on hopes for the renovation and restoration of passenger trains on the Saint Brieuc-Pontivy-Auray line as part of the Macron initiative: Quote from: Reporterre Closed for thirty years, the TER railway line which crosses Brittany from north to south could resume service. At the initiative of this possible renaissance, a collective of railway workers and a train enthusiast who campaign for the return of rail to rural areas. The ballet of TER coaches makes the windows of buildings vibrate around the Pontivy bus station (Morbihan). Travelers protect themselves from the July sun under the only bus shelter, planted at the corner of the car park. Since the station closed in 2014, it's the only place to wait. But not for long. In a few months, the renovated building will reopen its doors to the public, thanks to Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem . This entrepreneur, passionate about trains, has invested 1 million euros to buy and renovate the station of this sub-prefecture of 15,000 inhabitants, abandoned since the collapse of part of its ceiling. The work is progressing well. That morning, the workers carefully install the new clock on the pediment. “ A clock is the heart of a station, ” smiles the new owner. In a few months, an SNCF counter will be installed there. And Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem does not intend to stop there. “ The reopening of the station is the first step. The ultimate goal is the return of the passenger train ! " It has been thirty years since Pontivy has not welcomed a single one. The railway line going from Saint-Brieuc (Côtes-d'Armor) to Auray via the city only sees a few freight wagons circulating. It is therefore by bus that the inhabitants go to the neighboring department, for a carbon footprint nearly twice as high. “ We have to bring trains back here. Buying the station is a militant act , ” says Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem, a construction helmet adorned with the inscription “ station master ” on the head. And he is not alone. At his side, around fifty elected officials, activists and citizens are united in the collective “ Center-Bretagne en train ”, founded two years ago to revive the rail link between the north and the south of Brittany. . The challenge is twofold: to increase freight and, above all, to get passengers back on track. The key is to open up the area and reduce road traffic. “ When you look at the map of the region's rail network, there's a big hole in the middle. It is the center of Brittany ”, describes Simon Brunet, railway worker member of the CGT and founder of the collective. “ It is a territory which is suffering, which is even declining. Equal treatment between citizens also involves mobility, and bus connections are not a solution for the future. " 140,000 people live along the line. So many potential passengers. The idea of relaunching this train link is not new, but the climate emergency has accelerated the thinking. " The ecological context was the trigger for setting up the collective, " says the railway worker. A public meeting organized in Pontivy in November 2019 attracted around sixty people. On July 14, Emmanuel Macron announced that he wanted to develop small train lines, freight and night trains. At the same time, citizen initiatives aiming to defend or promote the train are multiplying. The Railcoop cooperative , with which the Breton collective is in contact, thus wants to relaunch the Bordeaux-Lyon train line, abandoned by the SNCF . " We feel that we have an openness, that the context is favorable to the debate ", rejoices Simon Brunet, " and we are going to seize it " . From his station under construction, Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem also feels this enthusiasm. “ It is not a question of starting trains with three travelers, it would take a market study, suitable schedules… But the community of communes [Pontivy community] has 45,000 inhabitants, that's still quite a crowd ! " The collective hopes of reopening the Breton online travelers within five years. It would not be a first, moreover. In 2016, a section of the TER line between Oloron-Sainte-Marie and Bedous, in the Pyrénées-Atlantiques, was put back into operation after fifty years of closure. The cost of 102 million euros was fully covered by the former Aquitaine region. In Brittany, the Auray-Saint-Brieuc project is supported by many local elected officials from north to south of the line. In Saint-Brieuc, the new municipal team of the ecological left is in favor, as is that of Pontivy. " But it is those who hold the purse string that must be convinced, " recalls Simon Brunet. The collective estimates the cost of modernizing and operating the train link at 100 million euros. A sum that would be shared by SNCF Réseau, owner of the rail infrastructure, and the Brittany region, responsible for organizing transport. The latter does not plan to reopen the line for the moment. " At this stage, the Brittany region has not taken part in any discussion on the subject, " said the vice-president for transport, Gérard Lahellec. He recalls that the community has " agreed to co-finance infrastructure work to allow freight trains to continue to serve businesses in central Brittany " since 2007. The Brittany region has also invested heavily in the TER , spending 160 million euros to renovate several lines. “ We understand this position,” says Simon Brunet. As this line is of national importance for freight, the State must also assume its responsibilities. " The group intends to take advantage of regional elections in March 2021 to highlight the subject of renovation and the creation of small lines. " We do not want the issue of the train to be confined to speeding up connections with Paris, " said the unionist. Living in the country is a right. To ensure equality between the territories, there must be solidarity between profitable lines and those which are not. The “next world” also goes through this. " Pontivy station will reopen its doors in a year. Cap, whistle and SNCF badge , the outfit of station master Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem is already ready. He is convinced: the train will whistle again three times in central Brittany. Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Hal on July 27, 2020, 15:22:16 About the revived sleeper trains, French press reports quote transport minister Jean-Baptiste Djebbari as saying the first would be on the Paris-Nice line, and the second would link Paris with the Pyreneen city of Tarbes.
Until 2017, Paris and Tarbes were linked by the night train known as La Palombe Bleue (the Blue Woodpigeon). In its previous incarnation the Woodpigeon was extended from Tarbes to Hendaye in the Basque Country on France’s Atlantic coast. Trains left Paris-Austerlitz at 21.52 and arrived in Hendaye at 09.24. I recently read somewhere about Austrian railways reintroducing night trains, but I can’t recall the details. Perhaps some Coffee Shop reader has the facts? Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Hal on July 27, 2020, 16:34:30 The French press also reports today that prime minister Jean Castex has outlined plans for increased freight traffic on specialist routes, as well as reduced freight tariffs.
Notably, he intends to revive the Perpignan-Rungis route which, until halted last year, used refrigerated wagons to bring fresh fruit and vegetables from the south of France to Paris’s wholesale market at Rungis. Castex also said the line could be extended at both ends — to Barcelona in the south and Antwerp in the north. The fresh produce train was controversially discontinued last year, and fruit/veg from Spain, Morocco and southern France is now hauled by lorry. Castex also announced two new freight routes - from Bayonne near the Spanish border to Cherbourg on the English Channel, and from Sète on the Mediterranean to Calais. Not clear what he envisages these trains will carry. Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Lee on July 27, 2020, 18:24:49 I recently read somewhere about Austrian railways reintroducing night trains, but I can’t recall the details. Perhaps some Coffee Shop reader has the facts? They resume as follows: Vienna - Milan 1 August Milan - Vienna 4 August Munich - Milan 3 August Milan - Munich 2 August See here (https://www.nightjet.com/en) for more details. Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: rogerpatenall on July 28, 2020, 10:18:13 Castex also announced two new freight routes - from Bayonne near the Spanish border to Cherbourg on the English Channel, and from Sète on the Mediterranean to Calais. Not clear what he envisages these trains will carry. The Cherbourg link is being planned in association with Brittany Ferries. Unaccompanied trailers will be taken to the ports in Ireland (principally), but also in England. Transhipped by the shipping company to train at Cherbourg, and then the trailers picked up by local drivers in Bayonne (and vv). Freight will, as I understand it, be exclusively complete trailer units, minus tractors. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on August 31, 2020, 12:17:24 Well, this year they were a few days late, but it's traditional, so it has to happen (like the Tour de France). From The Local (https://www.thelocal.fr/20200831/french-rail-network-not-back-to-normal-until-tuesday-at-earliest-after-power-outage-strands-thousands):
Quote French rail network disrupted until 'Tuesday at earliest' after power outage strands thousands 31 August 2020 09:24 CEST+02:00 French rail operator SNCF says that trains will not be back to normal until Tuesday morning at the earliest after a power failure saw thousands of passengers having to spend the night on stranded trains. The power failure in south west France affected thousands of passengers who were travelling back to Paris and the north of the country ready to go back to work on Monday. The power failure happened between Dax and Bordeaux on Sunday afternoon, leaving several trains from Dax, Biarritz and Hendaye stuck on the lines unable to move. Many passengers were stranded for up to 20 hours and some were forced to sleep on trains after local hotels ran out of space. In all around 2,500 passengers were affected, said SNCF. The company added that the problem is not yet resolved and has also had major knock-on effects on the rail network, saying that they do not expect a return to normal until Tuesday morning at the earliest. There is talk of 60 km of OLE needing to be repaired. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: Hal on August 31, 2020, 15:23:51 Le Monde quotes the SNCF as saying passengers affected by this breakdown will receive "compensation amounting to 300%" (of their ticket price presumably). SNCF will also cover consequential costs such as hotels and taxis.
Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on August 31, 2020, 20:16:37 There is talk of 60 km of OLE needing to be repaired. SNCF are saying (though this is subject to detailed investigation) that a catenary fault at Orthez damaged a pantograph, which in turn went on to damage 60 km of catenary (mainly at track switches). For that, it must have still been collecting current OK. After stopping at Morcenx, the train did restart and got 50 km further to Ychoux, before its complete failure. Apparently, two following trains also suffered some of this mutual damage effect. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: Electric train on September 01, 2020, 07:10:33 There is talk of 60 km of OLE needing to be repaired. SNCF are saying (though this is subject to detailed investigation) that a catenary fault at Orthez damaged a pantograph, which in turn went on to damage 60 km of catenary (mainly at track switches). For that, it must have still been collecting current OK. After stopping at Morcenx, the train did restart and got 50 km further to Ychoux, before its complete failure. Apparently, two following trains also suffered some of this mutual damage effect. TGV's have 2 Pans wonder if it was the leading or trailing Pan that was damaged? At the speeds of TGV's the dynamic forces at the pantograph it does not take much to cause damage to the OLE and over a large area. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: JontyMort on September 01, 2020, 21:24:43 There is talk of 60 km of OLE needing to be repaired. SNCF are saying (though this is subject to detailed investigation) that a catenary fault at Orthez damaged a pantograph, which in turn went on to damage 60 km of catenary (mainly at track switches). For that, it must have still been collecting current OK. After stopping at Morcenx, the train did restart and got 50 km further to Ychoux, before its complete failure. Apparently, two following trains also suffered some of this mutual damage effect. TGV's have 2 Pans wonder if it was the leading or trailing Pan that was damaged? At the speeds of TGV's the dynamic forces at the pantograph it does not take much to cause damage to the OLE and over a large area. Though, of course, this wasn’t on a high-speed line, so the fact that it was a TGV may not be relevant. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on September 01, 2020, 23:39:15 There is talk of 60 km of OLE needing to be repaired. SNCF are saying (though this is subject to detailed investigation) that a catenary fault at Orthez damaged a pantograph, which in turn went on to damage 60 km of catenary (mainly at track switches). For that, it must have still been collecting current OK. After stopping at Morcenx, the train did restart and got 50 km further to Ychoux, before its complete failure. Apparently, two following trains also suffered some of this mutual damage effect. TGV's have 2 Pans wonder if it was the leading or trailing Pan that was damaged? At the speeds of TGV's the dynamic forces at the pantograph it does not take much to cause damage to the OLE and over a large area. Though, of course, this wasn’t on a high-speed line, so the fact that it was a TGV may not be relevant. True - and not only that; this is DC territory so it's not even 25kV. AFAIK TGVs only raise one pan under 25kV, though I vaguely recall they prefer the rear one when running single. Of course TGVs often run in pairs, and will be subject to rules about inter-pan spacing varying with speed (which I failed to find on line). It's not clear whether this train was one or two units. On 1500V DC each unit would raise both pans - the power link along the roof only being available at 25kV. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on September 03, 2020, 12:57:10 Just a small clarification, based on a more through report of Monday's press conference (https://www.sudouest.fr/2020/08/31/incident-a-la-sncf-enquete-en-cours-sur-l-origine-de-la-panne-electrique-7791686-2780.php):
TGV 8538 did contain two units, should have left Hendaye at 11:46 and was due into Paris at 16:21. The passengers were moved to another train during the night (presumably at Ychoux), which left Bordeaux (where it does not normally call) for Paris at 10:00, and would have arrived ca. 12:10. It does not pass through Orthez, so why did SNCF infra mention OLE damage there? They were actually saying they did not know which train first damaged the OLE - maybe 8538, maybe an earlier one, which then led to further trains sufferinge damage. Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Lee on October 02, 2020, 15:01:14 I fancy the idea of retiring to a cottage in the countryside - to an old station that's perhaps disused but has trains passing by occasionally, or is open and used by a smattering of passengers. - A rail enthusiast property developer is currently redeveloping the historic station building at Pontivy (https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_de_Pontivy), which still sees fairly regular freight trains, and you could view these at your leisure from one of the 4 duplex apartments being built on the upper levels. He is doing this in conjunction with the local authorities, who are building one of your favourite things in the whole wide world - a bus/rail interchange! This will include a new waiting hall, ticket office and retail space on the ground floor, the idea being to integrate regional bus, local bus, cycle routes etc with the revived tourist passenger trains that were due to start this summer but, thanks to Covid-19, are more likely now in 2021 as a first step to full passenger rail reopening - thus creating grahame heaven in the process. Here is a translated article from Reporterre (https://reporterre.net/En-Bretagne-ils-veulent-relancer-une-ligne-de-train-fermee-depuis-30-ans) on hopes for the renovation and restoration of passenger trains on the Saint Brieuc-Pontivy-Auray line as part of the Macron initiative: Quote from: Reporterre Closed for thirty years, the TER railway line which crosses Brittany from north to south could resume service. At the initiative of this possible renaissance, a collective of railway workers and a train enthusiast who campaign for the return of rail to rural areas. The ballet of TER coaches makes the windows of buildings vibrate around the Pontivy bus station (Morbihan). Travelers protect themselves from the July sun under the only bus shelter, planted at the corner of the car park. Since the station closed in 2014, it's the only place to wait. But not for long. In a few months, the renovated building will reopen its doors to the public, thanks to Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem . This entrepreneur, passionate about trains, has invested 1 million euros to buy and renovate the station of this sub-prefecture of 15,000 inhabitants, abandoned since the collapse of part of its ceiling. The work is progressing well. That morning, the workers carefully install the new clock on the pediment. “ A clock is the heart of a station, ” smiles the new owner. In a few months, an SNCF counter will be installed there. And Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem does not intend to stop there. “ The reopening of the station is the first step. The ultimate goal is the return of the passenger train ! " It has been thirty years since Pontivy has not welcomed a single one. The railway line going from Saint-Brieuc (Côtes-d'Armor) to Auray via the city only sees a few freight wagons circulating. It is therefore by bus that the inhabitants go to the neighboring department, for a carbon footprint nearly twice as high. “ We have to bring trains back here. Buying the station is a militant act , ” says Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem, a construction helmet adorned with the inscription “ station master ” on the head. And he is not alone. At his side, around fifty elected officials, activists and citizens are united in the collective “ Center-Bretagne en train ”, founded two years ago to revive the rail link between the north and the south of Brittany. . The challenge is twofold: to increase freight and, above all, to get passengers back on track. The key is to open up the area and reduce road traffic. “ When you look at the map of the region's rail network, there's a big hole in the middle. It is the center of Brittany ”, describes Simon Brunet, railway worker member of the CGT and founder of the collective. “ It is a territory which is suffering, which is even declining. Equal treatment between citizens also involves mobility, and bus connections are not a solution for the future. " 140,000 people live along the line. So many potential passengers. The idea of relaunching this train link is not new, but the climate emergency has accelerated the thinking. " The ecological context was the trigger for setting up the collective, " says the railway worker. A public meeting organized in Pontivy in November 2019 attracted around sixty people. On July 14, Emmanuel Macron announced that he wanted to develop small train lines, freight and night trains. At the same time, citizen initiatives aiming to defend or promote the train are multiplying. The Railcoop cooperative , with which the Breton collective is in contact, thus wants to relaunch the Bordeaux-Lyon train line, abandoned by the SNCF . " We feel that we have an openness, that the context is favorable to the debate ", rejoices Simon Brunet, " and we are going to seize it " . From his station under construction, Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem also feels this enthusiasm. “ It is not a question of starting trains with three travelers, it would take a market study, suitable schedules… But the community of communes [Pontivy community] has 45,000 inhabitants, that's still quite a crowd ! " The collective hopes of reopening the Breton online travelers within five years. It would not be a first, moreover. In 2016, a section of the TER line between Oloron-Sainte-Marie and Bedous, in the Pyrénées-Atlantiques, was put back into operation after fifty years of closure. The cost of 102 million euros was fully covered by the former Aquitaine region. In Brittany, the Auray-Saint-Brieuc project is supported by many local elected officials from north to south of the line. In Saint-Brieuc, the new municipal team of the ecological left is in favor, as is that of Pontivy. " But it is those who hold the purse string that must be convinced, " recalls Simon Brunet. The collective estimates the cost of modernizing and operating the train link at 100 million euros. A sum that would be shared by SNCF Réseau, owner of the rail infrastructure, and the Brittany region, responsible for organizing transport. The latter does not plan to reopen the line for the moment. " At this stage, the Brittany region has not taken part in any discussion on the subject, " said the vice-president for transport, Gérard Lahellec. He recalls that the community has " agreed to co-finance infrastructure work to allow freight trains to continue to serve businesses in central Brittany " since 2007. The Brittany region has also invested heavily in the TER , spending 160 million euros to renovate several lines. “ We understand this position,” says Simon Brunet. As this line is of national importance for freight, the State must also assume its responsibilities. " The group intends to take advantage of regional elections in March 2021 to highlight the subject of renovation and the creation of small lines. " We do not want the issue of the train to be confined to speeding up connections with Paris, " said the unionist. Living in the country is a right. To ensure equality between the territories, there must be solidarity between profitable lines and those which are not. The “next world” also goes through this. " Pontivy station will reopen its doors in a year. Cap, whistle and SNCF badge , the outfit of station master Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem is already ready. He is convinced: the train will whiste le again three times in central Brittany. I visited Pontivy station last Friday (25 September 2020), and things are progressing very well. The renovation of the station building is almost complete, with just a couple of window panes, and the interior fittings and exterior signs to be completed. Similarly, the bus/rail interchange only really needs to be marked out to be ready. I had access trackside, where work to bring the platforms up to modern standards has begun, and as luck would have it, a freight train happened to be in while I was there. As an aside, a Covid-19 testing tent is also available in the station area. Photos of all of the above, and of the rail route through the town taken at various vantage points, can be found here. (https://marleywarleysboutique.com/pages/pontivy-interchange-25-september-2020) Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: TonyK on October 02, 2020, 18:04:39 As an aside, a Covid-19 testing tent is also available in the station area. It's good to know that there is one closer than that offered to me by the Covid 19 app. ??? The photos do look good. The building resembles a lot of the small French stations I remember from the 1970s, other than being in a lot better condition. Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Hal on October 05, 2020, 15:11:37 Further details announced today of the French government?s investment in railways.
Prime Minister Jean Castex visited the central city of Clermont-Ferrand and said 280 million euros are to be invested over the next two years in upgrading the link between Clermont and Paris, as well as in maintaining the small local lines in the Auvergne region and ?consolidating? the goods lines (whatever that means). The Paris-Clermont journey will be shortened to 3 hours 15 minutes, and one extra train per day will be added. New rolling stock will arrive in 2023-24. People in the Auvergne frequently complain about the unreliability of the rail service to Paris. And indeed, on the very day of Castex?s statement, one train from Paris arrived in Clermont more than 5 hours late ? a broken-down goods train and problems with a catenary were cited as the reasons for the delay, according to the local newspaper La Montagne. Title: Some TGVs to be cancelled in France due to lack of demand Post by: Lee on October 10, 2020, 08:48:02 From the Connexion: (https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Some-TGVs-to-be-cancelled-in-France-due-to-lack-of-demand)
Quote from: The Connexion Some TGVs to be cancelled in France due to lack of demand The SNCF will cancel scheduled TGV journeys in the coming months to avoid running empty trains. Passenger numbers are down following the Covid-19 pandemic. Demand for TGV trains has failed to reach levels anticipated at the beginning of September, and train operator SNCF will now cancel some scheduled TGV journeys in the coming months. Around 5% of TGV trains will be impacted. The company has said it will not cancel trains during school holidays. After a relatively good summer, in which people took the train to travel around France and visit friends and family, an SNCF spokesperson said: ?Things have been difficult since September.? Weekend TGV trains continue to see good passenger numbers, but weekday trains have been circulating at half capacity. Business travel is down 60-70%. The company says reservations for the Christmas and New Year period have also been ?disappointing?. The spokesperson said: ?It is not economically or ecologically responsible to run TGV trains with few passengers. That?s why, taking into account the impact of the health crisis, SNCF TGV have decided to cancel a certain number.? SNCF TGV is estimated to have lost ?3billion so far as a result of the Covid-19 health pandemic. The spokesperson said TGV train timetables could be ?cancelled, adapted or extended throughout 2021, depending on how traffic evolves and the enduring context?. To compensate for cancelled trains SNCF are trying to find alternatives for clients, such as suggesting TER train routes (which are slower) or integrating extra stops into existing TGV routes. The two train routes expected to be impacted from November 2 are the TGV Paris-Mulhouse, and the TGV Paris-Le Creusot. Both routes will see one train per day cancelled. Title: Re: Some TGVs to be cancelled in France due to lack of demand Post by: rogerpatenall on October 10, 2020, 12:01:23 I thought that TGV and Intercite bookings for post December 12th were only released this week, so it seems a bit early to pass judgements on the level of Christmas bookings.
Some lines, such as my local (Cherbourg) - Valognes - Paris, which are no longer run by Intercite, still have not announced their post December 12th timetable. Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Lee on October 11, 2020, 15:33:52 I fancy the idea of retiring to a cottage in the countryside - to an old station that's perhaps disused but has trains passing by occasionally, or is open and used by a smattering of passengers. - A rail enthusiast property developer is currently redeveloping the historic station building at Pontivy (https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_de_Pontivy), which still sees fairly regular freight trains, and you could view these at your leisure from one of the 4 duplex apartments being built on the upper levels. He is doing this in conjunction with the local authorities, who are building one of your favourite things in the whole wide world - a bus/rail interchange! This will include a new waiting hall, ticket office and retail space on the ground floor, the idea being to integrate regional bus, local bus, cycle routes etc with the revived tourist passenger trains that were due to start this summer but, thanks to Covid-19, are more likely now in 2021 as a first step to full passenger rail reopening - thus creating grahame heaven in the process. Here is a translated article from Reporterre (https://reporterre.net/En-Bretagne-ils-veulent-relancer-une-ligne-de-train-fermee-depuis-30-ans) on hopes for the renovation and restoration of passenger trains on the Saint Brieuc-Pontivy-Auray line as part of the Macron initiative: Quote from: Reporterre Closed for thirty years, the TER railway line which crosses Brittany from north to south could resume service. At the initiative of this possible renaissance, a collective of railway workers and a train enthusiast who campaign for the return of rail to rural areas. The ballet of TER coaches makes the windows of buildings vibrate around the Pontivy bus station (Morbihan). Travelers protect themselves from the July sun under the only bus shelter, planted at the corner of the car park. Since the station closed in 2014, it's the only place to wait. But not for long. In a few months, the renovated building will reopen its doors to the public, thanks to Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem . This entrepreneur, passionate about trains, has invested 1 million euros to buy and renovate the station of this sub-prefecture of 15,000 inhabitants, abandoned since the collapse of part of its ceiling. The work is progressing well. That morning, the workers carefully install the new clock on the pediment. “ A clock is the heart of a station, ” smiles the new owner. In a few months, an SNCF counter will be installed there. And Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem does not intend to stop there. “ The reopening of the station is the first step. The ultimate goal is the return of the passenger train ! " It has been thirty years since Pontivy has not welcomed a single one. The railway line going from Saint-Brieuc (Côtes-d'Armor) to Auray via the city only sees a few freight wagons circulating. It is therefore by bus that the inhabitants go to the neighboring department, for a carbon footprint nearly twice as high. “ We have to bring trains back here. Buying the station is a militant act , ” says Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem, a construction helmet adorned with the inscription “ station master ” on the head. And he is not alone. At his side, around fifty elected officials, activists and citizens are united in the collective “ Center-Bretagne en train ”, founded two years ago to revive the rail link between the north and the south of Brittany. . The challenge is twofold: to increase freight and, above all, to get passengers back on track. The key is to open up the area and reduce road traffic. “ When you look at the map of the region's rail network, there's a big hole in the middle. It is the center of Brittany ”, describes Simon Brunet, railway worker member of the CGT and founder of the collective. “ It is a territory which is suffering, which is even declining. Equal treatment between citizens also involves mobility, and bus connections are not a solution for the future. " 140,000 people live along the line. So many potential passengers. The idea of relaunching this train link is not new, but the climate emergency has accelerated the thinking. " The ecological context was the trigger for setting up the collective, " says the railway worker. A public meeting organized in Pontivy in November 2019 attracted around sixty people. On July 14, Emmanuel Macron announced that he wanted to develop small train lines, freight and night trains. At the same time, citizen initiatives aiming to defend or promote the train are multiplying. The Railcoop cooperative , with which the Breton collective is in contact, thus wants to relaunch the Bordeaux-Lyon train line, abandoned by the SNCF . " We feel that we have an openness, that the context is favorable to the debate ", rejoices Simon Brunet, " and we are going to seize it " . From his station under construction, Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem also feels this enthusiasm. “ It is not a question of starting trains with three travelers, it would take a market study, suitable schedules… But the community of communes [Pontivy community] has 45,000 inhabitants, that's still quite a crowd ! " The collective hopes of reopening the Breton online travelers within five years. It would not be a first, moreover. In 2016, a section of the TER line between Oloron-Sainte-Marie and Bedous, in the Pyrénées-Atlantiques, was put back into operation after fifty years of closure. The cost of 102 million euros was fully covered by the former Aquitaine region. In Brittany, the Auray-Saint-Brieuc project is supported by many local elected officials from north to south of the line. In Saint-Brieuc, the new municipal team of the ecological left is in favor, as is that of Pontivy. " But it is those who hold the purse string that must be convinced, " recalls Simon Brunet. The collective estimates the cost of modernizing and operating the train link at 100 million euros. A sum that would be shared by SNCF Réseau, owner of the rail infrastructure, and the Brittany region, responsible for organizing transport. The latter does not plan to reopen the line for the moment. " At this stage, the Brittany region has not taken part in any discussion on the subject, " said the vice-president for transport, Gérard Lahellec. He recalls that the community has " agreed to co-finance infrastructure work to allow freight trains to continue to serve businesses in central Brittany " since 2007. The Brittany region has also invested heavily in the TER , spending 160 million euros to renovate several lines. “ We understand this position,” says Simon Brunet. As this line is of national importance for freight, the State must also assume its responsibilities. " The group intends to take advantage of regional elections in March 2021 to highlight the subject of renovation and the creation of small lines. " We do not want the issue of the train to be confined to speeding up connections with Paris, " said the unionist. Living in the country is a right. To ensure equality between the territories, there must be solidarity between profitable lines and those which are not. The “next world” also goes through this. " Pontivy station will reopen its doors in a year. Cap, whistle and SNCF badge , the outfit of station master Jean-Philippe Van Walleghem is already ready. He is convinced: the train will whiste le again three times in central Brittany. I visited Pontivy station last Friday (25 September 2020), and things are progressing very well. The renovation of the station building is almost complete, with just a couple of window panes, and the interior fittings and exterior signs to be completed. Similarly, the bus/rail interchange only really needs to be marked out to be ready. I had access trackside, where work to bring the platforms up to modern standards has begun, and as luck would have it, a freight train happened to be in while I was there. As an aside, a Covid-19 testing tent is also available in the station area. Photos of all of the above, and of the rail route through the town taken at various vantage points, can be found here. (https://marleywarleysboutique.com/pages/pontivy-interchange-25-september-2020) More good news - Association Chemins de fer de Center-Bretagne (CFCB) have concluded an operating and circulation agreement with SNCF Reseau to run tourist trains from Pontivy southwards to Lambel Camors from next summer. These will initially run on Wednesdays and Sundays, which are the 2 days per week that no freight paths are scheduled. If this is successful, then a joint passenger/freight operating agreement will be sought to expand the number of operating days, and extend towards the junction with the main line at Auray, which is served by TGVs to Rennes and Paris, and local trains to Quimper, Lorient and Vannes. The ultimate aim is to have a 7 days a week "national rail" SNCF service from Pontivy-Auray providing all of the above connections, coexisting with freight trains, and with tourist trains that would continue to run in the summer months. Could something similar work in the UK? Now, there's an idea... (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=17237.msg293536#msg293536) Title: Re: Some TGVs to be cancelled in France due to lack of demand Post by: Hal on November 03, 2020, 12:06:54 SNCF said today it will cancel up to 70% of TGV services from Wednesday as the new lockdown - Reconfinement - has begun across France.
