Great Western Coffee Shop

http://forum.moretrainlessstrain.co.uk/index.php?topic=103.0 (http://forum.moretrainlessstrain.co.uk/index.php?topic=103.0)

but can someone tell how these numbties intend to access Bath Plymouth Swindn Oxford and Reading when all of these stations have these

(http://www.wokingcycle.org.uk/images/station1.jpg)

WHAT A GROUP OF IDIOTS MR AMBROSE AND HIS GANG ARE!

See my comment - 2 posts down -  Graham

"There are ways around this without us touching them. We have absolutely no inention of doing anything illegal."

So fare evasion isn't illegal anymore? Wow, I'm really not up to date anymore.

If you disagree with the tactics / approach taken by "More Train Less Strain", I think you'll do far better by taking a reasoned approach that by shouting things which are verging on personal attacks on them here on this board.

Quite apart from anything else, all of our posters here signed up to our terms when they joined, and they allow you to disagree, but require that you stop short of personal attacks.   And whether or not I might agree with your views of someone else, I and my fellow moderators will enforce this rule ...

Whether or not you think there tactics are stupid or not and whether or not you think their actions are illegal or not, they will suceed in getting press coverage and some of the mud will stick at FGW and some at DfT.  I for one think that that is a good thing.  our fares are too high, our trains are too crowded and MLTS have every right to highlights those facts becaus ethey are true.

Whether they prove their point or not they will still have a criminal record long after FGW cease to exist so who really gets the last laugh? FGW!

Are these people off their heads?

"FGW ANNOUNCES BREATH TAKING FARE INCREASES"

Surely the whole country should be on a fare strike

They do have a right to do it, and will excersise it, BUT at the same time, FGW have a right to prosucute, and should excersise it!

You don't not pay for fuel at the garage becaause it is too expensive,
You don't not pay for the Coffee because it tasted horriable,
You don't ask for a refund when you go to a film but didn't like it!

So WHATS THE DIFFERENCE!

Well actually, if I did have a horrible cup of coffee I would refuse to pay for it

Ok, point taken, but you know what I blinking well mean!

"Evasion - to escape or avoid by cunning"

I don't think the protestors would be guilty of fare evasion, as they would all be making it clear to First Great Western what they are doing and why. I suspect that's why last time FGW let them have their moment of glory.

I think a few contributors seem not to appreciate that many of us are fed up with the service we are getting and the fare increases well above inflation. Frustrated by the lack of ability to do anything else, this is their answer. But ask yourself this, if it hadn't been for the antics of MTLS first time around, which was highly effective in getting national publicity, would the 158s imported from First Transpennine have arrived so quickly? Would there have been a fare cut in the summer? Would Andrew Haines have ousted Ms Forster? Would the local refurbs be a bit more comprehensive? I suspect not. 

So for those of you critical of MTLS, tell me, how would you protest against the service and fares? Or would you not bother?     

By producing a false ticket is fare evasion, and to refuse to pay is contrary to section 5 of the regulation of railways act 1889, also there is a byelaw offence of "travelling on a railway wihout a ticket" which is the "get out of jail card" for train companies when the evidence is dodgy and is basicly anyone who doesn't hold a valid ticket after having the opportunity to buy one can be prosecuted under that byelaw. As for what MTLS think they achieved last time..... well not a lot really, the TPE units were destined for FGW anyway, the units were to be refurbished anyway, they would have had to act on the overcrowding no matter what and the last fare strike was a joke anyway because only about 2 people actually took part! If FGW is that bad then go by bus or drive, you may then realise just how lucky we are to have a train service!

I do love the "There are ways around this without us touching them. We have absolutely no inention of doing anything illegal."

...oh wait :D

what a load of baloany! our trains are to crowded. You talk of crowded trains as if it's a new phenomenon. The fact of the matter is crowded trains have been about since........well the outset of the train actually, so your argument don't hold a lot of water there. Do yourself a favour and take a trip up to Clapham Junction and then you'll see a real crowded train ( a lot of them actually) you may have a different veiw of things then. The fares well they are a tad on the dear side I admit, so drive your car and pay for the parking and you'll find that it will probably add to more than ^6.80 Bath to Bristol. Like Jim says there are many things that I think are expensive PETROL, COUNCIL TAX, MARS BARS, BEER ELECTRIC and GAS but that don't give me the right not to pay for them. Love em or Hate em I hope that FGW dig in their heels on this one mud sticking or not and I hope anyone getting caught gets prosecuted! 

I'd like to announce the formation of MMBLM or More Mars Bars Less Money. We will be holding a 32p strike where everyone refuses to pay for their Mars bar on a specific date due to be announced shortly. We are sick of the constant rise in the cost of confectionery and we will now take the chocolate until the shops lower their prices!

Just thought - platform tickets come to mind.

Genuine question for you, 12hoursunday, so dont bite my head off :

I notice from your profile that your website is listed as "rmt union." In the past the RMT has been very supportive of MTLS and their aims.

Are your views purely personal, or do they reflect official RMT policy?

By the way, dont take me asking as a criticism of the union or its views. I regularly include links to the RMT Bristol Rail Branch website (along with links to many other groups/organisations), as part of our attempts to provide a balanced cross-section of views.

I doubt FGW are going to issue platform tickets if they know whats going to happen

Lee 
The postings I post are the views of myself however there have been others on here that I think feel the same or have similar views to mine Your right it what you say re the RMT and their association with MTLS however I am unsure if they have or would support the breaking of the law. Whether your the jumped little hoodie sneaking a ride from Oldfield Park to Keynsham or a group of grown up's frustrated over what has become of British Railways ( it ain't only happening in this neck of the woods you know) it is unlawful to a travel or attempt to travel on the railway network without buying a ticket. Doing so only puts futher pressure on the rail staff you say you support and feel sorry for.

MTLS should should take a long look at what they intend to do to try to make train companies change their minds or maybe even influence them into making changes into what they do now, they are acting in a  unprofessional and irresponsible manner by asking passengers to break the law on-mass. Someone may end up with egg on their chin, and it won't be Firstgroup!

This is following up on earlier posts, not the very latest exchange. As you can imagine, it's taken a bit of a while to prepare!

Some of you old hands may find this a bit of a "repeat" from me - but we have many new users here (to whom I extend the very warmest of welcomes) who may wish to hear my view on Fare Strikes as the administaror of the board.  And I'll take the opportinity to fill a few other things in, in context, too.

If a safe, reliable, comfortable, low cost, fast, clean train service, which ran at times when we all wanted to travel, with a clear system of ticketing and easily accessible information, with excellent road interchange was provided, allowing us to travel from Paddington to Windsor, from Paignton to Copplestone, from Great Malvern to London, from Chippenham to Salisbury and from Melksham to Oxford when we wanted, a forum like this would be a truely quiet place and perhaps it wouldn't exist at all. But the fact that I, as a private individual, raised 1700 signatures including 8 MPs, 5 MEPs, countless councillors .... for a petition calling for an appropriate train service from Westbury to Swindon and on other illogically slashed services (be it in number of trains, schedule, or capacity) indicated that all is not well - from the point of view of the passenger - in some parts of First's empire.  Thus, this site.

And it's not here to slag off, to critisize for the sake of it, or to moan.  Those things will occur - and perhaps they're the first necessary step in identifying a problem to look to doing something about it. 

Some matters - informational matters such as ticket availablilty, how weekend first works, where to see interesting train formations, we as passengers can help each other.  A question asked, views and answers given, and a matter resolved. But other matters aren't within the remit of the passenger to deal with. 

Even with the help of other passengers, we can't simply club together and buy or lease ourselves a "153" and run it up and down between Chippenham and Salisbury every 2 hours.  So that's where we need to constructively engage the Train Operator, the Franchise awarder, the local transport authorities who are at the front line of that provision, and a huge raft of other influencers and interested parties ranging from Network rail to our MPs, and from the Press to Passenger Focus.  In these cases, the forum is useful to discuss the most effective way to make such approaches and to have the case heard, seriously considered, and have sensible conclusions reached.

There is no perfect approach. "Meek and Mild" has been tried. The result is along the lines of "never mind the people of Melksham - they'll put up with crap and not complain" which leads to people in my home town being walked all over. Just two trains a day - at 06:18 and 18:45 from our main centre - and a population of 24,000 is absurd. And the bus alternative takes 95 minutes versus 25, with changes necessary on the way too.

My own approach is "Constructive engagement" - looking to work with people within the current system (all be it pointing out the inadequacies of the system from time to time) with an eye to reaching and retaining the desired target.  At times I'm not sure how it's working - someone copied an email to me just the other day that talked about a "cunning plan" from one of the main players, and I'm hoping that the cunning plan is NOT to spend so long discussing things that - oops - another deadline has been missed.  "Constructive engagement" needs, to some extend, some teeth - it can't be "Meek and Mild".

More provocative approaches may be tried ... although they may tend to antagonise the very people who have to be on board at the end of the day.  I'm personally not averse to, on occasions, doing something to embarrass people (and, yes, I have been known to do so) but it must be done in such a way that they know why I am doing it.  I will stop short of doing anything which I know to be illegal, or I suspect may be illegal, or to encourage others to do so.

I have to take my hat off and salute the people who HAVE taken the more provocative approaches, and to congratulate them on publicity whihc has helped us all - and in some cases has helped their case to be heard loudly to the near-exclusion of ours on the TransWilts.   Just ONE of the extra coaches that First added to trains to ease overcrowding could have been used to provide a service on the TransWilts that would have provided rather more that merely eased a squeeze or saved a further 30 minutes wait for the next train. Our gap is 12 HOURS between trains!  However - there SHOULD be room for all of us, and I have no desire what so ever to say "take that train away from X and give it to me".  To suggest that there aren't trains available for lease is a convenient falasy - the two extra 150 units that arrived recently actually caused accountant-type questions in FGW I'm told, and there are perhaps other 142s and certainly 180s that could feed a cascade.

Now some specifics for the forum. We have a whole load of constraints on us - ranging from copyright, discrimination through decency, libel and slander to consider as we moderate the boards.  We also have to consider carefully any posts which could be seen as attacking people personally or inciting others to break that law.  Whilst we can't be responsible for a post as it is being made, we can (and do) take reasonable steps to remove posts that contravene these legal matters quite quickly, and if we failed to do so there would be a responsibility on us too.  Myself and the other moderators are, of course, far more aware of the details of these various issues and we also talk amongst oursleves to give a correct and clear response as necessary.  Such responses, though, are sympathetic - we will not delete a post without comment or explanation, especially from an established poster, but rather will ask for it to be modified and explain why that needs to be done.  After all - we very much want to keep everyone on board, and provide a forum to help us push for a situation where we do ourselves out of a job. That means  a safe, reliable, comfortable, low cost, fast, clean train service, which ran at times when we all wanted to travel, with a clear system of ticketing and easily accessible information, with excellent interchange ...

Rail companies are required to issue tickets that exist when are request to do so - no questions asked.

If someone buys a platform ticket to get through the barrier then the offence has been committed, i'll bet plain clothes RPI's will be out and about on that day!

Erm - not really .... if someone doesn't travel then a platform ticket is still required to get through the barrier....

If the "intent" was there to buy a platform ticket to gain access to a train then an offence has been committed, "intent" is the golden word and if FGW can prove that intent then thats fare evasion, the "suspect" is decieving the barrier staff by doing so and thus obtaining services by deception!  ;D

Very very true ;)

spoke to an RPI Today who was on the platform at Southall who was on his way to BATH SPA of all places

I won't participate in a fare strike myself and I understand that is would be against the law and that those who do take part run a risk of being prosecuted and if they are they only have themselves to blame, but I really can't understand the hatred that some of the railway professionals appear to have against the MTLS fare strike.  You guys do seem to take the whole idea of travel without a ticket (which I agree is illegal and should not be encouraged) very personally. 

I am not sure that I fully understand why. 

The strike is an attack on the company FGW not individual RPI, drivers, platform staff or guards and many of you show little sympathy with FGW on other matters.  Some of you have critisiced them on this forum and some of you are members of unions which have called for FGW to be stripped of their franchise.  Why are you so strongly behind your company on this issue over all others?  Has FGW indoctrinated you against MTLS?   Did terrible things happen to you at the last strike?  Are you in fear for your safety? 

For those of you working during the strike, it might not be a typcial day, but I don't think that you will be personally threatened or physically abused and it might even be more intersteresting day than the normal routine. 

Genuine questions.  I think that there is something about the fare strike that has really caught a nerve and I am not sure what it is.

You will find that most people who work on the railway are a special breed (myself included) who are passionate about the RAILWAY in general, OK FGW might not be perfect BUT it's our job and we will always try to carry out our job to the highest standard, at the end of the day most railway workers are on good money and it's FGW that pay the mortgage and the bills. Also I believe that the MTLS are going the wrong way about taking action, and to be honest, it's a waste of time and effort, haven't they got anything more productive to do with their spare time, like go to the pub? watch some paint dry? ???

So, what type of 'fare strike' are they planning then, if it's not traveling without a ticket?

Buying a 100% valid ticket for your journey that costs less than it should? ;)

Like a FOSS for a Bomo - Cardiff return for example!

Thanks for the answer.  I agree that you are a special breed (which is a good thing).  So I guess you take it personally because to you it is personal (because of the loyalty you have to your railway), but I am still not convinced that your mortgage payments are at risk because of lost revenue (at the last strike most people had some kind of ticket or season ticket and the main damage to FGW was the bad publicity rather than lost fares - bad publicity can be good if it gets things improve and you caould argue that some of the attempted improvements we have seen recently are a response to the publicity?) Many of your passengers, myself included,  have a personal attachment and loyalty to our railway too but it makes me angry that that loyalty is abused by masive fare increases, a worstening service and profiteering private companies.  People like Tony Ambrose are not organising MTLS for their own profit but I suspect because they care about the railway just as much as you or I do.  Sure their reasons for caring might be different but most of your business and commuter passengers depend on the railway to pay their mortgages just as much as you do (just less directly).

MTLS may be wrong, Grahame's constructive engagement approach might be better (Personally I think both approaches are needed and have respect for both Grahame and Tony), but the folks who organise and take part in fare strikes and who write to their MPs and newpapers about poor service are not doing it because they are chancers who think they can save a few quid.  They are doing it because they care about our railway and are angry about hwta is happening to it and in that regard at least we are all on the same side.

I think MTLS might have been sturring things up in Cornwall, as when fed up commuters where interviewed for a local radio station they said they may participate in a fare strike.