Title: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: ChrisB on March 06, 2013, 11:13:33 Network Rail & FGW are tweeting about a train on fire & all services on stop....
NR amending tweets to say WAsn't a train on fire at PAD, but an issue with a train at Ealing Broadway which caused the train's 'fire bottles' to discharge. Situation resolved, no danger to pax, delays occurring. Emergency services have been on site. Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: JayMac on March 06, 2013, 11:24:24 Can't see any tweets from Network Rail and FGW don't mention it's a train fire.
Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: IndustryInsider on March 06, 2013, 11:29:55 Just a word on how the automatic fire bottles operate:
They are for the engines only and do not operate when there is a saloon fire - manually operated extinguishers have to do the job then. A heat detecting circuit runs round the engine and when it detects abnormal heat then the fire alarm sounds in the drivers cab and when the speed of the train is reduced to less than 6mph the automatic extinguisher activates. If there is an engine fire and that doesn't put it out, then there's a separate extinguisher which can be operated by a pull handle manually. The driver is aware which engine is affected by that carriages 'cant rail' light being lit. So, if there wasn't a fire it must have been a defect with this heat detecting circuit. They have been known to set the extinguishers off at very low temperatures (explain that one if you can!), but it's unusual (though not unheard of) for them to go off under normal running conditions. Ironically when the extinguisher contacts the hot engine there's a hell of a lot of steam which actually makes it look as if there is an engine fire, even if there isn't! Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: ChrisB on March 06, 2013, 11:31:35 Sorry, @Nationalrailenq.....not Network Rail.
And Jess @FGW did mention 'fire' in one tweet.... Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: grahame on March 06, 2013, 11:48:54 This provides a very interesting example of how wide knock-on effects can be.
The 10:00 Paddington to Paignton is running 34 minutes late, and will be terminated at Newton Abbot. So the 14:15 Paignton to Paddington is cancelled from Paignton and Torquay. According to the FGW online ticket site (which is still advertising the 14:15) the next avalable service is the 15:13, with a London arrival of 18:21. Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: Louis94 on March 06, 2013, 12:10:25 0957 Paddington - Oxford was reported to be on fire between Paddington and Acton Mainline on the Relief lines. Train was stood for 15 minutes before continuing to Ealing Broadway where it terminated at 1021, 16 minutes late. The set involved has now gone to Reading Depot - departed Ealing Broadway at 1025.
Lines were blocked for just over 30 minutes - congestion caused has however caused further delays. Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: IndustryInsider on March 06, 2013, 12:16:09 Apparently there had been an oil leak on the train. That might've been enough to trigger the fire system.
Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: ChrisB on March 06, 2013, 12:27:23 In circumstances like these, rather than immediately bring the train to a stand, possibly in the middle of nowhere / very difficult to reach - shouldn't consideration be given to allowing the train to coninue to next station - maybe only when location is close to PAD as the stations aren't far apart & evacuation would be simple.
Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: grahame on March 06, 2013, 13:17:48 In circumstances like these, rather than immediately bring the train to a stand, possibly in the middle of nowhere / very difficult to reach - shouldn't consideration be given to allowing the train to coninue to next station - maybe only when location is close to PAD as the stations aren't far apart & evacuation would be simple. Hmmm ... I'm not sure that fanning the flames by continuing to run a train, to bring it under the enclosed and populous roof at Paddington to make evacuation earlier would be such a good idea Bearing in mind that although most alarms are going to be false, there might be a real incident sometime and as it develops, the people involved won't know which it is. Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: IndustryInsider on March 06, 2013, 13:26:42 Drivers are instructed to not stop the train where access would be very difficult (as in a tunnel, on a viaduct etc.), but yes, if there is a real fire then continuing to a station unless it's literally just round the corner isn't advisable and the type of station would also be a factor, for example running into Reading with the train on fire isn't great, but at the same time the far end of the down main platform at Iver probably would be a good location as it is quiet and has reasonable road access nearby too.
Basically it's a judgement call for the driver depending on the circumstances. It doesn't take long for panicking passengers to start pulling emergency egress handles/pass comms and taking the situation largely out of the drivers control anyway. Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: ChrisB on March 06, 2013, 14:54:57 That final point is very valid....
Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: bobm on March 06, 2013, 18:50:57 Just a word on how the automatic fire bottles operate: They are for the engines only and do not operate when there is a saloon fire - manually operated extinguishers have to do the job then. A heat detecting circuit runs round the engine and when it detects abnormal heat then the fire alarm sounds in the drivers cab and when the speed of the train is reduced to less than 6mph the automatic extinguisher activates. If there is an engine fire and that doesn't put it out, then there's a separate extinguisher which can be operated by a pull handle manually. The driver is aware which engine is affected by that carriages 'cant rail' light being lit. So, if there wasn't a fire it must have been a defect with this heat detecting circuit. They have been known to set the extinguishers off at very low temperatures (explain that one if you can!), but it's unusual (though not unheard of) for them to go off under normal running conditions. Ironically when the extinguisher contacts the hot engine there's a hell of a lot of steam which actually makes it look as if there is an engine fire, even if there isn't! Isn't this also why there are guidelines about when drivers/fitters can go in the "engine room" as they run the danger of being suffocated. Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 06, 2013, 19:30:26 See also a previous discussion on this forum, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=7092.msg71204#msg71204 for details of how these automatic fire extinguisher bottles operate.
Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: gpn01 on March 06, 2013, 20:13:22 In circumstances like these, rather than immediately bring the train to a stand, possibly in the middle of nowhere / very difficult to reach - shouldn't consideration be given to allowing the train to coninue to next station - maybe only when location is close to PAD as the stations aren't far apart & evacuation would be simple. Hmmm ... I'm not sure that fanning the flames by continuing to run a train, to bring it under the enclosed and populous roof at Paddington to make evacuation earlier would be such a good idea Bearing in mind that although most alarms are going to be false, there might be a real incident sometime and as it develops, the people involved won't know which it is. Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 06, 2013, 22:18:37 For some further background information, see also details of a previous real fire situation on the railway near Nailsea - from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/3754902.stm) in October 2004:
Quote Commuters escape from train blaze (http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40191000/jpg/_40191638_train_203.jpg) An investigation has been launched into the cause of the fire At least 20 passengers fled from a train on to the tracks after a carriage caught fire on the outskirts of Bristol on Monday. The blaze on the 8.06pm Wessex trains service from Bristol Temple Meads to Weston-super-Mare burnt out one carriage and badly damaged a second. Eyewitnesses said flames reached 20 feet into the air. All the passengers escaped safely, but three people were treated for the effects of smoke inhalation. The train came to an emergency halt half a mile from Nailsea and Backwell station in north Somerset. British Transport Police said passengers and train controllers had called to report smoke on the train at 8.35pm. Most of the passengers were commuters returning home to north Somerset. Witness Andy Didlick said: "Before I knew what was going on I looked out of the window and there were flames each side of the carriage and smoke coming in." (http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40193000/jpg/_40193040_203_trainwreck.jpg) There is going to be a full investigation and safety is the priority in operating our railways these days. Andy Griffiths, Wessex Trains "We couldn't actually get out. We pushed the emergency thing and nothing happened so we were stuck in there and it was pretty scary." Another told the BBC: "We could hear some alarms going off for about four or five minutes and then one of the other passengers could smell smoke so they alerted the conductor and he said there was nothing the matter. The next thing we knew there was smoke and flames ripping down the carriageway. There were 23 people on there but had it been the half-past five train where it's completely packed out, there could have been people killed on it." Some passengers were forced to move to the rear three carriages to stay safe. "The door wouldn't open at first. We finally opened it and jumped out," another said. One passenger said there had been a smell of burning from the time the train left Bristol. Andy Griffiths from Wessex Trains said: "The doors had been opened when the train was brought to a controlled standstill, and the proper evacuation procedure was carried out. There is going to be a full investigation and safety is the priority in operating our railways these days. We do take these things very seriously and we will learn all the lessons we can from this." An investigation is under way to determine what caused the fire. A British Transport Police spokesman said that preliminary investigations suggested a mechanical fault was to blame. Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: JayMac on March 07, 2013, 05:42:43 Just a word on how the automatic fire bottles operate: They are for the engines only and do not operate when there is a saloon fire - manually operated extinguishers have to do the job then. A heat detecting circuit runs round the engine and when it detects abnormal heat then the fire alarm sounds in the drivers cab and when the speed of the train is reduced to less than 6mph the automatic extinguisher activates. If there is an engine fire and that doesn't put it out, then there's a separate extinguisher which can be operated by a pull handle manually. The driver is aware which engine is affected by that carriages 'cant rail' light being lit. So, if there wasn't a fire it must have been a defect with this heat detecting circuit. They have been known to set the extinguishers off at very low temperatures (explain that one if you can!), but it's unusual (though not unheard of) for them to go off under normal running conditions. Ironically when the extinguisher contacts the hot engine there's a hell of a lot of steam which actually makes it look as if there is an engine fire, even if there isn't! I only briefly saw and commented on this topic earlier yesterday. I'd forgotten all about it until getting back online today. But it was obviously there in my subconscious because I took this photo at Bristol Temple Meads last evening: (http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/Innergen_zps478de923.jpg) Thanks to II's explanation I now know what these bottles are for and how they are activated, but they do rather look like three mini ICBMs* ready for launch.... *Intercontinental Ballistic Missile. No.... I won't be adding the abbreviation to the list. Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: smokey on March 07, 2013, 07:11:59 In circumstances like these, rather than immediately bring the train to a stand, possibly in the middle of nowhere / very difficult to reach - shouldn't consideration be given to allowing the train to coninue to next station - maybe only when location is close to PAD as the stations aren't far apart & evacuation would be simple. With train fires the best place to stop is ASAP, hopefully the Driver would use Judgement and avoid Stopping in/on Tunnels, (worse possible place to have a fire), fill with smoke and Tunnels act as Chimneys. Viaducts, causes Access problems for Emergency services, plus often very windy, Stopping at a Station may seem a good Idea, is it? a fire can get out of control and why let fire take out a Train and Station canopy and buildings! The best place to stop a train has to be near a Road access point Level crossings come top for once. IIRC A train caught fire in the USA, the crew asked for permission to move the train whilst still a small fire. Control said NO leave it, so the burning wagon(s) took out the wooden viaduct they were standing ON. ;D Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: inspector_blakey on March 07, 2013, 17:01:35 A couple of examples of how nasty train fires in tunnels can get: these involved goods trains carrying flammable/hazardous goods, but very fortunately there were no serious injuries in either case. However both incidents caused huge disruption:
Summit Tunnel, UK, Dec 1984 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summit_Tunnel_fire) Howard Street Tunnel, Baltimore, USA, Jul 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Street_Tunnel_fire) Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: ellendune on March 07, 2013, 19:11:47 A couple of examples of how nasty train fires in tunnels can get: these involved goods trains carrying flammable/hazardous goods, but very fortunately there were no serious injuries in either case. However both incidents caused huge disruption: Summit Tunnel, UK, Dec 1984 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summit_Tunnel_fire) Howard Street Tunnel, Baltimore, USA, Jul 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Street_Tunnel_fire) I was working for one of the local authorities concerned at the time of the Summit Tunnel Fire. Indeed it was very nasty. Disruption was not only to rail users. Some people had to be evacuated from their houses and a major transpennine road was closed for some days. There was also a significant water pollution incident. I was also very late home from work. Very fortunate no injuries. Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: Electric train on March 07, 2013, 20:43:34 A couple of examples of how nasty train fires in tunnels can get: these involved goods trains carrying flammable/hazardous goods, but very fortunately there were no serious injuries in either case. However both incidents caused huge disruption: Summit Tunnel, UK, Dec 1984 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summit_Tunnel_fire) Howard Street Tunnel, Baltimore, USA, Jul 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Street_Tunnel_fire) I am working on the Thameslink Program new piece of infrastructure called Canal Tunnels, these tunnels link St Pancras low level to the ECML at Belle Isle (that's between Gas Works and Copenhagen Tunnels just under where HS1 bridge crosses the ECML the Tunnels were bore when St Panc low level was constructed. Part of the project work is the fire evacuation procedure working with the London Fire Brigade, the fire brigade accept that fires on trains are a very rare occurrence. Generally the best place for a train on fire to stop if its carrying passengers is at a station in an open part of the platform that is don't stop under a canopy, over bridge or even over a subway, the best advice for passengers is to move out of the vehicle that is on fire into an adjacent one evacuating passengers out onto an open railway is extremely dangerous as the fire on the 8 Sept 1995 on board the 18:30 Padd to Swansea demonstrated where a male passenger was struck by a train on the UM http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=401 (http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=401) Title: Re: Train on Fire at PAD? Post by: ellendune on March 07, 2013, 21:06:21 ... the best advice for passengers is to move out of the vehicle that is on fire into an adjacent one evacuating passengers out onto an open railway is extremely dangerous as the fire on the 8 Sept 1995 on board the 18:30 Padd to Swansea demonstrated where a male passenger was struck by a train on the UM http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=401 (http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=401) I got on that train, realised I would never get a seat before Reading and decided to wait for the next. Another night I got home very late (actually early the next morning) from work! This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |