Great Western Coffee Shop

....just a quick one as I'm not sure if I was given a bum steer or not....was booked in First class on the 0948 from Plymouth to Reading this morning - got to Plymouth station to find it was cancelled... >:( .....don't worry says matey on gateline, jump on the 0925 Crosscountry service and change at Exeter or Bristol, its been agreed that FGW passengers can use that service (as it would have been another hour for the next FGW to Reading)

So on I get and sit in 1st class (with my Advance ticket marked "FGW ONLY" which Gateline chap saw).

About 10 mins later we're underway and Crosscountry chap appears to check my ticket - "sorry, can't sit in First class with that one, you'll have to buy a new ticket or sit in 2nd class" - apparently as CC were doing FGW a "favour" this is the rule........is this the case or was I sold a pup?

In actual fact I ended up getting off at Exeter St Davids and changing as the "cancelled" FGW 0948 was eventually started from Exeter - I'm sort of grateful for CC transporting me that far but was the guy right about the 1st class ticket?

If CrossCountry have agreed to accept FGW's passengers then they should accept the class of travel those passengers are travelling in. That's my personal opinion. I don't know of any official published policy beyond the "CrossCountry will accept FGW passengers between x and y." type announcements.

I'd be writing to both FGW and CrossCountry asking whether what you were told is official policy. I'd also be asking FGW for passenger charter compensation as 1st Class accommodation wasn't available for part of your journey. You held a reservation for a 1st Class seat and one was not provided for part of the journey.

I also suspect that if the boot was on the other foot FGW wouldn't have been so petty. Perhaps the CrossCountry TM was just after some extra commission.

That's a very interesting question: like BNM I had always assumed that tickets would be honoured in the class of travel for which they were valid, although I've had a quick look through the fares manual and there's no guidance on the issue that I can see. As a passenger I'd certainly have done exactly the same as you and installed myself in first class.

It does seem unduly churlish of XC not to honour the ticket in first class; given that they were prepared to accept standard class pax with "FGW only" tickets in standard, it seems odd that you were booted out of first.

I'd echo the previous comment: write to both FGW and XC explaining the situation and asking for their take on it. Keep it brief and factual and see what you get back. And if you do, please let us know what the result is, because I'd be intrigued to know.

Was XC first class fully booked? This is the only reason I can think of not allowing FGW passengers in, unless there were large numbers of FGW first class holders and XC decided it was in best interest not to allow any of FGW passengers in, if they were aware XC + FGW first class holders were more than XC first class capacity.

The fact that the TM was willing to sting the OP for a 1st Class fare rather suggests that it wasn't fully booked with XC passengers.

FC is unlikely to have been so busy between Plymouth and Exeter that it couldn't also carry the FGW passengers. And of course any passengers with walk-up FC tickets who intended to catch the 0948 would have been free to travel in FC on the XC service.

I'm tempted to say bum steer. CrossCountry have been known to have rather draconian measures when carrying passengers on behalf of other TOC's.

I don't know what was said, but I might have argued my case or perhaps asked the TM to write me up (Unpaid Fares Notice). If ticket acceptance is in place, then irrespective of which TOC was at fault, if the ticket says First Class, then that should be honored. (Should being the operative word). Any layman would also state that if they have First Class written on their ticket, surely that should mean First Class.

However I strongly suspect if you had a FOS between PLY and EXD that the issue would never have come to fruition whether you had a seat reservation for an FGW or not (Which Southern Stag rightly pointed out)

Do please write to both FGW and XC Taplow Green and let us know how you get on as I too would be interested to know. I've experienced XC during ticket acceptance situations and they can be very draconian on the matter. So it's disappointing to see that something as simple as this can become an issue.

I've also had the flip side of that, when I've paid ^20 odd (some cases more) for a First Class ticket and XC have been only too happy to declassify First Class mid journey and it's a case of like it or lump it :-\ :-X >:(


Can I play Devils Advocate and suggest that perhaps it would have been a nice commission?

I have been refused admission to cross country first class even with a full fare first open ticket ! that is meant to be valid on any train.

IIRC it was during engineering work, and a bus service was innvolved. The intended journey was a FGW train, a bus and then another FGW train.
Owing to insuficient space on the bus, I missed the connecting FGW train and had to use a cross country service. They would not let me use first class despite having a first open ticket.
Other passengers with tickets valid only on the booked train were "fined" substantial sums for not being on the correct train.

