Great Western Coffee Shop

I turned up at my local restaurant on the off chance that they had a table and was shown an unreserved one near a window.  Unfortunately part way through my meal I was asked to move as this specific table had been reserved after I had arrived and the restaurant policy was that reservations by phone took priority over diners simply turning up at the door even if those customers were already eating.  Everything had to be moved with a great deal of fuss, but just as I settled to recommence eating, it happened again.  Of course, I shall not be returning.

The above anecdote is entirely fictitious, but Crosscountry Trains appear to have introduced a policy in which the above scenario is all too real (except it's travel not food).  I am sure that anyone affected will find that there is no similar uncertainty with their cars, the coach or indeed, flying if the distance is great.

I find this particular company becoming the least easy to use on a casual basis.  I know they have been lumbered with some of the worst and smallest long distance trains built, but surely this kind of policy is likely to leave an unpleasant memory for anyone who becomes victim to it and word-of-mouth will do much damage.  I've read the blurb on the website and the theory looks good, but I'm not sure how easy it is to use in practice

If anyone had positive or negative experiences with the system in reality, I'd be interested to hear about them.

I guess you're talking about the text message reservation system. Such seats have got a weasel-worded "This seat may be reserved" on the electronic display. There are only a few such seats on each train.

The system seems fine. If you're worried about having to move, I guess you should treat it as any other reserved seat. If you're only traveling only a few stops, you might choose to sit in it over a seat marked 'reserved', as there is less chance of it being occupied (well, maybe, would be interesting to know the no-show rate on reserved seats, vs. text message seat occupation).

To extend your analogy, the restaurant has a table labeled "Maybe Reserved", and it is explained that someone might reserve the table by text message for use in 20 minutes times, you would be welcome to use it and have a cup of tea, but if you wanted to stay all night, he would recommend you reserved it by text message yourself, or use a properly unreserved table instead.

The situation you describe aleph_0 is how it the system worked when first introduced, but the system now is a shambles. All seats now either show reserved or not reserved but may be reserved later. Even if a seat has already been reserved for months in advance the system won't say reserved from x, just may be reserved later. I don't know if 10 minute reservations are still only available on a few seats but even if they are it's now impossible to tell which seats they are. You're only hope now if you don't have a reservation is Coach B if you are lucky enough to have a 221 or otherwise one of the few unreserved seats spread through the train.

Oh, wow, that is a bit rubbish. Sorry about the confusion. Given the length of XC routes, I agree it's important that seats say "Reserved from X". My last few XC journeys have been at quiet times, so I hadn't noticed the changes.

Even then some passengers choose to ignore clearly reserved seats even with a paper label flag.

I may have posted this before so apologies if old ground. On an FGW service not too long ago. It was full and standing and I had a reserved seat (very rare for me!). During the journey nature called and I tottled off towards the toilet. A middle aged woman then decided to occupy my seat which was very quickly noticed when I returned from the Karzi.

I politely said that she had sat in my seat and was greates with an almost unbelievable response of "you left the seat so therefore you've lost it" ... "Well with all due respect and actually the respect of our fellow passengers, I thought it more appropriate to go to the toilet at the end of the carriage rather than the seat I was already sat in!" ... "Well does the seat have your name on it? Exactly!!" ... </smug trout = on> "Well actually love, if you look on that label above the seat, you'll see it has reserved written on it along with my Surname... So, yes, that seat does have my name on it!"

The woman's face was a picture!

Even if the seat reservation label didn't have your name on it you could show your reservation ticket, not that you should have to.

I absolutely agree that it is wrong to sit in a reserved seat and not move if the rightful 'owner' turns up.  I think it's the lack of warning that any reservable seat on an XC train might become someone's means that informed choice (a concept much beloved of many professions these days) as to whether to travel by such a train is asking for unhappy passengers.  It's embarrassing all round, making a perfectly legitimate decisions to sit down suddenly a publicly seen cause of conflict.

I have read the Terms and Conditions and they do say only a limited number of seats are reservable at short notice.  I note Southern Stag's helpful comments and I couldn't see any available seats in the carriage I used not long ago without a caveat of some sort about potential impending use.

The last time I travelled on XC trains I found an unreservable seat, but previously have sat tensely at each station wondering whether I might be asked to move.  I admit, that normally if I was travelling a long distance, I would reserve, but then I worry I will get the backward facing 'pillar' seat.  :'(

tt's comments show that the paper reservation can have some advantages for the pax, but as Timmer points out, if you haven't booked it, it's not yours regardless of name.  Like you aleph_0 I tend to travel off peak, but on a long distance train, peaks come and go during the journey.  And thanks for indulging me with my restaurant analogy  :).

I think it's a little bit more subtle. Paper reservations are better than the current implementation of electronic reservations, but there's no reason that should be the case. The main problem is the need to determine quickly if a seat is reserved. The sea of paper tickets is effective in this aim. My memory is a little rusty, but I think virgin West Coast have static one-word descriptions to get around this.

If designing new, I'd suggest each display has an LED adjacent to it, coloured (e.g.) Green (or maybe unlit) if the seat is Unreserved, Yellow if it is reserved later in the journey, and Red if it's reserved from this, or a previous, stop. In doing so, we've replicated, and improved on, the main functionality of paper tickets. The displays should be of sufficient size to display information without scrolling.

Of course, I've entered fantasy land. However, under the constraints of the current displays, it's clear a lot more thought could be put in to it. If you have scrolling text, every letter counts. I'd suggest carefully thinking about the exact phrasing, abbreviation station names as appropriate (reservations until Bristol Parkway and/or Bristol TM might be better displayed as just Bristol, for example). And the apparent switch to just displaying "Reserved Later" is demonstrably silly.

The last system XC had was probably the best, but it only lasted for a short while. Seats either showed available, reserved or available until x. That meant there was much less scrolling. The only problem was that there was no indication of where a seat was reserved from and too. One of the main drawbacks on the electronic reservations is that you don't know if the seat is reserved again later on in the journey, so if the seat says reserved from x to y but nobody turns up for it, you don't know whether you're safe to sit in it, or whether somebody else has reserved it further down the line. With paper labels you can tell that.

Except, when I got a ride on the Pretendolino, as far as I noticed the paper labels just said the seat was reserved at some point in the journey. I had no idea between which stations or even whether it was reserved more than once, luckily for me since I was only going one stop and the carriage was almost empty it didn't matter.

When travelling to London with my family (2 + 2 kids) I always try to reserve a table (stop laughing at the back!) and pretty much always get 2 backward facing pillar seats. I suppose I should be grateful that they put the kids in the same carriage as us (although come to think of it... no, dismiss that thought!).

As I understand it, it's a condition of carriage that you have to use your reserved seat (these would be 'Advance' tickets, bought through FGW via nationalrail.co.uk), so it's always a bit frustrating to have to sit in our rotten seats when there are tables free elsewhere on the train.

It's in the terms and conditions but in practice it is rarely enforced. If you are worried you could always as the guard first before you move.

I travewlled yesterday. The electtronic displays did either say 'Reserved from x to y, or 'May be reserved from x to y', I guess because they may have been fully reserved after y. The information given allowed me to find a seat not reservable before I got to my destination (only 3 stops including mine, 50 minutes).

You can book specific seats on the XC website during ticket purchase. You can even change the allocated seat that XC offers you.

I would strongly recommend this if travelling any distance. I believe yopu can at ticket offices also.

I have travelled between Bristol and Manchester several times recently on business, and I am reaching the conclusion that CrossCountry is not viable for walk-up travel.

My journeys have been at short notice (such that I cannot reserve ahead) and in my opinion relatively expensive (^158 anytime return). On each occasion I have been unable to find vacant seats which are completely unreserved; they either show "reserved" for part of the journey, or "may be reserved" for part or all of the journey. On those seats which "may be reserved" for part of the journey, it is not clear whether the remaining part of the journey is reserved or unreserved. I have found myself having to change seats once or twice en route to vacate seats for reservation holders, or at least worrying that I am going to be thrown out of my seat at each station.

Apparently I can do reservations by text 10 minutes or more before the departure from any station (no need to prove I have a ticket, anyone can do this if they wish). So in theory, if I get on the train at Manchester and find it full, presumably I can text and book a reservation from Stockport to Bristol, and then attempt to throw the occupant of the reserved seat out when the train reaches Stockport. I can see all sorts of arguments arising.

