Great Western Coffee Shop

Hello,

I'm thinking of moving to Maidenhead and am doing some research on season ticket options. I work shifts just near to Oxford Circus so I think that a saving can be made on the Maidenhead - Z1-6 season ticket which is currently ^3496.

Here is my plan - I want to check it's allowed!

I would buy a Z1-4 travelcard for ^1744 which would be valid as far as Southall from Paddington on the GWML. If I buy this from Chiltern I believe this qualifies me for free weekend travel with them and a Gold Card?

Would I be correct in saying that in order to travel to London on a weekday during the Peak I would need to buy:
Anytime Day Single Maidenhead - Southall ^7.40
Off Peak Day Single with a Gold Card Maidenhead - Southall ^4.55 (although this wouldn't be valid on some fast Paddington - Maidenhead service in the evening?)

If I wanted to travel Off-Peak I would just need to purchase:
Off Peak Day Return Maidenehead - Southall with a Gold Card ^4.60

At weekends my plan would be to drive to Beaconsfield and use the free Chiltern Railway travel. Also if I'm on a really early or late shift (about once a week) then work pay for a cab either too or from work thus reducing the cost still further.

I know that Oxford Circus isn't that far from Paddington and I could walk, but I like the flexibility a travelcard gives me as I often travel around London to see friends ect after work.

Thanks in advance for your tips/advice!

I think the Chiltern purchase needs to be valid for travel on their network in order to obtain free travel across the remainder of their network. The Gold Card is also obtainable when purchased from FGW....

Yes, but it is perfectly legitimate to buy a Z1-4 Travelcard from Chiltern in this instance as Chiltern have three stations in zone 4. Zone 4 travel is also valid east of Southall, so no problem.

You may find they sell them on an Oyster card, which is valid on Chiltern within the zonal system. Is it valid on FGW within the zones?

Of course, why wouldn't it be?

Wasn't sure if all TOCs now accept Oyster out to zone 6....

They always accepted Oyster travelcard seasons, it was the Pay As You Go that was the issue. Although even that is a redundant issue as all TOCs now accept Oyster PAYG.

A Zone 1-4 Travelcard Season would be valid for travel on Chiltern. As the free weekend travel offer terms mention having the Season on Oyster, it follows that a Season wholly for use in the Travelcard zones is eligible for the offer.

I see no problems with what autotank wishes to do. You can either purchase add-on tickets to/from Southall or Boundary Zone 4. Same price, same validity. No requirement to call when used in combination with a Season.

If you use an Off Peak Day Single in the BZ4/Southall - Maidenhead direction, in combination with the Travelcard Season, you are okay to use any train off Paddington in the evening. The restriction code in that direction for the ticket from BZ4/Southall is W1 (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/OffPeak.pdf#page=121), valid after 0930, no evening peak restrictions.

However, if you buy an Off Peak Day Return with origin Maidenhead to BZ4/Southall, the restriction code is the infamous P7 (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/OffPeak.pdf#page=86) and you cannot catch any trains on the 'barred' list. However, the only direct fast service, that calls at Maidenhead, on that list is the 1750 to Worcester SH. You'll also need to avoid the 1649 and 1851 to Oxford, changing at Slough.

Indeed - so how much will this save you autotank?

As a fellow Maidenhead commuter I've looked into this option before and I struggled to come up with any savings (assuming you are travelling 5 days a week normally?)

My maths was as follows:

Daily Maidenhead-->Southall return = ^7.40 + ^4.55 = ^11.95.
Multiplied by 200 (days of the year, allowing for a decent holiday quota!) = ^2390.

Plus the ^1744 for the Z1-4 travelcard = ^4134

You'd have to be only travelling in to London on 146 weekdays (2.8 per week) before this became a saving on the ^3496 season ticket, and thats before the hassle of queuing up every morning and evening to get a new ticket....

Well, that was my maths anyway.  :)

PS> an afterthought is that at least as a daily traveller you would qualify for 'proper' compensation everytime your train was delayed rather than the 5% shocker us season ticket travellers suffer.

You haven't factored in the cost of regular free week-end travel anywhere on the Chiltern network, NicKB.

autotank will be allowed free weekend travel if a Travelcard Season is bought from Chiltern. Won't be allowed free weekend travel on Chiltern if a Maidenhead to Zones 1-6 Travelcard is purchased.

Free weekend travel on Chiltern is only available if the origin station is on the Chiltern network or in the Travelcard zones.

Whether the value of the free weekend travel is worth the ^640 difference, will depend on how often and to where autotank chooses to travel on the Chiltern Network.

There's also the point that autotank has said that some of his Maidenhead-London return trips will be wholly in the Off-Peak meaning the daily add-on fare will be ^4.60 rather than ^7.40+^4.55.

Also, from Chiltern's website -

So, keep it with your Oyster....could be expensive if you forget it!

