Great Western Coffee Shop

This week ... Melksham to Farnborough on Monday morning (for 09:00), back Wednesday evening - cannot leave Farnborough until after 17:15 and must be on 19:11 arrival into Melksham.

Single fare 57 pounds / return 114 is a bit high for me to justify (better to drive at those prices!)

Alternative ...
MKM -> TRO 3.30 single
TRO -> FNB 22.30 anytime day single (via SAL)

FNN -> CHO 8.00 off-peak day single
CHO -> DID 15.60 7 day season
DID -> MKM 11.70 Super off-peak single

Total - 60.90

FNB or FNN?.....:-)

I've selected ...
FNB outbound - need to be very close to station as I'll have 15 training manuals. Too heavy to walk from FNN
FNN on way back - need to be in MKM by 19:15;  train from FNB only gets in at 19:50

As your return journey requires use of the 1812 off Reading arriving Swindon 1839 then a normal Didcot split (ie train must call) is not an option.

I think you've found (nearly) the cheapest option using that 7 Day Season between Cholsey and Didcot.

A further ^2.30 can be saved by buying a FNN-RDG Off Peak Day Single at ^5.70 as your Cholsey to Didcot 7 Day Season is valid via Reading thanks to a Routeing Guide easement:


You are travelling via Didcot Parkway with your combination of tickets.

yyyyyes .... and I could get 1.50 back by turning in my 7 day season ticket after 1 day, - 15.60 - 4.10 return fare - 10.00 admin charge  ;) - but I'm thinking that 61 pounds is a realistic fare for 75 miles each way - 41p per mile - where 76p per mile was excessive for a journey on which all the trains will be on quieter legs of their journeys.

Can you get refunds on 7day tickets?.....

Yep. If there are at least 3 days remaining on a 7 Day Season.

Any amount to be refunded will be calculated from the date that you hand in the Season Ticket. The amount due will be based on what you originally paid for the ticket less what you would have paid had you bought a ticket or tickets valid up until that time. A ^10 administration charge will be deducted.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46571.aspx

So, I assume, in grahame's case the application would need to be made when he finishes using it on day one rather than waiting until day two when it could be argued it had been used for a second day.   Bit of a snag if you end your journey at an unstaffed station.

I'm NOT trying the "turn in my season" trick - I think that's too much manipulating the system.   In fact I bought all the tickets a couple of days ago so I don't need to faff around tomorrow.

The of course I end up with a change of plans ... coming back from North Camp not Farnborough North.  Oh gawd - turn in my FNN to CHO and get a NCM to CHO instead?   Turns out that's 3.60 extra, but NCM to FNN is just 2.10 ... yet another split.   What a daft system!

The additional single ticket is the only possible option.

Turning in your FNN-CHO Off Peak Day Single for a refund and buying a NCM-CHO Off Peak Day Single would be subject to a ^10 administration fee. So you're ^2 out of pocket before buying the new ticket.

You can't get a free excess when changing the origin station. Excesses are only available for change of destination.

I love it ... what's the logic to that little gem?

Asking me to explain logic when it comes to fares?  ;D

I'll try.

I'm going by the 'Excess Fares Procedure' available to staff in 'The Manual' (I have a copy of the 'Excess Fares Procedure' entry. Attached below) and that doesn't cover change of origin over-distance excesses, only change of destination.

But that's not to say that it can't be done. A clerk with the wherewithal to attempt it may have some success, as this post, from someone not unknown to this parish, from another rail forum shows:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=497168#post497168

Star=FujitsuSTAR, the retail system used in FGW staffed stations.

So, without a written procedure for how to issue 'change of origin' over-distance excesses you are unlikely to have any joy requesting one. Unless you find one of those few clerks who will play around with their retail system and discover that it's possible.

Well ... I bought myself a North Camp to Farnborough North ticket .. and I was actually early at North Camp having been given a lift, so caught an earlier train ... which as it happened did not stop at Farnborough North.  I understood that I was OK to do that, rather than wait for the stopper, because I had exactly one season ticket in my resulting split.

North Camp to Farnborough - regular ticket
Farnbrorough to Cholsey - regular ticket
Cholsey to Didcot - Season
Didcot to Melksham - regular ticket

which as  understood it conforms to clause 19 of the conditions:


and none of the tickets had any evening restrictions.

