Great Western Coffee Shop

Just saw this tender mentioned elsewhere, referring to additional stock for use on Cardiff - Taunton services.  Two sets with at least 275 seats capacity, LHCS is an option (probably by default given the lack of DMU stock off-lease):


The limited info available doesn't say when it is required though...

Paul

I remember a few years back some loco hauled top/tailed services Cardiff to Paignton. Judging by the date of 7th May for tender process ending would it may be for after the Summer as 12 days does not really give enough time I would guess. But it is just that. A guess. Other info would be welcomed if anyone has it

Autumn apparently.

I have just read the article about this in the latest issue of Modern Railways.

FGW are supposed to be looking at hiring in trains to allow for the class 165's to go away for refurbishment work. Chiltern might be able to loan FGW a 165 to cover on certain routes once the Oxford - Bicester Town line is closed for re-building.

Otherwise perhaps 150921 and 150927  could perhaps go to Reading to work alongside 150001 and 150002 to allow some of the class 165's to go off for refurbishment.

I wonder if perhaps we could see DRS used this time since I am not sure if DB have any spare class 67's available with them being used by ATW and Chiltern as well as thunderbird duties

There seems to be some suggestions on other forums that FGW may be looking at copying East Midlands Trains and reforming the class 158's back into 2 carriage units to allow the Cardiff - Portsmouth Hbr trains to be formed of 4 carriages.

FGW would have 20 2-car 158s if they split them back down, plus 3-car 158798. I believe the Portsmouth-Cardiff route needs 8 diagrams, so 16 units for 4-car operation.

Of course this will mean a shortfall of units elsewhere so perhaps this could be where the possible loco hauled sets come into play.

On current timetable would require 9 sets for Pompey as one late Cardiff to Pompey forms a Brighton service off Fratton in the morning.

I will confess I forgot about that morning diagram from Fratton/Portsmouth to Brighton.

If FGW dropped that Brighton service and left it to Southern that would free up one unit for use elsewhere.

No can do without the DfT's say so. The Brighton services are part of the Service Level Commitment within the franchise specification. The first service to Brighton has to originate from Havant or before.

If they didn't want to put a 4-car 158 out on it though there would probably be ways to diagram it differently.

You could take 2 cars off the last Cardiff to Portsmouth at night and not be missed.  However, the 09 00 Brighton requires more than 2 Coaches so would still have to be got round.   Could not be diagrammed to 798 as it couldn't cycle around with anything else and 153s banned from route.

Indeed ... how far does the service have to go?   I'm not sure if it's still the case, but I understand there are / were some refreshed third rail units (class 508?) parked up at Eastleigh and available for hire.   One muses about the idea of using electric trains on an electrified line - to the layman such as myself it seems a bit obvious to do so.

Now there's the age old question that would be raised about using a special type of train for a single specific service and all the spares and maintenance issues that follow with it, and I can't really see First wanting to run 2 x third rail units in their fleet - one running and one spare / repair.   However, do what was done to the local services that call at Dean and Dunbridge and transfer the service to South West Trains, and run them from their Southampton Depot and you've mitigated the problem somewhat.  And you can also get start to remove the "single service" issue by using another unit or two for local services in the Southampton / New Forest area.   There's a weekday diagram for a 158 diesel to Lymington Pier which is essentially all electric.  And I think there may be another such diagram.   And ... before you know it, you're looking at a viable fleet of available trains, releasing 5, 7 or more carriages of 15x class diesel stock.

