Great Western Coffee Shop

I got the 10.32 from Maidenhead to Paddington this morning and was then on the 12.10 from St Pancras to Bedford and made a few comparisons..

First Great Western:

Seal everyone inside a 3 carriage train (no way of opening windows and air con not working) that was full by Slough and so hot I nearly had to get off.. It made me feel very unwell - not that I could have got off after Slough anyway..Outside felt 10 degrees cooler when I finally got off at Paddington.. 25ish miles in 55 minutes. No ticket check

East Midlands Mainline

Seal everyone inside a probably 10 carriage train (I didn't count but two trains stuck together - one half had a buffet the other half had a trolley).. but.. the air conditioning was working.. 45ish miles in 40 minutes..My ticket was checked.

I am very fed up with FGW.. I know they run less trains at weekends and use the time to perform maintenance on the other trains but do they really have THAT many carriages that need maintenance every weekend?

Most of the problems stem from decisions made by 20 years ago by Network South East. It was NSE who ordered the 2 and 3 carriage Turbos with ineffective air-conditioning. NSE at the same time introduce Driver Only Operation on the London-Oxford/Bedwyn routes which is why you have no ticket checks. EMT have trains are only about 8 years old and have already benefited from a fairly substantial refurbishment in the last couple of years. The trains are designed for a completely different purpose to that of the Turbos, they're Intercity rather than Suburban trains so a more comfortable, roomy interior is to be expected. As they're also an Intercity operator the trains have a Guard, whose role is to check tickets. As for the number of carriages, 10 carriages is not the norm on the route, normally they're just 5 but the service on a Sunday is greatly reduced compared to a weekday so there are enough sets to form 10 carriage trains.

Jo

See my comments here about a short-formed HST on a busy weekend service - http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12607.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12607.0)

I too wonder how many sets are spare at weekends.

If only FGW would therefore stop some of their HSTs at this end of the line occasionaly rather than all the time at the other then...That would solve the problem a bit.. I am surprised they didn't make someone seriously ill today.. I  commute most days so I am used to it but this was extreme.. I had a seat and it still made me feel very bad.. I only stayed on after Ealing Broadway as the thought of getting up was marginally worse..

Incidentally the friend I was visiting mentioned that there is the same problem with First Capital connect trains from Bedford.. The clue is in part of the name of the train company maybe?  ;D

I am going to be asking FGW just that.. Although I could almost tell you what their first reply will be.. lack of rolling stock etc etc.. I think their second reply may be a bit better... or third if not  ::)

To compare Maidenhead with Bedford in terms of provision of intercity services is not really fair. The Bedford stop is equivalent to Reading or maybe Didcot. There are of course a lot of unrefurbished 319s that ply the route south of Bedford on services similar to the Thames Turbos. They may even find they way onto the GWML in due course.

It's just not that easy though, the main lines don't have the capacity to have frequently stopping services, and often the trains themselves don't have the capacity either. HSTs are slow to brake and accelerate and slow at stations because of the slam doors. The majority of the EMT services calling at Bedford are modern DMUs which can brake and accelerate more quickly than HSTs and also have power doors so are quicker at stations. Furthermore the Midland Main Line is less intensively used than the Great Western Main Line.

Or maybe it's to do with the type of service they're running, both are suburban services. Ask any Greater Anglia or Southeastern commuter for their opinion and you'd hear broadly similar criticisms. Perhaps a more useful parallel between FCC and FGW is the age of the stock used, FCC's Class 319s are around 25 years old, FGW's Turbos around 20. They both underwent Network South East led modernisations at a similar period.

Aah well.. All they need to do is open the windows then and not pretend the air conditioning works.. Oh and run longer trains on a Sunday.. They REALLY can't be maintaining that many carriages on a Sunday...

The problem with stopping HSTs east of Reading at the weekends, particularly on Sundays, is that on many weekends only two of the four lines are open.

This weekend, for example, only the relief (slow) lines are open from Airport Junction to Tilehurst - with the exception of lines through Slough Station and Twyford.  Therefore if HSTs are to pass slower trains they have to be in the right place at the right time.  If you start putting in unplanned stops it will soon cause the timetable to fall apart.

Indeed, although my incredibly slow train this morning did swap over to the mainline at Slough and stopped there for a while and back over to the relief after which was a bit strange and no doubt held up a few trains or in fact let some through the relief line though I don't think I saw any..

Back to my original point then.. Put on more carriages.. And open all the windows..

I agree it won't help those sweltering in a hot train, but in your case Jo the train you were on, according to reailtimetrains, was held on platform 3 at Slough to allow a slightly late running train from Swansea pass "on the inside".  I suppose it made more sense to move you over to the small bit of the main lines which were open at Slough and hold you there rather than cross over the HST and then put it back on the reliefs after the station.

Well yes... Although I bet they were nice and cool on their train ;-)

In this case the chief culprit is DaFT and their failure for many years to instigate a planned rolling stock replacement as BR had run. I have seen 41/2 types of train on the TV services in 50 years. There is also the failure to electrify which is only now being rectified but is also causing problems as nobody will buy any new DMUs as they are making too much money out of written down 14Xs.

The services were

An irregular steam hauled 61XX service with 6 Non Corridoor compartment coaches towards, the end of steam of form regular interval servie was beginning to be introduced. Plus some Hall even Castle hauled (Henley) outer suburbans one even fast to and from Taplow!
 
Late 1950s

6 car 117 service to replace steam. Over time this gradually reduced to 3 car off peak but was regular interval. Occasionaly replaced by 31s and 3/4 four coaches (the half service) but very good!.

Early 80s

The Turbos which at the time were a vast improvement on the 117 and faster (no padding in the timetable) and more comfortable!. However, there were less units and a lot were 2 car.  It's a pity about the A/C on the 166 but NSE didn't have the money to put it right and the TOCs and ROSCOs weren't interested too busy sweating the fleet and the passengers.