When tickets were checked, I handed the conductor the two tickets for the North Downs line, and showed him the season ticket and also the Didcot - Melksham.    He only looked at the two tickets, and told me they were not valid on that train as it didn't stop at Farnborough North.   I showed him my season ticket, and said I understood that the train did not have to stop at the split point if one of the tickets was a season.   He took a closer look at the season, and said that did not apply for the split I was trying to make at Farnborough North, and did so in a loud voice so that the who compartment was made aware that I was being told I was breaking the rules and trying to travel on a ticket that wasn't valid.

As I had a printout of my plans, including the condition printout, in my luggage, I said I would get them out so that he could explain why the split at FNN wasn't valid ... when I got back to my seat he was gone, to be seen only briefly once again as he came through counting passengers.  Just went straight past (from behind me) ... no contact.

Two questions:

a) Can anyone enlighten me as to how I broke the rules (of if indeed I did so) - what I had certainly looks to fit the letter of the conditions as I read them.

b) If indeed I was in error, why didn't the FGW employee in question stop to show me how that was in the conditions of carriage - explain it to me.  And if I wasn't in error, why did he accuse me of travelling without a valid ticket, and do so in a loud voice in front of a lot of other people?

You were not in error. He was.

Sadly, the knowledge on NRCoC Condition 19(c) is not very widespread. And there is a common misconception amongst rail staff that only one season and one additional ticket is allowed to satisfy 19(c).

My printout of Condition 19(c), that I sometimes carry, has the pertinent bits highlighted thus:


Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it) you weren't challenged further and no punitive action was taken. Although it's bad form of the conductor to not get back to you. Happened to myself and bobm recently as well.

It's down to training. There is, I'm led to believe, very little training on the National Rail Conditions of Carriage across all grades. And little appetite from management to implement more training in this area. Most staff that do know the ins and outs are likely self taught.

Then there are those staff who just hate the idea of people saving a few bob by using split tickets.

Or hate the idea that a passenger might actually know a little more about ticketing, fares and the NRCoC, than they do. That's when you get the loud voice which can and does make you feel uncomfortable. bobm knows that feeling. As do I following the full speaker volume berating I had from a ticket office supervisor at one of the windows at Paddington.

It shouldn't be so, but this is one of the downsides to split ticketing and the other legitimate ways to make the byzantine fares system work in your favour.

For the record here was my experience http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=8876.msg133850#msg133850 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=8876.msg133850#msg133850)

It seems therefore that my experience was, based on the small sample we have here, not uncommon.  What this means is I become less willing to recommend split tickets to some of my friends who would not be so confident in challenging on-board staff when questioned about them.  The result is they pay more for travel.

Ironically, had I known I was returning from North Camp I could have bought ...

12.00 - season, North Camp to Farnborough North
8.50 - single to Didcot
11.50 - single to Melksham
Total - 32.00

And saved 3.30 more ... I wonder if Shxxx would have told me that wasn't a valid split either.  I don't mind staff not knowing.  I don't mind them saying they'll go away and check (and if they say "I'll come back if there's a problem", no return would then be fine).  I do fell it's arrogant of them to make an accusation in front of a whole lot of other passengers, stating that they are correct ... "humiliate the passenger" really isn't acceptable when the passenger has done no wrong.

Bobm, I have to agree with you about not recommending splits to people who can't explain the case well and be prepared to do so.   I don't like advising people to pay more that they need to because of the hassle they may get - in fact, I feel that the net effect of the system as it's run is that First are taking more money that they should by menacing their customers.

Encounters like this can leave you feeling a bit embarrassed more than anything else, even though what you have done is completely fine. I am sure there are some on the railway, who, whenever they spot anything slightly out of the ordinary want to make a point, for making a points' sake and to be "right".

I was wondering what approach would work best here. Maybe something along the lines of "I'm quite happy if you want me to give customer services a quick phone call xxxx to check?" - that way everyone in the carriage knows xxxx is talking complete BS and they can have some humiliation back. Almost certainly they will back down, because they are not sure of their erroneous position which will then leave you vindicated.

