Great Western Coffee Shop

Ten images. All away from FGW land excepting one ringer.

Just for fun. No prizes.

One guess each please for the first 24 hours.

1. Stockport. Answered by Oxman
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/100_1467.jpg)

2. Birmingham New Street. thetrout
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/100_1442.jpg)

3. Manchester Piccadilly. basset44
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/100_1479.jpg)

4. Coventry. Southern Stag
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/100_1494.jpg)

5. Crewe. Andy W
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/100_1451.jpg)

6. Stoke-on-Trent. EBrown
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/100_1485.jpg)

7. Taunton. chris from nailsea
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/100_1418-1.jpg)

8. Wolverhampton. plymothian
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/100_1487.jpg)

9. Manchester Victoria. Worcester_Passenger
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/100_1473.jpg)

10. Alsager. EBrown (again  ::))
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/100_1458.jpg)

BONUS POINT: Image 3 shows two-thirds of the Train Operators that serve this location. Can you name the two train operators not shown?

(9) Manchester Victoria

Bonus point : First Transpennine Express and East Midlands Trains

Correct on both!

Manchester Victoria is a mess of a station. It could be so much better if a careful renovation was carried out. Avoid the toilets at all costs! Even the ones in the Metro Bar. Disgusting.

No 3 MANCHESTER PICCADILLY [MAN] ?

Basset

is one of the operators not shown East Midland Trains

Number 1: Stockport?

3. Correct.

Both operators already answered correctly by Worcester_Passenger.

Correct. No.1 Signal Box, Stockport.

Is 4 the rather recognisable and ghastly station that is Coventry.

Correct. Although I disagree that it is ghastly. In the Modernist/Brutalist style and one of the better examples from the era when such styles were popular (for how not to do it, see Stafford station). Designed by London Midland Region in-house architect W R Headley, who was also responsible for Birmingham New Street's signal box. Coventry Station has some interesting features such as the marble floor tiling, the wood panelling on the booking hall ceiling and platform canopies, the white on black signage. These original touches have been somewhat spoiled by the addition of Virgin red wherever they have been allowed to get away with it.

Coventry Station is Grade II listed. http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1242849

8.  Wolverhampton

Correct.

Ooh, you bustard! :o ;D

7.  Taunton.  ::)

5 Crewe

Correct. Shoe-horned into the set just for you Chris.  :P ;) ;D

Correct. One of West Coast Railways' Class 47s. The same day as that picture was taken one of WCR's other 47s (47500) derailed and caught fire near Salford Crescent station. This snarled up the rail network in Manchester that afternoon and rather curtailed my plans to travel around the city. I actually saw the set involved in the derailment earlier in the day, in the sidings at Ardwick near Piccadilly, from my passing Pendolino.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-21168719

6. Stoke-on-Trent

Correct.

That just leaves pictures 2 and 10.

2 Cannon Street? When does the 24 hours end?

24 hours after bignosemac's original post?  ;D

If 2 is Cannon Street - what's a Welsh police officer doing there?

A Guess as I'm not 100% sure... But:

No 2. Birmingham New Street?

If 2 is Birmingham New Street - what's a Welsh police officer doing there?

(No, I don't know the answer either, yet. ;D )

Correct.


Shoulder epaulettes were 'pip' and crown so he would have been a Chief Superintendent. Internet digging and finding a picture leads me to believe he is the CS for BTP Wales and Western region, who is based in Birmingham. I wonder whether he has two sets of uniforms. One with prominent Welsh wording and one with only English.

Incidentally, I've just discovered that the Officer in overall charge of the BTPs Neighbourhood Policing Teams in London was called Chief Inspector Dreyfus.* I just hope he didn't have a Clouseau in his ranks!


*Now promoted to Superintendent. Perhaps to stop the jokes.  ;D

Thanks for that excellent detective work, bignosemac!  ;D

I'm only surprised that British Transport Police officers in Wales and Western Region don't have just the one version of the reflective panel, showing POLICE and HEDDLU, and have done with it, for half the cost. ::)

His back panel did have the English translation in much smaller script.

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/HTP.jpg)

Back to the quiz. Just picture 10 to get. I rather suspected this might be the toughest of the bunch.

I believe it's Alsager (ASG)?

And I believe you didn't read, or have ignored, the prominent sentence (in bold and underlined) at the head of the OP. There's always one. ::) :P

Never mind. Correct.

This was a part of the network that I'm more familiar with than parts of FGW-land - which meant that I recognised about half of them. But I was very surprised that it took so long for Birmingham New Street to be named.

Me too. In fact I used to live in Alsager and spent many happy hours at Crewe watching the 'Big 'Uns' come and go. Great in those days as there was often a change of engine at Crewe so you'd also get a lot of additional movements on/off 5A.

The Knotty was finally electrified from Crewe to Kidsgrove not so long ago so that there is a good WCML diversionary route south from Crewe through Stoke. I don't know if you noticed BMN but at the time that the electrification was done much of the line from Radway Green (now closed) on to Crewe was singled !!!

