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Tomorrow (Thursday 28th Feb) I have to travel to Romsey and back from Taunton. Normally when I do this route I travel from Taunton on the 07:06 changing at Westbury and return via the same route and a long cold wait at Westbury.

On this occasion I need to be home earlier in the afternoon/evening for various child related taxi service duties. I plan to travel out as usual on the 07:06 from Taunton and come back leaving early afternoon. Looking at National Rail enquiries it shows a return leaving Romsey at 13:21, but changing at Temple Meads rather than Westbury then getting into Taunton at 15:44, which  - despite being slightly long winded - fits perfectly.  Moving onto the Trainline website it doesn't show that service, First Great Western shows a routing also leaving Romsey at 13:21 but changing at Salisbury and Exeter! Now that is mad, a nice train ride I admit but I won't have time for that tomorrow.

Cutting to the chase would a 'normal' anytime return (currently ^32.50) from Taunton permit traveling back via Temple Meads? Is that covered by the 'Any permitted' route specified on this ticket?

Thanks in advance

Try specifying the route (adding a via) in Trainline - it should tell you if two tickets are required - if so, it's not a valid routing. (which I suispect it isn't)

Checking in the routeing guide a Taunton-Romsey ticket would not be valid via Bristol Temple Meads. It is valid via Honiton and Exeter, as the FGW website has offered, but it is a bit of strange route to take, being quite slow. However it would perhaps be useful if you were making an Exeter-Romsey journey. You could start and end your journey short at Exeter on a Taunton-Romsey Anytime return, and save ^7.40 on the cost of an Exeter-Romsey Anytime return.

Thanks for the replies. The TrainLine gives an error message if I try to specify via Temple Meads so that backs up theory that it's not a valid route. Maybe I'll try the Exeter/Honiton another day when I have more time!

Off to the station this evening to see if they can find a way of getting me home on the Temple Meads train.

Actually I've just noticed that when I drill down into the route details for the return via Temple Meads on the National Rail Enquiries website it does actually say "You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey". If all else fails, read the instructions!

Others are correct about it not being a permitted route to travel via Bristol on a Taunton-Romsey Anytime Return.

However, a Taunton-Southampton Anytime Return (Route: Salisbury) is valid via Bristol Temple Meads. This is priced at ^40 and I believe will be the cheapest way to do what you wish.

For routeing purposes, both Taunton and Southampton are routeing points so we can go straight to the maps and see which routes are valid, taking note that they must travel through Salisbury to comply with the route restriction on the ticket and that you actually wish to travel to Romsey.

For journeys between Taunton and Southampton you need to look at the following Routeing Guide maps or map combinations: CE, SS, WE+BB, WE+CE, WR+BB. For the purpose of your journey Wilf19, we need only concern ourselves with the first two maps.

On your outward journey you wish to travel Taunton-Westbury and change. That is allowed by Map SS (http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=101). That passes through Salisbury and onward to Southampton via Romsey.

On your return journey you wish to travel via Bristol. That is allowed on the return portion of a Taunton to Southampton Anytime Return by virtue of Map CE (http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=13). Romsey is between Southampton and Salisbury on that map, you travel through Salisbury, complying with the ticket's routeing restriction, and onward to Bristol to change for Taunton.

Finally with the Taunton-Southampton Anytime Return (Route: Salisbury) you are free to start/end or break your journey at any intermediate station on a permitted route. So it's fine to use the ticket to Romsey.

Out one way ... back the other.  Take a look (I've not got a chance, but others might) to split at Bradford-on-Avon or Bath Spa.  Bath / B-o-A to Taunton tickets are valid (at least some of them) via both Bristol and Castle Cary, so you should be able to to the trip with different out and back routes on return tickets rather than singles.

Ah .... and BNM has just posted a really elegant solution!

I did look at some split fares as well, but could find nothing helpful that would beat a through ticket to Southampton.