I take your point Fourbee but from my point of view I am not looking to "humilate" or gain "vindication".  I am a customer and I would like to be treated in the same way I hope I treat people who are customers of mine.  By the same token if I try to give as good as I get the railway staff are within their rights to ask me to leave the train - and at that point I have no defence under the byelaws.

There is no getting away from the fact the fares structure is over-complicated and staff must struggle to keep on top of it - but bearing that in mind they should still treat customers/passengers with courtesy and if it turns out the customer is wrong deal with them appropriately.  That should not involve raised voices or humilation from either side.  If the customer is right a friendly acknowledgement will do no harm.

I've had various encounters over the years. But situations like this sadly are less than uncommon.

One of them that sticks in my head was on a South West Trains service last year. I was travelling on an Off Peak Return and Gold Card ^5 First Class Upgrade. It was a weekday. I had my tickets inspected by a Train Manager who told me that my First Class Coupon was not valid on Weekdays. I politely asked them if they were confusing it with Weekend First (Also ^5). I was told the rules were the same for both upgrade types.

I asked if they wouldn't mind clarifying that with control as they were two totally different schemes. She raised her voice and said something along the lines of "It's not valid, pay the excess or move, those are the choices"

I then stated she was wrong and that she was getting it confused with WF. I asked how the ticket office at Southend Victoria could issue me a ticket knowing it not be valid. It was accepted without question by GreaterAnglia RPI's in First Class where SWT WF upgrades would NOT be valid.

Then she loudly said in the most condescending voice possible. "Well I can always get our RPI's to check the validity for you"

My response being "Go for it, it's valid so there won't be a problem"

Then she said fine I'll get them to book you. Other passengers were getting a bit irate about the argument. The chap opposite funnily enough also knew my ticket was valid, as he had purchased the ^5 Gold Card Upgrades previously.

Did she return... No. Did the RPI's hunt me down. No. Was my ticket valid? Absolutely.
 

I do not like making a scene in common with a lot of British people. I use the trains a lot, would probably encounter the member of staff again and feel embarrassed if there had been a heated argument. I think the suggestion of the phone call would probably diffuse the situation very quickly and could be done in a quiet manner of course (even so, passengers in the immediate vicinity will overhear the details).

I agree with bobm, there certainly is no need for raised voices on either side, but when the situation has been sparked off by a member of staff being indiscreet and bang wrong I can understand why some passengers would be irked in return.

Railway staff encounter a lot of chancers which they deal with (quite rightly) in a robust way. It is separating those from the honest fare paying passenger (abiding by the almost farcical rules) which is key.

That really is the key.

Personally I would sooner saw my own leg off with rusty implements than try to rob the train companies of the correct fare, even though the utter ludicrousness of the fares system leaves one agog at times. I often travel between Montpelier and Worcester, and find I need to be fairly robust at times to get the correct fare of ^13.70 ('split' at Temple Meads, though I don't really see it that way as the alternative would be to walk or get the bus) rather than say, for example, the alternative ^58.30 'via Brum' fare that would allow me to take an extra hour getting there.

The thing that really ignites my anger is the use of penalty fares: Penalty for what? Failing to understand a system that many railway employees themsleves don't properly understand? For losing your ticket? For accidentally getting on the wrong train? For most businesses, penalties are the last resort; we assume goodwill on both sides until it becomes irrefutable that one party is not playing by the rules. The same should apply to revenue protection.

Out of interest, I wonder how many passengers on the Severn Beach line and other similar routes where the guard is often too busy to collect fares would use 'honesty boxes' if they were made available? Or am I being too Pollyannaish?

Couldn't agree more.  A friend of mine now carries a season ticket with his photocard and an extract from the routing guide to show that his ticket is valid.  Useful that they make the card wallets with three sections.

Ah... but what is the 'correct fare'?

• A to D?
• A to D with a split at B?
• A to D with a season between A and B and additional tickets from B to C and C to D?
• A to D and using an easement that allows a double back from E to D?
• A to D with an Advance from A to B valid only on the third train on the first Tuesday in June and a walk up ticket from B to D

....ad infinitum
 
If it helps you make up your mind RS, I've got a shed full of rusty implements.

That's easy:

Red Squirrel,

This is quite spooky. I have a good friend staying overnight and he saw my earlier post and commented that it was reminiscent of ISIHAC.