Losses from these changes?   An early morning Portsmouth - Havant which (if I read the previous post correctly) isn't a franchise requirement.   Not sure how busy that service is?   And the through-ness of Brighton to Malvern.  Alas, that service so often seems to appear on our map at the top of these pages as starting or ending short or ... as as the other day "this service will be terminated at and restarted from Westbury".  Good in terms of serving everywhere, but a bit of an issue for through passengers as the retorted service left before the original arrived, and Westbury doesn't yet have time tradel facilities  ;)

I have used the through Brighton service only twice to/from Bristol: once for leisure and once on business, both in the days when it went to Cardiff.  The problem with a single or perhaps twice daily service is that unless you happen to need to travel when the train goes, the usefulness of it is very limited. (Perhaps we could call it the Melksham Syndrome!)  It becomes a pleasant surprise if you don't have to change.  I had to change on the south coast when I went down on business and waited to catch the through train on the way back.  There were people boarding who were surprised that I was going to Bristol as they assumed they would have to go through London. 

In this case the resources tied up in a very sparse service (Malvern - Brighton) seem to outweigh the benefits of releasing trains for the thriving Cardiff-Portsmouth and Cardiff - Taunton.  If it could be shown that the Brighton service is actually needed for social or other legitimate non-economic reasons (can't think what they could be) then it might fair to insist on its continuation while busier services have standing pax.

How unlike our near neighbours in France with units parked up most of the day just waiting for that one journey.

(PS I am aware that the thread has wandered quite quickly from the title - maybe a change needed?)

I don't think the Brighton service should be withdrawn simply because it is well used with through passengers. If you wanted to concentrate 158s on the Portsmouth-Cardiff route you could run it as a 150+158. The unit isn't really tied up all day just to run one service anyway. FGW would have to provide a replacement from Westbury-Great Malvern at least anyway.

It's south of Westbury for a surprisingly long time - until 11:41 in the morning for the morning peak Brighton service, and then from 13:27 until 19:40 for the evening peak Brighton service.  The evening peak service, though, isn't a 3 car 158 is it?

I seem to recall the 158 from the morning Brighton going up to Malvern, down to Weymouth and then back to Bristol in the evening.  Is that still what it does?

Yes it is. The evening service is also a three-car 158 now, it forms a morning peak service into Bristol, then up to Great Malvern and back to Brighton.

Thanks for your suggestion, trainer: I've now moved this topic from 'Bristol Commuters' to here in 'Looking Forward' and renamed it as above - hope this helps!  :)

A sad example of the implications for Cardiff - Portsmouth services of an incident on the Brighton line, from First Great Western JourneyCheck:

Checking again, (I didn't get all the way down the page) it is from Dec 2014 for 18 months...

Paul

I think they are all beyond re-use in fact.  The only 508 vehicles units that have left the works so far have gone for use as training aids at the fire service college...  Their future re-use with LO is being referred to here and there but I take that with a pinch of salt...


The only logical alternative, if split into DMU/EMU sections, is to have Southern run the service, probably using 377s made available following the Thameslink re-organisation.  However this is academic because DfT wish to keep the through service. 

SWT's Southampton (Northam) depot is only set up and organised for deep maintenance of the entire Desiro fleet, and a very small amount of overnight berthing of Desiros - most of which stable at other depots.

Paul

Are the Portsmouth - Cardiff services often busy into/out of Portsmouth or are the vast majority of the capacity issues between Southampton and Cardiff? Do the franchise-required Brightons have to run at certain times?

If the answer to the first questions is 'they aren't that busy' and the second 'no' then could you run 4-car Southampton - Cardiff (maybe reduced to every two hours between Bristol and Cardiff when electrification is done if a Cardiff - Bath EMU service is introduced) with 2 coaches detaching for Brighton a few times a day?

Moving the Brighton services to a different time might allow them to run behind a Southern service so most passengers not going beyond Southampton will board the Southern train instead meaning 2-car 158 shouldn't be that busy.

The services at the Portsmouth end of the line are busy in the sense that they are the only fast services to Southampton, and for places like Fareham and Cosham there is a half hour gap from Portsmouth in service from the previous Waterloo via Eastleigh service. Whilst the FGW services aren't full to the brim leaving Portsmouth, they still have good patronage.