Thanks very much for the info bnm, that helps me a lot, off to the station this evening to attempt to purchase that ticket!

cheers

You're most welcome Wilf19. I'm just glad you logged back in and saw my suggestion before heading of the station.

Incidentally, as you are buying this evening, you may even be able to bag seat reservations.

Only be able to reserve seats at Taunton if you go before 19:00.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/SCHEDULE%2017%20-%20December%20%2712.pdf (http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/SCHEDULE%2017%20-%20December%20%2712.pdf)

Just to check whether I understood this.  Wilf19 can do what he wants but it will cost him ^7.50 extra? (40 - 32,50).

Are these fancy maps available to the public?  

I probably won't bother with a seat reservation, I've used the 07:06 quite a bit over the years and find that if I wander down the back to coach B or A I can usually find a free seat - or a seat that is reserved after Westbury - quite easily, famous last words. Even coach E usually has  a good number of free seats on that train. I can usually find a seat on the Westbury - Romsey and v.v train as well, although that usually involves getting someone to move their bag that has, of course, paid for a seat! All bets are off on a Friday evening however.

http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

They aren't the easiest things to get your head round at first though. There are instructions how to use them on the webpage.

What Wilf19 wasn't able to do with a Taunton to Romsey ticket was travel via Bristol. So we had to go looking for alternatives and I always try to ensure the alternatives are the same price, or not much more expensive. In this particular case, I think that Taunton to Romsey should be valid via Bristol, seeing as their are more journey opportunities that way, what with the service via Westbury having long gaps in the timetable or poor connections. Unfortunately the Routeing Guide disagrees, so we have to find a workaround that isn't too expensive.

Every pair of stations on the UK network has Permitted Routes that can be taken when using a ticket marked 'Any Permitted'. There may be more than one Permitted Route. There are also pairs of stations that may have fares that are only valid via a particular point en route, as is the case with the Taunton-Southampton (Route: Salisbury) fare I suggested to Wilf19. Those may also have more than one Permitted Route. Advance Purchase tickets don't come under the scope of the Routeing Guide as they are 'Booked Train Only' and you must follow the itinerary as booked.

First, an advertised through train is always on a Permitted Route, no matter what route it takes.

Second, the shortest route is always a Permitted Route, as is any route that up to 3 miles longer than the shortest route. Determining shortest routes isn't always easy however and even the automated systems can be tripped up by this.

If you wish to travel by a route that doesn't satisfy those two conditions then there are a couple of options open to you. You can follow the route on an itinerary given to you by a booking engine, or booking office clerk. Alternatively you can consult the Routeing Guide to determine all the Permitted Routes you can use. Or ask someone to consult it on your behalf. Although that's probably a fruitless exercise at a station. They'll just use their Journey Planner software which is based around fastest journeys, and even if via points are entered it is unlikely to give up all the Permitted Routes.

Your right to travel by a Permitted Route as defined in the National Routeing Guide is codified in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage part 13(a)(iii) (http://nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf#page=10), which is your contract with the Train Operating Companies.

Using the Routeing Guide is not easy. It's a fiendishly complex set of documents that took me many months of studying before I was confident enough to offer advice based on it. There is a third-part unofficial tool out there that may be of assistance in determining Permitted Routes, but even with that it's helpful to have read the Routeing Guide documents first.

That tool can be found here: http://www.trainscanbecheaper.info/

If you really want to immerse yourself in the National Routeing Guide then the set of documents can be found here: http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

Good luck with those documents. Fiendish doesn't begin to describe them.

I may look to compile a 'sticky' topic about the Routeing Guide on the 'Fare's Fair' board in the coming weeks. I'm hanging fire at the moment because ATOC are in the process of beta testing an online Routeing Guide that may be included on the National Rail Enquiries website.

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In some ways, the old rule: 'Any Reasonable Route' was far easier. There's little doubt that the OP's Taunton to Romsey journey via Bristol would be seen as 'reasonable' by most people. The problem with the old rule though was one person's definition of 'reasonable' was another person's 'taking the p***'. It was mainly for that reason that the National Routeing Guide was drawn up.

Thanks for all that BNM - very much, - but was I right in understanding the option you found for Wilf? (40 -32.50 is 7.50 extra but more convenient?  That was my question.

Thanks for the link SS (ooh, I think I'll stick to the full out version   ;D ).

Ticket to Romsey bought this evening at Taunton station. I thought I'd first try the TVM to see what that came up with, and yes, the ^40 Southamption fare was there but it only said via Salisbury, so being an un-trusting sole when it comes to technology I queued up at the ticket counter to make sure. I explained the tale and the very helpful person did a bit of digging around on his computer he decided that the standard ^32.50 fare from Taunton to Romsey would be OK. He then went to the trouble of printing off loads of 'stuff' which he said I could use as proof if anyone questioned it.

It will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow!

Er... that's all well and good getting 'loads and loads of stuff' from the booking clerk, but does one bit of it include a statement that it's okay to travel via Bristol? With the ticket office stamp on it? I don't foresee problems as on-train staff are likely to be as clueless about the Permitted Routes as this booking clerk appeared to be. If they've just given you a printed itinerary showing you what trains to catch for travelling via Bristol, this might not be enough. Booking office systems will give itineraries for all sorts of journeys. I could ask for and get printed an itinerary for Bristol to Oxford via Worcester. That wouldn't mean the accompanying Bristol-Oxford ticket was valid for that route.

I did explain that the Taunton-Southampton (Route:Salisbury) fare was valid via Bristol. Whether you go via Castle Cary or Bristol you will be passing through Salisbury thus satisfying the route restriction printed on the ticket.

Good luck and I really hope you don't encounter an RPI or clued up guard/TM when you go off route with Taunton-Romsey ticket. Unless you have clear unambiguous authority to travel off route, you could be liable for an excess fare. And it's unlikely that excess will be up to the Taunton-Southampton fare. It'll likely be a fare or combination of fares from the point where you go off route. So that could be an Anytime Day Single from Westbury to Bristol and an Anytime Day Single from Bristol to Taunton. On top of what you've already paid.

If you haven't got clear, unambiguous authority to travel off-route then I suggest that you bring this to the attention of the booking office at Taunton tomorrow morning, before boarding your first train.

As I said, it's unlikely that you'll face any problems, but there is a small chance that you could be caught travelling on an invalid ticket. Do bear that in mind.

<cough>Fife Circle</cough>.

I did try to explain to the ticket office person at Taunton that I didn't think the ^32.50 ticket would do the job, but he was  insistent it would be OK. I didn't want to tell him his job as it's certainly not my area of knowledge or expertise! Dodgy computer systems maybe but not routing rules. He printed off all details on an FGW stamped paper with all sorts of reference numbers on it, so we'll see what happens on the way home this afternoon. I'm fully expecting that there could be a debate about this, easier to argue on the FGW train between Westbury and Temple Meads, I can see it being more tricky on the CrossCountry service from Temple Meads to Taunton.

We'll see what this afternoon brings.

We are all with you Wilf19 and best of luck. 

Er, and the answer to my question BNM please?...... ;D

The question about what I suggested being more convenient for Wilf19?

Not convenient. Valid. The Taunton-Romsey ticket isn't valid via Bristol. The Taunton-Southampton ticket is.

I think I've got the picture now but surely your suggestion to Wilf19 was both convenient and valid?  I understood it that Wilf9 could buy a ticket for ^40 which would entitle him, without quibble, to travel via Bristol, which he had discovered for the return trip was more convenient (i.e. he got home quicker and did not, in his own words, have to wait around in the cold for an hour at Westbury').

So my question was whether by paying ^7.50 extra, he could achieve this, given that you are convinced that ^32.50 only entitles him to travel via Westbury in this case and not via Bristol? 

Correct.  ;)

Well I made it home without having to pay anything above the ^32.50 normal fare. The ticket inspector on the Romsey - Temple Meads leg did query it and I produced the printoff of the routing I had provided by Taunton station and she accepted it without debate. I didn't get ticket checked on the CrossCountry leg to Taunton, I have a feeling things may have got more interesting if I had.

That's the first time in about 15 years of doing that route now and again that I have had to route back via Bristol, in the past when the timetable has come up with that routing as the only option I've given up the unequal struggle and driven. These days driving is my absolute last resort as it's an awful journey and my employer is quite enthusiastic about us using public transport where possible. Might have something to do with be able to 'work' on the train whilst using a laptop and driving probably isn't a good idea.

Thanks for all the help and advice with this especially bignosemac, if there is a next time I'll just by the Southampton ticket and be done with it.

Off to book a much simpler trip to Heathrow for Sunday afternoon.

Looks like BNM (whom I have thanked) is right.  Hopefully a FGW person will put Taunton booking office right.  It's not good, is it, that pax should be put into worrying the whole journey whether they have a valid ticket.  There are enough other angst-ish  factors in travelling by PT as it is.

Until several years ago, Bristol was one of the permitted routes from Westbury (and nearby stations) to Taunton.

It disappeared as a permitted route without any publicity. Does anyone have an old copy of the routeing guide to prove that Bristol was permitted at the beginning of the FGW franchise?

Strangely, a ghost of the previous position still exists: there are still Westbury-Taunton fares "Any permitted" and "not Bristol".

Are you sure those are advertised through trains though...? The Hounslow and Kingston loops out of Waterloo mean that, if you really wanted to, you could travel on a through train from, say, Waterloo to Earlsfield on an exceedingly circuitous route via Twickenham, Strawberry Hill and Kingston. However, I would argue that this is not an advertised through train as the train is not advertised from Waterloo at calling at Earlsfield, but as a service for Strawberry Hill, to avoid anyone making that mistake.


I think, were this to have happened, there would have been a strong defence under Byelaw 18(3)(iii): that an authorized person gave permission to travel without a valid ticket, bearing in mind that the booking clerk is an authorized person under the byelaws (as are almost all railway staff on duty) and there was written evidence of their permission to use the ticket via that route.

I don't know when the routeing was changed for Westbury <->Taunton but I suspect the fares remain because one of them is an old Saver (now Off Peak Return), protected at the time of privatisation. Going back a decade or more there's also the possibility that the service between WSB and TAU was even more sparse than it is today, so via Bristol was a reasonable alternative. On that point I'm speculating. Others may know what the timetable was in the past.

Despite all that it is of course perfectly valid to buy Taunton <-> Bristol walk-up fares and use them to travel Taunton <-> Westbury. Cheaper too!

Taunton <-> Bristol via Westbury remains a permitted route, there are no negative easements and starting/ending short is allowed on all walk-up ticket types.


No doubt. It was for that reason that I made the point that the authority should be clear and unambiguous and with the station stamp. Particularly if you are going to be dealing with more than one TOC on your journey as well as possibly revenue staff at interchange stations. "The man at the station said" or a random printout may not cut much ice with a world weary Train Manager or RPI on a gateline block who have heard all the excuses under the sun. Wilf19's route would most likely have passed the old 'Any Reasonable Route' test, but these days it is better, when doing something a little out of the ordinary, to ensure you are armed with all the evidence. Ultimately, if a clerk has said it's okay you are afforded protection under the Byelaws, but it can be a painful experience fighting your corner if you are without proof of that permission.

I can still get a booking engine to give me it as an option though, put in London Waterloo-Earlsfield via Strawberry Hill on a service with no changes and it will route you on a train advertised as a through service operating via the loop.

Yup: http://www.scotrail.co.uk/timetables-routes/timetable-download/631 (http://www.scotrail.co.uk/timetables-routes/timetable-download/631).