Great Western Coffee Shop

Advice please

I arrive at the station too late to buy a ticket and hop on the train with the full intention of paying either on train or at other end.  Will I have the option to pay for the ticket or will I automatically get a penalty fare.  If the latter, why?

Scenario 2: Unmanned station, machine only takes cards, I only have cash

Thanks
James

Scenario 1: Penalty Fare (or prosecution) if you are stopped by an authorised Penalty Fare Collector (i.e. Revenue Protection Officer).  Full undiscounted fare if stopped by the guard or train manager.  If this policy was not in force, then everyone would just "chance it".

Scenario 2: Depends how you interpret the Penalty Fare Rules.

Suppose you get on the train & immediately find the train manager to pay for your ticket explaining your predicament. Would that be seen as acceptable?

I appreciate you should "arrive" at a station in good time to buy a ticket - what are the rules if you have a ticket from A to B but due to a change of plans you need to change at B for a train to C.  If your first train is delayed and there is no one selling tickets on it and you arrive at B with less than the connection time allowed would you then be allowed to purchase a ticket on the second train without penalty?

Scenario 1: Agree with Brucey

Scenario 2: Grey area and one would expect discretion to be shown. If you have no acceptable card, or a card with no funds then that option is obviously not open to you. So you haven't passed an opportunity to pay.

If you have a card with cleared funds that the machine would accept and you choose not to use it then that may be taken as having had an opportunity to purchase and you could be liable for a PF or prosecution if you failed to take that opportunity.

Thanks Brucey

So we are saying that if I genuinely got there with moments to spare because I was, say, delayed getting out of the house by family issues or en route because of traffic to station, and unluckily for me a revenue officer was on board not a train guard then I pay penalty fare without any discretion?  I daren't miss the train as there isn't another for half an hour and would otherwise be late for work/college.

You say "otherwise everyone would chance it", however if there was a consistent approach (train manager on every train or manned stations with barriers) then people would know there is no chance of "chancing it".

The above is a real example (involving my son on the Reading/Guildford route) however on my normal commute to Paddington for several weeks around Christmas the barriers at platform 11-14 bridge were unmanned and open in the morning peak every day.  The station I leave from has free access to the platform.  I could have avoided paying for the outward part of my journey (and sometimes the return too) everyday.  Never a guard, inspector or revenue officer on peak turbo trains into or out of London.  For the record, I did not avoid paying for any journey  :)
 
Andy W - how do I know if/whether there's a train manager on board and if so where to find him/her? Surely better to wait until he/she arrives.

BNM - Sounds reasonable


This is not a rant against anyone here, merely a rant at the system from a genuine rule abiding passenger/customer/client who is also trying to explain the rules to a beligerant teenager who couldnt get up early enough!

You could alternatively be prosecuted under the railway byelaws, for failing to present a valid ticket when requested.

A Penalty Fare is exactly that, a fare (not fine) paid for honest mistakes or reasons where intentional fare avoidance is not suspected.  It is designed as an incentive to buy a ticket for travelling.

Not actively seeking out the train manager or guard could be seen as intention to avoid payment and could lead to a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution, which is recordable on criminal record checks.

Yes. I would suggest that arriving without enough time to buy a ticket is probably one of the reasons least likely to get a sympathetic hearing. Where a facility exists to purchase a ticket (and that facility is able to take a form of payment that you have)  then you have an obligation to purchase before you board, and should allow enough time. 

And yes, lots of people do chance it.  The frequency of stops and possible rush hour crushes means that it's not always possible for a ticket seller to get through the train, and neither it is practical to have a manned barrier at smaller stations.  So without the penalty fare, there will be no incentive for someone to purchase a ticket before boarding, as they will hope that they don't get an "opportunity" to purchase before reaching their stop.

As far as I know the TM / Guard actually stands outside the train until departure so can easily be found - although not sure what happens if the train is DOO. On Turbos they seem to start in the rear cab. Just make sure your son is aware that it is his job to pay and make every effort to do so.

On a DOO service, there is no guard. There *may* be a ticket examiner or RPI on board, but this is not always the case. The obligations of the passenger remain the same: if there is a ticket office or ticket machine in working order that will accept a method of payment available to you at the station, you *must* buy your ticket before you board, and it is your responsibility to ensure you leave sufficient time to do so. Sob stories about your car breaking down on the way to the station, being on an urgent journey to see a dying relation etc etc will cut absolutely no ice. An awful lot of people chance it and staff have heard all these stories, and many others, several times before.

If you board a DOO service from a station where there is no ticket office and no machine, then you must buy a ticket at the first reasonable opportunity. This may be at your destination, or if you change trains en route at a station where you can buy the ticket you need. Note that again this is a slightly grey area. You would certainly need to be making an "official", timetabled connection. However at many stations this could be as short as 5 minutes, in which case *in my personal opinion* this would not necessarily be a "reasonable" opportunity. If I reasonably thought that buying a ticket at my interchange station would result in me missing my connection then I would board my second train and expect to be able to pay the appropriate fare that I would have done if there had been a ticket office/machine at my starting point.

I must stress that this is a personal opinion and does not constitute any kind of official advice.

