Great Western Coffee Shop

A very limited peak service (one train), even if it truely is a peak service, only suits a proportion of regular working commuters.   I came across a list of "Hometime uncertainty" factors on the Diamond Geezer Blog (http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.co.uk), and wondered what the mix is amongst FGW passengers, people who travel each day in our area, and prospective travellers for an improved TransWilts service. 

If you travel to work, please look at this poll and tell me which scenario best describes your situation.   I've reduced it from Diamond Geyser's 10 to 7 categories, and I'm thinking with each of the 7 categories how it's effected by haveing one peak train, a couple of trains, a regular service including evening ...

1. I have a fixed daily finish time
2. I can decide on my own finish (flexitime)
3. I have a usual finish time but may have to work late
4. I can usually decide but may have to work late
5. I work until the job is done
6. I work shifts and the finish time varies
7. I work shifts which can be changed on the day

I've mentioned the issues with my peak services previously. I have a set finish time, however am expected to tie up my last customer before leaving. The service interval I consider poor however is excellent compared to that of Melksham!

From my working days which were pretty flexible, i would say I wanted a service which would have trains that would get me home by 5 on odd occasions when one has an early evening appointment otherwise between 6 and 7 normally (1 hour journey door to door) and a late train to take in meal or entertainment. Also a lunch time one for half days. The lunch and late  ones ware a problem when Taplow had an hourly service off peak but now it's back to half hourly the most you have time for at Padd is a pint.

You look like a (3) then ...  ;)

I saw the topic on the blog I referred to, and was thinking about evening services.  In some places peak fades quickly; in other, such as at Paddington, departing trains are still busy after 19:30.    But where it fades quickly, I was wondering if the small numbers of people might more usually be on the earlier trains, but use the later ones as an occasional standby - so that the removal of he later trains would have a negative effect on the earlier ones - "Although I'm usually on the early / peak train, I can't rely on that.  Remove later trains, and I'm going to have to drive both ways every day because my safety net has been removed".

I think what you are coming round to saying is that even for commuting you need a regular interval (hourly at least?) train service throughout out the day from say 6 am (arrival) to 12 midnight (departure) to/from destination station, to give one maximum flexiblity in choice of times of travel, augumented by peak services as required by the particular route.

After all that was the pattern Southern Electric so successfully introduced after the electrification  on many inner suburban services.  30 minute  Off Peak augmented to 20 minutes in the peak. Plus 4 cars off peak and 8 in peak. This was also applied to some extent on the main lines with 60 minutes intervals off peak and 30 minute peak, although there might be more trains per hour but they would have different stopping patterns.  Of course it meant an awful lot of stock only moved twice a day. Which was not to the "bean counters" liking.

However,  there must be a better breakeven point of providing extra capacity for the peaks which in theory is under utilised the rest of the day and thrashing units to death all day. There is certainly a trade off in failures as was shown when Hull trains dropped (literally) their spare Meridian the reliability of the other units fell dramatically but their utilisation increased.

Not quite - I'm investigating what difference the presence / absence of post-peak train would make to commuter usage - would the lack of such trains simply loose the passengers they carry, or would it loose significant additional travellers who occasionally use the late train but are normally peak travellers.  No conclusion yet - please keep voting


Indeed - but work patterns have changed since the mind 1920s.  In those days, long distance trains were fewer, inner suburban more, there were all night trains too on some of the suburban lines out from Fleet Street / Blackfriars and there was a Christmas day service.   What we can learn from it fades with the decades.


If you have relatively low cost unsophisticated trains (4 SUB) that's directly owned by the operator, that's a very different equation to sophisticated, expensive to build and maintain units owned by a third party that leases them out in a seller's market.

You've hit on another problem of providing extra capacity the cost of additonal units for possibly marginal services. Perhaps there's a need for a modern 14X type unit which meets modern standards but is not as sophisticaed as Desiros and Electrostars, but which will couple to and drive other types of unit. The 737 or Airbus of the railway as Roger Frod would put it.

Coupling standards and lack of them is whole subject in it's own right and maybe not appropriate here, but the Chilterns 172s were meant to improve capacity but are not much use to them as they  have to run solo or coupled to themselves, as they can't couple to 165/8s and can't run via Amersham (no tripcocks). So they have to run dedicated diagrams with the lack of flexibility that gives as they can't be integrated into the main fleet. 