Occupancy of mainline trains has dropped to 15% from about 50% last week, as new rules prevent people from leaving their homes except in specified circumstances (work, medical appointment, food shopping etc). The Reconfinement will last for a minimum of four weeks from midnight 29 October. Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: stuving on May 21, 2021, 12:45:33 About the revived sleeper trains, French press reports quote transport minister Jean-Baptiste Djebbari as saying the first would be on the Paris-Nice line, and the second would link Paris with the Pyreneen city of Tarbes. The new (or resumed) Paris-Nice night train did start with its first run last night. The only English report I can find is pre-reporting from yesterday, but it did happen as described - complete with Castex making the PA welcome announcement. What the fares will settle down at, and how much subsidy that will involve, is hard to say. From RFI (https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20210520-french-pm-to-inaugurate-newly-resumed-paris-nice-night-train-service-jean-castex-environment-transport-investment): Quote French PM to inaugurate newly resumed Paris-Nice night train service ...Issued on: 20/05/2021 - 17:00 Planned for 16 April and then postponed due to the Covid-19 health crisis, the Paris-Nice night train leaves this evening for the first time in three years, with French Prime Minister Jean Castex as an honorary passenger. The resumption of the service is part of a government push for 'greener' transport options. The French Prime Minister Jean Castex is due to inaugurate the night-time Intercités train at the Austerlitz station before sleeping in a first class carriage: departure at 8.52pm, arrival at 09.11am on Friday on the French Riviera. The journey will take a twelve hours, compared to less than six hours by TGV. This launch "highlights a virtuous mode of transport that contributes to the opening up of the regions. Nice is ultra-connected for the upper classes but less so for students and others," the Prime Minister's entourage told French news agency AFP. Tickets start at 19 euros for a reclining seat, 29 euros for a second class sleeper and 39 euros for a first class sleeper. Massive investment in the rail sector The Paris-Nice Intercités, which stopped its operation in December 2017 due to a lack of profitability, will connect Paris-Austerlitz and Nice-Ville every day in both directions, with six stops including Marseille, Toulon and Cannes. With this long route in his agenda, Castex wants to highlight a "rapid concretisation of the government's recovery plan", which has earmarked 5.3 billion euros for the rail sector, including 100 million euros for night trains. It provides 50 million for the refurbishment of 51 night carriages and another 50 million for the reception of passengers and the adaptation of workshops. Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Lee on June 28, 2021, 17:37:33 More good news - Association Chemins de fer de Center-Bretagne (CFCB) have concluded an operating and circulation agreement with SNCF Reseau to run tourist trains from Pontivy southwards to Lambel Camors from next summer. These will initially run on Wednesdays and Sundays, which are the 2 days per week that no freight paths are scheduled. If this is successful, then a joint passenger/freight operating agreement will be sought to expand the number of operating days, and extend towards the junction with the main line at Auray, which is served by TGVs to Rennes and Paris, and local trains to Quimper, Lorient and Vannes. The ultimate aim is to have a 7 days a week "national rail" SNCF service from Pontivy-Auray providing all of the above connections, coexisting with freight trains, and with tourist trains that would continue to run in the summer months. Could something similar work in the UK? Now, there's an idea... (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=17237.msg293536#msg293536) The big day has arrived - Today Pontivy Interchange has opened, and the first tourist train has run: (https://www.letelegramme.fr/ar/imgproxy.php/images/2020/10/10/longtemps-dans-les-cartons-le-train-touristique-devient_5344979.jpg?article=12634784&aaaammjj=12634784) Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Richard Fairhurst on June 30, 2021, 09:52:47 Nicely timed to coincide with the Tour de France's visit to Pontivy, too!
Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Lee on June 30, 2021, 10:12:36 Nicely timed to coincide with the Tour de France's visit to Pontivy, too! Indeed - We had half-price rail singles and a €1 flat fare bus ticket offer for the duration of the Tour de France being in Brittany as well. Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Lee on September 25, 2021, 16:13:22 More good news - Association Chemins de fer de Center-Bretagne (CFCB) have concluded an operating and circulation agreement with SNCF Reseau to run tourist trains from Pontivy southwards to Lambel Camors from next summer. These will initially run on Wednesdays and Sundays, which are the 2 days per week that no freight paths are scheduled. If this is successful, then a joint passenger/freight operating agreement will be sought to expand the number of operating days, and extend towards the junction with the main line at Auray, which is served by TGVs to Rennes and Paris, and local trains to Quimper, Lorient and Vannes. The ultimate aim is to have a 7 days a week "national rail" SNCF service from Pontivy-Auray providing all of the above connections, coexisting with freight trains, and with tourist trains that would continue to run in the summer months. Could something similar work in the UK? Now, there's an idea... (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=17237.msg293536#msg293536) The big day has arrived - Today Pontivy Interchange has opened, and the first tourist train has run: (https://www.letelegramme.fr/ar/imgproxy.php/images/2020/10/10/longtemps-dans-les-cartons-le-train-touristique-devient_5344979.jpg?article=12634784&aaaammjj=12634784) I visited Pontivy Interchange last Wednesday (22 September 2021) and travelled on the tourist train. Report and pictures can be found here. (https://marleywarleysboutique.com/pages/pontivy-tourist-train-22-september-2021) The summer operating season is now over, and the tourist trains have been more successful than anyone dare hoped, selling out every single service since the beginning of August. They are now taking a short break before resuming Winter/Santa specials in November, which I am sure will prove just as popular. Although you obviously cant read everything into the performance of tourist trains, one cannot help but be encouraged as we continue to prepare for eventual full "national rail" reopening between Pontivy-Auray, for which - as I have mentioned on the forum before - the ball is now very much in our court: Whilst in the UK, the idea of mixing national rail and heritage operations is viewed as radical and controversial, over here in Brittany it is far more commonplace. The Guingamp-Paimpol line has a national rail service during the winter months, and this is mixed with a steam service timetable over part of the route between Pontrieux-Paimpol during the summer months. Similarly, once the final phase of the Pontivy Reopening Project is complete, there will be a national rail service between Auray-Pontivy during the winter months, mixed with a heritage tourist train operation during the summer months. What we are waiting for with Pontivy is the completion of the development, construction and deployment of our own battery trains, which will also provide additional services on non-electrified routes such as Guingamp-Carhaix, Guingamp-Paimpol and Saint Brieuc-Dinan-Dol. These additional services cant be provided at present because a) we dont have sufficient spare DMU rolling stock and b) even if we did, our budget wouldnt stretch to the level of subsidy that, at least initially, would be required to operate those additional services with them. Our experts tell us that once operational, our battery trains operating costs would be low enough to break even with just a handful of passengers on board per service, and as broadgage suggests for the WSR, we see them as the way forward for such services to be both economically and environmentally viable into the future. I had my work hat very much on throughout my visit, and gained a lot of very useful insights. I will in the next few days post in "How Stuff Works" an overview of how our reopening business cases are progressing, and the processes we are going through. Title: Slow but sure. New services on France's underutilized railway lines. Post by: johnneyw on February 01, 2022, 00:22:05 Came across this today. Could it be a model for elsewhere if it can be made to work?
https://www.thelocal.fr/20220126/opinion-frances-slow-train-revolution-may-just-be-the-future-for-travel/ Title: Re: Slow but sure. New services on France's underutilized railway lines. Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 01, 2022, 09:39:34 Interesting idea.
Quote Restaurants and shops along the route will be invited to prepare local specialities which will be sold during station stops and eaten on board. Especially this bit. A totally different attitude to travel.What a wonderful idea: French provincial meals on wheels; traiteurs on trains. Title: Re: Slow but sure. New services on France's underutilized railway lines. Post by: stuving on February 01, 2022, 10:40:39 Interesting idea. Quote Restaurants and shops along the route will be invited to prepare local specialities which will be sold during station stops and eaten on board. Especially this bit. A totally different attitude to travel.What a wonderful idea: French provincial meals on wheels; traiteurs on trains. On whose part? The French - all those millions who charge off down the autoroutes on their holidays,and demonstrate their love of slow travel by sitting in enormous traffic jams? Title: Re: Slow but sure. New services on France's underutilized railway lines. Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 01, 2022, 13:24:57 Not the speed. The idea of station stops designed to allow disembarkation, purchase and reboarding. (Normal in some parts of the world but not one I've encountered on European rail.)
Title: Re: Slow but sure. New services on France's underutilized railway lines. Post by: grahame on February 01, 2022, 15:07:57 Not the speed. The idea of station stops designed to allow disembarkation, purchase and reboarding. (Normal in some parts of the world but not one I've encountered on European rail.) It used to be common practise at Swindon, and in more recent times at Abergynolwyn. Title: Re: Slow but sure. New services on France's underutilized railway lines. Post by: broadgage on February 01, 2022, 15:24:31 Sounds an interesting idea, my main misgiving is the large number of stops proposed, 29 on one route !
I can see the merit of stops in order to enjoy attractions en-route, purchase food and drink, and presumably to travel to/from intermediate stations rather than along the whole line. 29 stops sounds very tedious though. Perhaps fewer might be better ? Maybe run a service with the same origin and destination every day, but varying the intermediate stops on different days. If we are serious about the climate change emergency, we need to make more use of railways, both fast long distance services as an alternative to air, AND slower or local services as an alternative to leisure trips by car. Title: Re: Slow but sure. New services on France's underutilized railway lines. Post by: stuving on February 01, 2022, 18:41:36 That article is a bit misleading, going further than anything Railcoop say. They are not pushing slowness at all, these just aren't TGVs - more or less resurrected Corails. And that map of routes is of all the ones they have made access applications for, with no intention of running them all. They want to find out which could be made available, after ART do their technical and revenue abstraction tests. Even then, they are asking for other "friendly" operators to take them on.
Title: Parisian Railways Post by: Clan Line on March 12, 2022, 22:02:04 May be of interest:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-24655733 Edit to correct URL - grahame Title: Re: Parisian Railways Post by: JayMac on March 13, 2022, 05:52:39 Parisian Railways?
Gary Moore song innit? :P Title: Re: Parisian Railways Post by: Surrey 455 on March 13, 2022, 19:16:19 The Tim Traveller, a Youtuber I follow has also made a video about this railway. Recorded in 2020, more than 6 years after the BBC story, I think it's more informative than the BBC one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IovEyB2EYoM Incidentally, all his other videos are worth a watch too. Title: Re: Parisian Railways Post by: stuving on March 13, 2022, 20:45:17 If you ask yourself what was similar or different about London in this respect, the obvious point is the central planning. But there were a lot of link lines around London, built jointly, and while some ran passenger trains that's not why they were built. And once the Underground, with its better connectedness, had been built most of those trains withered away. Lines directly linking terminals (mainly London Bridge/Cannon Street/Charing Cross) were a bit different, but even there the linking services largely stopped.
The video does at least pick up on that aspect, but doesn't spot the importance of goods stations. In London this was a major use of these linking lines, as companies had goods stations "out of area" - for example the GWR had one at South Lambeth. I'm not sure how many there were inside Paris, but I came across one last time I was there (2019). It resisted photography, but can be visited by Street View. This was the gare des Gobelins, now called Olympiades, and its access ramp from the southern Petite Ceinture is still there (but neither has track). It was below ground level, and has been slabbed over to build blocks of homes and offices. More of that is now planned, but with the underground area - now various businesses' depots - directed more to servicing shops and other residents' facilities. Title: Fire and one person killed on goods train in Valenciennes station Post by: stuving on March 25, 2022, 19:34:36 There are official suggestions that one of a number of people on top of the train was electrocuted, and that incident started the fire. From All News Press (https://allnewspress.com/one-dead-and-five-injured-at-valenciennes-station-after-a-fire/):
Quote A freight wagon parked at Valenciennes station accidentally caught fire on Friday, according to the SNCF. “Factually, there is a death, a body on the way,” said the head of the Departmental Directorate of Public Security in the North, Thierry Courtecuisse. The firefighters then confirmed this death, also reporting “three minor injuries, visibly migrants”, found on the platform near the burnt wagon. Two firefighters were also slightly injured. Firefighters set up a tent in front of a medical vehicle outside the station, with two empty stretchers. By early evening, the fire was under control, according to firefighters. “Then the investigations will begin, and the search in the rubble, where it is possible that there are victims,” they added. The fire broke out at 4.30 p.m., for a reason still unknown, in a wagon containing tires, which caused an impressive column of smoke, with, according to the firefighters, a “high risk of spreading to two refrigerated wagons and a TER”. The SNCF specified that the station had been evacuated and the traffic interrupted. Title: Re: Fire and one person killed on goods train in Valenciennes station Post by: stuving on March 25, 2022, 20:13:19 There is now a more detailed news report in Le Figaro Live (https://www.lefigaro.fr/faits-divers/hauts-de-france-un-gigantesque-incendie-se-declare-en-gare-de-valenciennes-les-lieux-evacues-20220325), describing the four people involved as Eritrean migrants, possibly minors. One who was trying to climb on the wagon, which had a soft covering, induced the flashover that resulted in his death. The others are described as shocked more than physically injured. The train was about to depart towards Calais. There is a short video clip of the fire here (https://twitter.com/i/status/1507388196551860245)
Title: SNCF new idea for branch lines Post by: Jamsdad on April 01, 2022, 12:09:41 SNCF are proposing an innovative minibus road rail vehicle for little used branch lines.
See the link here https://www.presse-citron.net/la-sncf-lance-flexy-une-navette-etrange-a-mi-chemin-entre-le-train-et-la-voiture/ Title: Re: SNCF new idea for branch lines Post by: infoman on April 01, 2022, 12:32:05 Do the French celebrate all fools day?
Title: Re: SNCF new idea for branch lines Post by: ellendune on April 01, 2022, 13:50:13 Do the French celebrate all fools day? Yes poisson d'avril Title: Re: SNCF new idea for branch lines Post by: stuving on April 01, 2022, 18:17:57 Do the French celebrate all fools day? Yes poisson d'avril They do, though my impression is that they tend to be rather clumsy, and veering more towards the practical joke. But there are some better ones - like this year's from the Gendarmerie des Alpes-de-Haute-Provence, announcing the formation of a cat handler's section. And of course the French claim they invented the whole idea - in 1564, when the date of new year was moved from 1st April. Title: Re: SNCF new idea for branch lines Post by: Jamsdad on April 01, 2022, 19:41:46 I thought this was an April Fool but it’s part of an SNCF initiative announced on 22March. So unbelievably perhaps it is true!
Title: Re: SNCF new idea for branch lines Post by: stuving on April 01, 2022, 19:56:07 I thought this was an April Fool but it’s part of an SNCF initiative announced on 22March. So unbelievably perhaps it is true! There's stuff from earlier than that too. Here's one in English, from Byri.net (https://www.byri.net/2022/03/15/flexy-the-sncf-mixed-road-rail-shuttle/) (who?): Quote The experiment will begin in 2024. It will involve the development of platforms allowing the passage from rail to road (and vice versa), but also that a shuttle can park there in order to avoid a collision with a another arriving in the opposite direction. Flexy shuttles are designed and manufactured by the French company Milla. It is an evolution of the Milla Pod, an autonomous vehicle unveiled in 2019. The adaptation to mixed road-rail use involves the companies Michelin and Railenium. (https://images.caradisiac.com/images/5/1/2/5/195125/S0-l-automobile-est-elle-l-avenir-du-train-709051.jpg) So it may be a silly idea, at least in the practical sense. More of a conecpt, perhaps. What's in it for SNCF? A way to use the little branch line they want to shut, that does not involve running any trains? If so, why do they keep the rails? Title: Re: SNCF new idea for branch lines Post by: Jamsdad on April 02, 2022, 12:58:34 The rails are often left due to the immense political pressure exerted by French local and regional government on SNCF.