The outer suburbans became more regular in NSE days with 47 and 50 haulage, up 10/11 Mark 2s, now replaced by Turbos and unsuitable HSTs as has been said above.

So the Turbo fleet is being sweated harder than ever, so maybe they do need all the units under maintenance on Sunday to ensure a relatively decent weekaday service.

So theren't aren't going to be any longer trians in the TV until the IEP and 319s?? start running under the wires and even then it will depend on how nay 319s?? we get. Aren't some promised to Liverpool Manchester?

The only consolation I can offer is that the TV is not the only area to suffer shortage of stock due to DaFT's decisions.

Amended to add:

A further complication with electrification resiganalling is that to amke maximum use of the increased capacity any EMUs cascaded to the TV will have to have ERTMS retro fitted which is not cheap!



 

The 117's were replaced early 90's surely?
I remember the Henley regatta one time in '93, when I first started work, it was a 117 and the doors wouldn't shut because there were so many people on board.

They did trial a new DMU type in the early 80's but nothing came of it.

It does seem less likely now that 319s will be transferred to the Thames Valley. Network Rail have mentioned a need for 110mph capability for EMUs in the Thames Valley which would rule out 319s. With more electrification now announced then when GWML electrification was first announced a home can more than likely be found for the 319s elsewhere. The original plan was splitting the fleet between Northern and FGW. Delays to the ordering of new Thameslink units by the DfT mean that it's now unlikely that 319s would be ready in time for the first stage of the Lancashire triangle electrification. It seems now that more Southern 377s will have to move to Thameslink, they have one batch of 377s being delivered now and a further batch of new units to be ordered soon and delivered much quicker than the Thameslink units. Moving 377s to Thameslink services will allow the 319s to move off North. Whether enough units would actual be available in time for GWML electrification as well as enough to move to Northern would surely have to be questioned anyway.

Yep you are right having used the line for 63 years timescales get a bit distorted. Remember the 201 units DEMUs pretty good. No underfloor engines!

As Southern Stag says it will be interesting to see what units we do get.

They did indeed - the Class 210.  Sadly only two were made - but parts of them live on in a new guise as coaches in SWT Class 455s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_210 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_210)

210 it is I always have been number dislexic

The original diesel Turbo train order was for class 165 trains only and for the NSE suburban services. Either central government or BR decided that air conditioning was not essential (or perhaps more likely would have added more costs to the order) for suburban trains.
The Class 166 Turbos were a supplementary order for longer (but not inter-city) routes and some were specifically allocated for the then Regional Railways running longer distant services on the Cotswold Line and an upgraded specification for them was included, including air-conditioning, carpeted floors, and bigger luggage areas. Unfortunately the air con was an add-on and not designed in and subsequent operators of class 166's, mainly Thames Trains and FGW found that maintenance of the air con was very difficult and so was allowed to lapse.
Maidenhead travellers would indeed prefer to have HSTs stopping for a faster service to PAD. However Cotswold Line travellers are continually complaining that CL trains stop at Maidenhead and more usually Slough to where very few CL travellers are going. I seem to recall that for the current FGW franchise, there were no Slough calls for CL trains but they were added after extensive protesting by the Slough campaigners. It is interesting that the recently published draft IEP timetable for discussion for the CL does not include the Slough stops so I guess the protestors will be out again.
You just cannot please everyone so the timetablers have a very difficult job.

There seems to be greater use of the Sunday morning services; increased events I guess. A few weeks ago I took the second 'fast' train of the day from Didcot to London which arrived from Oxford as an already 90% full 3-car turbo. However maybe the following Sunday would have been different.

Summer Sundays & Oxford = Tourists!

The reply to my email of complaint is below.. sigh... I've sent back a reply already.. I can't believe that ALL those carriages are being maintained on a Sunday.. That would take a lot of people to do that.. They CAN run longer trains on Sundays I'm sure..

I did also point out that my journey wasn't "uncomfortable" as per their reply but that it was "bordering on dangerous" as I felt it was and I've commuted for many years and I've never known anything like it..

If only they'd monitor the temperatures on the trains they've sealed the windows on..

Anyway.. thanks for reading my latest rant.. here is their reply as promised..

"Thank you for your email. I am sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

 I am sorry that you had an uncomfortable journey due to the air conditioning not working correctly when you travelled on our 10:33 service from Maidenhead to London Paddington on 7 July.

 We carefully monitor our passenger loadings to ensure that we make the best possible use of the rolling stock that we have available. Some of our services are formed of 3 carriages both at weekends and during the week although demand for services is not as great on a Sunday as it is at peak times during the week. This allows for essential maintenance to be carried out.

 We will strengthen services where we can to take into account any major events such as sports fixtures or concerts when passenger numbers are expected to be higher.

 Thank you for providing the time of your train. I have identified the Turbo unit and have reported the defect to our Defect and Essential Maintenance Team (DEM) at Reading depot for them to investigate further when the unit returns to the depot.

 On units fitted with air conditioning, the windows cannot be opened. This is to ensure that the system can function correctly to maintain the temperature inside the carriage in the same way that it would work in a car. I am sorry that this was not the case on this occasion and that you felt unwell at the end of your journey. Please accept my apologies for this.

 Thank you once again for bringing the matter to my attention. I am grateful for an opportunity to respond"

I think that while I appreciate that opening the windows doesn't help the A/C if it's actually working,  however, I think that in very hot weather when it can't cope even if working it would almost be better to turn the A/C off and open all the windows.

Another contrast bewteen St Pancras Bedford to Maidenhead Padd I once got a full English Breakfast between St Pancrcras and Bedford in an HST.