So in one fell swoop you get a good upgrade & then limit it's use - I can never figure out Network Rail!!

The only one I could get was Manchester Victoria - I used to use it every day - but someone beat me to it.

As a follow-up, how about a little fares teaser?

I travelled from Bristol - Manchester on Wednesday 23rd and returned on Thursday 24th. With walk-up tickets.

Bristol - Birmingham was Standard Class Off Peak Return, although I didn't use a Bristol - Birmingham ticket. I paid ^26.50 - no splits. The Bristol - Birmingham advertised Off Peak Return is ^50.40

Birmingham to Manchester was a selection of 1st Class Anytime Day tickets totalling ^48 allowing me to travel up via Crewe, Alsager and Stoke-on-Trent (Virgin, London Midland, Virgin) in that order. On the return I changed at Stoke-on-Trent (Virgin, CrossCountry). The Birmingham to Manchester advertised 1st Class Off Peak Return is ^85.50.

Anyone like to have a guess at the tickets I purchased?

Go on BNM. This intrigues me!

Th first part (Briz-Brum) involved use of a ticket between two towns both known for having a spa....

My apologies. I missed that - probably something to do with being awake at a silly time. Excuses aside, apologies.

So it was Bath Spa to Droitwich Spa, as per above priced at ^26.50.

The next question- how did you get around the "Not via Birmingham" routing point?  ;)

Easement 3055 in the routing guide per chance?

Easement 30055 wouldn't have worked as that applies on Saturday and Sunday only. Plus there is some ambiguity in whether an easement can trump a ticket's routeing. As Bath Spa - Droitwich Spa SVR is routed 'Not Via Birmingham' I think it better to find a fare that doesn't have that conflict between an easement and it the routeing printed on it.

So, the ticket I used was Melksham* (it once had a spa!) - Droitwich Spa. This is routed 'Any Permitted' and the National Routeing Guide allows the journey to be made via Birmingham New Street on Map CE (http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=13). Chippenham is the appropriate Routeing Point for Melksham and it passes the fares check rule as the fare from Chippenham is the same.

Now, what about those 1st Class fares from Birmingham - Manchester?  ;)

Interesting. If I try the same journey from Bath, then the tickets appear to be shown as "not via Birmingham".

So, given the routing guide maps are not the easiest to understand, am I correct in saying that a ticket from Chippenham to Droitwich is valid via Birmingham, because you can follow a line from Chippenham to Droitwich that goes through Birmingham and doesn't include doubling back on yourself?

How is any "normal" passenger expected to understand the intricacies of the routing guide, let alone the myriad of easements? Indeed, I do wonder how on earth railway staff are expected or able to know such a level of detail. 

You are correct in your analysis of the route, John R.

NRCoC condition 13 (a)(iii) allows you to travel on any permitted route that is shown in the National Routeing Guide. You have to take into account any routeing/TOC restriction printed on the ticket then trace a route from origin Routeing Point (in this case - Chippenham) to destination Routeing Point (Worcester) without doubling back through any station. You are also allowed to start and end your journey short at intermediate stations as long as the ticket's restriction code doesn't prevent this (NRCoC condition 16).

Droitwich Spa is a Routeing Point, although this isn't clear from the maps. You need to look up the station in the full station list of the Routeing Guide ('pink pages'). From that you learn that Droitwich Spa is part of 'Worcester Group' stations, so Worcester is the appropriate Routeing Point. Finally you need to check that there are no negative easements that would prevent you taking the route you have traced. In this case there nearly is - Easement 700189 - but whoever wrote that (CrossCountry I suspect) neglected to include Droitwich Spa!

The only way 'normals' can be expected to know of these intricacies is to learn the Routeing Guide and ticket validities for themselves, or seek help from others who have studied them. It's unlikely that you'll get help from railway staff, excepting the few who have also taken time to study it. Helping customers exploit loopholes to save money, or to travel by unusual routes is without the remit and training of rail retail staff unfortunately.

A negative easement is an interesting, if somewhat illogical, concept.

The implication of the presence of negative easements is that it seems to require a passenger to interpret not only the routing guide, but also that to rely on the routing guide they would have to plough through hundreds of easements to ensure that there is not a negative easement that would bar a journey that the routing guide would allow. As this list can be updated at any time, they would presumably have to do this every time before they purchase a ticket.

Unfair contract terms, maybe?

It's a minefield indeed. And one that needs treading through very carefully.  ::)

I'm highlighting here the tickets I used, and I'm well prepared to argue my corner should a difference of opinion with rail staff occur.

If I were to offer advice to someone using the same ticket then that advice would be to go armed with all the details from the Routeing Guide. But you have to weigh up the potential hassle versus the money saved.

The fares system is extremely complex. I use that complexity to my advantage and will always warn others of the potential pitfalls should they choose to use a ticket like I have. I'm confident that what I'm doing is valid and in practice I've had few problems on the route between Bristol and Birmingham. Worst I've had is a ticket withdrawn for further investigation with a zero fare replacement given to allow me to complete my journey. After correspondence with the train company concerned they confirmed my original ticket was valid and gave me a goodwill gesture by way of apology for having withdrawn my ticket.