Title: Re: SNCF new idea for branch lines Post by: stuving on April 02, 2022, 13:05:41 The rails are often left due to the immense political pressure exerted by French local and regional government on SNCF. So far they have, yes. But what I mean was why do they intend to keep them if it means developing a road/rail version of this Milla Pod thing? It would be easier (i.e. cheaper) to use the standard version, perhaps made to run faster, over a reserved paved route. Title: Re: SNCF new idea for branch lines Post by: Mark A on April 02, 2022, 13:27:46 Off-topic but omg there's now a velorail operation over Le Viaduc de Fades...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTp1EV8rQGw https://en.tourisme-combrailles.fr/fades-electric-velorail-les-ancizes-comps.html Mark Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on April 25, 2022, 12:30:46 Le Parisen reported this morning that one of the three SNCF (then RFF) employees implicated in the case, and previously "witnesses under caution", has been mis en examen - charged with a criminal offence, roughly. The prosecutors' office at Evry has confirmed only that step about an unnamed SNCF employee. The newspaper report says more, that it was the local track maintenance manager (the other two being his direct reports). He did the last inspection before the accident, and the independent engineering reports said (based largely on the state of the fracture surfaces) that the relevant trackwork damage was present at that time. It was announced today by the prosecutors that the case (for manslaughter, more or less) against both SCNF and the individual already charged will go to court next year. The court case starts today. There may be some Covid delay involved, but I suspect it's mostly the usual legal sort. Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: stuving on May 25, 2022, 23:12:32 About the revived sleeper trains, French press reports quote transport minister Jean-Baptiste Djebbari as saying the first would be on the Paris-Nice line, and the second would link Paris with the Pyreneen city of Tarbes. Here's an update on how business is doing on French overnight trains, from IRJ (https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/main-line/paris-nice-overnight-train-reaches-80-occupancy/): Quote Paris - Nice overnight train reaches 80% occupancy More than 100,000 passengers carried in one year. May 25, 2022 Written by David Haydock FRENCH National Railways’ (SNCF) overnight service between Paris and Nice has carried over 100,000 passengers since it was relaunched on May 20 2021, with funding from a €100m government programme to develop overnight services. Paris - Nice has the best occupancy rate of SNCF overnight services, rising to above 80% at weekends and during the holidays. One in four overnight passengers choose the Mediterranean as their destination. SNCF says train occupancy was very good in summer 2021. This trend was confirmed during the autumn and winter, and is now continuing this summer on all SNCF overnight trains. A programme to upgrade the overnight rolling stock and adapt fleet maintenance facilities for the Paris - Nice route is due to be completed by the end of 2022. The Nice service route was added to SNCF’s existing network of overnight services from Paris to Toulouse, Rodez/Albi, La Tour-de-Carol/Cerbère and Briançon. A Paris - Lourdes service was launched at the end of 2021 with government funding. It will be extended to Hendaye to serve the Basque Coast in July and August. These domestic services were joined with the timetable change on December 12 2021 by a Paris - Vienna Nightjet service operated three nights a week by Austrian Federal Railways (ÖBB) in partnership with SNCF. Title: Re: Some TGVs to be cancelled in France due to lack of demand Post by: stuving on June 27, 2022, 12:35:08 What goes down ... a couple of weeks ago SNCF announced extra trains for the summer, in response to high booking levels. A figure of 500,000 seats more than in 2019 was quoted. Then last week there was a report that said a lack of maintenance staff might prevent all of those actually running. But the main news in that report was ... so predictable I'll give you just one guess as to what it was.
Title: Animals on French trains Post by: stuving on June 27, 2022, 18:50:42 SNCF have announced a new fare régime for animals (https://www.sncf.com/en/passenger-offer/travel-for-everyone/pets), widely reported as allowing any animal of any size to travel for €7 (if accompanied, of course). In fact it's not such a big change as that.
There were, and still are, two categories: little ones (6 kg max) in cages, and dogs on leads and muzzled who must sit tidily at the paying passenger's feet. The first used to cost €7, and still do. The change applies to dogs (any size, not in cages), which are now also €7 flat fare. The fare used to be half the standard "kilométrique" rate, and that could be a lot more than the discounted fare for the accompanying human. This applies to all SNCF's own services, and those TERs where they set fares, but not Normandy, Nouvelle Aquitaine, Pays de la Loire and Sud (they may be more or less generous). Obviously any dogs from the UK will need extra paperwork even to be in France in the first place. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on July 30, 2022, 12:29:36 This year SNCF say they are back to "normal", and even more busy than that. So, as it's chassé-croisé weekend, what's broken down? A Thalys, this time. From The Brussels Times (https://www.brusselstimes.com/264459/another-thalys-train-breakdown-traps-passengers-overnight):
Quote Another Thalys train breakdown traps passengers overnight * meaning the power car failed, I presumeSaturday, 30 July 2022 By Dylan Carter Despite a 10% reduction in capacity following the breakdown of two Thalys trains in a week during the recent July heatwave, passengers have once again found themselves stuck on high-speed trains returning from France. Following a collision with an animal on the tracks near Tournai, which caused a technical issue with the train’s engine, around 800 people were allowed to sleep overnight on nearby train carriages provided by Thalys. During the evening, the stricken train was evacuated and the passengers were given the choice of walking to a hotel, paying for a taxi to Brussels, or staying in makeshift accommodation provided by the company. According to Belgian broadcaster RTBF, travellers who opted to receive hotel vouchers were disappointed to find that the hotel had no more rooms available, and were forced to make their own way to the Gare du Midi in Brussels. The broken-down train is scheduled to depart again sometime this morning. Passengers stuck in the train’s carriages were cut off from electricity and air conditioning due to damage to the train’s engine*. According to a spokesperson for the train operator, water was provided to the stranded travellers and the doors of the train were opened. The breakdown has caused a whole chain of delays across the Thalys network, however the operator assures that passengers will be compensated for their time and any inconvenience caused. Related News Thalys is bracing for a summer of disruptions to its planned services. Following the breakdown of the two trains in July, which Thalys initially labelled a “coincidence”, the train operator will now conduct additional safety checks on some of its trains, leading to a series of cancellations. “Due to operating incidents that occurred at the end of July, two trains had to undergo in-depth repairs and checks in our two maintenance workshops in Paris in Brussels,” Thalys explained on its website. “As a result, Thalys will not be able to use its entire fleet for the next few weeks.” Customers are able to postpone their trip free of charge or receive a refund for the cancelled journeys up to one year after the original booking. So, enormously disruptive animals there too. And then there's those two trains breaking down and losing cooling in a heatwave that makes that an instant emergency. And yes, there was a fire as well, perhaps inevitably this year. It closed the LGV Lyon-Marseille for a few hours, and is reported to have started from an aire de repos on the A7 near Valence. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on July 31, 2022, 20:28:02 And again today - the relatively unusual event of a person struck by a TGV on a high-speed line (Paris-Bordeaux). Described as 1 km north of Gare de Vendome Villiers sur Loir, which is not the one in Vendôme (it's 4 km away). The train stopped 1 km past the station, with 2-3 hour delays once the line reopened. I guess the point about it being today is there are more trains and passengers than usual.
Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: stuving on September 19, 2022, 13:16:35 The only trial to come out of this accident, of the coach driver, starts this morning in Marseille. Views on on whether she did drive through the barrier or not are still divided as they always were, notwithstanding the BEA-TT report. Nothing new of any significance has emerged since. For some, the trial will finally decide, but no doubt some will never be convinced.
The trial itself is huge - 123 "civil parties" (or more), with a right to legal representation. It's the first trial to be shown by CCTV in another room (in Perpignan), following a change in the law. In some ways it's a surprise it's only scheduled to last three weeks. SNCF are not directly involved, except as witnesses. Their request to be a "civil party" has not been accepted, but of course the court's decision could in effect find them at fault. Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: broadgage on September 20, 2022, 14:55:09 What I find surprising is that neither the train, nor the bus, nor the crossing were equipped with CCTV and recording.
Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on October 26, 2022, 12:28:04 The court has - at last - just handed down its verdicts: Guilty for SNCF (SNCF Infra at the time) with a fine of €300,000, not guilty for the individual PW engineer at SNCF and for SNCF Réseau (the infrastructure manager, was RFF). The specific charge sounds odd outside France , but implies negligence in its duty to ensure safety, plus being a repeat offender (adds a third to the fine) - fair enough, in the sense that it's not the first time such an accident has happened. The fine recognises the much greater cost to SNCF of compensating the victims and families.
No word of any appeal, and I can't really see why SNCF would want to. And if that's it, it's less than ten years end to end - not slow at all, as these things go! Title: Re: Train crash at Br^tigny-sur-Orge - multiple fatalities - 12 July 2013 Post by: stuving on October 26, 2022, 13:49:01 Here's a report of that in English from Euronews (https://www.euronews.com/2022/10/26/french-rail-operator-sncf-fined-over-fatal-2013-train-crash-near-paris):
Quote French rail operator SNCF fined over fatal 2013 train crash near Paris Access to the comments Comments By AFP with Euronews • Updated: 26/10/2022 - 13:29 France’s national rail operator has been convicted of manslaughter over a deadly train crash near Paris nine years ago. SNCF was found criminally responsible for the accident, which killed seven people and injured more than 400 others. The 3657 Intercity Paris-Limoges train derailed at Brétigny-sur-Orge station, south of the French capital, on 12 July 2013. Investigators later found that a broken metal bar had caused the train to leave the tracks and hit the station platform. On Wednesday, the court in Evry found SNCF guilty of involuntary injury and manslaughter and fined the French state company €300,000. But former SNCF employee Laurent Waton and SNCF Réseau, a subsidiary company responsible for managing the railway line, were cleared by the court. Waton had carried out the last surveillance of the track eight days before the accident. Victims’ associations had accused SNCF of failing to maintain the track, which led to "the decay of the suburban network". The French company had acknowledged its “moral responsibility” for the derailment but claimed that the accident was caused by an undetectable defect in the steel. But the court found that the metal bar had been damaged since 2008 and had been poorly maintained for five years. "This negligence in monitoring the core is definitely linked to the derailment," the judge said on Wednesday. The verdict can be appealed. Title: Re: Animals on French trains Post by: stuving on October 27, 2022, 23:26:15 And for some people, their best friend is not a dog but a surf board ... or a double bass? From The Strad (https://www.thestrad.com/news/fury-as-double-bassists-barred-from-french-trains/15648.article):
Quote Fury as double bassists barred from French trains Size restrictions on SNCF trains exclude double bassists from travelling with their instruments, as musicians share their stories of discrimination and being ‘treated like thugs’ The French national train service SNCF continues to restrict musicians travelling with large instruments, including double basses, causing large public outcry within the musician community. SNCF currently states the maximum size for an item of luggage is 130cm x 90cm (approximately 4ft 2in x 3ft), while a double bass typically stands at around 190cm in its case. In 2021, an open letter published in Le Monde was signed by 45,000 people, illustrating the struggles faced by those denied access on board trains with large instruments. Since then, the size restrictions have remained in place for musical instruments, much to the concern of double bassist Sébastien Boisseau, who illustrates that the restrictions have had heavy repercussions on travelling double bassists. ’We are shocked to be treated like thugs and offenders, while traveling with a valid ticket,’ said Boisseau in a statement published by Radio France. ’We are afraid of not being able to arrive at the place of the concert, of losing our commitments. Traveling with these old, fragile, expensive instruments is already stressful, but at the moment, anxiety dominates when buying an SNCF ticket.’ Boisseau highlighted many instances where double bassists were fined for attempting to travel with their instruments. He describes the case of Sarah Murcia, who was fined €50 on the Paris-Bordeaux line in October 2021. ’One of the controllers advised me to change jobs!’ she cried. Another bassist Stephen Harrison was forced to disembark a train in June 2022 when officers took issue with Harrison’s bass in the train vestibule. Most recently in September 2022, bassist Leïla Soldevila was fined €150, as it was claimed her double bass posed a threat to customer safety on board. Boisseau states that such measures, as well as preventing travel with full mobility, deprive the musicians the opportunity to participate in the collective effort to fight climate change, as many have no choice but to drive. ’The instrumentalists assume this choice of rail transport [is] the most respectful for the environment… they need the SNCF at their side and not against them!’ SNCF states on its website that there are no size restrictions for suitcases, travel bags and backpacks, strollers, bicycles and skis. SNCF has recently lowered its pricing to allow passengers to bring pets on board for €7, regardless of the animal’s size or the length of journey. ’The SNCF adopts a discriminatory attitude and refuses to a minority of musicians the service which it offers to all the population,’ said Boisseau. Title: Re: Animals on French trains Post by: grahame on October 28, 2022, 16:21:35 Noting that folding bicycles are allowed where rigid ones are not, could the double bassists not use instruments with folding necks when they are away from home?
Title: Re: Animals on French trains Post by: JayMac on October 28, 2022, 16:44:02 Also noting that there are no restrictions on suitcase and backpack sizes. Perhaps there's scope there to design a squared off suitcase that can hold a double bass. There are also soft cases available for double bass with straps and shoulder harnesses. I suggest the musicians argue these are oddly shaped backpacks. :P
Title: Re: Animals on French trains Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 28, 2022, 17:59:16 The quoted article suggests the 130 x 90cm limit applies to any item of luggage. In the context of this thread, I wonder if it also applies to accompanying animals? If not, maybe a horse could be taken on board – with or without folding neck? !!!
Title: Re: Animals on French trains Post by: stuving on October 28, 2022, 18:42:11 The quoted article suggests the 130 x 90cm limit applies to any item of luggage. In the context of this thread, I wonder if it also applies to accompanying animals? If not, maybe a horse could be taken on board – with or without folding neck? !!! But later on it says no limits for suitcases and other bags - which sounds very odd. SNCF's own version on line (https://www.sncf.com/en/passenger-offer/travel-for-everyone/luggage-on-board) (dated yesterday!) shows there are two clesses of thing involved. Some have to fit in the limit of 130x90 cm, and covers musical instruments, disassembled bikes, and surfboards or snowboards (all must be in a bag or case), plus scooters and folding bikes (must be folded). There is no size limit for cases, bags, backpacks, rigid bikes, skis, and pushchairs (must be folded). Title: Re: Six children killed in collision between train and school bus in France - 14 Dec 2017 Post by: Hal on November 18, 2022, 15:57:43 The bus driver has been sentenced to five years in prison, of which four suspended. But she is still in hospital, having collapsed in the court a few weeks ago.
Title: Deerailment at Carcassonne station - 23/11/22 Post by: stuving on November 24, 2022, 12:54:50 There was a big derailment last night of a train of containers in Carcassonne station. By big I mean that it was a big train, it ran derailed for 7 km, and stopped on the exit from the station after tearing upo the track and the edge of the platform. It's also on an important line - the main route east-west across the south from Toulouse to Narbonne and along the coast to Marseille. A big crane is on its way from Lyon - resumption of the local train is given as Sunday, which sounds bit optimistic.
This report from LIndépendant has pictures and a video. (https://www.lindependant.fr/2022/11/23/carcassonne-un-train-de-marchandise-deraille-en-gare-de-carcassonne-et-entraine-400-metres-de-voie-la-circulation-interrompue-10822874.php) (https://images.lindependant.fr/api/v1/images/view/637e5d7f103dda10e9717b83/large/image.jpg?v=1) Title: Re: Deerailment at Carcassonne station - 23/11/22 Post by: stuving on November 24, 2022, 14:56:00 Since the train is still sitting on the track (or what's left of it), the big crane coming to lift the remains is a rail crane. I guess they may take containers off separately. There are 28 wagons in all, though I'm not sure all are container flats.