Your reply has freaked us both out.

We're both now stuck at Finchley Central.

Each of those looks to me like it is a correct fare when used on trains that fulfil the conditions set on each ticket in conjunction with national conditions of carriage and easements, and I should be able to use any of them when it is a correct fare, without fear of being told that I'm using a ticket I should not be using.  As the arrangements for purchase, collection / delivery, routing, stops, and changing plans, and the total price will all vary, that will effect what the most appropriate one is for me, and I am free to choose within the rules and practicality.

Should a representative of the rail industry with authority to check tickets be unsure as to the validity of ticket(s) for a journey, (s)he is welcome to check.  And that may involve telling the customer that (s)he is not sure, and will go away and check. Where such a check is made,  (s)he should return to confirm validity to the customer, or to inform the customer why the combination is wrong - the only exception being if (s)he gets sidetracked in relation to the safety of the train, other trains, and their passengers or other members of the public or other parties. To fail to return is rude; to tell a customer that their ticket(s) are invalid for the journey being made when that is not the case is - well, words are failing me ... I could get myself into really hot water by saying what I think of such behaviour.

Conversely from the experiences here, the embarrassment can be very deserved.

Yesterday, I purchased a Milton Keynes Central to Harrow & Wealdstone single (in a rush, only had 90 seconds until the train left) for ^11.30 to use on a non-stop Virgin train to London Euston, in conjunction with my outboundary Travelcard season.  Obviously I didn't want to pay for part of the journey I'd already paid for, hence why I chose Harrow.

When the train manager checked our tickets, he started tapping at his Avantix.  Oh dear, time to get out the NRCoC went through my mind.  He then said, with a big grin on his face, "you do know that a ticket to London Terminals Virgin Only would've been ^8.60".

The people I was travelling with see me as a train geek, hence the embarrassment and stick I got for the rest of the day :(

Brucey, my point is that if your error had been the other way (i.e. you had inadvertantly under-paid) then it really wouldn't have been a joke. What would the penalty fare have been?

In my case, an anytime single ticket without railcard (^18.50) as Virgin do not operate a Penalty Fare Policy.

The same journey with a Penalty Fare TOC would have cost ^37.00.

Well we live and learn - I had assumed Penalty Fares were universal. Good old Sir Dick, I say!

Indeed I too have made rather embarrassing mistake with Virgin Trains. Whilst I hate to blame Dyslexia for the error I made... That is what the fundamental cause of the error was.

At Coventry I boarded a service running two minutes late. I believe from memory it was xx:11 but advertised as due at xx:13. The problem? The train I actually wanted was xx:31!

The train I had boarded was next call Rugby then fast to London Euston. The train I should have caught was next call Watford Junction then fast to London Euston.

The error only became apparent AFTER we had left Rugby. I heard the announcement that next call was London Euston. The problem? The ticket I had was route: NOT LONDON

However the TM I have to say was very good. I went to find him immediately to explain the error and he said to back to First Class and he'd come and sort something out. On production of my ticket which at the time was an FOR priced in the hundreds provided by my client, he said that I had paid enough as it was and said he'd get me through the barrier at Euston. Along with the cheeky comment, "You're not the first and you certainly won't be the last...!"

But even back in the bygone days of British Rail... It's not an uncommon mistake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Parker_(British_businessman)) :P ;D

They're not universal even in FGW land! See these three maps for more information on where FGW enforce PFs! http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/~/media/PDF/Penalty%20Fares%20maps.ashx

This map (Network Southeast's link above) has come as a complete surprise to me, because Yatton, which is my most used starting point, is shown.  The surprise is that I have been told by staff not to worry if I don't have a ticket, they can tell fare dodgers from genuine punters (like me  ;)).  Also they are always selling tickets on the train when I travel.  I prefer to buy on advance and always try to, but occasionally arrive late and/or find the only machine not working. 

The map may suggest enforcement, but practice suggests otherwise.  It would be interesting if they tried to enforce it without warning they now mean it.

I suspect the unreliability of the ticket machines is the reason it doesn't happen.

I came across these maps while I was digesting Brucey's point about Virgin not charging penaluy fares. How in the name of anything sensible is the average punter supposed to follow this?