Chiltern 172s can and do couple to 165s and 168s.

Class 148 ... strong body. Single glazed (but tough) windows. 2 carriages. 1 set doors (manual, operated by conductor) on each side in centre of unit, with pivot-over wheelchair ramp. Extra doors by driving cabs. Top speed 60 mph.

Services ... such as
Chippenham -> Yeovil Junction (hourly, 2 units crossing near Westbury)
Bristol Temple Meads -> Avonmouth (every 20 minutes) hourly to Severn Beach, hourly to Parkway
Par -> Newquay (hourly, 2 units)
Plymouth -> Tavistock (hourly, 2 units)
Plymouth -> Gunnislake (hourly, 2 units)
Plymouth -> Liskeard -> Looe ("Pass" at Coombe? / hourly / 3 trains?)
more exotic ...
Exeter -> Okehampton
Kingswear -> Heathfield
Taunton -> Minehead
Portishead -> Bristol Temple Meads
Radstock -> Salisbury
Ludgershall -> Andover
Wareham -> Swanage

Existing services much more frequent; perhaps slightly slower. Released units strengthen more major lines.  Won't happen - too radical  ;D :-\

P.S.  No buffet, no power points at seats, no WiFi, manually controlled heaters, hard bench seats, does the train really need a loo and / or public address and / or LCD "next station is ..." signs, big open space for luggage, pushchairs, cycles etc.

We've got 32 votes in the poll so far.  Please add YOUR end of day requirements if you've not voted yet - the more responses we get the better indication we'll have!

I have a fixed finish time but there are variable factors that can influence which train I make. For example if I'm in the middle of something I might work an extra few minutes which could be enough to miss a train. Also I might need to do some shopping ^ which could mean catching a later train if that end of the journey is in the bigger town, with a better range of shops, which are still open when I finish, or if I'd rather get it done so that I can go straight home once I'm off the train even if there is a supermarket on the way at that end.

Have now found out their wiring is specialy modified to work with Chiltern 165s 168s consequently they can no longer couple with LOREL and LM 172s.

So they are still a non standard group of 4 units limited to Chiltern lines and then not via Amersham.

Grahame your spec sounds very much like some Stadler units in Europe. We could probably have some of the narrow gague ones rewheeled. Although I think I'd have a loo and public address (if only for emergencies).

An encouragement to all the late Sunday night / Monday morning types - if you haven't voted, please do so - the more data I can gather about the end-of-work going-home pattern that you have. 

Just a day to go .... 36 'votes' cast so far and it's an interesting picture.  If you've not added your vote yet, please do so in the next 24 hours - you're helping with a very interesting piece of learning (and it's interesting too  ;D )

I was wondering / researching how important an evening train service is for regular commuters.

On one hand, it has been suggested that a peak service is all that's needed, and lightly loaded trains during the evening aren't worthwhile. And on the other hand it's been suggested that the evening trains are vital because they provide a backup for people who may sometimes have to work late - cut out (or don't provide) the later trains, and you reduce loadings on your peak trains!

So I asked the question "how flexible is your finish time" ... question asked of members of the First Great Western Coffee Shop forum, who will tend already to be train / public transport users, at the start of March 2013. 

Results:

I have a fixed daily finish time    3 (7.3%)
I can decide on my own finish (flexitime)    13 (31.7%)
-> 40% of respondents are OK with a standard time train

I have a usual finish time but may have to work late    6 (14.6%)
I can usually decide but may have to work late    8 (19.5%)
I work until the job is done    2 (4.9%)
I work shifts which can be changed on the day    1 (2.4%)
-> 40% of respondents cannot risk just a standard time train

I work shifts and the finish time varies    8 (19.5%)
-> and the final 20% may be OK with a standard time train on some days

From a very small sample, then, the indication is that a peak only train at going home time will halve the number of people who can go home regularly by train.  In other words, the evening trains are far more important that the numbers of passengers carried may indicate.

Of course, once you have the trains on the track, and the crews working 2 x 8 hour shifts, the evening trains are provided as an increment of the cost - no extra capital investment needed as they're running in marginal time - only operational costs.  So it becomes a no-brainer to say "we need evening trains on commuter lines".