Reopening will initially be just one track. For the other one, relaying it over 4.3 km is quoted as taking until mid-December and costing €13M. Title: Re: Deerailment at Carcassonne station - 23/11/22 Post by: Mark A on November 24, 2022, 15:44:08 Off topic: not knowing France well, and moved to check for diversionary routes between Toulouse and points east, the short answer is no. (The long answer is that there are some sights on Google Streetview that are a diversion in themselves, this being one. The viaduct being behind the camera, you'll need to turn round).
There seems to be a platform there too, shame it's not a formal station. https://www.google.com/maps/@44.1258279,2.3314445,3a,75y,347.63h,99.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sP7KHJrpHdg-Wy8ftiPtJIA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m2!1e1!1e4 Mark Title: French Rail Strikes Post by: Clan Line on December 23, 2022, 11:42:28 I read in today's paper that the French railways are also suffering strike action over the Christmas period. SNCF have stated that they will refund would-be passengers with double the fare they paid if they cannot travel. Any chance GWR, SWR, TPE, Avanti, etc, etc, etc........................ ???
Title: Re: French Rail Strikes Post by: brooklea on December 23, 2022, 11:51:23 Think of the inflation that would stoke, as people rush to invest in First Class Anytime Returns, confident of rapidly doubling their money! ;D
Title: Re: French Rail Strikes Post by: stuving on December 23, 2022, 13:09:17 The refund/rebooking plus "exceptional" 200% compensation applies to SNCF-marketed services: TGV(INOUI/OUIGO) and Intercités, which are all reserved places. For TERs they refer you to the relevant region. But that 200% whether you travel or not, for which e-mails are already going out, is obviously a big safety net, like the guarantees offered during Covid-time, to encourage customers to trust the proven untrustworthy.
In fact this strike, caused by a group of controlleurs, but negotiated by the unions for them, has just been settled. That is too late to save Christmas, but removes the threat of similar at New Year. Unless of course someone else wants to join in! Title: Re: French Rail Strikes Post by: TonyK on December 23, 2022, 15:06:35 Think of the inflation that would stoke, as people rush to invest in First Class Anytime Returns, confident of rapidly doubling their money! ;D It would be my luck to buy four 1st Class Anytime from Nice to Calais, then read that the strike has been called off at the last minute. Title: serious incident at Gare du Nord Post by: infoman on January 11, 2023, 07:09:50 several persons injured at the station and a person has been neutralised.
Breaking news from Sky news. (Edited to correct station name in case of ambiguity) Title: Re: serious incident at Gara du Nord Post by: GBM on January 11, 2023, 07:49:48 https://news.sky.com/story/paris-attack-man-neutralised-by-police-after-several-injured-at-gare-du-nord-12784080
Title: Re: serious incident at Gara du Nord Post by: PhilWakely on January 11, 2023, 13:02:26 https://news.sky.com/story/paris-attack-man-neutralised-by-police-after-several-injured-at-gare-du-nord-12784080 Quote Within a minute, off-duty police officers returning home from a night shift shot the attacker three times. I am not sure whether to be worried, or reassured by that statement - an OFF-DUTY policeman carrying a gun! Title: Re: serious incident at Gara du Nord Post by: grahame on January 11, 2023, 15:28:32 I am not sure whether to be worried, or reassured by that statement - an OFF-DUTY policeman carrying a gun! Gun culture varies the world over; be informed rather than just worried or re-assured? An opposite extreme to the UK is the USA ... and I have stories I could tell; I have had a gun waved at me a couple of times by young Americans (and I would wager that both were loaded). So ... off duty police being armed (and I have a close encounter there too) if just "deep breath and do nothing silly" - at least the deputy sheriff in question was trained, which one of the youths probably was not! I'm noting in the US news that a 6 year old shot his teacher the other day. Title: Re: serious incident at Gara du Nord Post by: Electric train on January 11, 2023, 17:03:53 https://news.sky.com/story/paris-attack-man-neutralised-by-police-after-several-injured-at-gare-du-nord-12784080 Quote Within a minute, off-duty police officers returning home from a night shift shot the attacker three times. I am not sure whether to be worried, or reassured by that statement - an OFF-DUTY policeman carrying a gun! It's not uncommon for Police Officer in Europe to keep their fire arms at home when not on duty Title: Re: serious incident at Gara du Nord Post by: infoman on January 11, 2023, 19:13:04 Was I wrong to post this info on the trip advisor sight?
Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on January 24, 2023, 15:42:14 Today services from the Gare Paris Est were hit for an unusual reason - sabotage. Overnight someone opened some cable ducts and cabinets, poured petrol on the cables, and lit it. The result was the destruction (as working cables) of 600 cables in 48 conduit channels. This was near a major signalling centre at Vaires-sur-Marne, controlling the line out of Paris Est, so all services are cancelled, except Transilien via Émerainville and a few TGVs switched to Paris Nord. Maybe tomorrow, maybe not is the current estimate for resumption.
The news media (and SNCF and the government) have studiously avoided so far suggesting it might be linked to the current round of protest/agitation about pensions. But that must be a possibility, bearing in mind that it might not even be the fringe of the political groups, more the hangers-on who are always looking to have a bit of a riot or smash things. There was another railway news item today that has got pushed to the side, as if there is a quota for railway news.That was a TER on the line up the valley to Moutiers that hit, and cut in half, a coach at a level crossing (at Cevins). The bus was empty, and its driver the only serious casualty, but the train was ripped open and a few passengers were injured. The coach driver may be able to explain why he was apparently stuck on the crossing. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on January 24, 2023, 19:44:26 Maybe sabotage isn't as rare as I thought. There were two similar events in 2021: in June near Valence and in October in four places at once, all on LGVs. I don't think any culprit has ever been identified.
And one correction to the earlier report: it's now clear it was 48 cables, so must be 600 wires or circuits, that were involved. So repair of most of that overnight and during tomorrow is plausible. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on January 26, 2023, 12:25:47 SNCF did, indeed, get around half their services running on most lines from yesterday morning, and most of the rest by the afternoon. That looks impressive, since those trains were running while a lot of the wires were being worked on.
Assuming these installations are reasonably modern, wire wires can't be going very far - anything beyond the (very large) track network at Vaires would go by fibre, or at least trunk interconnection. So presumably it's a matter of how many tracks through Vaires can be got working. That still implies a lot of flexibility, to run through an area with half its signalling being worked on. One odd point in the reporting is that one line affected was that to La Ferté-Milon, and that's the last non-electrified line in the Ile-de-France. The wording suggests that was a reason it was running, so I guess some (at least) of the cables controlled the OLE power. Maybe that makes it easier. Title: Re: French Rail Strikes Post by: stuving on January 29, 2023, 12:16:57 The refund/rebooking plus "exceptional" 200% compensation applies to SNCF-marketed services: TGV(INOUI/OUIGO) and Intercités, which are all reserved places. For TERs they refer you to the relevant region. But that 200% whether you travel or not, for which e-mails are already going out, is obviously a big safety net, like the guarantees offered during Covid-time, to encourage customers to trust the proven untrustworthy. That souped-up compensation was so different from the standard one that a new system was set up to process claims. And guess what - it doesn't work properly (yet)! One explanation is that a quarter of the 200,000 claimants had cancelled their tickets, meaning the record of it was deleted and manual processing is needed. But a lot of the rest are still waiting, or (for example) making new claims/complaints for the replacement of vouchers that were incorrectly made out and in some cases invalid. Title: 100 B€ to be spent on French regional railways Post by: stuving on February 24, 2023, 16:03:14 I posted about last November's announcement of "RER métropolitain" plans as a minor point in another thread (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=26967.msg328526#msg328526), not thinking it would amount to much. Well, it has amounted to a much bigger announcement, at least. From Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/france-transport-borne/france-plans-to-invest-100-billion-euros-in-rail-infrastructure-by-2040-idINL8N354297):
Quote France plans to invest 100 billion euros in rail infrastructure by 2040 PARIS, Feb 24 (Reuters) - France plans to invest 100 billion euros in rail transport by 2040 as part of a government push to reduce the country’s carbon footprint, the government said on Friday. The plan, aimed at expanding and upgrading the rail network, includes launching express commuter trains similar to the Paris RER system in major cities, Prime Minister Elisabeth Borne said. The announcement seeks to tackle perceived inequalities between Paris and other parts of the country when it comes to public infrastructure, exacerbated by soaring energy costs that have made transport expensive for millions of commuters. Of course pre-announcement of a lot of spending can be quite cheap, even more so if it's also partly a re-announcement. It's finding the cash when it's needed that hurts. Mind you, French governments have a better record for actually carrying out their expensive promises than ours. And as usual for French infrastructure projects, they will be raiding other piggy-banks as well as their own: Quote France would make the planned investments together with national rail operator SNCF, the European Union and local governments, she [Elisabeth Borne] said. Title: Re: 100 B€ to be spent on French regional railways Post by: Noggin on March 03, 2023, 19:54:59 There's a little more substance at https://www.railtech.com/infrastructure/2023/02/28/new-railway-deal-for-france-100-billion-by-2040/?gdpr=accept
Bear in mind with French public transport that there's a "Versement Transport" - basically a payroll tax of 2.85% in Greater Paris and a bit less elsewhere which gives some fairly big pots of cash to pay for this stuff. Much as with the UK, there's a huge amount of income inequality between Paris and the French provincial cities, whilst the big cities are overcrowded and short of housing, so there's probably an element of a "leveling up" agenda. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on June 10, 2023, 12:35:26 It's holiday season already, isn't it, even if not yet the peak months of July and August. So guess what happens. Yesterday there was an interruption to services out of Gare Montparnasse (local as well as main line). Its cause is a bit mysterious, since there are reports of explosions at the site (Saint-Arnoult), but SNCF say a bird hit a train and then the caténaire. That train was not much delayed, they say, but services were stopped for at least a couple of hours and delayed for most of the evening.
There were also issues at gare du Nord: a train/supply failure in the station throat yesterday, and a broken caténaire on Thursday. So, not too serious as these things go - I guess they are just limbering up for high summer! Title: Re: Another accident at a French level crossing involving a "convoi exceptionnel" Post by: stuving on June 25, 2023, 16:40:34 They are still at it - after a bit of a lull. On Monday evening, a TER from Epinal to Belfort struck a convoi exceptionnel transportant un mât d’éolienne near Le Clerjus. A dozen minor injuries among the passengers; nothing worse than a broken ankle.
I think that rather lucky result was because, while the road is at nearly 45o, the low loader was pushed at one end and straightened up. It also meshed with the train, which wasn't pushed onto its side, but just stopped very quickly. Very few pictures; the best is from Vosges Matin (credit DR): (https://cdn-s-www.vosgesmatin.fr/images/0AB586B4-7427-4C2D-AF06-FC57CC655C1C/NW_detail_M/title-1687213552.jpg) As to what this mast of a wind turbine really was, I've seen a prefabricated section on the road. Whether it could be a whole mast - presumably 80-100 m and at least as many tonnes - I'm not sure. The carrier is LASO, the big Portuguese haulier, which has been expanding across Europe recently (including opening in the UK recently). You'd think they would be reasonably clued up about the very variable rules on his kind of transport across Europe, but even so ... Crossing 51 is not really close to Le Clerjus (or indeed anywhere); it's just the commune. The closest station is at a hamlet with the oh-so-French name of Bains-les-Bains. Title: Puy de Dome cog/rack railway Post by: Marlburian on July 09, 2023, 17:23:59 Just finishing watching today's fantastic day's racing up the Puy de Dome in the Tour de France. As a sidelight the cog/rack railway was of interest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panoramique_des_D%C3%B4mes), though I did wonder about its intrusiveness into the natural landscape, especially the large overhead girders at the terminus near the summit.
Before the modern railway was laid (1986) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFbHgH1053M) At least one the trains had been re-painted to honour the Tour. Highlights on ITV4 at 1900 tonight - and on Eurosport 1 at 2000. Title: Re: Puy de Dome cog/rack railway Post by: Rob S on July 10, 2023, 11:11:38 I hope they don't start installing one on Alpe d'Huez, Mont Ventoux or the Tourmalet ;D Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on July 29, 2023, 19:40:36 You may have worked out this is chassé-croisé weekend, so there must have been a massive disruption of the trains. This year it was not (or not yet!) due to the heat itself, but the violent storms that the heat has set off. A lightning strike near Paris took out the signals on the LGV from Paris-Montparnasse (again!) yesterday afternoon, and while it was declared fixed by 19:30 there was by then a big backlog.
SNCF say that no trains were cancelled as a result, but they were leaving an hour or two late and where staff ran out of hours some were far later than that arriving. Still, not so bad for one of these panne géante things. And if your trip is the start of a three or four week holiday, a few hours delay will soon be forgotten. Title: Crossing Paris Post by: grahame on September 18, 2023, 14:18:43 From The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/london-paris-stations-change-trains-b2413331.html)
Quote Why is it so difficult to change trains in Paris to reach the south of France? Rail travel to the south of France should be the norm. But a significant impediment to luring airline passengers is that most journeys from the UK to the French Mediterranean coast require a change of trains – and stations – in Paris. Eurostar from London arrives at the Gare du Nord. High-speed TGVs for the south leave from the equally magnificent Gare de Lyon. Title: Re: Crossing Paris Post by: stuving on September 18, 2023, 14:30:52 From The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/london-paris-stations-change-trains-b2413331.html) Quote Why is it so difficult to change trains in Paris to reach the south of France? Rail travel to the south of France should be the norm. But a significant impediment to luring airline passengers is that most journeys from the UK to the French Mediterranean coast require a change of trains – and stations – in Paris. Eurostar from London arrives at the Gare du Nord. High-speed TGVs for the south leave from the equally magnificent Gare de Lyon. Well, of course. French railways have always been, obviously enough, built for .... Parisians. Title: Re: Crossing Paris Post by: ChrisB on September 18, 2023, 15:04:34 And as Simon Calder was told, many times, on x/Twitter when he launched this article, the clever people change at Lille for the south of France, rather than Paris.
Title: Re: Crossing Paris Post by: grahame on September 18, 2023, 16:33:30 Well, of course. French railways have always been, obviously enough, built for .... Parisians. Indeed. the British equivalent is arriving into Waterloo from ... Portsmouth or Southampton or Salisbury ... to continue on via Eurostar. The same is many huge cities which were there before the railways came and they terminated outside the built up area. On that basis why is HS2 coming in to Old Oak rather that terminating at Amersham with an onward TfL service? Title: Re: Crossing Paris Post by: ChrisB on September 18, 2023, 16:42:51 There is an onwards Tfl service from OOC ???
Title: Re: Crossing Paris Post by: Worcester_Passenger on September 18, 2023, 17:08:05 I'd go along with one of the quotes in the article that recommends bus 91 as a way of getting from Gare du Nord to Gare de Lyon - without the nastiness of the RER.
And indeed, after Gare du Lyon, it continues to Gare Montparnasse. But it looks as if RATP have been thinking about the needs of the station-to-station traffic because it calls at Gare de l'Est on the way. Title: Re: Crossing Paris Post by: infoman on September 18, 2023, 17:12:29 When I travelled from the U.K. to Marseille in 2016,I changed at Lille,not sure if the service still runs though.