I wonder how many people, for example, would know whether it was acceptable to complete a ticketed journey at a penalty fares station and then catch another train leaving that station on a non-penalty-fares line, without a ticket? The rules seem clear here:


This is at best ambiguous, in this context.

I quite often find myself in this situation, and will always go out through the barriers and buy a ticket for the onward journey - partly because I want to be sure I'm legal, and partly because experience tells me I am unlikley to get an opportunity to buy a ticket from the guard, and I want to be sure my journey contributes to the ridership stats for the line!

But I am also conscious that if I didn't buy a ticket before getting on the train, then in the section of line up to the first non-penalty-fares station I would be on a train which has left a station at which tickets were available, with no ticket. Isn't that a penalisable offence?

I have always been puzzled by how FGW work this on my local Wokingham to Reading line. SWT appear to apply the PF regime in full, and at Wokingham (no barriers - yet) that means occasionally descending with a revenue protection team of about six plus BTP support.

The map shows the line to Guildford as PF terriitory, but the North Downs Line beyond that is not. In practice they usually seem to sell tickets on board throughout, and it may be that the smaller stations do not reliably have a machine that works. On Friday, the TM announced as we approached Reading that anyone who wanted to buy a ticket to save queuing at the excess fares office should come and find him, suggesting they see excess fares as just another normal way of paying. I've not had to do that recently, so I don't know how that office applies the rules.

On the other hand, I have seen an FGW TM giving someone the full "pay up or face prosecution" treatment, but they had boarded at Reading, which may rate as "no excuse" for not buying a ticket. This was some time ago, when the gates on the footbridge were very often left open for want of a minder. Incidentally, yesterday was the first day I have seen the gates at the North entrance open and unattended during the day (ca. 18:30).

The policy that TOCs have to follow that enables them to operate a Penalty Fares scheme says that a passenger shouldn't have to delay their journey to buy a ticket at an interchange station. If you have time, buy a ticket. If you don't have time then ticket purchase should be made at the next earliest opportunity.

https://www.ircas.co.uk/docs/SRA%20-%20Penalty%20Fare%20Policy%202002.pdf#page=11

Each decision of an authorised collector to issue a Penalty Fare should take into account the individual circumstances. Sometimes though they will be issued in error. You only have to pay the fare that would have been due, as a minimum, when issued a PF. Then if there are grounds to have the PF cancelled you can appeal the outstanding balance.

I once succeeded in travelling from Patchway to Bracknell having had no opportunity to buy a ticket. At both Bristol TM and Reading I had insufficient time to purchase my ticket without delaying my journey. On board to Reading the Train Manager's ticket machine wasn't working. A Revenue Protection Inspector at Bracknell wanted to PF me from Bristol TM - Bracknell and I had to strenuously argue my case about my start station having no facilities and there being no opportunity to purchase en route. Eventually the RPI relented and let me go to the ticket window to buy the tickets I wanted.

That's not quite what's happening in my case. Typically, I make the decision whether to walk, catch the Severn Beach line train, or get a bus when I arrive back at Temple Meads. It isn't that tickets weren't available; I just hadn't decided on the mode of transport (and therefore the requirement for an onward ticket) when I started my journey.

I cannot believe he even bothered to argue. You honestly stated you came from Patchway, so a non-trivial fare was going to be payable.

Well, maybe slightly trivial. I wanted, and ended up purchasing, 2x Off Peak Day Returns, split at Didcot.

What really narks me is when there is no Train Manager or Conductor to be seen.

I think yesterday was something of a record.

I made the following journeys and was only asked to show my rover ticket once.

Teignmouth to Exeter St Davids
Exeter St Davids to Dawlish Warren
Dawlish Warren to Teignmouth
Teignmouth to Taunton
Taunton to Newton Abbot
Newton Abbot to Teignmouth - it was on this seven minute journey that I was asked.

Had either of the trains to/from Taunton been busy I might have decided to go for a ^5 Weekend First Upgrade - I wonder if I would have been asked to pay it?

I have never travelled without having a ticket, or an acceptable reason as defined in the rules, but I see people getting on services sometimes openly boasting to the friends accompanying them that they do not have tickets. 