There's little in the way of time requirements for the Southampton-Brighton services, except that two services in each direction must be provided between 0630-1830 Mon-Sat. On Sundays it's four services between 0930-2230 arriving Brighton and three services between 1000-1800 departing Brighton

What FGW have to provide between Southampton and Brighton is laid out in the Service Level Commitment of the franchise:

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4113/fgwcommitment2b.pdf#page=79

Of course in the franchise extension being negotiated - this could be negotiated out in order to use the additional rolling stock elsewhere

But it would seem unlikely because the Brighton service were still going to be part of the now aborted new franchise. The consultation did suggest getting rid of them but it seems the feedback suggested they should stay, and why not if they're popular and well used.

.... and a nice little ORCATS earner for the franchisee.

You couldn't reduce them to 2-car at any point without causing overcrowding then?

I don't live down that way anymore, but I think anything less than 3-car would cause an uproar. The majority of other trains in the Portsmouth area are at least three or four car, whilst this is arguably because that is the shortest of the rolling stock available to SWT and Southern, it does reflect the high patronage in the area. Cosham for example, is just an ordinary station in a suburb, yet has twice the patronage of what some might consider more important stations such as Westbury!

Posted over on wnxx that DVT 82309  has arrived at Barton hill for training crews ready for May when FGW are going to put a loco hauled set on the service between Cardiff & Bristol TM  during the peaks.

Traction is expected to be a class 67 & DVT with some mark 3's

The person who has posted this is a member of FGW staff  who is in the know and is normally prettty much on the ball.

Where the mark3 carriages are comming from I do not know although I wouldnt be too surprised if these were the 3 spare carriages from ATW unless Chiltern cant get some refreshed before May.

And could it not equally be possible that the Arriva UK owned DVT 82309 is at Arriva UK owned (subsidiary LNWR Co. Ltd) Barton Hill for maintenance?

How much crew training can be done on a static vehicle in a depot?

Be nice though if it is there for introduction into passenger service from May. A tender was issued by FGW in April 2013 for loco hauled or alternative passenger rolling stock for the Cardiff-Taunton route. That contract's duration is 31 months from 9th December 2014. I haven't seen a variation or different tender starting in May.

It doesn't appear that FGW have made a public tender for rolling stock from May 2014.

Could be what it is however  there is now some conflicting reports.

So I think it is going to be best to assume the worst case scenario and we wont be getting a loco hauled rake although we can keep out fingers crossed.

From higher up the page:
I wonder whether it will be 67s and DVTs though or if the new class 68s will come and play.

I attended a presentation about the Class 68s recently. They will only be able to multiple work among themselves and, IIRC, the Class 88 electrics. As the DVTs use RCH connectors for the TDM signals for current push pull operation I don't think this is likely. Unless of course the coaching stock is modified to suit.

Pity, though. 3,700bhp out of an 84 tonne loco would go quite well.

Not all DVTs use TDM over RCH, the ones that work with class 67s for Chiltern and ATW (numbered in the 823xx series) and the EWS/DB management train have been modified to use a different multiple working system (something to do with association of American railroads I think).

Also, Direct Rail Services has a DVT (82101) which I saw outside their Crewe depot last winter and was moved to Barrow Hill on 30/01/2014 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/xtrmntr007/12227088273/). No idea what they inted to do with it though.

Ah! I had forgotten the Chiltern setup when I wrote my post. Yes, the 67s use the Association of American Railroads (AAR) system for multiple unit operation. I don't think the Class 68s use the AAR system (I don't have the notes I made at the presentation to hand) but it is entirely possible that they could modify their DVT to work with the new locomotives, although I suspect the intervening coaches will also require some changes.
DRS certainly emphasised the dual purpose use of their new locomotives, they can supply 500kW of ETH power, so it is entirely likely that they will be used in passenger service in the future. Whether that will only be charter trains - already a significant market for DRS - or also include scheduled trains was not entirely clear.