Title: Re: Crossing Paris Post by: Mark A on September 18, 2023, 17:59:03 If time and luggage allows, there are several easy walks to be had. Gare du Nord and Est are practically in each others laps. Saint Lazare isn't quite straightforward to find, and Montparnasse is a bit of a hike, but for the others, from the Gare du Nord, one approach is to head in the direction of the Gare d'Est, go a bit further, pick up the canal and then track that south to the Place de la Bastille.
Gare de Lyon is easy from there, while for Austerlitz, keep on through the Place de la Bastille, pick up the canal as it emerges from underground, and head down to the Seine, across the bridge and there's the station. Mark Title: Re: Crossing Paris Post by: eightonedee on September 18, 2023, 18:10:00 Following the posts above, I do urge anyone thinking of taking the train to the south ( or even the west) of France to investigate changing at Lille. My wife and I have had three trips to Avignon and one each to Bordeaux and Lyons and it has "worked a treat". You simply take a lift or stairs to the upper level and descend to the departure platform when your onward train is due.
We once had to walk from Lille Flandres to Lille Europe for a return connection, but compared to the hassle of crossing Paris on the Metro that was a small inconvenience. Title: Re: Crossing Paris Post by: Kempis on September 18, 2023, 22:34:56 We had to transfer from the Gare du Nord to the Gare d'Austerlitz in August, to catch the night train to Briançon. Line 5 of the Métro is direct (there's a bit of a walk at Austerlitz, perhaps because of the building works there), and you can buy Métro tickets from the buffet on the Eurostar.
Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on September 25, 2023, 14:11:16 If that thunderstorm didn't count, then this is this year's pagaille à la gare Montparnasse - and it's a bit late for the holiday season, or even its heatwave extension. So yes, once again it was the line out of Paris Montparnasse that was affected, with no electricity for all of Sunday afternoon. A break in a cable at the entrance of a tunnel at Massy was blamed, though it's not clear what sort of cable or tunnel was meant.
Massy is a kind of Old Oak Common about 12 kn from Montparnasse, and 10 km further down the line (Marcoussis) there was a train stuck in a tunnel for five hours. For some reason this was not only evacuated (on foot) but a rescue train was needed for the passengers. That may be a consequent or separate train failure, but in any case it was a mess inside due to five hours enforced occupation by the passengers (who were somewhere else by then). Services recovered during Sunday night, though some were very late arriving. Monday morning services were predicted to be all OK, but in fact significant delays have been reported. This sort of thing has now happened so often that "SNAFU" describes it exactly. Do the French use a literal translation of that? No, apparently it's still Snafu. Title: "Two trains in the same platform" at Rennes Post by: stuving on September 25, 2023, 15:23:44 I wonder why SNCF have been making such a big fuss about their new mid-platform signals at Rennes, permitting "two trains in the same platform" (2TMV). This appears, from limited evidence, to be fully signalled platform sharing. There are also platform markings, of course, and rather complicated ones by the look of it. After Rennes, this will be rolled out across other suitable stations - not just short of capacity, but with long platforms and a suitable mix of train lengths and movements. They seem to be aiming at two trains that depart in opposite directions, so either one or (more likely) both must be originating.
Apparently at Rennes they could previously manage to share platforms only seven times a day "for safety reasons", presumably because of the extra times and staff needed to supervise the permissive working. This kind of signalling is described as already in use in Germany and Switzerland, and the Rennes project has cost 12.6 M€. Only French reports so far; here's a couple of older ones from 20 Minutes (https://www.20minutes.fr/societe/4025917-20230301-rennes-desengorger-gare-sncf-va-stationner-deux-trains-voie) and SNCF (https://www.sncf-reseau.com/fr/reseau/bretagne-pays-de-loire/deux-trains-sur-meme-voie-en-gare-rennes/avancement-et-documents), and a new picture from Le Parisien. (https://www.leparisien.fr/resizer/4GTzwnj1Leuo0q8-9bvnfr3REyg=/932x582/cloudfront-eu-central-1.images.arcpublishing.com/leparisien/2KFEMWA7DZE53NZPVJSYXYDNZI.jpg) Title: Re: "Two trains in the same platform" at Rennes Post by: Noggin on October 01, 2023, 21:54:21 Ummm, isn't this what they do many, many times a day at Temple Meads?
Title: Re: "Two trains in the same platform" at Rennes Post by: Red Squirrel on October 02, 2023, 09:37:34 Indeed. Until recently they used St Andrews Crosses rather than signal lights. And the trains don't even necessarily need to be going in opposite directions; I've been stuck on a northbound train on an even-numbered platform (i.e. at the country end) waiting for another northbound train on the odd-numbered end of the same platform to leave to clear our path.
I have noticed that trains on even-numbered platforms seem to stop a long way short of the 'join', sometimes beyond the canopy, which can be irksome! Title: Re: "Two trains in the same platform" at Rennes Post by: grahame on October 02, 2023, 09:44:17 Indeed. Until recently they used St Andrews Crosses rather than signal lights. And the trains don't even necessarily need to be going in opposite directions; I've been stuck on a northbound train on an even-numbered platform (i.e. at the country end) waiting for another northbound train on the odd-numbered end of the same platform to leave to clear our path. I have noticed that trains on even-numbered platforms seem to stop a long way short of the 'join', sometimes beyond the canopy, which can be irksome! Stacking is not new ... it was even done routinely at platform 2 in Swindon from December 2013, with a 2 car 150 parked up on long turnover on the Cheltenham service parked against the buffers while a single carriage 153 buzzed in from Westbury and back out at the extreme end of the platform. That has now changed, with the Cheltenham trains running to / from London, and the Westbury service of necessity now 2 or 3 carriages. Title: Re: "Two trains in the same platform" at Rennes Post by: GBM on October 02, 2023, 09:46:25 Joining still done at Plymouth.
Title: Re: "Two trains in the same platform" at Rennes Post by: eightonedee on October 02, 2023, 12:10:30 Also happens (or used to before I retired last year!) on the bay platforms 4-6 at Reading. Sometimes two North Downs trains would be on one platform, so confused passengers would try to get in the nearer/inner one only to be shooed further up the platform to join "the front train". On one occasion in the evening we arrived at one of the platforms behind an SWT train that was due to depart shortly (so therefore in front of it from a departure point of view) resulting in loud unhappy comments from its crew.
Back in the 1980s, a late train back home from London would involve a change for Tilehurst, then my home station. On Platform 8 (if I recall the old numbering correctly - the through platform on the relief lines on the central island platforms) there would be a single car "Bubble Car") that would be the stopping train towards Didcot on the west end, and a 3-car unit at the eastern end that would be a "stopper" back towards London. The west facing bay platform 6 (remember that?) was occupied by a Midland region unit that was the something past one unit that stopped everywhere on the way to Birmingham and connected unofficially with the Midnight Riviera for those who ignored "pick-up only" at Reading for an even later train home! Title: Re: "Two trains in the same platform" at Rennes Post by: stuving on October 02, 2023, 12:12:51 Joining still done at Plymouth. And lots of other places, both here and in France - which was the point of the question "why are SNCF making such a big fuss?". The key seems to be in the claim that making this a signalled move saves a lot of time. That does not seem to be the case, or not so marked, her so I guess the rules in France are more restrictive and cautious. If so, that is one reason there would be less reason to do it here, though I'm sure here are those who would advocate it just to reduce the risk. The other reason given, that it's a cheap alternative to building platforms, applies much more in France. At Rennes the platforms are all 400 m long, and apart from double-length TGVs there can't be many trains that long. However, the same logic does apply here, for the short local/regional trains we have. The final selection criterion is having congestion and suitable movements: basically two trains leaving in opposite directions. That can't be very common here or in France. Title: Re: "Two trains in the same platform" at Rennes Post by: Sulis John on October 02, 2023, 13:51:51 Two trains scheduled to depart in opposite directions may well be a frequent occurrence if you have services terminating from opposite directions and not running through. Think Ormskirk and mentally remove the buffer stops, for example.
Title: EU Members stop accidently at Disneyland Paris Post by: GBM on October 17, 2023, 07:56:05 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67129490
Hundreds of members and staff of the European Parliament had a surprise when their train from Brussels to the French city of Strasbourg ended up at Disneyland Paris instead. Title: Re: EU Members stop accidently at Disneyland Paris Post by: CyclingSid on October 18, 2023, 06:47:49 If it was our lot you would just assume it was a visit to a different fantasy land!
Title: Re: EU Members stop accidently at Disneyland Paris Post by: Kernow Otter on October 18, 2023, 14:21:09 Increasingly difficult to differentiate between the two Mickey Mouse organizations.
Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: stuving on December 12, 2023, 19:50:10 Two more night train services from Paris started at the weekend - to Aurillac on Sunday and from Berlin (with Nightjet) yesterday. Like other night trains they offer seats, couchettes, and cabins, (also typically) neither runs every night. The news report I saw of the Aurillac ones - reintroduced after a gap of 20 years - was convinced these trains would be going de-dum de-dum (which sounds very similar in French).
Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Mark A on December 12, 2023, 20:45:40 This Aurillac? Attempting to work out the route...
Mark https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9280482,2.4003895,10973m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e2?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9280482,2.4003895,10973m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e2?entry=ttu) Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Mark A on December 12, 2023, 21:00:38 *Finds the route* OK, the Aurillac train will use infrastructure such as this. (The overbridge at the tunnel portal is the same road that crosses the line, hairpin-bend-climbing the valley side...)
Mark https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9799216,2.0284642,3a,75y,272.68h,83.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdE9boWfjTG6DhC7nvsZ4wQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e2?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9799216,2.0284642,3a,75y,272.68h,83.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdE9boWfjTG6DhC7nvsZ4wQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e2?entry=ttu) Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: stuving on December 12, 2023, 22:39:02 *Finds the route* OK, the Aurillac train will use infrastructure such as this. (The overbridge at the tunnel portal is the same road that crosses the line, hairpin-bend-climbing the valley side...) Yes, a bit rustic, isn't it? Of course the minimalist railway line still leads to a proper-sized station in Aurillac. And the train fits that rustic image - three carriages tacked on the end of the existing night train to Rodez (and Albi on Fridays), where it stays for five hours before its final trundle up to Aurillac. It calls at the major metropolises of Laroquebrou, Bretenoux-Biars and Saint-Denis près Martel. Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Mark A on December 13, 2023, 09:30:48 Now wondering if a: accompanied bikes would be ok and b: if they are, whether there'd be the same shenanigans imposed as at Edinburgh, where passengers with cycles, when the train is divided, are required to be up and about to transfer them between portions.
Mark Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: stuving on December 13, 2023, 12:55:06 Now wondering if a: accompanied bikes would be ok and b: if they are, whether there'd be the same shenanigans imposed as at Edinburgh, where passengers with cycles, when the train is divided, are required to be up and about to transfer them between portions. Mark Somewhere I saw, in a description of the new generation of sleeper stock, that they include space for bicycles. The French services are still using 70s Corail coaches, albeit done up. I imagine the new ones they are ordering are likely to be the same as in Austria etc. Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: Mark A on December 13, 2023, 14:02:23 *Finds the route* OK, the Aurillac train will use infrastructure such as this. (The overbridge at the tunnel portal is the same road that crosses the line, hairpin-bend-climbing the valley side...) Yes, a bit rustic, isn't it? Of course the minimalist railway line still leads to a proper-sized station in Aurillac. And the train fits that rustic image - three carriages tacked on the end of the existing night train to Rodez (and Albi on Fridays), where it stays for five hours before its final trundle up to Aurillac. It calls at the major metropolises of Laroquebrou, Bretenoux-Biars and Saint-Denis près Martel. Ah, Saint-Denis près Martel. Looks like that's now the lower end of the preserved railway the 'Chemin-de-fer touristique du Haute Quercy', which may still offer, as well as travel over an ambitious piece of railway engineering, the experience of being in an open sided carriage behind a small steam loco doing its best in a curved single track tunnel on a steep climb, the loco exhaust somehow being very well behaved and confining itself to the roof of the tunnel. Mostly. Mark https://trainduhautquercy.info/the-journey-railway/?lang=en (https://trainduhautquercy.info/the-journey-railway/?lang=en) Title: Re: Macron announces big investment in French railways Post by: stuving on December 13, 2023, 15:34:36 Ah, Saint-Denis près Martel. Looks like that's now the lower end of the preserved railway the 'Chemin-de-fer touristique du Haute Quercy', which may still offer, as well as travel over an ambitious piece of railway engineering, the experience of being in an open sided carriage behind a small steam loco doing its best in a curved single track tunnel on a steep climb, the loco exhaust somehow being very well behaved and confining itself to the roof of the tunnel. Mostly. The publicity for the train touristique says it goes to Saint-Denis lès Martel, but only so as to come back again. Historically the commune was Saint-Denis lès Martel, but the station half a mile away was named Saint-Denis près Martel - presumably on the grounds that lès was Occitan not French. So it's hard to say where the train reverses. This is the upper valley of the Dordogne, and that river has had its turn to flood this week (there's been an awful lot of it about in France for well over a month). I've not heard this area mentioned, but the stream next to Saint-Denis is ominously named la Tourmente. Title: Free public transport comes to Montpellier (count the 'l's...) Post by: stuving on December 21, 2023, 13:26:39 The introduction of free travel travel on the city's public transport network was announced some time ago, but today is the first day of full operation. From Euronews (https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/04/16/this-european-city-is-making-public-transport-free-for-citizens-from-december) (last month):
Quote Montpellier is getting ready to launch its free public transport scheme ahead of Christmas. Montpellier in southern France is getting ready to introduce free public transport on 21 December. It will become the largest French metropolis to boast such a scheme. From next month, local residents will be able to utilise a free transport pass across the city’s bus and tram network. The scheme aims to slash emissions, reduce pollution and improve accessibility for the city’s residents. “By introducing free transport, we are bold in taking a great measure of social justice, of progress, which works for the ecological transition,” tweeted the mayor of Montpellier, Michaël Delafosse when the scheme was announced earlier this year. Montpellier has been experimenting with free transport on weekends since September 2020. In 2021, it extended this to weekdays for under-18s and over-65s. The further extension of the scheme is part of the city’s €150 million push for zero carbon mobility, which also includes investment in cycle lanes and the creation of a low emissions zone. Where else has free transport in France? Montpellier is far from being a trailblazer. In fact, French towns and cities have been rolling out such schemes since the country’s transport management was decentralised in 2015. However the majority of these have less than 150,000 inhabitants. With almost 200,000 inhabitants, Dunkirk is the largest city to have embraced free transport so far. After it introduced fare-free bus routes in 2018, passenger numbers increased by an average of 85 per cent. In this case it does not extend to trains, which the city does not run - and in any case the TER service is limited. Just one line along the coast, serving some villages, though trains are quite frequent. To benefit, residents have to go to the appropriate office and get a pass of the kind previously restricted to just the deserving (by age, mostly). Visitors still need a ticket, so presumably the existing purchase methods will continue - at least for now. The step up from Dunkerque is not that big really - less than double the population - but Montpellier ranks as a city not a town. Montpellier does have some previous for radical action to remove cars from the city centre, going back to the time of the long-serving and somewhat dictatorial mayor Georges Frêche. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on January 20, 2024, 19:45:06 And if it's a freezing cold January evening? An Intercités (so locomotive-hauled) train left Paris-Bercy for Clermont-Ferrand at 18:57 last night, due to arrive 22:31. But the loco broke down and its back-up had to come from Paris. So it was stuck with 700 passengers and no power - no heat or light - until the local fire & rescue and Red Cross turned up with emergency supplies of survival blankets and food.
Which isn't good, obviously. But why it was rated as a life-threatening incident is less clear. Help arrived after 2.5 hours, and the internal temperature never got below about 10o - so were there really passenger without seasonable outer clothing? The rescue dragged the train back to a station (Montargis) before swapping locos, which took time, so they arrived at 6:20. I assume these old Corail carriages at least have toilets that work without electricity! From SNCF's viewpoint, they will shortly get some new trains for these services (TGVs adapted to not be TGVs). The current materiel is thus on a make do and mend programme until withdrawal, and of course failures get more frequent. Title: Open access operators in France Post by: stuving on March 02, 2024, 16:17:45 We had news of Railcoop before (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=25962.msg317969#msg317969), trying to set up a worker-owned operator of long-distance regional trains.
There are also two groups setting up similar operations but of high-speed trains. All of these are slowly working their way through the required steps: approval by the regulator (ART), negotiation of a track access agreement with SNCF Réseau, raising their starting capital, and signing a deal with a manufacturer to buy the trains (not in that order). Le Train wants to operate in the west of France, linking Nantes with Bordeaux partly on LGVs but not going via Paris. They have a deal with Talgo (https://www.railtech.com/rolling-stock/2023/01/25/talgo-to-supply-le-train-with-high-speed-trains/)for ten trains, for delivery by 2025. Kevin Speed (https://www.kevin-rail.com/english) (no, really!) aim to do a Lumo, more or less, from Paris to Lille, Strasbourg, and Lyon. The are touting very low prices (down to €3), and targeting frequent travellers with a discount based on recent ussage. They have just announced an access deal with SNCF Réseau, and got a lot of TV coverage from it, but don't have a deal for trains yet. Their trains will be branded "ilisto" - I have no idea why. ("Kevin" has become quite popular as a name in France recently, and has a "popular", as opposed to elitist, image.) Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on March 04, 2024, 12:58:31 As expected, Systra has been mis en examen (roughly charged) and SNCF is expected to follow in a few days. That allows for formal questioning, though how cautioning works with a company I'm not sure. Finally, with all the urgency we've come to expect of the French legal system, the trial of several bits of SNCF, including Systra, began today. Here from RFI: (https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20240304-trial-of-deadly-2015-high-speed-train-crash-opens-in-paris-tgv-transport) Quote Trial of deadly 2015 high speed train crash opens in Paris The French national rail operator, SNCF, along with two of its subsidiaries and three rail workers are due to appear at the Paris criminal court at the start of a two month trial for their role in the accident involving a high speed TGV train on a test run in 2014 that left 11 people dead and 42 injured. Issued on: 04/03/2024 - 11:53 The SNCF and its subsidiaries Systra and SNCF Réseau are on trial for “injury and involuntary homicide” for the 14 November 2015 accident that killed 11 of the 53 people on board the train and injured everyone else. The defendants are facing 88 civil parties, including survivors who were not employees, but were on board the train anyway. The crash occurred near Strasbourg, in eastern France, on what was supposed to be the final test run of the new high-speed line connecting the city with Paris. The train struck a bridge and derailed, breaking in two as it landed in the Marne-Rhine canal. Systra, the company responsible for railway tests, is being prosecuted for its decision to try a test speed of 330 kilometres – the train’s upper limit - rather than the 187 kilometre per hour operating speed. A 2017 investigation that lead to the charges against the defendants concluded the train’s drivers had not received the necessary training to carry out such high-speed tests. Non-employees on board The three companies are accused of failing to take precautions to prevent “inappropriate actions of the driving team in terms of braking”. On board the train were employees as well as their guests, including four children, and one of the questions in the trial is why non-employees were on board. SNCF and Systra, as the test operators, and the project owner, SNCF Réseau, face fines of up to €225,000 if found guilty in the trial that runs through 16 May. Two SNCF employees, including the train’s driver, and one Systra employee will also be on trial, facing maximum sentences of three years in prison and fines of up to €45,000 each. During the investigation, the lawyers for all the defendants suggested that they would be pleading for acquittal. Including the driver in this trial seems particularly harsh, given what he's been through and how responsibility was described in the report as lying mainly with others. No doubt there would have been others but they wel killed in the accident. Mind you, I don't think (without thoroughly revising the subject) the points picked out in that piece are the key ones. They may of course be present in a much longer legal text. Title: Re: At least eleven dead as French TGV test train derails near Strasbourg - 14 November 2015 Post by: stuving on March 04, 2024, 19:56:06 Two SNCF employees, including the train’s driver, and one Systra employee will also be on trial, facing maximum sentences of three years in prison and fines of up to €45,000 each. That's a bit misleading; all three of the people who collectively drove the train are on trial. The reports are not using the same terminology as the BEA-TT report (based on SNCF's documents) either. Those three were the hands-on driver, a driver manager who told him what to do and when, and a Systra engineer who handed over the "script" to the other two and then was meant to monitor the trial and answer technical questions. Title: Re: Slow but sure. New services on France's underutilized railway lines. Post by: stuving on April 17, 2024, 11:32:46 This lot have not been making much news for a while, but it now appears they have been trying to find backers with real useful money to spend on stuff - and failing. There is, of course, no substitute, even if you do have some keen volunteers line up. This from Railway Gazette International (https://www.railwaygazette.com/business/railcoop-on-brink-of-liquidation-as-financing-gap-stymies-restructuring-hope/66359.article):
Quote Railcoop on brink of liquidation as financing gap stymies restructuring hope By Railway Gazette International17 April 2024 FRANCE: Open access co-operative Railcoop is expected to be formally liquidated on April 29, the company President Nicolas Debaisieux has confirmed. The collapse of the co-operative comes after it was placed into judicial administration on October 16 for a period of up to six months. With this period now expiring, a hearing was held at the administrative court in Cahors on April 15 to begin arranging the formalities for creditors, two weeks ahead of the formal liquidation. While this would bring to an end the idea of using a co-operative model to launch open access trains such as Railcoop’s planned Lyon – Bordeaux service, Debaisieux believes that the project could still be salvaged through outside investment. Railcoop had been planning to restructure itself into an operating business and an asset management ‘opco’. The co-operative has been negotiating with investment fund Serena Partners and a rolling stock leasing company with a view to progressing the proposed restructuring. According to Debaisieux, these investors had secured 60% of the €11m required to establish the planned Lyon – Limoges - Bordeaux open access service, but this still left a €3·5m gap in the business plan... Title: Re: Slow but sure. New services on France's underutilized railway lines. Post by: grahame on April 17, 2024, 15:03:14 Quote Slow but sure. New services on France's underutilized railway lines. The subject line struck me when it came up again this morning From Amiens, 9 platforms (at least) the other day. For the next three hours - 7 departures and all to different destinations; I had 2 hours to wait for my "connection" - arrived from Lille and onward service to Rouen only running a few times each day. Another wait there of well over an hour for a train to Dieppe. (http://www.wellho.net/pix/despthin.jpg) Title: disability issues getting around Paris Post by: infoman on May 21, 2024, 04:17:05 Nicky Fox the Disability campaigner had an article on Sky news about Paris Olympics starting in July 2024.
It seems that it will be very hard to get around to the events if your in a wheelchair for the games. Title: Re: disability issues getting around Paris Post by: GBM on May 21, 2024, 04:32:15 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cyrlr5m4rj0o
It is "absolutely scandalous" that more has not been done to improve accessibility on Paris's underground trains network ahead of the Paralympics, a leading French disability charity has said.................... Title: Re: disability issues getting around Paris Post by: stuving on May 21, 2024, 09:15:55 It would have needed a lot more than seven years notice to do much with the Metro.
RATP have followed a plan for accessibility, which is to fully adapt one mode or line at a time, starting with the less impossible ones. Trams, being the most recent, were accessible from new. They claim that so far they have made all buses in Paris intra muros accessible unaided, by raising kerbs and specifying suitable buses. Of course being accessible does not guarantee that there is room for a wheelchair - and I'm not sure how helpful Parisians are when faced with this. RER stations as almost all accessible, but the trains need a ramp provided (and, or course, the procedure is different for their lines and the ones SNCF operate!). Metro lines will be done one at a time as rolling stock is renewed and each line upgraded - so far only the newest line (14) is available. I guess that even finding room for a lift at street level won't be easy at most stations, given how the Metro was built. Title: Re: Slow but sure. New services on France's underutilized railway lines. Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 29, 2024, 20:18:21 Sounds an interesting idea, my main misgiving is the large number of stops proposed, 29 on one route ! I can see the merit of stops in order to enjoy attractions en-route, purchase food and drink ... 29 stops sounds very tedious though. Perhaps fewer might be better ? I never thought I'd read member broadgage here complaining that 29 stops to collect food and drink was too many. :o Title: Grand Paris Express - ast last! Post by: stuving on June 24, 2024, 20:27:25 I thought we had a thread about the Grand Paris Express, but apparently not - just a couple of mentions in
One of the aspects of it that should familiar from London is that, of the bits of new line originally promised for the Olympics, some have not quite made that deadline. But two bits have, just, and opened a couple of weeks ago (Métro line 11) and today (line 14). Line 11 has been extended to the east, which is not particularly useful Olympicswise. Line 14 has been extended to the north to St Denis-Pleyel, so will serve the Stade de France. At the south end it now serves Orly airport. Both of those are going to heavily used by Olympic crowds, so will need to work right out of the box. Line 14 is in effect the first of the new high-speed Métro lines, and will be reclassified as part of Grand Paris express when that is a thing. Title: Re: Grand Paris Express - ast last! Post by: Noggin on June 27, 2024, 08:21:49 If you want an excuse to try out the new Orly extension of Line 14, EasyJet do Bristol to Orly a couple of times a day.
Not only are the flights usually cheaper than CDG, it's usually quite a lot faster to get through Orly as well, particularly on arrival, as you don't get lumped with all the transatlantic passengers. The other handy thing is that there are now two independent rail options (three if you include the tram) unlike CDG which just has the one RER line - when that's delayed it can be carnage. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: stuving on July 12, 2024, 19:35:43 This year's first attempt (no doubt more serious ones will happen during the Olympics) is unusual.
Quote A TGV linking Paris to Nantes on Thursday had to be stopped at Sablé-sur-Sarthe (Sarthe) in the evening, because of a 'strong smell'. The firefighters were mobilized and the 1,200 passengers were evacuated. The 1,200 travellers on a Paris-Nantes Ouigo train were evacuated on Thursday evening at Sablé-sur-Sarthe (Sarthe), due to a "strong and irritating" odour from the toilet, AFP has learned from SNCF and the prefecture. While some made their own way onward (it was still before 9 pm) the rest were stuck for 6 hours until a replacement train arrived after 2 am. Nothing harmful was identified, so it's hard to know serious it was. Title: Re: If it's an August weekend, there must be a TGV on fire ... Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 12, 2024, 21:31:42 Compare, in the UK, Voyagers. Just live with it! ::) :o ;D
Title: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: TaplowGreen on July 26, 2024, 09:08:13 https://news.sky.com/story/vandals-target-paris-olympics-by-setting-fires-to-damage-high-speed-train-routes-13184855
Also affecting Eurostar - SNCF advising people not to travel. Someone's trying to sabotage the Olympics it would seem. Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: Phantom on July 26, 2024, 10:13:11 I have a horrible feeling that this is just the start of many problems Paris will experience today
Hopefully it goes no further than distruption Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: broadgage on July 26, 2024, 11:16:17 Reports are coming in of "an incident" closing a major airport in France. I have posted re. this in the "buses and other waya to travel forum http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=28943.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=28943.0)
Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: infoman on July 26, 2024, 11:32:11 BBC news are stating that Croisilles is the location where the live pictures are coming from, which is ten miles south of Arras.
Would the classic route be Calais-Abbeyville-Amiens-Paris,although not sure if it has over head wires though. Having said that if you can get to Lillle then Paris is approx 140 miles(hire a car?) Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: stuving on July 26, 2024, 13:13:49 The nature of these sabotage attacks is pretty clear - all done at the same time and at main junctions used by TGVs. One attack (on the Sud-Est line) was spotted and they escaped, but that no doubt will give a little more evidence. In each case cables have been cut and then set on fire in ducts.
There was something similar done in January last year, and I don't recall hearing who did that. There might be a link, if only as a model to copy. While there are always diversions on the classic lines, they don't have the capacity for what is one of SNCF's busiest days. So some trains are running with severe delays, others get cancelled. I'm sure SNCF try to manage this as best they can, but clearly a lot of people who specifically wanted to travel early today will end up being let down. Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: 1st fan on July 26, 2024, 20:31:11 A lot of news oulets are reporting Russian links to this, with some naming a Russian with alleged FSB ties who has been arrested by the French. Someone (and I’ll have to be careful here) told me much earlier in the day that this was the Russians and authorities were concerned that this was only the start of things.
Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: broadgage on July 27, 2024, 02:30:29 Russian responsibility sounds likely to me. France is AFAIK the only nation to have seriously considered sending troops to help Ukraine remove the russian invaders.
Other possibilities include militant or extreme Islam. Not that likely IMHO, Such groups tend to prefer more dramatic attacks, such as running amok with large knives or firearms and killing people at random. There have been many such attacks in France and elsewhere, including at least one on a train. Or perhaps home grown communist/extreme socialist groups ? Possible but not that likely in my view. I doubt that such groups have the resources and organisation to carry out several simultaneous attacks. No matter whom is behind these attacks, they are probably pleased with the results and might well carry out repeat attacks, either in France or elsewhere. Other groups without any connection to these attacks might well be thinking "we could do that" Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: TaplowGreen on July 27, 2024, 07:54:49 ...........simply couldn't have happened in 2012, we had it all covered......
Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: infoman on July 27, 2024, 09:56:41 Do the media get told to exaggerate the situation?
