Title: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: DidcotPunter on June 12, 2013, 09:34:29 The government's Directly Operated Railways has submitted an application for a safety case to operate the GW franchise. So are the talks on franchise extension in trouble or is this a negotiating ploy by DfT. Or is this a normal contingency plan and the RMT are mischief-making?
http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=174667 Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on June 12, 2013, 09:46:31 This announcement comes from RMT, probably one the most major objectors to rail privatisation.
Only one sentence is official and I suspect that this is just safety back up procedure in case negotioations fail. The Conservative controlled coalition government will want to keep Greater Western where it is for both political and practical reasons so I would not read too much into the RMT statement. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Red Squirrel on June 12, 2013, 09:50:14 I will smile a knowing smile when Lord Crow of Shadwell becomes the first chairman of the fully-privatised re-integrated Great Western Railway...
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ChrisB on June 12, 2013, 10:03:19 DOR are just keeping alll options open.
There is a deadline of 13th (I think) October for agreement on an extension. DOR need these certificates in place before that date in order to continue running trains the day afterwards. I don't think the DfT will roll over for any money though - they will want to get a decent deal for the taxpayer. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: DidcotPunter on June 12, 2013, 10:13:57 I'm trying to remember but I think that DOR did something similar during the franchise extension negotiations with Virgin Trains. Can't recall if the RMT picked up on that!
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: anthony215 on June 13, 2013, 12:49:54 I'm trying to remember but I think that DOR did something similar during the franchise extension negotiations with Virgin Trains. Can't recall if the RMT picked up on that! Not they didnt I think and the DFT did something similar with the C2C franchise. Anyway Some of what I have read from the RMT during the last day or two is a bit of wishful thinking I think. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ChrisB on June 13, 2013, 14:00:24 Mark Hopwood put out a note, of which these are the last two paragraphs....
Quote In fact, the DfT has reiterated this position this morning in the following statement: ^Whenever the DfT enters negotiations for a new franchise agreement it has to ask Directly Operated Railways to carry out minimum preparatory work to protect passenger services. This is just a routine standard procedure and part of the Government^s sensible contingency planning. It does not relate in any way to how the negotiations are proceeding and it is wrong for the RMT to suggest otherwise.^ Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 05, 2013, 23:57:52 From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23201690):
Quote First Great Western submits rail franchise bid Train operator First Great Western has submitted its bid to extend its current contract by more than two years. It follows a request by the government earlier in the year asking if it could operate trains on the Great Western line for another 33 months. It followed the collapse of the West Coast Mainline deal. The First Great Western franchise includes services from London Paddington to South Wales, the Cotswolds and the West of England. Ten of the country's 16 rail franchises are due for renewal before the general election, expected in 2015. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ChrisB on July 06, 2013, 19:57:31 Glad to hear that as July 4 was the deadline....
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: grahame on July 06, 2013, 20:02:55 Glad to hear that as July 4 was the deadline.... DOR are just keeping alll options open. There is a deadline of 13th (I think) October for agreement on an extension. DOR need these certificates in place before that date in order to continue running trains the day afterwards. Does that mean that the DfT now have three months to consider the bid and decide (perhaps with a few bits of negotiation and bargaining in there), or would there be an earlier outcome? That October date sound very much like the date that the current extension must end. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ChrisB on July 06, 2013, 20:08:18 The current arrangement must funish in that date in October as its as far as the current franchise can legally be extended.
When the announcement of what follows is made, I din't know - but would guess it has to be while Parliament is sitting... Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: grahame on August 15, 2013, 21:28:11 I'm not sure if the views in this piece would be widely shared ...
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/136541? ... but it seems to be one of the few data sources talking about the timetable for this autumn. Any other links to offer, folks? Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: grahame on August 16, 2013, 07:11:39 From the Western Daily Press this morning
Quote Railway talks in 'chaos' claims The West's under-fire train company has dismissed as "baseless" claims that the negotiations with the Government over the new franchise are "teetering on the brink of collapse". The denial comes on the day the firm was named as the least popular rail company among passengers. First Great Western said the negotiations with the Department of Transport on a deal to run train services across Gloucestershire, Wiltshire, Avon, Somerset and the far South West were "in accordance with the schedule". It denied claims by rail unions that the talks were in trouble. Article continues at http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/Railway-talks-chaos-claims/story-19666499-detail/story.html Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: bobm on August 16, 2013, 08:03:28 Quote The denial comes on the day the firm was named as the least popular rail company among passengers. I am not sure that judging a company by the number of "negative tweets" it gets is terribly valid. People are much more likely to take to Twitter to vent their anger than praise - that is human nature. It also doesn't recognise that FGW and SW Trains have been among the more proactive in setting up on social media that some other train operators. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: trainer on August 16, 2013, 09:42:06 But it's cheaper to use Twitter than employ real journalists for stories.
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ChrisB on August 16, 2013, 11:07:23 The DfT also tweeted support in that they say negotiations are going to plan and a deal done within the timeline.
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: phile on August 16, 2013, 17:57:20 Bob Crow is ranting on again saying that Booking Offices are to be closed and staff made redundant to encourage people to book on line. If you don,t book on line you will be charged extortionate higher fares. Some people or companies don,t seem to be aware or don't want to be aware that there are still many people, especially the elderly, who do not have Internet access or are computer literate.
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Red Squirrel on August 16, 2013, 18:49:27 I presume it is still possible to book by phone?
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ellendune on August 16, 2013, 19:49:29 If they want us to book more by machine they are going to have to make the machines more intelligent so that they can give the same advice the booking office is required to give as part of their franchise.
