Great Western Coffee Shop

05:43 to London Paddington from Bath Spa this morning (Southend Victoria is destination). 1ST Advance booked for collection from Bath Spa.

Last week my Bank issued me with a replacement card after I reported that the card was defective (It disintegrated). I need to stress that I asked for a Replacement and NOT a Lost/Stolen Re-Issue.

The new card arrived with me on Friday Evening so signed the back and popped it into my wallet. Sorted.

Get to the railway station this morning to collect the ticket, Put card in. TVM States: Please insert card used for payment (Or a message to that effect).

I examined the card and realised that the bank have clearly cocked it up as the last 2 digits on the card are different along with the CVC code on the back. My Credit Card was also replaced earlier this year and that was with the same number and CVC (Albeit different start date which hasn't affected anything... yet!)

So. With the ticket office not open early enough for the 05:43 Train to Paddington. thetrout has boarded the train without collecting said ticket, but does have the booking confirmation in the FGW app on my iPhone.

Am I a likely sitting duck here?

You've probably encountered the Train Manager by the time you read this and my guess was all went reasonably well with you being able to sort things out when you get to Paddington.

Service was a late start from Bristol "owing to waiting for a member of train crew".  They were probably drawing lots in the mess room to see who would have to deal with the trout!   ;D ;D

In such circumstances, I would always approach the Train Manager before boarding. Yes, there's a chance you'll be told you can't travel, but the majority of staff would be understanding if you explain the problem clearly.

Sitting and waiting for the TM to come to you may not endear yourself to him/her. More so if you are sitting in 1st Class without a valid ticket.

Thanks for the replies all. Didn't actually get ticket checked until around Slough. TM was very good after I explained the situation and showed him the booking on my iPhone. As I was travelling to Southend he said to collect the ticket at Paddington as he wouldn't have been able to issue anything as he didn't have a machine.

The train was indeed slightly late. I wonder if the reason is as bobm said. As the TM was still in bed when the train should've left Bristol at 5:30... Clearly couldn't face a potential trouting!! :P Picked up a minor delay at Reading too as BTP were summoned to eject a passenger from the train (not me... honest ;D )

BNM ideally yes that would've been the best course of action but as the train was running late I decided to 'chance it'. The lady in the Buffet recognised me also and served me compo's without suspicion ;)

However you're comment "Could be refused travel" worries me slightly. As this was an AP ticket, presumably I would have to purchase another ticket? Who would be classed as at fault.

1) The railway for no open ticket office and TVM refusing the card for the same Bank Account, just a replacement issued card (albeit a complete hash of it)

2) Me for not insuring I had a working card prior to travel; but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of the card becoming defective shortly before travel.

3) Both to blame for various reasons and/or the Bank.

In relation to that I assume it will be the same problem for someone who purchases a ticket online and the card expires before it is collected...?

TT

Your responsibility to ensure a valid way of collection exists to pick up your card.

WAs the ticket office meant to be open atthat time? your responsibility to find out, and collect when it is open. etc etc

National Rail says it opens at 6am on a Saturday, so no, it wasn't meant to be open.

So you are required to know this & make arrangements to collect them, as you knew your card was knackered. You are fully responsible for your tickets, and collection thereof.

I don't think cards are 'replaced' as an exact copy any longer? they are always issued as a security measure with either a new number, different expiry or both. So any change of card would necessitate a visit to a ticket office. In these circumstances, any FGW ticket office would do, just as though you could attend any (FGW) ticket office with TVM facilities to collect your pre-booked tickets.

I believe (but need it checked) that a call into FGW ticketing services in advance of travel can getthe booking amended in thesecases to allow collection with any valid bank card issued to you - just as business bookings are...

We have a Customer Panel coming up - I'll see if I can get definitive answers, and suggest an FAQ be put on their website.

Can you confirm that the card was knackered after you bought them? And secondly, how far in advance did you book them?

Easy to be wise after the event - but when a card is replaced for damage, rather than being lost or stolen, there is an overlap when both the old and new cards are valid to allow for the time it takes the new one to come through the post.  Therefore if the old card was not sufficiently damaged that it would not have physically fitted in the slot or be unreadable by the machine, it would have worked.

If the card was still insertable-in-the-slot, but otherwise replaced for damage, like a crack in the plastic, it would actually work the TVM for collecting until its expiry date. I don't think the machine calls 'home' to check its validity, just reads data off the chip/strip.

I think this depends on the reason for the replacement. For example today I went into the local Santander branch to request a new debit card because the top right corner got caught in the car door and although it works fine the ATMs don't recognise it as a valid card. When I have had requested a new card before for similar reasons the long number and the PIN have remained the same but the CVV and start/expiry dates change. The new card would be only be valid after I used it first.

If however the card had been scammed (and this has happened to me before) I would expect a new card with new long number and the wors

Dave

Don't know if the procedure is set down by Visa/Mastercard or individual banks. For example debit card replacement at Barclays will always result in the last 2 or 3 digits changing no matter what the reason for replacement.

However their credit cards retain the same number if replaced for damage or expiry.

I think generally with Credit Cards, as the card number is the actual account number of the account, then they only change for Lost/Stolen purposes.

Thanks for the replies Gents ;) :)

In answer to your questions:

• Can you confirm that the card was knackered after you bought them? And secondly, how far in advance did you book them?

Yes. Card died after booking the tickets. Tickets were booked on the 5th April for Travel on 13th. Card Died on the 6th (Saturday) and I ordered a replacement in Bristol the same day (Bank was open till 16:00). Bank told me the replacement card would be with me on Tuesday and that my old one would continue working until I started using the new one, was also told the only different details would be the valid from and to dates. Didn't get the replacement card till 22:00 on Friday as post doesn't come to my house until lunchtime by which time I had left for the morning >:(

I think I was being rather naive to be honest. Also lulled into a false sense of security as I had my HSBC MasterCard replaced a few weeks back after it kept being declined. When the new one arrived the only number that was different was the valid from. CVV, 16 Digits and Valid To date remained the same.

To be honest the fact that the machine rejected my card completely caught me by surprise. I was under the impression, same bank account but replaced card, it'll be fine... Errr no. It wasn't!


Last 2 digits where different >:(


That's correct :)


Trust me... This one wouldn't have done ;) :-X :-\

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Can I throw a further spanner in the works...? I don't particularly like 'What Ifs' - However, what if I had my card lost/stolen on the Friday late Evening before travel on the Saturday Morning... (And yes, annoyingly, I have once been in that situation; however the ticket office was open ;) )

I suspect you would have to have bought fresh tickets on the Saturday & claimed a refund on the originals.

T&Cs very clear that it is your responsibility to  collect your tickets in advance of travel. A knackered card is hardly any fault etc of a third-party company, is it?

When I was tavelling about a month ago the TVM  was out of service at my local station and the ticket office was not  yet open. There was no TM on the service so my first opportunity was to buy a ticket at the excess fare office at Reading. For some reason the card reader would not read the chip on my company credit card (not card declined, just didn't like the chip for some reason). I was escorted "part" of the way to the ticket sales counters where I inserted my card and it worked first time. It also worked in the ATM - I only did this test for my own piece of mind.

Although the T&Cs are black and white life isn't

While it is true that a broken card is not the fault of the 3rd party company. As the 3rd party company requires the card as part of their process they need to have a clearly defined process for what to do if said card is lost or broken. That information should be on the TVM and/or the booking confirmation and having checked my most recent booking it is:.

It states "To collect your tickets, you must have both the credit/debit card used to purchase the tickets and your ticket booking reference. If you do not have them, a new ticket at the full fare will have to be bought to travel. If your payment card has been replaced since you made your booking, please contact Web Support on 0844 556 5605 before starting your journey."

It also states "Please note that if you are starting your journey at an unmanned station without a self service ticket machine, and have selected to collect your tickets from an alternative station, you must collect your tickets before you travel. You are not permitted to travel to that station using the booking reference or confirmation email for this booking to collect your tickets."

As an aside why do you need both a card and the ticket booking reference? Looking at the randomness of the reference number I would have thought that would be sufficent security. Of course it may not be truly randomjavascript:void(0);

Hacked emails....

... or, rather more probably, for your own peace of mind.  ;D

Does BB get an issue of this CfN?? ;D

(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/fighting/dope-slap.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/whack-emoticon-557.html)

Definitely !

"Please note that if you are starting your journey at an unmanned station without a self service ticket machine . . ." This condition needs to be qualified to add "with ticket collection facilities."
At Hanborough the TVM does not have this facility and local rail users are often unaware of this having purchased a ticket over the internet. Contrast Charlbury however where the TVM does have a ticket collection facility. Both machines were installed at about the same time but no one at FGW has been able to tell me why the Hanborough machine cannot do what the Charlbury machine does.

Does Hanborough appear in the drop-down list of stations when you specify where you want to collect it? There used to be a warning displayed that there was no collection facilities at the chosen station & that you needed to arrange to collect elsewhere in advance of travelling if this was indeed the case.

Aren't Advance Tickets non refundable however? Not to mention an FOS from Bath Spa - Southend Stations is priced in the hundreds. That seems very, very biased to the rail operator there doesn't it?


I may be splitting hairs here. But I disagree in some cases; A third party company for example could be another Banks ATM which could have accidentally knackered the card? Maybe eat the thing causing you to lose possession?

A Third Party might be a drunk person in the pub the day before travel who knocked into you, causing you to drop the card and damaging the chip in the process? (Reasonably close to what happened. However admittedly I fell over my own feet, ar$e over t1t down three stairs whilst holding the card about to pay the bill in a restaurant which then snapped the bluddy thing in half! )

I think we may have to agree to disagree ChrisB. As BerkshireBugsy pointed out and to be honest I am in 100% agreement. Rules and procedures are very black and white; often in the case of the railways IMHO it seems to be biased towards the train operator. But life is anything but black and white.

Whilst I don't wish to go off topic too much. I have noticed over the years that the more and more you research into things such as Law, Rules & Regulations and/or various other procedures in the 'workplace' The more and more you realise how much you break these on a daily basis; because they are so daft or completely remove all elements of common sense.

In this case, I had the reference number, I had the details of the purchased ticket on my iPhone app and finally the Seat Reservation card with my Surname printed on it.

It did not occur to me that I would have problems collecting my tickets with just a replacement card. As I said, I was being naive because my MasterCard was replaced earlier this year which provided the same details with a different start from date.

Had the TM tried to sell me an FOS I would've asked for a UFN or MG11 as appropriate and then disputed it directly with FGW at a later date; citing the majority of the reasons and explanations above. Also making it clear in a letter that at no point was I defrauding the railway as I had already paid the sum due for travel but was unable to collect the tickets. Making sure to emphasis the point that the railway suffered no financial loss as (again) the fare had been paid prior to travel, but was unable to prove this at the exact time.

The TM Showed excellent discretion after I explained the situation and showed him the booking. But being completely honest here. I wasn't asked for a ticket until after Reading (Possibly around Slough IIRC) and even then that was only after I was 'spotted' heading back to my seat from the Buffet.

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I'll just throw into this as an extra here. Some websites show Frome as an available ToD Collection Location (The TVM Has the little green button on the screen allowing you to collect tickets; I does work too as I have collected tickets before having just got off 2C36 at 00:19 ;) )

However, not every website does list Frome as a ToD Station... Is that the same case here perhaps?

Here are 2 screenshots, The first from FGW showing FRO as a ToD, the second from Southern which does not have FRO in the list. Not only that, Southern have the First Advance for the same Date and Train Time at a different price than that of FGW... ::) :o :-X

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/923339_4907696486182_617924215_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/539766_4907696566184_1997223827_n.jpg)

I guess we're talking legality as opposed to sensible discretion....

The T&Cs require you to be in charge of a fully-working bank card in order to collect your tickets. You agree to these on purchase of TOD tickets. It is not the fault of the TOC that subsequently your card is knackered & your replacement is mis-issued by your bank.

So legally, the TOC can require you to re-purchase as you are unable to adhere to their T&Cs. You I suspect would be looking for recompense through your bank for not following your instructions in the reissue of your card.

All very cumbersome, but strictly legally, that would be the route.

But of course, they can tell that you have purchased a ticket, and are just unable to collect it through no fault of yours or theirs. So it'd be sensible to allow you to collect at the next available opportunity. Called Good Customer Service,. so long as you are carrying the proof(s) of purchase & Collection.

Asking for a UFN in this instance I would agree with, and argue cancellation afterwards.

Lastly, you're comparing two different fares - the first is to U! on the underground, the second is to London Terminals.

Trout reminds me of my best man, he was always having these 'incidents'.  I am so sorry to hear about them.  I had one appalling experience using these machines (described here elsewhere sometime back), where there was a huge queue of folk who clearly were new to using the machine, and eventually my train was due to arrive at the platform.  The service it connected with at Exeter was the only one that would have been useful (the tourist Sunday special Exeter to Okehampton) and I am afraid I blustered and equally luckily, they were not after that same train.  Phew!  It was my first time of using the thing and my last, I suspect.

all FGW TVMs are capable of processing TOD, however, this function is switched off at unstaffed stations. The reason being that DfT guidelines require a back-up system (a STAR terminal) be in place in case of TVM failure. So unstaffed locations do not offer TOD. of course this doesn't really make sense, as TVMs at staffed stations continue to offer TOD after the staff go home, at which point they become exactly the same as unstaffed stations! but regardless, that's the reason why.

Nailsea and Backwell is an exception to this rule as the TOD function was switched on by accident and by the time anyone noticed regular customers were used to using the facility, so it was decided to leave it in place.

A check of a few random SWT managed stations (without ticket offices, e.g. my local station at Botley) shows they still offer ToD from their TVMs.  Are you sure this is a DfT guideline, or an FGW specific decision?

Paul

Ahem!  :o

Actually, I think you'll find they did that at my personal request.  :-X

Chris from Nailsea.  ;D

The different price is probably because by putting the ticket in your basket on the FGW site it has been reserved for you for a period of time. If it was the last left at that price level any other website would then offer the next ticket in the next price range, as the lower one is reserved for on the FGW site for you.

At last some sort of explanation as to why tickets can be collected at Charlbury but not at Hanborough TVMs (see the Void's posting). Charlbury is staffed until just after midday but Hanborough is unstaffed all day. However after midday, the situation at Charlbury is the same as Hanborough, i.e. unstaffed and so the railway logic breaks down then. Unfortunately when I have enquired from FGW staff no-one has been able to tell me this reason.
I have since checked and tickets purchased over the internet for travel from Hanborough are marked as not available. However advance tickets are not available to purchase from Hanborough but are from Oxford, so some locals have discovered this and buy a ^4.00 advance single over the net from Oxford to London for use on a train also stopping at Hanborough and then buy their HND/OXF ticket at the Hanborough station TVM. All quite legal so I undertand and this probably explains why they have not been able to collect their ticket to London from the Hanborough TVM.

You have made the mistake that a lot of other people make: in this situation you need to ask yourself one simple question.

"Was it the railway's fault that I couldn't collect my tickets?"

No, it wasn't. Move along, nothing to see here. Unfortunately that means it's your responsibility to sort the situation out. The fact that it wasn't your fault directly is unfortunate, but it's an issue between you and your bank that has nothing to do with the railway. You may potentially be able to claim back any money that you ended up out of pocket from your bank, but this is another one of those occasions where I'm afraid on a strict interpretation of the rules the railway owes you nothing. The fact that you may not have been personally at fault is immaterial.

It's very similar to the situation of "I got stuck in traffic" or "I had to take a two-hourly bus service that leaves a very tight connection so I chanced it rather than wait an two hours for my train" as reasons for missing your departure on an Advance ticket. The reason for missing your train may well not be your fault directly, but it most certainly isn't the railway's. If you book an Advance ticket, you accept the terms and conditions that apply, If you don't think they're fair, or are skewed in favour of the train company, it's your prerogative to book a different product or make alternative arrangements.

Harsh, but true. 

I'm completely in agreement. Elsewhere there's been some discussion that to make the conditions fairer, they should be altered so that if any form of connecting public transport (bus, plane) has delayed your journey to the station then you should be allowed to travel on a later service without penalty. However, to my mind the conditions are restrictive, but fair, and you have a choice when booking.




Edit note: Quote mark fixed, for clarity. CfN.

I agree the only thing unfair about advance tickets is that if you do miss your train for other than the railway's fault you are not credited with the price of the ticket you have when buying another one. 

Well said Ellendune, a great proposal, and I won't go on about unnecessary advance ticket restrictions again   ;D

- on the other hand,  ;D  do these companies actually want to attract repeat business or are they just trying to put pax off so that there are fewer complaints about rammed services?

Let's take your point on board.  Pax book advance tickets and then someone falls ill (name your own non-railway event).  They still turn up for another service so are about to give the TOC even more profitable trade than was earlier the case.  If they never turn up the TOC has the money without the trouble of transporting them.

So why annoy them so that they harbour a nasty feeling towards the TOC thereafter?

OK, now let's hear it from the people with the doubtless myriad counter-arguments.  I hope Managers are following this.

In the case of illness or a change of travel plans, there is provision to change an Advance ticket before travelling (as long as this process is started before the first train is due to depart). The passenger will need to pay:

a) an administration fee (which I believe is GBP10.00 although I have never gone through this process);
b) the difference between the fare already paid and the cheapest fare (Advance or, if not available, walk-up) available to travel on your "revised" train at the time you make the change request.

This allows you to make changes to travel plans, but also provides something of a disincentive to do so unless it's absolutely necessary: in my opinion it strikes just about the right balance. If Advance tickets were changeable/refundable without penalty, there would be significant abuse of the system with people jumping in to secure the cheapest deals on the offchance that they might use the ticket, secure in the knowledge that they could simply claim a refund or make changes to their arrangements if they chose not to use the cheap deal they had secured.

The admin fee means that there will be some cases where it is cheaper simply to ditch the original ticket and start again, but in the majority of cases the passenger will not forfeit the entire value of an Advance ticket should they need to change plans before the day of travel. However, attempting to board a later train after missing the one you were booked on and then make these changes on-board is an absolute non-starter: if you have missed your first train through no fault of the railway then the ticket has no refund or exchange value and you need to start again.

Perhaps a simplistic view but the few times I have lost money through the non-use of an advance ticket I think is more than offset by the overall savings I have made through buying tickets ahead of time.

Yep, agree with those right above.

Its an offer being made. If you choose to accept & purchase, the T&Cs are clear. If you missed a flight, you'd get nothing either

Just to make it clear, i am only referring to 'missed train' situations so ED's suggestion of partial refund seems highly commendable.  It would only be valid 'same day' (choose a period if fairer).

I understand the other objections.

Travel insurance is available to cover many, if not most, 'missed departure' scenarios. Some online ticket sellers offer it for just a couple of pounds on top of the cost of the fare.

Your own travel insurance policy may cover you as well. Or, if you regularly use Advance Purchase tickets and suffer 'unforeseen circumstances' it may be worth finding a policy that'll cover you.

It is not the railways' job to bend over backwards to accommodate you if you miss your departure and they are not at fault. The terms and conditions of Advance Purchase fares are clear. If you don't like the product, don't buy it.

At the risk of sounding hard I'm totally with you on this BNM. I have seen airport docusoaps where passengers complain that the are not allowed to board a service because they are "only a few minutes late". If your journey to the airport is by road or train then - and here comes the surprise - allow plenty of extra time....delays can happen.

I bought a ticket on Southerns website last night for travel today. Collecting the ticket from a machine at a Southern Station I was surprised when it printed my tickets after inserting my card but without asking for the reference number. This has not happened to me before. I usually use FGW or SWT online and collect at an SWT station. I note that Southerns machines are not the same as the ones FGW and SWT use so the firmware and software may well be different.

If you book & collect with/from the same TOC, it will usually offer you the tickets by simply inserting the payment card. Cross TOC bookings / collections don't tend to do this. If you book tickets with more than one reference, it asks initially for the first reference, but again, colldection of tickets on the other reference simply needs the payment card.

I thought this was general knowledge, hence not posting it till now

I have not been asked for the reference on occasions in the past when collecting tickets bought via the FGW site from a FGW machine but more recently this no longer seems to be the case.

I guess an individual TOC can turn this facility off if they choose...

I believe it was the older TVMs installed at many of the HSS stations that didn't ask for a reference number, it's the newer TVMs that are installed most places now now that ask for them.