Thanks for all your replies - very useful!

As I work shifts I only have to travel up to London during the morning peak once or twice a week maximum, so I think there are savings to be made doing it this way. The free travel on Chiltern at weekends would also be useful as I used to live in Leamington Spa and it makes a trip to the SVR or a spin on the Shakespeare Express much cheaper!

A couple more quick questions:

I'd prefer to get the Z1-4 travelcard on Oyster, but will this present me with issues at Paddington when using fast services from Platforms 2-5? Also if I touch in at Paddington does it matter that I won't touch out? (i.e. I won't get charged the Oyster maximum penatly fare)

Would I need proof of holding a Z1-4 travelcard other than an Oyster if I get gripped between Paddington and Maidenhead on an HST? (I assume Train Managers don't have Oyster readers?)

Thanks!

If you can't touch in or out with an Oyster card loaded with a season ticket it doesn't matter. There is no requirement for a journey using an Oyster Season to be 'complete' (i.e. touching in and touching out). As long as you are travelling within the zones for which your Oyster Season is valid, no credit will be deducted from any PAYG balance you might also have stored on the Oyster. Even if you touch in in Zone 1 (Paddington) and then travel to Maidenhead with the correct add-on paper ticket fare, you won't be penalised. The system assumes you've made a journey within the validity of your season ticket.

If you are travelling from a platform at Paddington without barriers/Oyster readers there is no need to touch in. In combination with your add-on fares you have tickets valid for your entire journey. Oyster is just a different medium on which the season ticket is held. As the combination is valid for the entire journey without the need to call at the split point then there's no need, or even practical opportunity, to touch out where the validity of your Oyster Season ends. Indeed, if you had a Boundary Zone 4-Maidenhead add-on, it would be impossible. Boundary Zones are an abstract construct, not physical locations.

It also matters not one jot whether on-board staff have the ability to check your Oyster. You have a valid ticket. Whether it can be checked on board or not is their problem, not yours. Although carrying the record card won't do any harm.

I suspect they may be able to detain you with the assistance of RPIs or the BTP until they can verify your Oyster should you get an obstreperous TM

That would make a very interesting legal case.  :o

I suspect they would be acting beyond their legal authority if they did.

The legal requirement is to produce a valid ticket when requested. An Oyster card with a Season ticket on it, or one with PAYG credit for a journey within the zones that has been touched in, are both valid tickets. Your legal duty has been discharged if you present it for inspection. Oyster is merely the medium on which the ticket or fare is held. If on-train staff have no way of checking that medium then that's their problem. Without the ability to check there should be the presumption of innocence. BTP will be mightily hacked off if they attend at the request of on-train staff only to subsequently discover the Oyster card held is perfectly valid.

Indeed, but you'd still be detained until its checked...happened to me eithin the zones....

And you sued for being wrongfully detained I trust.

You cannot be legally detained in this situation unless you have refused to give your name and address. It's actually quite a serious matter to detain someone without legal authority.

What did they do in your situation ChrisB? I'm really interested to know. Did you submit to the unlawful detention? How long was it before your Oyster could be checked?

And if you haven't kicked up a stink over the illegal detention can I also ask why? I'd be spitting feathers and shouting from the rooftops.

Whilst anyone has the power to detain/arrest they can only do so if the person is in the act of committing an indictable* offence, or they have reasonable grounds for suspecting a person may be committing an indictable offence. Even then the power for anyone to detain/arrest is limited to a very narrow set of circumstances.

These are that:
(a)the person making the arrest has reasonable grounds for believing that for any of the reasons mentioned below it is necessary to arrest the person in question; and
(b)it appears to the person making the arrest that it is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make it instead.
The reasons are to prevent the person in question^
(i)causing physical injury to himself or any other person;
(ii)suffering physical injury;
(iii)causing loss of or damage to property; or
(iv)making off before a constable can assume responsibility for him.

Railway Byelaw breaches and offences under Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (except 5(2) which relates to a failure to give one's name and address) are summary offences for which only a constable has the power to detain/arrest.



*Triable at Crown Court

Knowing that all was in order, I refused my name & address. My Oystercard is registered, they could find out who I was.

It was 15 minutes before they read my Oyster, which is the time it took another member of staff to arrive. It would take more of my time to complain, and it wouldn't have achieved much.

If it had been longer, or of the staff member wasn't apologetic for the wait, yes, I'd have thrown the book.

Aha. You've offered up a ticket for inspection, no need to offer a name and address.

I'd still've kicked up a fuss with the TOC concerned if I'd been illegally detained for 5 minutes, 15 minutes... whatever length of time. But that's just me.

If staff and their employers aren't made aware of the limits of their authority then they will continue to act outside the law. Rail staff already have certain powers, we (or at least I) don't want to see them get more by default.