Where can this weird and wonderful Routing Guide be obtained... I would certainly be interested in a copy for my own education... I'm tempted to see how far I can push a ticket I normally use but I'm not anywhere near brave enough unless this device suggests I "could" do it legitimately. But as BNM pointed out, It might not be worth the hassle like I had yesterday.

*** EDIT *** Please see my next post on Page 4 of this thread for clarification. There are a couple of errors in this original post which will become clear in my next post. I won't edit this post as it will make others' posts look out of context. Thanks are sorry. TT ***

I had a member of staff try and tell me that as I had reached a London Terminals Station my journey was complete. I argued how I had completed my journey when all I had done was transfer from the EMT Platforms to the FCC Platforms at St Pancras.

The chap informed me that because I had arrived on an EMT Service to a London Terminal that was when the journey completes even though I was changing trains at the same station. When I asked him about continuing my journey onto a "London Terminal" other than St Pancras if I had changed trains from EMT to FCC at Luton Airport Parkway and continued through St Pancras, he refused to answer my question and said "I'm telling you for the third time you cannot do that" My response was simple and polite "I appreciate what you'te saying, but the thing is, you haven't answered a perfectly valid and reasonable question. Why does it make a difference to validity if I changed at Luton Airport Parkway rather than St Pancras?" He then asked me to "Go Away" because "He had to much to do" I then got a little bit mift at this and asked to speak to a manager. Well you can imagine how that went down... when the manager agreed with me... ::) >:( ;D

Annoyingly, he further suggested changing at Luton Airport Parkway to save the hassle and my ticket could be cheaper... Well that would be the case for a FCC Service... Tickets are cheaper than EMT for a reason :-X :-\ ::) :o ;)

^The internet. Its freely available as a whole or several composite parts.

It isn't always that simple. Your ticket probably wasn't valid for Cross London on the tube.

http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

But, be warned, it's all there as a series of PDF files, not as something that you can neatly select from drop-down boxes. The 'yellow pages', the matrix of routining-point-to-routing-point combinations, comes out at 1143 pages.

Grahame - there may be scope for your ability here to process publicly-available information and present it to us mortals in an understandable way.

It *is* a nightmare to use.   And since some of the easements are negative ones, in theory you may have to "scroll through" the entire list for any journey - even if it's valid by the normal rules - to see if it's explicity banned.  Actually I'm in doubt about that latter as it tells you only to look through for extra possibiiities - to see if other things are allowed, and I suspect you would have a strng case to argue if you broke a negative easement and wanted to take it up.   Field day for the experts in the fares offices.   Mere mortal passengers are simply expected to read and understand :'(

It isn't just the route allowed by a ticket which can make a difference. Thanks to the patient advice of some on this forum I have saved money by using a combination of split tickets which have different time restrictions than a through ticket on the same train.

From what you've said so far, that's right.  If you are travelling into St Pancras with a London Terminals ticket you have reached your destination.  Where were you hoping to go next on this ticket?

It isn't actually a ticket to ANY London Terminal, but only to an appropriate one. There is sometimes a choice of terminal, and from many South Coast stations there nearly always is, but not in the case of some stations on the MML.

The explanation seems to have been badly expressed - but the principle was correct.

Paul

I think I owe everyone an apology... :-X

There was a misunderstanding with the ticket I held. I am wondering if the barrier staff member fell in the same trap I did...!

I misread the ticket destination. I thought it said London Terminals. Actually the ticket I held was to LONDON THAMESLINK which was perfectly valid for what I was trying to do. However a dyslexia related error meant when I made my OP I posted the wrong Destination.

Fortunately. Bignosemac and me exchanged PM's after an initial "ahem" and identified my error. (Thanks BNM ;) ) The FCR Ticket I held was the giveaway of which there is only an FSR for Bedford - St Pancras which is valid on East Midlands Trains only. Mine had no apparent similar restriction.

There is an FCR for London Thameslink at ^22.10 with Railcard from London Thameslink - Bedford. I held this ticket. The FSR with EMT being ^39.40 which doesn't allow travel with FCC.

The member of staff who sold me the ticket didn't query my journey plans as I probably gave the impression I knew what I was doing. I stated London Blackfriars as my destination as I knew the line to London Bridge was closed (TfL Ticket Acceptance is in place when the mine is closed but wasn't relevant for me as Blackfriars in this rare case was much more convenient)

Sorry to confuse everyone.

TT

Thanks for that thetrout.  ;)

So, it turns out the barrier staff at St Pancras were wrong. Your ticket from Bedford - London Thameslink (Any Permitted 1st Off Peak Day Return) was valid for onward travel to various stations on the Thameslink route in London (Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle). When the Thameslink core is closed for engineering there is acceptance in place by TfL to allow travel on the Underground.