Cross country are IMO the second worst TOC of any that I use regulary, FCC being the worst.

(I may have mentioned this previously in a disscusion about the hazards of replacement bus services)

I knew someone on this forum had that problem, just wasn't sure who it was so couldn't reference it...

I didn't post this on the forum for reasons that may be obvious.

But I personally have been ejected from an XC service after being told I needed to buy a new ticket despite my perfectly valid ticket being just that, VALID! (Disruption caused me to use XC otherwise would've willingly used FGW). Even other passengers were stunned by what was going on. No reasoning with the TM I was demanded to pay for an FDS to the next station (Despite my ticket covering me for that as well). I showed my disabled railcard and the TM point blank refused to honor the discount because (GET THIS) "I should've bought a valid ticket before boarding the train" It was at that point when a lady sat opposite me blew a fuse for my defense and said the TM was out of order. I had no intention of paying up when I was told my RC wouldn't be honored. Why I even contemplated paying before that anyway I know not.

Anyway the TM went off in a huff to call the RPI/BTP Squad on my backside and in the process of their temper stomp walk, trod on a Guide Dogs paw... I'll end there... But needless to say that carriage became an instant vocal war zone... (Understatement!) XC got a few nasty letters from that little incident and I personally haven't seen said staff member since.

Is there an Independent Democratic Republic of XC that means, like North Korea, it recognises nothing outside itself? 


Edited to correct appalling grammar

.........just to keep you updated, I had a reply from FGW within 48 hours apologising and offering rail vouchers, still no word from XC!

Well done FGW!

From my experience XC are very slow at responding to communications with customer services. I recently got delayed by 45 minutes on one of their services and the TM (who had been very informative during the delay period) announced the delay /repay scheme . I duly emailed all the information off to XC in the manner defined on their web site and 2 weeks later got a reply which couldn't have been more impersonal if they had tried. I am still waiting for a "proper" reply 3 weeks after the delayed journey.

So don't hold your breath.

.....finally got a reply from XC yesterday, pretty garbled about "we weren't aware that we were accepting FGW passengers on that service" -  despite me pointing out that it was because the 0948 FGW to Paddington was cancelled - and they are "continuing to investigate".......great!

I have already sent my tickets back to FGW and am awaiting the refund they promised me so will leave XC to swing in the breeze I reckon

I've been asked on occasion at Newcastle if I'd take passengers from a cancelled EC service. If it was just one cancelled train then it may not have warranted full ticket acceptance and would be purely at the discretion of the Train Manager if they were willing to accept GW passengers.

I recall an occasion a little while ago when there was major disruption on the ECML between York and Newcastle on a Saturday, Cross Country refused to assist ny accepting EC tickets due, as they stated, their trains were rammed so would not be able to accomodate additional passengers.

Well.....I've had a full reply from FGW enclosing rail vouchers equivalent to the fare for the entire journey - very generous bearing in mind that the only real hardship was a lack of 1st class accommodation between Plymouth and Exeter!

An excellent result there TaplowGreen!

Poor form from XC that they are 'continuing to investigate....'

Sit tight and hold your ground, if you were told at Plymouth to do this then you can take that at face value. Get the TM full name, depot and no and make it clear you will be writing in, if push comes to shove insist they call the BT Police.

These names may be useful if you want to try an approach from the top down. I also had reason to do the same with North Somerset Council when my first email was not responded to in 10 days. An email to the chief exec got the matter sorted in a couple of hours.




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Having trouble with Cross Country Customer Services ? Go to the top!

^ on: January 24, 2013, 01:57:22 PM ^
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An email to the Cross Country Customer Service Director (jhiggins@crosscountrytrains.co.uk) after not having had a reply for 2 months after being promised a full reply within 10 days. I guessed the email address, and had this response within 24 hours!

I hope someone else finds this information useful.



Jeremy Higgins thanks you for your email and he has asked me to investigate and respond on his behalf.
 
Please accept my sincere apologies for the delay in responding to you.  It is true to say that due to the severe weather conditions our postbag has been unusually high and our response times have fallen behind what we normally achieve. 
 
I can confirm that a letter with your travel vouchers will be sent from our department today.
 