I know TMs and Conductors have jobs other than ticket collecting but if my experience yesterday is typical of an average Sunday in the West Country there's the chance a fair bit of revenue is being lost.  All the stations I alighted at were "open" except Exeter St Davids.  The barriers at Taunton were unmanned.

Barriers at Taunton were unmanned on Saturday afternoon as well.

Spend all that money on installing them to keep the DfT happy and then don't bother staffing them. What's that all about?

Surely week-ends are the time when you want them staffed. More likely to be chancers among the leisure traveller than at week-day commuting times.

Was on a Southern Service today from London Victoria - East Croydon. 19:17 I think it was, 12 car unit that splits during the journey. I was sat in (The not so) First Class at the very front of the train. About 5 minutes before ECR, a handful of RPI's arrived to do ticket checks, something that has only happened to me on a Southern Rail Service once IIRC (even then that was more of a chancer as they saw me and ladyfriend trout park derri^res in 1ST)

Of the 4 of us in First Class. 1 person had a Standard Class ticket. Instant Penalty Fare issued. (No... It wasn't me with the Standard Class Ticket :-X :o :P ) ^20 for Clapham Junction to ECR... That must hurt a little bit! But to be fair the other 2 passengers were annual season ticket holders probably priced in the thousands!

Then the flip side of that was at Clapham Junction at 20:15 the Footbridge Gateline on the East Side (Near the Toilets) was completely open and unmanned... and that's Britain's Busiest Station!! :-\ :-X :o ::)

On my Journey back from Paddington - Bath Spa, ticket checks were very sparing IMHO. Checked once around Didcot Parkway. No askie to see reservation thingy (Advance! ;) )

Win some, Loss some I guess...!

Announcement on yesterday's 15:30 off Paddington as it approached Chippenham. "Will customers getting off at Chippenham please retain them in order to use the barriers as they leave the station".  Interesting:
a) A very fast construction since 08:45 when I had left
b) Portable barriers (a la flash mob!) in place
c) Human team forming ticket barriers and checking people off the platform
d) None of the above; incorrect announcement, as normal open access applied
... turned out to be (d) ...


I'm only going to give qualified agreement with that; I suspect that some of the very best value for money in security (of people and of revenue) is to vary the level of checking within the rules - putting off a lot of chancers with the threat and occasional real checking rather than putting an always-check regime in place which will catch lots initially, then very few.


But then ... that's based on interchange and passing through figures.  Entering / leaving station it's far lower, and I think my Taunton comment applies.


Did it leave Paddington from a gated platform?   Were there other operation matters to deal with (disruptive passengers, updating colleague who had just returned from leave on what had happened in last two weeks, standing at defective door as health and safety monitor, checking NCoCs for awkward passenger who had referred him to 19(c) )?

Clapham Junction station is the busiest station only by number of trains passing through it, not the number of passengers - that accolade goes to London Waterloo.

Anyway, you could do worse than unmanned ticket barriers at Clapham Junction. How about platforms 11/12/13/14 at Paddington, which are often left open in the evening peaks, or the barriers on the bridge for platforms 2/3/4/5?

I found this official text quoted by Ollie very interesting (my highlight)


The train manager on the Gatwick to Reading train was not (at the time) selling me a rail product ... I had bought such products previously, and he was telling me (incorrectly, we commonly believe here) that it wasn't valid on the service on which I was travelling.   

Why does this ATOC regulation limit the obligations to at time of sale?  That looks un-necessary, and appears to leave the way open (and allowable under this rule) for ticket enforcers later down the chain to use different (individual TOC) interpretations of when the National Conditions of Carriage should apply.  Very unsatisfactory indeed, probably not what was intended ...

That's true... Didn't consider that at the time, but it's probably much more than Taunton. However I am in complete agreement with you. I'm wondering if FGW are being slightly pedantic with this by installing that Gates and then not using them...? But I'm probably being far, far too cynical. :-\


I don't think any of these were applicable on this train... First Class contained a dozen people, The train did leave from Platform 5 so was gated at the concourse but not the footbridge.


I have also seen this. It's often the same at Bristol Temple Meads and Bath Spa.

With regards to Penalty Fares. I look towards them rather dis-pleasingly if I'm honest. It seems some of the RPI's can apply a guilty until proven innocent method as per BNM Bracknell story.