With regard to Penalty Fares and interchanges, this is covered in the Penalty Fares Policy that all TOCs who run a PF scheme should adhere to:


So, in a PF area you needn't delay your journey to purchase a ticket at an interchange if their were no facilities at your origin. And in non-penalty fares areas I'd argue the same should apply.

I can add very slightly to this. The Prosecutions Manager for GW considers three minutes to not be long enough, that is the only example I have for this - although everything is considered on a case by case basis.

Don't forget some stations still have a penalty fare machine in which you can put 10p and be spared any hassle.

Especialy if like Taplow you want to pay by cash and the ticket office is closed and the TVM only accepts cards.

I think you meant to write 'permit to travel' (PTT) machine?

Although they are basically obsolescent, and normally are switched off where they still exist, unless both the TVM and ticket office are unavailable/closed.

Paul

Yep meant PTT senior moment!

Aarg,

In your son's case, all trains between Guildford and Reading have a guard - its a safety requirement. The guard will be in the rear cab, looking out of the window, so he/she can use the buzzer to communicate with the driver to close doors etc.

So, tell your son to speak to the guard. Say that he needs to buy a ticket and can he board the train. I cannot imagine and guard refusing. Then board at the nearest door and wait for the guard to appear.

Simples.

Penalty Fares queries certainly do seem to raise their ugly heads more often than most. (Argg, that is not a dig at you at all btw) ;)

To me, if this is the case. Is the PF system fit for purpose? Clearly from posts not at all exclusive to this forum, seem to be heavily discussed and people don't understand exactly what they are.

I raised this post in another thread a while ago, which sadly went unanswered by the poster I was replying to. But Argg has raised an interesting point of arriving too late to buy your ticket.


Now there is a very good reason why I chose this bus as an example. The 20:22 Bus is the next service in the time table. Prior to a fairly recent timetable change the departure was 18:22 exactly two hours before the 20:22. In the new timetable the bus leaves at 18:28 which is 1 hour and 54 minutes until the next bus.

Is it really appropriate for an RPI in this case to say "You should've left earlier" ?? I'd be interested to see their reaction when they're told how much "earlier" I would've needed to leave to get there and how much waiting around would need to be done!

Personally, If intended a good connection and then suffered delay on route. I don't think I should be liable to a penalty fare. I also think that a missed departure on an Advance Ticket should be honoured. Because the 17:49, 18:28, 20:22 and 22:22 Bus Services are the last departures of the day and are all operated by FirstGroup. So (and grahame also agreed IIRC) as they are run by the same parent company, I think a ticket should be sold/passed without question on production of your Bus Ticket.

Also as I pointed out in the original post. Is one expected to check the timetable/bus route each time they intend to take a train? I don't suppose you would agree on how tedious that would be every day? (I use buses and trains pretty much every day)

Even then, that "delay" information is only as good as the person feeding it into the computer. Some companies (including a primary operator in Somerset & Wiltshire) predominately supply this information mainly over Facebook. Even to this day, not everyone has a Facebook Account.

Invariably, with FirstGroup's Service Updates, You tend to only find the delay info once the delay has started, really useful to find the 14:49 is cancelled at 14:45.

Perhaps when you look at other transport method's failings, it becomes clear how even the smallest delay has a large knock on effect which could end up being very costly (i.e. missed Advance Ticket Departure). Perhaps integration is a necessity rather than a desirability. But I don't think we'll ever achieve true integration with such a fragmented transport industry which seems to encourage PF's even for what could be a genuine issue through no fault of your own (i.e. It was the bus companies fault)

Completely throwing the thread off topic. I wonder IF I received a Penalty Fare for missing an Advance Ticket Departure because the First Bus 267 broke down, whether FG would cover costs for the PF and reimburse me for both my Rail Tickets and Bus tickets?

I thought not..............

No, just like Virgin Atlantic would not reimburse you if you missed your flight because your Virgin Train was late.

And this is the problem with large transport conglomerates.  One name, one brand, one logo... Two or three or four very different companies. 

At my station we do not even stock first timetables, yet we do stock the rival bus companies!

Go figure.

My emphasis - but if an RPI saw this, a PF it would be....

And what if the teenager suffered from Mental Health Conditions such as Insomnia, Depression and Anxiety to name a few?

(I threw that one out there as I suffer from all three of those conditions which started when I was in secondary school, and yes, I did used to fall asleep on the School Bus and during lessons!) :o

It gets very complicated and goes down to individual operator policy more than 'the rules'.

You're missing the point slightly here I think.

The important consideration isn't so much whether you *personally* are at fault, it's whether or not the *railway* is at fault. Clearly if your bus gets you to the station too late to buy a ticket that isn't because the railway is at fault. You would therefore not be technically protected should you choose to join a train without a ticket on that basis.

It sounds a bit harsh, but looking at things from a completely blunt, factual, legal and contractual point of view, it's not the railway's fault or problem that you can only get to the station on a two-hourly bus service that makes an iffy connection. It's possible that staff might show discretion, but you wouldn't be entitled to it I'm afraid.

It may indeed perhaps seem a bit harsh, but that's life, and I'm with blakey on his summary of that situation.  ::)