Great Western Coffee Shop

Article from Railnews about remotoring of the Class 455 fleet.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2013/04/15-porterbook-announces-40m-fleet-upgrade.html

Has also been reported by the BBC.

This article also mentions that Portebrook is considering a similar upgrade for the FCC 319s, some of which may well find their way to Great Western.

Someone veheremently disagreed with a similar comment I made about 319s coming FGWs way elsewhere, saying the new build going initially to Southern would find its way instead - citing the DfTs requirement that the EMUs for GW had to be capable of 110mph, which the 319s aren't apparently.

So what is the top speed for 319s?

Top speed of 319s is 100mph. Furthermore Poterbrook are proposing one option for the 319s being reconfigured to 3-car formation and/or being re-geared to a max speed of 75mph, with the benefit of quicker acceleration.

When Great Western Electrification was announced, it was stated that Thames Valley suburban stock would be Class 319s, released from Thameslink by new build stock. Some 319s would also go the North West. As I recall, Lord Adonis said that it was this cheap rolling stock solution that had made electrification affordable.

Plans change with time, of course, and aspirations within Franchise ITTs always make good reading.

As for the trains that Southern are procuring, the February edition of Modern Railways reports that the DFT has said that initially they could be used on Thameslink routes and then, as new Thameslink stock becomes available, move to newly electrified routes "such as the Midland main line to Corby and North Tranpennine routes". No mention of Great Western there, I'm afraid.

3 carriage class 319's regeared to 75mph would be ideal for the Cardiff Valley lines network being younger than the class 315's we are supposed to be having.

A suggestion that has popposed up on another forum is perhaps the Grater Anglia franchise getting new rolling stock (E.G. additional class 379's) to provide additional capacity and displace the class 360's. The idea was could these class 360's be upgraded to run at 110mph like the class 350/1's?

This announcement was made when the initial GW electrification to Oxford and Newbury substantially Bristol and the South Wales has been added.  Also it was stated that the 319's would have air con fitted when they migrated to the GW. 

The Thameslink stock is a long way off much of the Thameslink Program power supply and route mods are being done to the DfT concept class 700.

There could be some 365's being released from the FCC Peterborough and Cambridge routes in 2018 when the full Thameslink service through Canal Tunnels comes in, now 365's for the GW TV suburban's wouldn't be too bad

Meanwhile in the Southern Daily Echo, the trains are being built in Eastleigh!


http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10358162.__40m_train_upgrade_for_Eastleigh/

A much quiter Turbo!

With a happy smiley face.  :D

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Class_365_near_Watlington.jpg/300px-Class_365_near_Watlington.jpg)

'Passengers in the south'  ??? The Echo are brilliant at printing SWT press releases verbatim, this time without even noticing that this is all about London area inner suburban trains.  As they probably won't have a clue what a 455 even looks like, that'll explain why they used a 170 to illustrate the story...

Paul 

Even the BBC have been somewhat geographically challenged. A news item about the Class 455 upgrade made it onto the BBC Somerset page! Somerset? A diesel stronghold where no National Rail station has never seen a train running off that devil's work leccy stuff.  :P

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22166526

The same item has appeared on the BBC pages for Wiltshire, Dorset and Surrey. Only for that last one is it relevant.

Wonder whether they going to fit loos in the refurbishment?

It isn't mentioned anyway, but why would they bother, given the routes they work?

Paul

This isn't actually a refurbishment anyway, the only work will be to upgrade the traction package. They are undergoing a separate, minor, refurbishment currently which includes a repaint, modifications to interior door handles and fitting of exterior door hustle sounders. That work will make the fleet compliant with the DDA requirements. I don't think no toilets is too much of a problem considering the services they work, and as any toilet fitted would have to be a disabled one you'd lose huge numbers of seats to fit it.

I caught a 150 yesterday from MDN (I took care to note the number on the front for you experts) .  The toilet was immaculate and I was careful to leave it the same after I left it (well done FGW cleaners btw).  My point is that if you are on a service that is once every two hours, to be taken short and miss the next service is OK when there is a frequent service (min half hourly I suggest) but not on one so sparse.  The other factor is whether the joining station has toilets anyway.  Given the 'open' nature of modern units, would a passenger be aware on joining a 455 train that there were no such facilities?  In the old days of the GWR B set, you knew there were no toilets before you got on.

I think many passengers would be aware of the 455s having no toilets.

Many trains operating in the London area have no toilets - none on 313, 315, 376, 378, 455, 456 units, nor any toilets on Underground trains, nor the DLR or Croydon Tramlink. Passengers will be aware that toilets may not always be available.

In the case of SWT and the 455s - these are painted in their own colour scheme from the rest of the fleet, plus SWT really make an effort to keep 455s on the same routes day in day out - sure this doesn't always happen, but these are very rare occasions. The other factor, is that SWT diagram 455s on routes that usually have an end to end journey time of around an hour - not long distance journies.

Not ideal lacking toilets when they turn up on Reading services though.

A not too infrequent occurrence at the moment while the Class 458s are away getting stretched.

It's not that they are away getting lengthened yet, I believe that a lot of the fleet required tyre turning.

That's right, SWT mentioned it in the webchat a few weeks back.  Apparently, as mentioned in wnxx, some sort of track defect damaged many of the 458's wheel sets.  AIUI none of the 458s will be 'stretched' until the first four (or maybe even six) completed units made from the 460s are in service.

Pity those who don't then.   ::)   ;D

 - always assuming they weren't trainspotters who knew what the numbers on the front meant.
 - or were blind
 -

BNM has reminded me about the journey length, which is extra to the points I made.  I reckon 40 mins should be the determining factor.  Otherwise the guard should warn pax before departure.  Any advance on 40 mins? 

An hour.

And if the station isn't ever served by trains *with* toilets, never. Not required, if no one expects them.

You don't need to know the numbers on the front though. These trains are used on the same routes day in day out. In London there isn't an expectation of a toilet on a train, just like there is no expectation of 1st Class or a buffet car on suburban services. Whilst I feel sorry for anyone caught short, I think the majority of users in the London area will be aware of the lack of facilities.

And as I've said again, these trains are used on routes that are usually no more than an hour in length.

Another example of the the problems of the disconenct between the wheel and the track. In the old days the relevant Mechanical and Civil Engineers involved would be on the carpet in front of the general manager to sort it out. Nowadays it's buck passing to avoid penalties. I believe it's called market forces.

Doesn't work.

SWT is the closest to vertical integration on the network nowadays having been in a deep alliance with Network Rail for a while now. Tim Shoveller is not MD of SWT but MD of the SWT-NR alliance.

As someone who has first-hand knowledge of the situation under discussion, I'm afraid that your comment is ill-informed nonsense.

Both SWT and NR worked very hard together in attempting to find the source of the problem, including running special empty stock trains through locations where the problem was thought to be. It took some time to identify it, but it was located and resolved. It's not in SWT's interest to have a piece of track chewing up train wheels, nor is it in NR's interest to keep having to foot the bill for repairs. Both parties had a strong interest in getting things sorted, and indeed they have been. I doubt BR could have done it any quicker. Oddly enough getting people "on the carpet" for a dressing down doesn't actually solve any problems. Getting out there and working together does.


No plans to do so. As has already been extensively discussed above, the trains are used on short routes for which toilets aren't really required (and indeed fitting them would need extensive alterations to the trains, given that retention tanks would be required). BR specified the trains in the 1980s without toilets and their use hasn't changed significantly since then, so that's a good 20 - 30 years that the travelling public has had to get used to the idea that suburban services operated using SWT's red trains don't have lavs on board.

I don't find it odd at all. It's common sense really. On so many occasions the public's cry for someone to blame gets in the way of solutions.  That is why we now have the RAIB.

Surprisingly I am in agreement r.e the Karzi issue. Suburban stock doesn't really need them providing that availability at stations is not a problem.

I think stock running services such as Bristol - Weymouth or Bristol - Salisbury should definitely have a toilet or two onboard. A lot of the intermediate stations lack facilities at all (Bradford-on-Avon, Keynsham) to name a couple. Or they are only open when the station is staffed (Trowbridge, Warminster etc)

I think it's more of a problem on London Underground services. I'm very careful in what I say about staff but it sometimes makes me think that LU Staff clearly have never heard of the concept of a toilet, as they don't like letting you out of the barrier to use one. I've had alsorts of comments thrown at me by staff including the suggestion of going before starting the journey (Which I would've done anyway)

I think it's about the four P's... (No pun intended ;D ) if you know the method of transport is not going to have a toilet, then plan accordingly.

Without trying to hijack the thread, Considering my medical condition which on any day will see approximately double figure toilet visits. You learn to plan for the worst case scenario. I manage ok 90% of the time. However I really do get annoyed when staff make things as awkward as possible; like suggest buying a new ticket if you go out of the gateline.

The availability of public facilities should also be addressed. Closing toilets is only going to encourage people to urinate in the street. Spend a Friday or Saturday night in Bristol or Bath (The latter having only 1 central 24 hour free facility - 1 on the outskirts which is 10p a use) and you'll see exactly what I mean :-X

Why can't those iut on the raz just pop back on the pub they had their last drink in, or even any other? Thats what I do....

Licensing laws... No re-entry after 01:30 or there abouts AIUI. To be fair, Bristol City Council do put temporary urinals out in and around the waterfront. However they take the term 'Public' to a whole new level! :o

I agree IB, likewise my work in projects involves many discussions involving our contractors, the Routes and their partners in the TOC's and FOC's to reach a mutually acceptable access to the infrastructure I want to take to pieces and then put back together.  We will put together a risk pack sometimes its a bit dooms day i.e. worst case, when things go wrong, as they endurably will do, there is nothing to gain in finger pointing and blaming each other as that destroys working relationships better accept where you have got in wrong, learn from it and move on.   It our project office anyone walking in cannot tell which are NR staff and which are from the contractors and indeed which contractor, very collaborative.

So if there are no toilets on Class 455s, then what was it that I used when I did a...

Actually, forget I mentioned it. And avoid carriage F.

Hmm. Not the first and unlikely to be the last! I'll leave it at that...

Most kind!

I couldn't possibly comment... :P

I noticed on twitter the other day someone on a 24 min journey saying 'good luck to the guard that finds the open bottle'