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Dark Star on August 16, 2013, 20:25:35 First Great Western is the Worst Railway company I EVER worked for.
Shame as Mr Hopwood is a nice chap, with true intent, but he needs to take lessons in Snake charming. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Oxman on August 17, 2013, 00:04:58 I found FGW to be, on the whole, a good employer. I didn't work for any other railway companies, so do not have Dark Horse's vast experience. But I did speak to a lot of people who worked for other companies and found that many of them wished that they could work for FGW.
First Group worked hard to create a "group" mentality - not easy when trainmen never wanted to be associated with bus bandits. It has created a staff benefits site, which offers a wide range of buying benefits and heavily discounted travel on trains and buses for friends and families on First Group services. Before I retired, I used to organise days out for my friends - for example, a day out to St Austell (for the brewery and Charlestown - highly recommended) for a fiver a head. A good time was had by all and my friends thought FGW was wonderful! I know that, when FGW won the franchise and took over the former Thames trains and Wessex services, there was considerable resentment amongst the staff of those companies. I think this largely melted away in the East - most of the staff did quite well out of the single franchise. I suspect the resentment was more prolonged in the West. They are a funny lot out there! Anyway, I agree with your comments about Mark Hopwood - a true railwayman who would always give his support when it was needed. And I speak from personal experience. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ChrisB on August 17, 2013, 11:35:59 I can't believe people actually believe Bob Crow's banter.
Both the DfT and FGW have said he's talking bluster and the discussions are still on target for an October renewal. Phile - suggest you take this with a pinch of salt.... Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: JayMac on September 06, 2013, 13:14:52 Is no news good news?
With just five weeks to go until the FGW franchise ends on 12th October we still have no news on who will be running trains in the Greater Western franchise area from the 13th. It was January 31st when the original tender was cancelled and the DfT used a franchise contractual term to keep First Group operating the Greater Western franchise for another 28 weeks from it's original termination date of 30th March 2013. That's eight months in which to negotiate a deal, or for First Group to say "no thanks" or the DfT to say, "we're taking over". What the heck is taking them so long? Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ChrisB on September 06, 2013, 14:00:57 Senior management on Tuesday referred to Virgin "getting three days notice", and thus aren't panicking...
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on September 06, 2013, 19:06:14 I suspect that it is a case of bluff and counter bluff as each party seeks to get the best deal.
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Electric train on September 06, 2013, 19:30:35 I suspect that it is a case of bluff and counter bluff as each party seeks to get the best deal. There might be a bit of that, I think its more checking the dots are there and the tees are crossed in the contract and that all assumptions are dealt with Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Oxman on September 07, 2013, 00:54:06 Not sure that you can read too much into it, but FGW issued new staff passes recently which are valid for another year or so!
I think too much is being read into the lateness of the announcement. Its easy to suggest that there is a lot of haggling going on, with the "fat cats" at First attempting to screw every last penny out of the noble DFT. I would suggest though that the basics were agreed some time ago. The basic costs are known, the revenue for the next three years is fairly predictable, and the profit required by First and acceptable to the DFT will fall within a well-defined range. No big deal really. I would like to think that the reason it is taking so long is because there is an on-going discussion about how to take forward the development of the railway over the next few years (and the costs associated with this). There is plenty to talk about - the franchise holder will be significantly involved in all of the current infrastructure developments over the next few years. The DFT will have to fund the involvement of the franchise holder. Introducing new trains costs money. Some developments are revenue negative, e.g. disruption due to electrification, or completion of the Chiltern service to Oxford. However, I would also like to think that some of the discussion is about service development - trans-Wilts or the Portishead projects for example. I suspect the DFT would not want to be accused of freezing the railway for two years because of self-induced problems in the franchising programme, so I would expect to see some such developments announced with the franchise extension. Not surprising therefore that it is taking time to complete the negotiations. Indeed, it might be regarded as a good sign! Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: JayMac on September 07, 2013, 04:42:25 Not sure that you can read too much into it, but FGW issued new staff passes recently which are valid for another year or so! I've also heard that, And heard that the reason they were delayed is because of the uncertainty over the management contract and who was going to be running the franchise from October. That said, it could just be that the staff travel has been agreed for Greater Western by whoever is running the show going forward. Wider First Group staff travel passes were issued as normal back in April. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: eightf48544 on September 07, 2013, 15:09:09 I don't envy the poor officials in DafT having to sort this out. Having been castigated for the original WCML fiasco which has led to the current hiatus they must be absolutely terrified of making the wrong decesion on the exstention to the GWML franchise. Will they be critised if they give to First as favouring teh incumbant. If they do give it to First will the terms be consided too generous or not rigurous enough. So should they give it to DOR and be critised politically for rebnationalisng it.
Maybe they should just give all the facts and choices to the minister and let him decide after all it's a political decesion whoever makes it. What ever they do will be wrong. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: John R on September 07, 2013, 18:42:22 What ever they do will be wrong. Certainly Mr Crow will release a press statement to that effect whatever the outcome is. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ChrisB on September 08, 2013, 11:31:19 Oxman - Agree with your para 3, but I think para 4 is one wish to far - for what is purely a 2 year extension - I suspect the haggling is more about getting smaller improvements to the customer experience - like wifi on the HSTs. Far more likely, than extra services with no available extra rolling stock.