Indeed I've had a few close shaves where I have been sold tickets for a journey which is not valid, but I assumed would be as a Conductor sold me the ticket on an Avantix. See my c2c story ;)

I have been reliably informed by a Gateline Assistant that if I were to ask for a ticket from say Warminster - Bath Spa. It would be issued. Because if I were a Fare Dodger I could have said Oldfield Park or Freshford. The fact I have been honest about origin would show I had intent to pay the fare due.

I've also been told that upon asking for a First Class ticket on-board a train the chances are this will be issued as fare dodgers don't normally ask for it. In relation to that if I have travelled the journey without purchasing a ticket for a legitimate reason. It would look favourably to declare I had travelled First Class at the end of the journey, something I always do and takes some Gateline Assistants by complete surprise.

I understand the aims of Penalty Fares, however I think the guilty until proven innocent attitude stinks.

Incidentally the same Gateline Assistant said one of the tickets I buy is probably not valid on a particular route I use which is mainly for preference on Rolling Stock. Slightly worrying that in nearly 5 years it's only just been picked up on. Although they said that to buy a ticket and use it on a route that's technically not valid is a rather easy thing to do and the chances are it's accepted unless it was a ludicrous route. Say Reading - Bristol Temple Meads via Birmingham New Street ;)

I once travelled South Wales - Birmingham via Westbury (Hawkeridge Jn) and Reading: normal tickets accepted. This was a Sunday when this was the best route available. Ludicrous=whatever suits the railway  ::)

I know all the assurances I had here, but the only official word from FGW - in the form of the conductor - was "you broke the rules" (and loudly to an audience).  So I thought I would check to be 100% sure (rather than just the 99% sure I already was).  From customer services, just received - a confirmation:

It's good to see a Customer Service Advisor appearing to be aware of the nuances of National Rail Conditions of Carriage condition 19, and the differences when just one ticket is a Season.

Also nice to see it confirmed that more than one non-Season ticket can be used in addition to the Season for one journey.

I don't know whether, in your correspondence with Customer Services, you identified the service on which you had the confrontation with a conductor who was in the wrong. Even if it was just a platitude it would have been nice to see in the response that the issue would be brought to the attention of the relevant manager to ensure that staff on the ground were corrected.

Purely anecdotal, and based on this response and a couple recent ones I've had from CS, but it would seem that customer service on the ground is getting worse, whilst that provided online, by phone, email and snail mail is improving. I wonder if there is a morale issue at the coalface.

grahame, I hope the experience hasn't put you off using condition 19(c) in future. As you found, it can mean the difference between taking the train or taking the car. The rail industry shouldn't be overly concerned about the revenue implications. If you couldn't have used the combination of tickets you had on that day, it was likely that the the cost of the through fare would have meant the balance was tipped in favour of driving. Better that the rail industry gets some revenue, with a combination of tickets allowed by the NRCoC, than none at all.

My thought is that the condition is there to cover the situation whereby someone has a season from A to B, but on an ad hoc basis has to travel to C, further down the line, and is thus able to travel on a service that doesn't stop at B.

However, it hasn't been tightly worded enough, so inadvertently it has exposed the loophole that the Customer Service advisor has now confirmed exists. In fairness I can see why the original conductor took the view he did, without seeing the actual wording.

Presumably this means that whenever I continue my normal journey from Nailsea to Swindon onwards to London, I can now split at Didcot irrespective as to whether the train stops there, but maybe with a copy of the NCoC in hand.



 

I think it's also there to cover the person who has - let's say - a Reading West to Bedwyn season but one Friday evening he's going to Pewsey, and the logical place to join that service is going to be Reading.


I still find it vaguely sordid to split, and will still do so only where it makes a significant saving on a journey which would have been so overpriced on a single ticket to make it laughable.  That's where this thread started - 57.00 pounds Melksham to Farnborough, versus 22.30 Trowbridge to Farnborough - same train, joined 9 minutes later, single fare for that 9 minutes being 3.30.  Once I'm doing a split, I may as well look for the best one available.

You can indeed do that John R. On more than one occasion I've added a Didcot split to a Severn Beach Line Weekly Season and travelled on a xx00 Paddington bound service (skips Didcot) from Temple Meads.