Okay, 15 London to Paris journeys each set has maximum 750 passengers, equates to 11,250 carried each day add Paris to London means 22,500 passengers each day. Where do they get 800,000 travelers will have their travel plans disrupted? Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: TaplowGreen on July 27, 2024, 10:01:53 Do the media get told to exaggerate the situation? Okay, 15 London to Paris journeys each set has maximum 750 passengers, equates to 11,250 carried each day add Paris to London means 22,500 passengers each day. Where do they get 800,000 travelers will have their travel plans disrupted? Er.....because not everyone heading to Paris is going via that specific route? Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: broadgage on July 27, 2024, 10:08:27 And many French families were travelling not to Paris but going on holiday elsewhere in France or further afield, and the quoted figure for disrupted journeys would reasonably include those not DIRECTLY affected but suffering from overcrowding
Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: TonyK on July 27, 2024, 10:31:25 And many French families were travelling not to Paris but going on holiday elsewhere in France or further afield, and the quoted figure for disrupted journeys would reasonably include those not DIRECTLY affected but suffering from overcrowding Exactly. The last Friday in July is traditionally the start of the départ, where Paris changes populations as those who can escape head for the coast. It's a very busy day for road and rail alike. A lot of news oulets are reporting Russian links to this, with some naming a Russian with alleged FSB ties who has been arrested by the French. Someone (and I’ll have to be careful here) told me much earlier in the day that this was the Russians and authorities were concerned that this was only the start of things. Every sparrow that falls in Russia these days is blamed on Ukraine. Similarly, Russia is the current first thought when looking to apportion blame for mischief elsewhere, and it could be the malefactor in this case, directly or by proxy. France, however, has a long history of protest, leading to stunts that would appal the Just Stop Oil prisoners, and one of the many groups within could be the culprit. I shall reserve judgment. Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: stuving on July 27, 2024, 12:41:29 Often an event like this leads to reporters diving into their (virtual) cuttings file, and pulling and putting out whatever they find. If there are only previous instances of speculation based on prejudice, and no-one identified as culpable, that gets rehashed.
Politicians and the media in France are generally being quite cautious about that kind of naming the usual suspects. In the past the security types would, as in most places, have the left marked down as most likely to. But after some earlier railway sabotage (labelled "Tarnac") with a different modus operandi, they picked on a group and eventually prosecuted them. And the whole case fell apart, for want of any real evidence. So since then there has been a bit more care exhibited, in public at least, about confusing prejudice for facts. I'm wondering about the kind of recreational rioters (aka Black Blocs) that hide in the back of big demo marches until they spot a chance to smash a load of windows. They have shown the ability to plan and organise, and get away with it, and any original political motivation has been left behind by wanting to play at secret agents. The lack of any kind of claim of or threat of further damage does suggest that strong political beliefs are not involved. Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: stuving on July 28, 2024, 09:34:56 An e-mail was sent to several media organisations yesterday claiming responsibility for these attacks, so some of its content now been made public. Obviously the timing means its source might have nothing to do with whoever did it, and one report describes it as more a message of support.
The wording, as often in such cases, comes from a particular dialect of agit-prop, here ultraleft/anarchist. It starts by saying its from a "delagation inattendue", which I take to mean an uninvited delegation to the Olympics. It criticises the games as "a celebration of nationalism, a huge staged dramatisation of the subjection of peoples by states". Official word is that the investigators think they will know who they are looking for soon. I imagine that's based on evidence found at the sites, especially of the failed attack, rather than any incoherent message. Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: TonyK on July 28, 2024, 22:22:40 The senders of those messages may or may not be the perpetrators of the sabotage. If they are not, they certainly wouldn't be the first to try to take credit for someone else's handiwork. The terrorist group who committed the many outrageous murders in Moscow last March were most annoyed at the Kremlin government's attempts to attribute the attack to Ukraine. I hope the French investigators sort this one out quickly and accurately before it encourages copycat attacks.
Now - does anyone know the French for "saboteur"? Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: broadgage on July 29, 2024, 01:43:41 Now - does anyone know the French for "saboteur"? Freedom fighter ? patriot ? Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: TaplowGreen on July 29, 2024, 07:10:13 Now - does anyone know the French for "saboteur"? Freedom fighter ? patriot ? ............always be wary of an overhead shot.......... ;) Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: Western Pathfinder on July 29, 2024, 08:56:30 One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist .
Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: stuving on July 29, 2024, 10:46:48 Last night a proper suspect was arrested -according to AFP and their friends in the police. Mind you, quite why anyone would be daft enough to be driving around at that time of the morning with wire cutters, SNCF keys, and the kind of literature that gets you identified as a left-wing extremist is a puzzle.
There were also a number of vandalism/sabotage cases on fibre-optic links of telecoms companies, taking out several of their services locally. There was one similar on Friday morning too, with a claim from one of the left/anarchist splinter groups (groupuscules) that have always been a French speciality. Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: TonyK on July 31, 2024, 19:58:26 Last night a proper suspect was arrested -according to AFP and their friends in the police. Mind you, quite why anyone would be daft enough to be driving around at that time of the morning with wire cutters, SNCF keys, and the kind of literature that gets you identified as a left-wing extremist is a puzzle. My thoughts too, on the literature matter. Maybe he was hoping to radicalise the cops who came for him, and hadn't thought the idea through completely. Now - does anyone know the French for "saboteur"? I knew already, just a little tease. The term derives from the French sabot, a wooden clog worn by aggrieved workers, who implemented early forms of industrial action by messing things up. They didn't use the clogs to damage anything, as walking home with one bare foot was uncomfortable, but the name stuck. So I understand, others may know better. Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: stuving on July 31, 2024, 20:47:14 Now - does anyone know the French for "saboteur"? I knew already, just a little tease. The term derives from the French sabot, a wooden clog worn by aggrieved workers, who implemented early forms of industrial action by messing things up. They didn't use the clogs to damage anything, as walking home with one bare foot was uncomfortable, but the name stuck. So I understand, others may know better. My little dictionnaire étymologique probably does know better; certainly it knows different. The verb saboter once meant something like to clog (in this sense) - to stamp, make a loud noise, or shake. But now it means roughly to bodge: to work shoddily or carelessly, damaging the work or machines. So sabotage (as the verbal noun) can only be done by the workers themselves, which probably was its main sense when first applied to industrial workers of a Luddite tendency. Of course it may turn out that this has been done by very left-wing railway workers: there certainly are some - whole unionsful of them - in France. Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: TonyK on August 01, 2024, 15:03:50 My little dictionnaire étymologique probably does know better; certainly it knows different. The verb saboter once meant something like to clog (in this sense) - to stamp, make a loud noise, or shake. But now it means roughly to bodge: to work shoddily or carelessly, damaging the work or machines. So sabotage (as the verbal noun) can only be done by the workers themselves, which probably was its main sense when first applied to industrial workers of a Luddite tendency. Of course it may turn out that this has been done by very left-wing railway workers: there certainly are some - whole unionsful of them - in France. I am obliged - I don't own such a detailed reference work. I did understand that the word saboter derived from the word sabot, in much the same way that there is a link between the use of the English clog as verb or noun. It's all fascinating, if slightly off thread. Title: Re: French railways falling victim to "massive" sabotage today Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 01, 2024, 19:17:37 ... first applied to industrial workers of a Luddite tendency. That'll be me - albeit inadvertently: I just don't understand modern technology. ::) Title: Some French trains have new luggage regulations. Here’s how to avoid a fine Post by: ChrisB on September 11, 2024, 21:17:47 From EuroNews, via MSN (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/some-french-trains-have-new-luggage-regulations-here-s-how-to-avoid-a-fine/ar-AA1qgxQl?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=5a00535a83f34df3bc587900a588cd69&ei=265)
Quote France has introduced new rules regarding luggage on trains with fines for travellers who don’t comply. Limits on the number and size of suitcases will become obligatory on France’s high-speed services in mid September. Earlier this year, Italian operator Trenitalia also proposed stricter regulations on luggage that would have limited passengers to two items per person. However, the proposal was contested by consumer rights groups and was withdrawn. What are the new luggage rules on trains in France? In February, French national operator SNCF announced new limits for the amount and size of luggage on high speed TGV InOui and Intercité trains. Passengers are now limited to two large pieces of baggage measuring a maximum of 70cm x 90cm x 50cm per person plus a smaller item like a backpack or laptop case with dimensions of up to 40cm x 30cm x 15cm. Passengers are also allowed to carry a handbag or purse. Items including pushchairs and buggies, sports equipment and musical instruments do not count towards the luggage limit. The new regulations came into force on 15 February but without fines for noncompliance. Starting from 15 September, passengers now face a €50 fine for exceeding the allowance. What are the existing luggage limits on French trains? Those travelling on the TGV budget OuiGo services are already subjected to baggage regulations. Passengers holding a standard ticket are permitted one piece of luggage measuring up to 36cm x 27cm x 15cm and one piece no bigger than 55cm x 35cm x 25cm. Passengers can pay an extra charge to bring additional items. Local TER trains don’t impose a luggage limit but storage space can be limited and passengers must ensure baggage is stowed safely and does not become a hazard for other travellers. Standard and Standard Premier ticket holders on the Eurostar travelling between London and Paris are permitted two items of baggage and one handbag. There are no weight restrictions but passengers must be able to carry and lift their suitcases without requiring assistance. UK next, I wonder? Title: Re: Some French trains have new luggage regulations. Here’s how to avoid a fine Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 11, 2024, 21:40:36 Earlier this year, Italian operator Trenitalia also proposed stricter regulations on luggage that would have limited passengers to two items per person Quote UK next, I wonder? Only two surfboards, then. ::) Title: Re: Some French trains have new luggage regulations. Here’s how to avoid a fine Post by: infoman on September 12, 2024, 01:48:18 In my perfect west country World,with its IET's and cross country units.
I would like to see in the luggage compartments images of cases be shown "up right" so that you could get three(maybe) cases in an upright position. Travelers who plonk there cases in the "flat" position can cause problems later in the journey when other joining passengers plonk their cases down in the "flat" position How many of us have seen less able travelers trying to get their case from "the bottom of the pack" under neath two very heavy cases? Title: Re: Some French trains have new luggage regulations. Here’s how to avoid a fine Post by: TaplowGreen on September 12, 2024, 08:19:31 Eurostar limits seem reasonable but how would GWR manage a similar system if it were to be introduced (which may not be a bad idea given the type of scenarios that infoman suggests)?
Title: Re: Some French trains have new luggage regulations. Here’s how to avoid a fine Post by: Electric train on September 12, 2024, 10:11:24 Having used Trenitalia a few times in the last few years the amount of luggage and other item passenger load onto trains verges on ridiculous. It seems almot like they are moving house.
Not only are the aisle blocked but often seats occupied by luggage and then there is the time taken to load and off load the items, with the dwell times on HSS being only 2 or 3 mins delays are inevitable not to mention the usual Italian "arguments" between the passenger and officials and other passengers. ;D Title: Re: Some French trains have new luggage regulations. Here’s how to avoid a fine Post by: stuving on September 12, 2024, 11:46:43 I guess this is part of a general trend - luggage on wheels makes it possible for people to turn up with more that "as much as you can carry yourself". So unless we go back to porters and trolleys and baggage cars there will be limits.
I did wonder whether SNCF would include in this revision something to resolve the issue of double basses (discussed earlier (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=26495.msg327019#msg327019)). But no - all musical instruments and surfboards are still subject to the unmeetable 90 x 130 limit. The only items not subject to this are skis, and non-folding bicycles (with reservation and paying €10). All "special" items replace one of your two big (bag/suitcase) items. The rules for bicycles look odd to me. Whether it is folded or not, you are allowed panniers as well (presumably filled). But while for a folded bike+panniers you only get you one item of hand luggage, if it's wheeled on you get one big item like a suitcase too. Surely it's the cycle tourer that will be taking all they need in panniers, while you might take a folded one as an extra for a "normal" trip? Title: DRAISY - a new tiny battery train from SNCF Post by: eightonedee on October 05, 2024, 13:02:53 As perhaps a lighter item after the gloomy posts about the resilience of Dawlish's lifts in bad weather and list of 36 scrapped/suspended rail projects - here's what SNCF propose for lightly used branch lines (perhaps an alternative for the Parry People Mover)-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SUAuxuDy1k Title: Re: DRAISY - a new tiny battery train from SNCF Post by: stuving on October 05, 2024, 13:46:08 As perhaps a lighter item after the gloomy posts about the resilience of Dawlish's lifts in bad weather and list of 36 scrapped/suspended rail projects - here's what SNCF propose for lightly used branch lines (perhaps an alternative for the Parry People Mover)- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SUAuxuDy1k It reminds me of the Revolution VLR (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=25065.msg307036#msg307036) (which seems to be still ongoing, though quietly). Draisy is part of a French government programme funding ideas for decarbonisation, so rather like FOAK. The manufacturing partner is Lohr, whose main business is road-rail systems (road trailers on rail flats). It started in 2022, and they plan to have prototypes running in 2027. Title: Re: DRAISY - a new tiny battery train from SNCF Post by: grahame on October 06, 2024, 12:31:15 I worry about a diddy little train with a diddly little capacity going through a breathtakingly beautiful route with spectacular tunnels and viaducts which probably cost an arm and two legs to maintain. There may be a case for the "contraflow" train where the main service is something beefier. As ever, I 'look local" and fancy the 07:10, 09:30, 11:30, 13:30, 16:30, and 18:30 Westbury to Swindon with a 159, returning at 08:30, 10:30, 12:30, 15:30, 17:40 and 19:30, and Draisy on the 05:30, 08:30, 10:30, 12:30, 15:00, 17:30, 19:30 and 21:30, returning on the 06:30, 09:30, 11:30, 13:30, 16:00, 18:30, 20:30 and 22:30. But I do suspect Draisy would be overwhelmed within the year.
Title: Re: Free public transport comes to Montpellier (count the 'l's...) Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 25, 2024, 23:47:20 Montpellier does have some previous for radical action to remove cars from the city centre, going back to the time of the long-serving and somewhat dictatorial mayor Georges Frêche. Hmm. We used to have one of those, in Bristol. ::) Title: TGV driver's suicide in France Post by: stuving on December 25, 2024, 19:50:03 This seems particularly shocking. I suppose strictly the element of tragedy is the same whoever is involved, but it is certainly a surprise. From france24 (and originally AFP) (https://www.france24.com/en/france/20241225-french-train-driver-suicide-causes-delays-christmas-travel):
Quote Train driver's suicide causes Christmas travel delays across France A train driver's suicide caused widespread delays on Christmas Eve and into Christmas Day in France, with some 3,000 passengers affected during the busy holiday period. Issued on: 25/12/2024 - 17:49 The suicide by a train driver on the job has caused widespread delays in France's rail traffic, operator SNCF said Wednesday. Some 3,000 train passengers have been affected by delays in services between Paris and southeastern France that started Tuesday and spilled over into Wednesday. Around 10 high-speed (TGV) trains were delayed by up to five hours Tuesday after the suicide on Christmas Eve, an exceptionally busy time for travel. The prosecutors' office in Melun, southeast of Paris, told AFP that the driver appeared to have jumped to his death from the moving train. His body was discovered later near the tracks. Without a driver operating the controls, the train's automatic emergency procedure kicked in, causing the train to stop, the office said. An investigation into the circumstances of the death was ongoing. SNCF confirmed the driver's death, saying he "committed suicide while the train was moving". There was no threat to the safety of passengers on the train, or to services elsewhere in the network, SNCF added. Train traffic was "resuming progressively" Wednesday, SNCF said, warning however of some possible further delays. Title: Re: TGV driver's suicide in France Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 25, 2024, 20:06:03 Wow. That is indeed shocking. I offer my sympathy to his family and friends. :(
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