What you list in para 4 I think is more likely to feature in the next round of bidding for the full new franchise in two years time, when electrification will be close enough to see extra (diesel) rolling stock becoming available & therefore bidding to keep some of it, beyond what already has been ID'd as being necessary. The DfT know they're going to get castigated over allowing FGW to obtain their original length franchise without paying over that huge premium - they can't avoid that as First would never agree to pay...so anything they can screw out of these negotiations I'm sure they will try - but extra services without extra stock? Hmmm Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: LiskeardRich on September 18, 2013, 18:06:58 I've just stumbled across this article which suggests FGW have a 2 year extension. Please see my bold highlighting
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24140778 Quote Concerns have been raised about the tendering process for Devon and Cornwall's main rail franchise. Plymouth City Council's leader has written to the transport secretary saying he fears a two-year extension of First Great Western's (FGW) contract will mean a delay to improvements. He said he wanted to see faster journeys and improved internet access. The FGW franchise includes services from London Paddington to South Wales, the Cotswolds and the West of England. In his letter to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin, Labour councillor Tudor Evans said: "It is my concern that such a short-term franchise being put in place, as a result of the government's decision to stop the franchise process, that the urgently-needed improvements to Plymouth's rail services will not be delivered." He said the business community regularly complained about the "poor and intermittent wi-fi connectivity on our train services" and a lack of an early morning train from London to Plymouth. 'Incredibly disappointing' Mr Evans said that because the franchise was only for a short period, with no decision on what would happen at the end of it, he wanted the government to "de-risk" the arrangement. He added that it had been made clear in the Brown Review into the rail franchises that if short franchises are to be introduced, measures should be put in place to ensure that operators had the incentive to invest in the necessary infrastructure to improve the operation. There's a bafflingly-wide range of opinions in the region about First Great Western and its stewardship of most of our rail services. The RMT says it's now time to re-nationalise here via Directly Operated Railways. At the same time one seasoned rail commentator, Neill Mitchell, has told us that the way customers have flocked to the railways here under First is "an astonishing achievement". The franchise that's now bumping to an untidy end didn't work out as planned. The downturn blew First's expected revenue growth off-course and also derailed hopes of a new mainline train fleet. Then the West Coast franchise debacle made sure the process of lining up an operator for the next 15 years hasn't run remotely to timetable. Any day now, First will be confirmed as our main rail operator until 2016, and only then will the fight begin over who gets the long-term franchise. "I am therefore looking to the government to assist in the delivery of these improvements within the interim franchise arrangements," Mr Evans said. A 15-year franchise should have begun earlier this year, but the government's rail industry franchise programme was delayed after the West Coast bidding process had to be abandoned. Since then, First's tenure on the Paddington route and all branch lines and local services has been continuing but it will end on 12 October. It is believed FirstGroup will be granted the franchise for a further period of two years and nine months. The company is now in talks with the government about what sort of service First must provide. But Tim Jones, from the Devon and Somerset Local Enterprise Partnership, said: "We understand that the government is about to award FirstGroup an extension to their existing contract on what is described as a 'vanilla package', which means that there will be no new investment... which is incredibly disappointing." Rail union the RMT has urged the government to take the franchise back into public hands. Brendan Kelly, from the RMT, said: "It's costing the industry around about ^1.2bn a year to keep franchises private. "That money could actually save about 18% off of fares if it was reinvested back into the industry and was used to subsides fares." FirstGroup is the only commercial candidate being considered to run the service up to 2016, although the government has a fall-back option in the form of the publicly-owned Directly Operated Railways Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: paul7575 on September 18, 2013, 18:41:25 "It is my concern that such a short-term franchise being put in place, as a result of the government's decision to stop the franchise process, that the urgently-needed improvements to Plymouth's rail services will not be delivered."
What improvements were these then? If the re-franchising had gone ahead as planned, what improvements to Plymouth services were actually intended - I can see nothing in the lapsed ITT at all... So what is his actual point? Paul Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ChrisB on September 18, 2013, 18:42:41 The Dft's own Rail Franchise schedule has the GW extension running from Oct13 to Jul16, so this isn't news really, just rehashing what we know with Plymouth Council trying to change the schedule....yeah, right.
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: LiskeardRich on September 18, 2013, 18:47:56 As a side note to my first post on the BBC link
Quote Any day now, First will be confirmed as our main rail operator until 2016 Now reads Quote Any day now, First may be confirmed as our main rail operator until 2016 Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ChrisB on September 18, 2013, 20:00:34 That really makes it a non-story then!
Standards @ the Beeb are steadily dropping Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Timmer on September 18, 2013, 20:03:15 Standards @ the Beeb are steadily dropping Dropped quite a while ago IMHO but that's another story for another forum.Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Southern Stag on September 18, 2013, 21:52:19 "It is my concern that such a short-term franchise being put in place, as a result of the government's decision to stop the franchise process, that the urgently-needed improvements to Plymouth's rail services will not be delivered." What improvements were these then? If the re-franchising had gone ahead as planned, what improvements to Plymouth services were actually intended - I can see nothing in the lapsed ITT at all... So what is his actual point? Paul One of the requirements in the ITT was for a train arriving at Plymouth before 1000 direct from London IIRC, something that has been campaign for for a while. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: grahame on September 21, 2013, 21:06:05 http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/10689842._/?
Quote THE Department for Transport has said it is close to completing negotiations with First Great Western to run the Great Western mainline for another three years. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: LiskeardRich on September 21, 2013, 21:58:53 Grahame, the Oxford mail article shows when rounding up can be dangerous, for good or bad depending on your views. Their rounding increases the new franchise term by 9%. The new franchise will run from October 2013 to July 2016.
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: grahame on October 02, 2013, 23:10:50 http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/update/2013-10-02/train-companys-contract-expected-to-be-extended/?