I'd disagree about condition 19(c) not being 'tightly worded' enough. If the intention is only to allow an ad hoc journey to C with an A to B season, then there should be be no need to say "....and the other ticket(s) is/are not." If the intention is to be only permitted one additional ticket then the condition could easily be reworded to reflect that.

As it is, it's quite clear that more than one additional ticket can be added to one Season. It's a positive condition which can be of great benefit to the passenger, both in terms of journey flexibility and cost. Although it has to be remembered that there are many journeys where adding more than one ticket to a Season will not yield a saving versus just adding the one through ticket.


Whereas I don't find it sordid at all. I'll pay the absolute bare minimum allowed by the rules, conditions, loopholes, routeing guide etc etc. The industry has created the complex system, so I think my reward for unpicking it is to save a bit of dosh.  ;)

This whole area of using the rules to their limit is very much like paying tax (and avoidance and evasion). Both are fiendishly complicated for what are largely good reasons. Rules are written to cover a variety of genuine cases, like having a long-period season ticket (considered as an unlimited free pass over the line concerned) and needed to extend it as a one-off. However, complicated rules do tend to create loopholes - meaning unintended ways to pay less.

The tax laws have for some time contained a catch-all rule that an "artificial" transaction conducted solely to reduce tax can be disregarded. It has proved difficult to use this in practice, as smart lawyers and accountants can usually contrive a reason for anything. Hence the rather surreal sight a a Tory chancellor inveighing against aggressive tax avoidance.

I can see why some railway staff (like most HMRC staff) might see using the rules to the full when they were not put there to allow this specific journey as exploiting a loophole - basically cheating. However, when the rules say that Reading to Swindon is subject to evening off-peak restrictions, while Reading-Didcot and Didcot-Swindon are not, it is awfully hard to see what "deserving" users that was meant for.

I guess that people are divided into two camps over whether exploiting the tax laws to the full is   honest or not. The same may be true of rail fares, though I suspect fewer would disapprove. More, I think, would say both are too complicated; and that this means only a clever, motivated, or otherwise very limited group of people can benefit, which is itself unfair.

Does anyone get the feeling that the complexity of the Fares Structure (and the Tax structure now that stuving mentioned it) Has been patched up in various places with "Hot Fixes" because of problems that should never have occurred or been allowed to occur in the first place?

That raises a new point. Just because you're entitled to travel on a train that doesn't call at the splitting point, does it mean you're entitled to override any ticket type restrictions? I would have thought if "Off peak tickets are not valid on this train" then you can't use split off peak tickets.

Restrictions surely apply on each split section and you need to read the rules and make sure you're OK.

Let's take a journey from Paddington to Melksham on the daily adverised train - 17:45 off Paddington, calling at Reading then non-stop to Swindon. Change at Swindon onto the 18:44 to Melksham, intermediate call at Chippenham, getting to Melksham at 19:11.   And let's split at Cholsey and Didcot, using a season ticket between those two.  Clearly the intended use of the plural in 19(c) as it's simply extending the season ticket at both ends.

From London to Cholsey, I cannot use a CDS at 20.80, as restriction J9 specifies "not the 17:45 off Paddington", and I must buy the more expensive anytime SDS ticket. In contrast, From Didcot to Melksham, the SSS has restriction 2W and that's valid on "Westbound - any train scheduled to leave at or after 10:30" and so I can use that rather than needing to buy a more expensive anytime ticket.

Slight paraphrase / trimming of very long conditions in my quote


Yes - and indeed I when I first started looking at this, I expected to find that it wouldn't be possible to find a lower valid fare for just one journey by purchasing unlimited 7 day travel for part of the route and extension ticket(s) - the whole thought defies common sense.   But I am now aware of a handful of cases where it can be the cheapest valid fare set, including one or two where the saving is significant over a fare which would put me into "I should really drive" mode!

Edit to add second part of reply

The ideal answer would be a much simpler system that doesn't have the same degree of complexity ... even though it would put threads like this out of business.   Not easy to do from where we are today; in order to continue to generate the same income, it would create winners and losers.   The winners would quickly forget their good fortune (or rather the fact they weren't overpaying any more) and the losers would complain right up to the next election, and in the ballot box too ...