More to the point, I am annoyed that CrossCountry are quite happy to relieve me of ^158 for a walk-up ticket, and yet they do not provide a realistic prospect of finding an unreserved seat.

I think you can also reserve at ticket offices up till 10 minutes before departure - so just remember to do so when you buy your ticket?

I agree it's a pain though, but not so difficult once you get used to their way of doing things. I have never failed to obtain a reservation using the 10 minute booking when I think it'll be busy, only once has someone had to move.....

Not sure about ticket offices, but the self-service ticket machines which I use certainly don't provide this facility. It looks like the text option is my best bet in future. I found a good alternative on my last trip back from Manchester: Arriva Trains Wales to Newport and change for Bristol. A longer journey, but very pleasant and comfortable, and a choice of empty, unreserved seats throughout the journey.

I don't think you can reserve at a ticket office ten minutes before hand. Lots of people see the ten minute reservation system as the problem rather than the solution anyway.

Exactly so.

This is what is in the IEP specification:

TS640 The automatic seat reservation system must deliver the following functionality:

• interface directly with the Relevant Operator^s seat reservation system (which shall be assumed to be the same as the national seat reservation system). The reservation system shall utilise this data to maintain the reservation database for each IEP Train; 
• automatic remote download of reservation data via a communications link immediately prior to the start of a timetabled journey within a maximum of 5 minutes after the service to be operated has been confirmed to the IEP Train; 
• allow on board train crew to load or update seat reservation data for that IEP Train; 
• displays for each seat must indicate whether that seat is free, reserved for part of or for the remainder of the journey. The method of display must be easy for passengers to interpret quickly when boarding, and shall seek to convey an overall impression of
  the extent of reserved and unreserved seats within the saloon; and 
• displays must be automatically updated throughout a journey to indicate the current reservation status for the remainder of the journey.

Presumably that represents what the TOCs and DfT think ought to be provided.

It does not look to me quite like the results of modern system design practice, meaning that you start by describing who uses it, what for, and what they are doing. If I try that, I get:

Passengers with reserved seats: strictly they need nothing, other than to easily find their carriage (displays inside and out required for IEP) and seat (no requirement for numbering!). Since we all know it needs to show "reserved" for other reasons, these passengers need it to do so too. Also, if there is a dispute, they need something to point to (see below).

Passengers without reservations: need to easily pick out seats free now, and if possible for their journey. Without reservations during the journey, the minimum is "free until x" or "reserved". Having "reserved until y" is better if you may have to stand and wait for a seat.

If you add reserving seats during the journey, that possibility could be indicated by static signs or the display. However, if there are unreservable seats, they need to be indicated.

If there is any dispute, both passengers and train staff need what has already been defined. If extra information can be provided, e.g. origin and time of reservation, that may help staff in particular sort out who is right, but also to spot system errors or the results of abuse of the system. A case can be made for such extra information to be provided only to staff.

Note that I agree the wording needs come care - the TOCs might not like "free", but labels including "reserved" plus qualifications do get rather long, and there are few good alternatives.

In addition to spec. item 4 in TS640 above, there is more help on offer to find free seats.  The IEP specification also includes a passenger counting capability, which surprises me - I had no idea that is now reliable enough to support this feature:

TS1931 The PIS must utilise the data from the passenger counting system to indicate to passengers within the IEP Train the status of the occupancy of each IEP Vehicle.

It occurs to me that passengers would find life a lot easier if most trains used their displays in the same way. That could emerge from the national ticketing setup, though that looks unlikely at the moment. It should not be difficult to alter trains already in service, since this is "only software".

(PIS = Passenger Information System)

Made me think of this system in use in Gunwharf Quays (Portsmouth) car park. Wonder if it could be adapted for use in a train? Lights hang over each bay and show red when occupied and green when free. Also, drivers can be directed at junctions to another area where a defined amount of spaces are available.

Illustrated in this blog:
http://cherrybyte.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/car-park-signing-in-gunwharf-quays.html
And a closer picture of the lights:
http://stuartmale.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/parking-lights-1.jpg?w=640

I think there is a similar system in use at some Heathrow T5 car parks.

Always worth remembering is that on a five car XC Voyager the whole of coach B will be fully unreserved, on a four car there are usually batches of unreserved seats in the high numbers of coach C which will only be booked if specifically requested or if the journey being made cannot be accommodated in one of the lower numbered seats, ie someone wanting a seat from Cheltenham to Edinburgh but all the other seats are booked Plymouth to Birmingham. Along with that there are seats in coaches C and D which do not have reservation screens and are therefore never reserved.

The problem with the system is that it keeps being tinkered with by people who don't have to work the trains and deal with the aftermath. The current display set up now not only has to download all the reservations to the train (using nothing more technical than an old dial up modem) but also has to download text and stations for each seat when it 'may be reserved later'. This is a nightmare when trying to download in an area of poor signal, with the train sometimes just 'giving up' half way through the download due to a disconnected phone line.

The problem is most likely going to get worse as XC try to move people towards purchasing tickets from the XC website and ticketing app, both of which offer reservations on the day. XC are not fans of passengers purchasing open tickets at booking offices, as although it may be the traveller's intention to only travel on CrossCountry services, they still need to pay the seller's fee to another TOC, I believe 9% is the rate for that. Not a problem so long as it's an hour before departure from the originating station as it will show in the initial download, but afterwards, although the train dials up to check for new information and in theory reservation displays will be updated, in practice, there's already so much data in the train management system, that it doesn't recognise the odd new reservation

Thanks for posting those very informed points in explanation of the problems, readytostart!  :)

It also doesn't help that it went from a trial of eight standard and two first class seats per train to almost the whole train despite there not being the demand for it. Personally I would have thought that a phased introduction in line with rising demand would have been better. Even then I would have always left a designated area where seats could never be reserved.

Of course, the major problem is that the CrossCountry network currently has insufficient capacity versus the number of people wishing to travel on it.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the architects of Voyagerisation and Operation Princess in the early/mid 2000s (Virgin, the DfT, and the worst culprit, Richard Bowker, first with Virgin and then the SRA) didn't foresee or plan for future growth.

Increasing frequency was all well and good, but there was little consideration given to additional bums on seats.

There was never a truer posting than this. I wholeheartedly agree.

 I do believe that it was DaFT that would not permit Virgin XC to obtain further Voyagers (or carriages), though I am unable to quote chapter and verse.

A similar situation to First TPE who wishes to order more Class 185s than DaFT would agree to. Subsequently fTPE were given the Manchester Glasgow/Edinburgh routes with no additional stock. This results in gross overcrowding on many services between Manchester and Leeds, and Manchester and Sheffield - e.g. 1520 Manchester Piccadilly to Cleethorpes (Doncaster only at the moment) is a single two car 170 which is full and standing from Manchester, and full and "all breath in and out at the same time please" from Sheffield at 1611.

Though the TPE situation will soon be eased as the Scottish services become electric releasing the Class 185s for strengthening of their other services.

Well, there is a reason why no XC Voyager had a coach E, was initially a plan to increase the four cars to five (adding a coach B) and the five cars to six (adding a coach E) but the DFT refused to fund it.

Travelled Bristol TM to Paignton last Sunday afternoon at 1615. My ticket said Coach F35A Reserved. Someone else was sat in it with white earphones in. Then I discovered that the train seats had numbers that were different to the numbers next to the scrolling displays. So which do you follow... the electronic gizmo or the numbers on the seats ?. I gave up and sat in an empty seat and my print at home ticket was given just the briefest cursory glance on the barriers at TM. It was so small(one quarter of a A4 sheet) that I know he couldn't have read it properly. No one else looked at it except me when I threw it away at journeys end.

Conversely the return ticket was scrutinised as if it was the Magana Carta at Paignton, on board by the Train Manager and at the exit barrier at TM. In fact the FGW woman brandishing the barrier card  took so long looking at it, I asked to be let through !. The scrolling displays continued to advertise the reservations for the completed down  journey, long after we left Paignton this morning. As a result people were just shrugging their shoulders and sitting anywhere !

The XC HST I caught from Plymouth to Totnes on Friday had both the electronic displays and the paper reservations in use.

The seat next to me had a seat top ticket reserving the seat from Newton Abbot to Birmingham New Street and the display said it was available until Newton Abbot which obviously ties in but it caused a few delays as some people stopped to read both bits of information above a seat before deciding to sit down and clear the aisle.