Quote It's expected that train passengers in the region will hear tomorrow that First Great Western's contract has been extended for a further two years. The Government has been forced to extend it after the last round of franchise negotiations collapsed in chaos. But there are worries that services may be reduced, and there'll be further delays to much needed investment. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: JayMac on October 03, 2013, 00:34:04 First Group are, according to chatter on other forums, making a pre-close trading update announcement to the London Stock Exchange at 7am on 3rd October 2013.
Coincidence? Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: SDS on October 03, 2013, 00:47:07 It is their 6 month regulatory reporting period based on FGP.L making a similar announcement on Oct 2nd of 2012.
I would suspect that they've timed it, with DfT approval, to coincide with the 6 month announcement. Maybe they might even announce a re-instatement of a dividend! I wonder what this 2 year extension is going to cost the taxpayer and if a quid-pro-quo deal was reached over West Coast. Nothing on DfT or Gov newswires (as with previous announcements being made at 00:01), however I reckon an embargoed press release has been leaked out with itv being the first to break it. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: paul7575 on October 03, 2013, 01:09:17 http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/update/2013-10-02/train-companys-contract-expected-to-be-extended/? ...But there are worries that services may be reduced, and there'll be further delays to much needed investment. Services may be reduced? No evidence whatsoever, in fact there is evidence services are being increased, eg Melksham and changes in the Newton Abbot & Paignton area... Paul Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: grahame on October 03, 2013, 07:16:32 Nothing on DfT or Gov newswires (as with previous announcements being made at 00:01), however I reckon an embargoed press release has been leaked out with itv being the first to break it. Press release, indeed at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/franchising-deal-to-boost-services-on-great-western-main-line? Franchising deal to boost services on Great Western Main Line First Greater Western Ltd will operate trains between London Paddington, the Cotswolds, south Wales and the south west until September 2015. Quote Rail passengers will benefit from improved services, including greater WiFi coverage, on the Great Western network as a result of a new franchise agreement announced today (3 October 2013). Under the agreement the government has reached with First Greater Western Ltd (FGW), the company will continue running the franchise to operate trains between London Paddington, the Cotswolds, south Wales and the south west. The new 23 month franchise is a further sign that the government^s programme is on-track. It will also enable the continued delivery of vital work to upgrade the line in future, including electrification to help deliver faster, more reliable journeys. A multi-billion pound programme of national rail investment by Network Rail has already seen more than ^5 billion pumped into projects benefitting passengers on the Great Western network. These include Crossrail, the electrification of more than 200 miles of track on the Great Western line, and the upgrade of Reading Station. Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said: The Great Western franchise provides a vital service for thousands of passengers every day and under this deal they will see real benefits. For communities like Devon and Cornwall the train is a life-line bringing in business and helping secure the leisure industry the community relies upon. This agreement will provide additional sleeper carriages between London and Cornwall securing the future of a key service once under threat. We have also secured a commitment to deliver greater WiFi coverage to improve the experience of long distance journeys for passengers. But I am also determined that we see further improvements during the lifetime of this contract; more standard class and fewer first class seats on key services and the delivery of more electric trains for the Thames Valley. This agreement provides further proof that the government^s new franchising schedule is on track, delivering value for money for the tax-payer and supporting the ongoing multi-billion pound investment programme in our railways. Today^s announcement is part of the continued successful roll out of the new rail franchising schedule. The government has agreed a 23 month direct award with FGW to run services from London Paddington to west and south west England and south Wales and commuter services into Paddington until September 2015. A further contract will be negotiated before a long-term franchise is let. Wider benefits secured as part of this announcement by the Department for Transport include: two additional sleeper carriages for services between London and Cornwall, to provide additional seasonal capacity for leisure and business passengers - this agreement has been reached with the support of Cornwall Council and Cornwall and Isles of Scilly Local Enterprise Partnership, which have provided additional funding for the service in recognition of the important role it plays in meeting the needs of business travellers an agreement to fit more trains with free wireless internet services, so that passengers will be able to work and surf while travelling - priority for this upgrade will be given to long-distance trains, providing the benefits to the passengers who need it most the retention of through services from Cornwall, Hereford, Weston-super-Mare, Bedwyn and Pewsey to London more car parking spaces at Bristol Parkway station by spring 2014 In addition the government-funded National Station Improvement Programme will see FGW get ^4.6 million to upgrade stations most in need across the Great Western network. The Great Western Main Line is also set to benefit from 57 state-of-the-art intercity express trains as part of the government^s ^5.8 billion Intercity Express Programme from 2017. The Department for Transport will continue to work with FGW on a number of other proposals to improve services over the next two years, including: delivery of a fleet of electric trains for the Thames Valley routes, which will allow for existing diesel trains to go to other areas of the franchise where they are needed, increasing capacity on those areas of the network increasing the capacity of the existing high speed train fleet, with the addition of new seating in advance of the arrival of the new intercity express trains smart ticketing the delivery of improvements to services and stations through the life of the direct award The contract is the third direct award to be delivered by the department following the successful negotiations with Virgin Trains in December last year for them to continue running services on the West Coast Main Line and the award made to c2c for the Essex Thameside franchise in May. The department has also successfully released on schedule invitations to tender for the Essex Thameside and Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchises last month. The government announced its new franchising schedule in March following an independent review by industry expert