Once again I am sorry for the delay in responding.
 
Kind regards
 
Pamela Johnson
Customer Relations Duty Manager
CrossCountry

The TM does not need to give full name or depot. He/she is an agent for Crosscountry, or indeed this equally applies to ANY Train Operating Company. He/she does however have to give you their first name and of course, you should take note of the service you are on. Contacting Crosscountry directly if need be.

There are occasions when Great Western advise customers to use other Companies services....but fail to ASK the other rail company making Advance tickets invalid if Great Western Only.

It is also worth pointing out that 2 and a half 1st Class carriages will NOT fit into 24 seats on a Voyager!

If there are more than 24 1st class tickets from FGW AND the train manager knows he has lots of XC 1st class passengers traveling a long way who are/will get on he/she may have a point. Exeter to Edinburgh is more than twice as long a journey as Exeter to London.

I am not saying that is right, but it is a point worth making when the XC customers would otherwise be entitled to a refund and I suspect FGW would not pay for that!?

Just playing Devils advocate here!

As far as it concerns the customer this is irrelevant. An instruction has been given to a passenger to use alternative services. The passenger is then following the direction of member of railway staff, and is covered contractually by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. They should not then be inconvenienced because of a breakdown in communication between TOCs. That is a matter for the companies to resolve without impacting in any way on the passenger.

ATOC's National Rail brand strapline: Britain's train companies working together.

I agree fully with bignosemac on this one. If I was travelling as a layman passenger, If an 'Authorised Person' were to tell me to board a particular service, then I would sit in the class of accommodation stated on my ticket.

An 'Authorised Person' has given me permission to use train Y instead of X and I would surely then be covered by the NRCoC? This could be extended to the ruling on Authorised Persons given permission to use First Class with Standard Class Tickets.

If a TM then stated that I could not sit in First Class due to discrepancy between companies. Then I'm sorry but that is not my problem, concern or anything to do with me. If the 'Authorised Persons' cannot do the job properly when I have paid for a service and entered into a contract with the Railway for the purpose of Travel, I couldn't care less whether it meant that someone wasn't going to get a seat between Plymouth and Exeter. I would be running late by that point already. If I was occupying a reserved seat then that's fair enough, again if all seats were reserved in First Class then fair enough. However if another Pax boarded at Totnes and couldn't get a seat, TOUGH! You don't pay for a seat with a ticket, merely the right to travel by train or alternative means at the TOC's discretion.

Sorry to put it so bluntly. But that's the rules. I wonder how this would have been dealt with in the days of British Rail and ICGW and ICXC...?? I thought as much?

Just goes to show the major flaws in Privatisation. Also I think that ATOC strapline is laughable and very economic with the truth in quite a few cases!

ICGW = (InterCity Greater Western)
ICXC = (InterCity Cross Country)

In the meantime, lest we forget our manners, may I offer a warm welcome to our new member 'cogload' - and thanks for posting your suggested course of action!  :)

I'm also interested to note:


Is that actually the case?  :o

Staff have to wear name badges, however I'm led to believe that they may choose any name they wish. Data protection or something along those lines!

I think it's more along the lines that their work name doesn't have to match their home name - in case they feel they may be stalked / subject to abuse if (for example) they enforce rules in a way which upsets passengers.   Or equally - if they're helpful and have an unusual name, they may find themselves getting questions sent to their homes.  I can understand the desire to be - fully - off duty in some roles.

Interesting comment there. That's just made me think of a certain member of staff, who I've seen at a station I sharn't name wearing at least three different name badges in the past... They also happen to be an RPI ;)

Yes indeed everyone. ATOC's position is clear and that position is correct. The XC Guard should contact their customer service number to check out this position. I am sure mostly that this will clear things up. If however the delay is a cancellation of TOC's (Train Operating Company) service AND the Ticket is TOC specific it is the responsibility of THAT TOC to get the passenger to their destination! I said at the end of my post I was playing 'Devils Advocate'.

However 1st Class is 1st Class. If mutual acceptance or specific ticket acceptance is agreed you are entitled to that class of travel. The Guard on this occasion could have done better methinks!

My first point however is true. The member of staff does not have to give surname or depot. But can if they wish.

Lastly, I also forgot my manners too! A warm welcome to Cogload as well!