Richard Brown, which endorsed the department^s overall franchise strategy. He also advised staggering competitions to make them more deliverable and the government has announced a programme of direct awards to deliver this. Ongoing improvements being delivered across the Great Western franchise by Network Rail also include: the redevelopment of Reading Station creating new platforms, better track layout and junction remodelling to remove a major bottleneck, reduce delays and create four extra train paths in each direction per hour the electrification of GWML from Paddington to Bristol, Oxford and Newbury by 2016-17, which will allow the introduction of new intercity express trains. These trains will have 20 per cent more seats and their faster acceleration and deceleration will lead to journey time reductions of up to 22 minutes the creation of a second track on 12 miles of the south Cotswold line to improve overall capacity between Swindon and Standish Junction and provide an enhanced diversionary route for south Wales proposed improvements to stations working with FGW at Gloucester, Exeter Central, Newton Abbot, Plymouth and Truro, having completed schemes at Newbury, Didcot Parkway, Swindon, Cheltenham, Chippenham and Penzance. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: SDS on October 03, 2013, 09:09:55 And the company memo::
Great Western franchise announcement I am pleased to be able to tell you that First Great Western has signed a new franchise agreement with the Department for Transport to continue operating the Great Western franchise until 20 September 2015. This agreement, which begins on 13 October 2013, is in line with the Government^s revised policy on franchising and maintains service delivery for our passengers. That last point is crucial. The decision to award the franchise is a testament to the high standard of customer service you deliver, and the Department for Transport (DfT) saw us as the best provider of service delivery for passengers as we take our customers through the biggest investment since Brunel. A franchise of 23 months might feel like a short time period, but we will not be standing still. Far from it. We will build on our current levels of customer service, providing new solutions to better meet the needs of our passengers. This, combined with a firm focus on controlling costs, is essential to making this franchise a success. The agreement gives us some freedom to make commercial decisions to improve service to our customers and increase passenger numbers, and we expect to be able to talk to you in detail about our plans in the coming months. However, there are a number of improvements specifically built into the deal. The franchise allows us to begin a programme to extend Wi-Fi provision, already available on our Class 180 services, to the High Speed Train fleet. A rolling programme of fitment will begin this financial year, with priority being given to long-distance services. With support from Cornwall Council and the Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly Local Enterprise Partnership, we have also secured under this franchise extra seasonal capacity for leisure and business passengers on our Night Riviera Sleeper, which will see one additional sleeping car and another seated carriage introduced to the service. In addition to today^s agreement, we are working with the DfT to secure a fleet of electric trains in the Thames Valley and additional standard class capacity on our High Speed Trains. We will also be working with them on smart ticketing and we hope to be able to tell you more about these agreements before the end of the year. This new franchise will allow us to build on the significant improvements delivered by you during our current franchise. This has led to better passenger satisfaction levels and reductions in train delays and cancellations. This provides a powerful start for this new franchise where we will continue to reduce cancellations, improve performance, enhance safety, manage our costs and give our passengers a better journey experience. Thank you for your continuing contribution towards the success of First Great Western. I look forward to working with you as we embark on our new journey. Best wishes Mark Hopwood Managing Director Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: paul7575 on October 03, 2013, 11:22:47 The DfT do like to pad out their press releases with stuff like IEP (due 2017), and then there's the bit about the DfT 'working with FGW on proposals' such as the EMUs for the Thames Valley - that'll probably be into the next 'real' franchise as well.
Paul Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ChrisB on October 03, 2013, 11:31:49 So, the new stuff that hasn't been announced previously, I reckon is -
^2 extra sleeper coaches - one for each sleeper train plus an additional seating coach - but described as 'seasonal' so perhaps not permanent additions? ^More free Wi-fi being fitted - priority to long-distance (i.e. HSTs) - no indication that the turbos are to get it. I doubt it. ^"More electric trains for the Thames Valley" - but confirmation elsewhere of the numbers already ordered, so this may be spin with nothing additional to order already placed ^More Standard seats & fewer 1st class seats on key services - looks as though a 1st class coach on each HST to be converted to Standard - or at least the buffet half-coach on those sets with a full buffet? ^The most interesting item - this contract only runs to September 2015, where the DfT schedule for re-franchising shows FGW being refranchised in July16. I wonder why this contract doesn't go that far? It may simply be to get around EU rules on large contracts being advertised in the EU journal. I guess "A further contract will be negotiated before a long-term franchise is let." covers the further extension to July16. ^Confirmation that the turbos released by the IEP Programme will stay within the franchise & be relocated towards the SW. ^Smart Ticketing ^Station Improvements at Gloucester, Exeter Central, Newton Abbot, Plymouth and Truro (have these already been announced?) ^This contract expiry date is 20 September 2015 ^Legally has to be reported as a new franchise, not a franchise extension. I wonder why this contract/franchise was only let until 20/09/15 and not the re-franchise date of July16? That could be really interesting! Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: bobm on October 03, 2013, 12:38:14 ^2 extra sleeper coaches - one for each sleeper train plus an additional seating coach - but described as 'seasonal' so perhaps not permanent additions? Not stated anywhere that I can see but it would help with any planned refurbishment of the sleeper berth stock. Even if the coaches are only for seasonal use, they are unlikely to find use anywhere else out of season so would allow a rolling programme of upgrades without the need to reduce the capacity on out of season services. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: a-driver on October 03, 2013, 13:00:14 ^More free Wi-fi being fitted - priority to long-distance (i.e. HSTs) - no indication that the turbos are to get it. I doubt it. Work to fit WiFi to the Turbo's start this month along with other modifications to the fleet. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: JayMac on October 03, 2013, 13:01:12 More standard class capacity on HSTs?
Looking at fleet lists I can only see around half a dozen unallocated Mk3 buffets (TRSB), stored at Long Marston, so my guess is either of the 3rd or 4th option I listed, with the possibility that those stored carriages may also be refurbished to fully seated. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Thatcham Crossing on October 03, 2013, 13:37:07 Chris B said:
Quote ^"More electric trains for the Thames Valley" - but confirmation elsewhere of the numbers already ordered, so this may be spin with nothing additional to order already placed Apologies that I am probably way behind those of you who work in the industry, or are closer to it than me (I am a mere passenger), but what exactly has been ordered for Thames Valley electric services? Has the plan that we get ex-FCC 319's now been formally binned? Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: paul7575 on October 03, 2013, 13:46:31 I don't think anything has been decided.
The 319s don't fit with the (more recent) idea NR floated in the GWML RUS that the EMU stock should be able to run faster than 100 mph to make use of the infrastructure improvements. There is also an order for new 110 mph EMUs going through, (the ones stated by DfT to be for temporary use on Thameslink, now referred to as class 387) that do fit the bill for the GW, if only by virtue of them being for 'future use elsewhere on the network' as it is described by DfT. That's about it really, so there's still loads of guesswork and assumptions, but nothing you could quote with authority at all... Paul Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: JayMac on October 03, 2013, 14:05:46 but nothing you could quote with authority at all... Indeed. Such is the way when we have (to paraphrase Sir Robin Day) transient, here today and gone tomorrow politicians making the announcements. The next SoS for Transport (or the one after that, or the one after that....) will cop any flak, and if they are of a different political hue, blame the previous administration. Plus ^a change. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: IndustryInsider on October 03, 2013, 14:13:45 Wonder why the improved TransWilts service doesn't get a mention in the improvements? I'd have thought that was an ideal thing to publicise as part of the deal - or is it still not quite at the definite stage?
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: paul7575 on October 03, 2013, 14:15:02 It seems to me there's also this strange background issue whereby on the one hand people don't want DfT to have anything to do with rolling stock policy, ie it should be left to the TOCs, manufacturers, and ROSCOS (the 'no-micromanagement' view); yet when the DfT don't come up with regular detailed plans for future rolling stock they get criticised for that as well...
Paul Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: JayMac on October 03, 2013, 14:20:14 Wonder why the improved TransWilts service doesn't get a mention in the improvements? I'd have thought that was an ideal thing to publicise as part of the deal - or is it still not quite at the definite stage? If it's not at the 'definite' stage then there are going to be a lot of people requiring refunds for tickets already purchased. As noted elsewhere, walk-up tickets to/from Melksham on the improved services have been available for about a month and Advanced Purchase fares went on sale last week. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: paul7575 on October 03, 2013, 14:21:36 Wonder why the improved TransWilts service doesn't get a mention in the improvements? I'd have thought that was an ideal thing to publicise as part of the deal - or is it still not quite at the definite stage? Perhaps they don't consider it helpful to be reminded that it wasn't that long ago that the service was reduced to the present by the DfT good ideas club... Paul Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ChrisB on October 03, 2013, 14:37:11 Depends whether FGW needed DfT authorisation on the spend, or whether it can be included in the pot of money for improvements. Only the former will have been announced now - for the pot details, after 13 October for that, once the new franchise is up & running
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: grahame on October 03, 2013, 15:15:45 A conversation I had earlier today re-confirmed that the TransWilts extra services couldn't be signed off with First until it had been confirmed that First were running the rest of the services across the Great Western area. So there's no surprise to me that they're not mentioned in the press release. Busy day on other fronts though, with these trains and all the things associated with them very much active.
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: JayMac on October 03, 2013, 16:16:22 First Group's Trading Statement, released today, did indeed make reference to the extension of the FGW franchise to September 2015. So it would seem the franchise extension announcement was deliberately timed to coincide with the announcement to the London Stock Exchange.
The full Trading Statement can be read at the following link: http://goo.gl/No8rLp First Group's share price has climbed a couple of pence throughout today. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: LiskeardRich on October 03, 2013, 17:44:35 Further Information about a signal upgrade on BBC Cornwall, and Falmouth Packet
Quote Long term plans include a full upgrade of the Night Riviera Sleeper Service, new maintenance facilities at Penzance and bringing forward the upgrade of the signalling on the rail line between Penzance and Plymouth. This should support faster, more frequent trains on the mainline throughout Cornwall to enable a spinal half hour shuttle service The latter points I note haven't been mentioned as yet here. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: paul7575 on October 03, 2013, 19:53:48 In the normal course resignalling would be nothing to do with a franchisee, so I don't think it wouldn't normally be mentioned in the context of a franchise extension.
Paul Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: LiskeardRich on October 03, 2013, 20:01:43 In the normal course resignalling would be nothing to do with a franchisee, so I don't think it wouldn't normally be mentioned in the context of a franchise extension. Paul But the extra services as a result will be to do with the franchisee Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: paul7575 on October 03, 2013, 20:29:10 The 2012 GWML ITT had the extra Cornish main line services commencing in Dec 2017, following the 'accelerated re-signalling' ahead of transfer to the ROC. So if that's the timescale it will probably be off the radar in terms of today's news.
At least it is in the ITT after all, (now lapsed of course), so it was in the public domain already... Paul Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Steve Bray on October 03, 2013, 22:17:39 With regard to the Cotswold Line, let's hope that they won't 'stand still' and finally improve the timetable, which since redoubling hasbeen a bit of a disappointment.
Let me start the ball rolling by suggesting that the 1434 SO service from Gt Malvern to Paddington be accelerated by the best part of 25 minutes with little or no impact to any other services (so far as I can see). How? By cutting out a 10 minute or so signal stop at Henwick, an 8 minute stop at Evesham and 10 minutes at Oxford and operating to the following schedule. Great Malvern depart 1430, ML 1433, WFS 1442, WSH 1445, Pershore 1453, Evesham 1502, Honeybourne 1509, Moreton 1520, Kingham 1528, Charlbury 1540, Hanborough 1549, and then forming the 1601 from Oxford. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: SDS on October 04, 2013, 08:09:36 So, the new stuff that hasn't been announced previously, I reckon is - ^The most interesting item - this contract only runs to September 2015, where the DfT schedule for re-franchising shows FGW being refranchised in July16. I wonder why this contract doesn't go that far? It may simply be to get around EU rules on large contracts being advertised in the EU journal. I guess "A further contract will be negotiated before a long-term franchise is let." covers the further extension to July16. .... I wonder why this contract/franchise was only let until 20/09/15 and not the re-franchise date of July16? That could be really interesting! Correct its a "direct award" and not an extension (in all but name). I do believe that the DaFT can award new short term franchises without having to go through all the normal stuff. If they did award a longer franchise they would fall foul of European Law. Stuff like it has to be advertised, fair bidding process, OJEU, etc etc. West Coast I do believe is being run under a management contract, and that was also a "direct award". I also note that the franchise premiums or subsidies haven't been released. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on October 04, 2013, 08:57:54 Why is there no mention (as far as I can see) in the franchise announcement about the financial arrangements with FGW? Have FGW been screwed down or have FGW got themselves a good deal? Anyone out there who can throw some light on this?
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ray951 on October 04, 2013, 09:16:13 Why is there no mention (as far as I can see) in the franchise announcement about the financial arrangements with FGW? Have FGW been screwed down or have FGW got themselves a good deal? Anyone out there who can throw some light on this? According to The Guardian http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/oct/03/first-group-great-western-franchise-32m-pounds (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/oct/03/first-group-great-western-franchise-32m-pounds)FGW will pay ^32.5m to Dft for the extension. No wonder this wasn't mentioned in the press release given that if FGW had kept to the original contract they would have had to paid considerably more than it, ^800m according to the article.FGW must be laughing all the way to the bank. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: grahame on October 04, 2013, 20:12:18 http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/first-great-western-pay-department-6140469?
Quote The DfT announced on Thursday that it had awarded the new franchise to FGW but declined to disclose any financial figures. The DfT today told WalesOnline the premium would be ^32.5m for the 23 months and FGW would incur additional costs of ^150m in both years of the new franchise, compared with the costs envisaged in the 2006 franchise contract. The DfT said the additional costs will include: * a significant increase in the charges FGW will pay for the use of Network Rail^s tracks, as determined by the Office of Rail Regulation; * costs resulting from disruption to services while the Great Western line is electrified; * heavy maintenance of rolling stock and essential maintenance work on the High Speed Train fleet; * payments for using a new train depot at Reading, which will be higher than those for the old depot; * preparatory work for the new Super Express Trains, which are due to arrive from Japan and begin testing in 2015. The DfT added that the 2006 franchise contract had assumed that FGW would by now have the benefit of new trains, but FGW would have to keep the High Speed Trains ^ dating from the 1970s ^ in service for longer. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: grahame on October 04, 2013, 20:41:46 Also of note
Quote The new franchise also puts an end to payments which the DfT has been making to FGW to compensate for revenue from fares being lower than expected when the 2006 contract was awarded. Ah - so that's an end of "Cap and Collar" where 80% of the risk goes back to the DfT which (as I understand it) has meant that of an extra (say) 1000 pounds collected in a day by an RPI team, only around 200 would stay with First to pay that team and perhaps to make a little profit. Perhaps the change will encourage more robust fare collection, and also more of a willingness to try out other schemes which will raise more farebox income. Could be good news for innovational things to be tried, though 2 years is scant time to build anything up and get a return. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ChrisB on October 06, 2013, 12:51:31 Indeed, all risk to FGW, rather than losing 80% to the DfT.
BUT - that is going to mean FGW become *more* risk-averse when trying new & speeded-up services. Extra trains will need a business case showing increases in patronage, and speeded-up services won't risk any added minutes for catch-up purposes. More work for those suggesting improvements in showing where increases in patronage will come from. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 24, 2013, 15:27:19 From the Morning Star (http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-bc9a-Tories-hand-247-million-discount-to-First-Great-Western):
Quote Tories Hand ^247 Million Discount To First Great Western Tories blow millions by handing rail firm massive discount to keep trains private Tory ministers faced an angry backlash yesterday after it was revealed they have given rail privateer First Great Western (FGW) nearly a quarter of a billion pounds discount on its rail franchise. FGW will pay just ^32.5 million in premiums for the 23 months of the new extension, which lasts until 2015. The premiums of the last two years of the previous contract amounted to ^279m, revealing an astonishing ^247m loss of payments to the taxpayer over a similar period under the current deal. The extension was granted after a review of the government's tendering process which was put on hold following a complaint by Virgin Trains in 2012 over "significant technical flaws" when FGW operator FirstGroup won a bid on the West Coast franchise that Virgin was then operating. The West Coast deal was annulled and the franchise process was put under review, with the government now set to pay the train companies ^50m in compensation as a result. Since the outcome of the review this April the government has concentrated on selling off the publicly owned and profitable East Coast line, while delaying the franchising tender of FGW run services by providing the massively discounted contract extension. Railway union RMT said the figures backed up the union's claim that the government is ideologically opposed to a public-sector option. It said that franchise extensions are being awarded "on back-of-an-envelope calculations with the companies able to fill their boots with outrageous financial demands." RMT general secretary Bob Crow said: "It is a scandal that the only reason for these costly contract extensions is David Cameron's decision to rig the franchising timetable so that he can carry out a totally unnecessary privatisation of East Coast rail services." Labour's shadow transport secretary Mary Creagh also spotlighted the Tories' "obsession" with selling off East Coast while handing buckets of cash over to greedy rail companies. She said: "David Cameron should tackle his government's cost of living crisis and cap rail fare rises for struggling commuters, instead of obsessing about handing East Coast over to the private sector. East Coast is working well and will have returned ^800 million to the taxpayer by the end of this financial year. This government has learned nothing from the West Coast franchising fiasco, which saw over ^50m of taxpayers' money wasted in compensation to train companies because of ministers' incompetence." Train drivers' union Aslef general secretary Mick Whelan pointed out that FGW had cancelled the last three years of its current contract to avoid paying the taxpayer ^800m in franchise fees. He said: "It now seems this will be exacerbated by the fact that it will not have to pay the full market value for its extended contract. The truth is that the privatised train-operating companies think that the public should pay for the investment, while they make a private profit." FGW did not respond to the Star's request for a comment. Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: ChrisB on November 24, 2013, 15:43:59 Blimey - that could have been printed back when the new franchisewas awarded. Did they have no current news to print?
Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 24, 2013, 16:19:30 The 'story' has also been picked up by the Plymouth Herald (http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Rail-union-franchise-claims-expose-Great-Western/story-20094424-detail/story.html):
Quote Rail union franchise claims expose Great Western train ^robbery^ A railway union has claimed the 23-month contract extension handed to First Great Western cost the Treasury ^247 million in lost income. The RMT says it has unearthed figures revealing the true cost of the interim deal, calling it a ^shambles^ which left taxpayers out of pocket. FirstGroup^s First Great Western train company was last month told it could keep the franchise to run trains into Wales and the South West for another two years. The original tender process was put on hold after the Department for Transport^s (DfT) awarding of longer-term rail franchises ran into trouble last year. Officials admitted there had been ^significant technical flaws^ in the tendering process for the West Coast Main Line, which were originally given to FirstGroup The October announcement was broadly welcomed after promises of more seating, sleeper carriage capacity and improved wi-fi connection. The RMT said its research showed that First will pay just ^32.5 million in premiums for the new extension. However, it said the premiums of the last two years of the previous contract had amounted to ^279 million, thereby delivering a ^247m loss to the taxpayer over a similar period under the current deal. General secretary Bob Crow said: ^The news that the rail franchising shambles is set to cost the taxpayer another quarter of billion pounds on the Great Western route will come as a bitter blow to staff and passengers contending with attacks on pay and conditions and eye-watering fare increases to travel on notoriously overcrowded trains. ^First Group are laughing all the way to the bank, not only did they dodge ^800 million in premium payments by ducking out of the old contract early but they^ve now ended up with a rollover dropping into their laps worth a cool quarter of a billion in further lost returns to the taxpayer.^ A DfT spokesman said the Great Western franchise had been ^carefully developed to achieve the maximum benefit for taxpayers and passengers^ and an ^appropriate amount^ was being paid to FirstGroup. First said the RMT^s figures ^only tell half the story.^ ^Their deliberately misleading calculations fail to make any acknowledgment of the increased costs that First Great Western will incur over the two years of the new contract,^ a spokesman added. ^Our increased costs include higher payments to Network Rail for track access charges and the expanded Reading station and new train-care depot. We are also paying increased train maintenance costs for the existing InterCity 125 fleet, carrying out major overhaul works to prolong their lives. "First Great Western^s part in supporting the ^8 billion investment in the route is also reflected in higher costs as we gear up to support the introduction of new trains and other service quality improvements. The deal is good news for passengers, taxpayers and our shareholders.^ Title: Re: Great Western franchise extension - ongoing discussion, merged topic Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 01, 2013, 17:10:45 From ThisIsTheWestCountry (http://www.thisisthewestcountry.co.uk/news/somerset_news/10835702.Green_Party_s_lead_European_candidate_heads_to_Yeovil/):
Quote Green Party's lead European candidate heads to Yeovil Molly Scott Cato, the Green Party's lead candidate for next year^s European Elections, will be on tour in Dorset and South Somerset this weekend. She will be accompanied by Baroness Jones of Moulescomb, the Green Party's recently ennobled peer on her first visit outside the capital since entering the House of Lords. Molly Scott Cato and Baroness Jones will be in Yeovil on Sunday, December 1 to listen to voters' concerns about transport, which has been Baronness Jones's top priority at the Greater London Authority. They will be meeting voters in Middle Street from 12noon till 1pm. As well as discussing cycle safety and the safety issues with the A303, they will also be encouraging voters to sign the South-West Green Party's petition to reclaim the First Great Western rail franchise. Molly Scott Cato said: "I am delighted to be joined by my old friend Jenny Jones to meet the voters of Dorset and Somerset and hear their issues and concerns. It is an honour that she has chosen to visit us so shortly after her ennoblement and I am sure that local people will value her expertise in the area of road safety." Peter Lansdown, secretary of the local Green Party, which is hosting the visit, said: "Deaths and serious accidents on our roads present a source of concern to many local people. I am glad to have the opportunity to hear local peoples^ views about these issues and to be able to discuss them with two of our leading Green politicians. "We will also be encouraging the people of Yeovil to get behind the Party's campaign to bring the First Great Western franchise back into public ownership." This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |