Great Western Coffee Shop

from http://www.thisisdorset.co.uk/story-17731824-detail/story.html?

At 118 miles , that's a fare of just under 19 pounds, Dan ... only available tomorrow as an advanced fare on the 22:35 as far as I can see, getting into Paddington at 00:34 on Thursday.  Also, there's a 38.70 day return, superoffpeak, Bristol to London Waterloo via Salisbury; choice of 7 services to London and about the same number back.

I'm slightly surprised that it's this particular fare level - enjoyed by only a tiny minority - that FGW are choosing to benchmark against.

At 16p per mile it does seem somewhat accurate when you look at the Super Off Peak Day return.

Roughly ^19 each way. Super Off Peak ^38.70

Then consider that the ticket is valid only via Salisbury so is much further than Bristol - Paddington via Didcot Parkway. Then very inaccurate.

Very misleading I feel. Perhaps could even be classed as False Advertising?!

Removed.

One could argue 'on the contrary, very noble' if he is advertising tickets only available, realistically, via the competition!

Just as supermarkets are required additionally to quote prices per unit weight or volume, should TOC's be required to show fares per mile?

My wife heard Simon Calder on the Beeb this morning (the rail traveller's Martin Lewis).

He took ^100 into a booking office and said 'where can I go for this?'.  No advance (or 'advanced') fares nonsense, just walk on.  Why should people have the inconvenience of spending hours on the computer planning journeys?

In England he could travel 100 miles (so forget your 16p!!).  In Scotland he could go 300 (interesting, how?). In France he could could go from Paris to Marseilles, 700 miles.  In Italy he had a problem finding an internal trip that expensive but eventually got Milan to Palermo (!!!!!) including the ferry.

If fares are reasonably priced, all the complication of special deals become unnecessary.

By the way, the advance fare deals of 16p per mile do not stack up against the car if more than one person is travelling in the car.  Also do not forget the door to door convenience and lack of extra cost of doing so.

walk into Penzance ticket office and you can get all the way to london AND back for ^101  about 600 miles = 16.8p - not far off.

650 miles if you go via Bristol Temple Meads!

It certainly makes for a useful comparison if you're wondering where to "railhead".  Here are the (anytime single) fares from the Berks and Hants line into London Paddington.   I've added Westbury -> Waterloo for people travelling to the South Bank - slower, but may save the tube.

Taunton 109.50 / 156 miles - 70.2 p/mile
Castle Cary 93.50 / 125 miles - 74.8 p/mile
Westbury 37.60 (via Salisbury) 76.00 (via Newbury) 87.50 (any Route) / 110 miles
   34.18 p/mile (via Salisbury), 69.1 p/mile (via Newbury), 79.5 p/mile (any route)
Pewsey 51.50 / 93 miles - 55.4 p/mile
Bedwyn 30.50 / 75 miles - 40.7 p/mile
Newbury 27.00 / 62 miles - 43.5 p/mile
Reading 21.50 / 42 miles - 51.2 p/mile

I took a train from Lyon to Avignon in the late 1970s. The distance in kilometres was printed on the ticket, but IIRC, SNCF left the maths to me.

Bristol TM to Severn Beach and back, around 27 miles for ^3.00, is just over 11p per mile.

What - walk on and return when you like, no restrictions?  If so please confirm and I will write to Calder.  Mind you, this begs the question - are walk on fares in huge variance around the country?  I genuinely thought that walk on fares were standard wherever you went on NR.  As you can tell, walk on fares are a non-issue for me to date, as I would assume that I could not afford rail travel, even though we have a SRC each.  (I hope that one is on the list of abbs.)

That's the SSR. Which has a restriction of: 2X

So valid from 0640 from PNZ.

EBrown, I'm sorry SSR was in the list, but not 2X.  What does that last mean please, (is it two months, two days?) and what does a single ticket cost?  That was the comparison being made by Calder (say I don't want to return but am on a round trip, for instance).

If a SSR is cheaper than a return, what is the FGW doing selling singles, when one could get returns cheaper?

An SSR is a Super Off Peak return. Valid outward on the day of travel printed any time after 06:40, return with in a month, not valid Mondays-Fridays leaving London Paddington before 10:03 or between 15:10 and 19:01. A Super Off Peak single with the same restrictions is ^58.50. 2X is the restriction code, it gives details on what trains the ticket is valid on.

Thanks SS.  So neither fare conforms to the conditions set by Calder.  These are, remember, one walks into a station and says ticket to Z.  Clerk sells you ticket, you walk onto platform and get train to Z.  FTN gets to Severn beach for ^3 but one has to buy a return apparently.  How about just going to Severn Beach?  In fact I just looked it up and it's ^2.

Before I write to Mr Calder, does anyone know whether straightforward single tickets are not priced at a standard walk on fare price?  Judging from examples on this thread, there seems to be no standard price?

Evening peak restrictions to the far South West are different I believe, only the 1703 Pad - Pnz is considered a 'peak' train. (obviously if you went via Bristol the restrictions would apply)

Correct, but SSR's are still only valid from 1901 onwards.  1703 is only "Peak" West-country train, 1803 is peak through to Exeter - SVR's are then valid beyond.

Well it depends on what time he goes in the ticket office. If you walk in to Penzance ticket office at 0950 for the 1000 to London Paddington and ask for a single you'll pay ^58.50. If you want to catch the 0505 you'll pay ^137.50 though.

So there is no example above that disputes Simon Calder's example, except Severn Beach (???), and that even standard singles are priced all over the place.  I picked this up today.

http://www.seat61.com/uk-europe-train-fares-comparison.html#.UOWeTtc4Wyd

cited by Railway Eye

http://railwayeye.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/so-just-how-expensive-are-uk-rail-fares.html

 as confounding the Calder exercise.  In fact of course it does not (just look down the list to the 'bought on the day' comparison).  Not only that but notice how the ATOC people play around with peak travel prices whereas the continental cousins do not. 

Super Guard has already pointed out problems of the 'peak' rules even with the non-complying examples given by colleagues.  What a nightmare and no wonder only those who do not look at cost, or those who don't have to, on expenses, would be daft enough to walk into a railway station and buy a 'to go' single ticket, except for local journeys where perhaps LA subsidies are operated (is that what is happening with Severn Beach?).  No wonder Mr Hammond said the trains are a rich man's extravagance.   >:(   >:(


Edited to enable links. bignosemac

I'm not quite sure what these conditions Simon Calder has set. I suspect there are plenty of fares you can find which are under 16p per mile though. Walk-up fares do vary wildly depending on the route, largely for historical reasons. The Cotswold Line for example has lower walk up fares because it does not have any advance fares available. The fares system is largely what was inherited from BR when it comes to peak time restrictions and the small difference between single and return fares. FGW did lower long distance single fares to London to a little over half the price of a return when they introduced a third tier of pricing, with Off Peak prices renamed to Super Off Peak with Off Peak fares introduced between Super Off Peak and Anytime. The main change under privatisation has been the increase in long distance walk-up fares with the introduction of many more cheap Advance fares. The ever increasing walk-up fares are by and large a government policy decision though, they want the railway to contribute more to its own costs with reducing public subsidy. Achieving this means fare rises as the alternative of service cuts wouldn't be acceptable, of course there is an increasing focus on efficiency gains now. Fares are never going to reduce until the government decides as a matter of policy that the railways are a public service that requires a level of subsidy, which is effectively the decision taken in other European countries which allows for lower fares.

The Severn Beach line is subsidised, but not heavily. It was dying a death prior to 2007, with an irregular and often unreliable service that saw huge gaps at times of the day between services. It was not practical to use it to commute. In 2005, a report for Transport Minister Alistair Darling (by Atkins!) proposed ripping it up for a BRT route. FOSBR and others expressed strong views to the local councils, and in 2007, Bristol City Council agreed a subsidy of ^450,000 pa for 3 years, to provide at least 3tp2h, from the start of the new timetable in May 2008. For the first time ever, a Sunday service to Avonmouth was run. The line was designated a Community Rail Service.

A very simple zonal fare structure was put into place, with two zones, one either side of Clifton Down. Travel in one zone costs ^1.50 single, ^2.00 return, and for two zones - the whole line from SVB to BRI - the cost is ^2.00 single, ^3.00 return, with a weekly unlimited pass costing ^9.00. This meant a rise in some fares between one or two stations, but a substantial cut in most fares. It is considerably cheaper than bus travel over the same routes, as well as much faster. Severn Beach has one bus each way daily into Bristol centre, taking an hour, and costing ^7.50 return. There are 11 trains from Severn Beach (24 from Avonmouth), taking 35 to 40 minutes.

Whether the intention was to prove that even with subsidy, the line was not profitable, I do not know. However, the opposite happened, and passenger numbers soared. From 2010, with support from South Glos DC, the Sunday service was extended to Severn Beach. In 2011, the council was able to reduce the subsidy to ^200,000, even with an extra evening service from September 2012. The line is so busy at peak times that conductors can't get to everyone. As only Temple Meads has gated platforms, many journeys are freebies. Advance ticket sales would provide additional revenue, possibly even turning an operating profit, but the only TVM along the route, at Clifton Down, was in a sorry state the last time I saw it.

The future looks bright. The subsidy can be seen as pump-priming rather than propping up, and the intention is for any subsidy for off-peak and Sunday service to transfer to DfT to provide. As a test-bed for new commuter services, it has proved its worth, and has done much to kick-start the Greater Bristol Metro project. The first new railway station in the Bristol Area for 17 years should be open this year at the Portway Park and Ride. It isn't scheduled for electrification under the GWML project, but once all the planned works around the country are done, FOSBR, Severnside Community Rail Partnership and others will try to get it done in the next tranche, I'm sure.

Thank goodness for the stink kicked up in 2005. I am not a fan of BRT, and what WEP are proposing to waste on the Bristol area BRT projects would keep the Severn Beach line running for a thousand years. It just goes to show what you can do when you try to price people onto rail rather than pricing them off it, at least for local travel.

FTN

Totally agree with last para.

SS if you looked back over the thread you would have seen that the issue is 'walk on' fares.  In other words just walking into a station and buying a single for a destination 100 miles away.  As FTN points out, in Bristol (and a lot of local journeys elsewhere) it can be cheap, very cheap. 

As the examples above shewed, it's a different story for inter city.  FTN and others have pointed out the politics of this situation but that is of zero interest to the punter, especially when there is competition from both road (coach and car).

I don't think rail has to compete with air as this is only usually when there is substantial seawater between or the distances are well over 100 miles.

I've just looked up Bristol to Paddington and it's ^93.50 or (strangely) ^96.50 with no apparent reason why they differ.  That is huge, I mean huge.  No ordinary person on average wage could contemplate paying that.  In fairness there was no difference in the peak, as far as I could detect.  So I then discover that according to which train I chose outside the peak I could go for ^30.50.  That's better but the coach would be competitive I suspect.  I hope I may assume that the clerk, when confronted with a passenger outside the peak, would not sell a ^96.50 ticket but would always sell the cheapest?  Still roughly 25p per mile though.  My wife and I went from Rome to Salerno first class by fast train for that on a Friday at 1630!!

^93.50 is the Anytime Single to London Terminals route: Any Permitted. ^96.50 is the Anytime Single to Zone U1* London (ie any underground station in Zone 1) route: Any Permitted.

It still depends on the time of course. A single from Penzance to London after 0640 seems like good value at ^58.50 to me. By the most direct route (305 miles) it comes out at about 19p per mile. A single from Penzance to Totnes after 0840, 102 miles in distance is even better value at ^16.40, around 16p per mile. The cost of walk up tickets does vary across different routes. I don't know if there are similar situations across Europe or not. It's hard to tell how reliable a comparison of fares across Europe is if all we are presented with is the findings but not the research and methodology behind it. There are cheaper and more expensive routes in this country, and there may well be in Europe to. It would be useful to know what routes were chosen to compare and why. I've no doubt that there are plenty of routes in this country that are more expensive than those in Europe, but there are probably some which are cheaper too.

This is where FGW must take some credit, in making the single a lot cheaper than the equivelent return rather than just a pound or so as from other TOCs

I'll start with France, and in particular Paris Gare de Lyon to Nice Ville, 577 miles. Cost is ^98.50 to ^118.00 1-way, or about 17p to 20.5p per mile. My source is Voyages-SNCF.com (http://www.voyages-sncf.co.uk/). Given the journey is long distance between a capital city and a leading resort for very rich people to ponce around in, that seems good value.

Are season tickets in France the same sort of discount as in this country?

I've got one for 24p per mile...

Penzance - Wick via London and Thurso (Train calls at Thurso first)

^233.50 Super Off-Peak Single Route: VIA LONDON - Journey: Penzance - London - Edinburgh - Inverness - Wick = 972 Railway Miles (Or there abouts!) = 24p per mile!

A more expensive Anytime Single @ ^268.50 seemed to bar travel on trains via London, despite not showing a route restriction via london on WebTIS Booking Engines. (Maybe because the cheaper ^233.50 is via London only?) There is also an SOS route: VIA LONDON @ ^262. But as the booking only shows 4 trains as an option. The Super Off-Peak Single is valid on the same 2 the SOS is valid on... Perhaps rendering the SOS pointless?

All other journeys I could find averaged around 40p per mile even for journeys upto 250 miles for ^100 or less.

So why is the Anytime return from Swindon to Paddington 76p per mile? (^117 for 2 x 77 miles).

Indeed.  I looked up Rome to Salerno and it is over 150 miles.  The cost was ^33.50 (about ^27) and that was first class on a Friday departing from Termini at 1630 (in other words the peak of peaks).  So we are talking about 18p per mile walk on fare.  Now admittedly I did book it the night before to ensure getting a seat (it was rammed) and did so on the return, although it was a bit roomier and I needn't have done so.  Beat that for a standard, non-fiddling-about with peak discouragement or off-peak encouragement.  As Simon Calder pointed out, you need to go from the extreme north of the country to the outlying island of Sicily to spend anywhere near ^100.   (Our trip was in 2011 so perhaps a bit dearer now).  The Man in Seat 61 is expert on EU fares and would have pointed out any excuses for ATOC.  In fact, his article was meant to prove that Calder was wrong but did the opposite.

By the way, first class in Italy only costs one third more than second.

Or the Anytime Return from Westbury to Paddington via Newbury at 79.6p per mile. (^152 for 2 x 95^ miles)

Because the fare scales were re-jigged when the HSTs were initially introduced, with a premium fare payable for the premium, long distance routes.  Swindon is the first station out of the South East area, so you'll find lower fares into London from Bedwyn, Salisbury, etc, to the south, and from Oxford, Moreton-in-Marsh and Evesham to the north, and from Didcot to the east.

It's a bit ironic that these premium rate fares for fast new trains have remained for so long that they're still applied (with that same premium balance) to the same trains .... now amongst the oldest still running on the rail network.  


Yep ... HST premium again!

Je ne sais pas, mon ami, mais je crois <<Oui!>>

Well here is my European Rail Comparison. I'll take Spain as my example as I have some knowledge on parts of their railway. I'll also quote singles only for the ticket prices. I've converted the prices based on the exchange rate on: 05/01/2012 @ ^1 = ^0.82 / ^1 = ^1.23

Madrid Atocha or Charmartin* - Alicante - Approx 264 Miles - Quickest Method: Train. Cheapest Method: Drive.

Stock: Alvia Electric InterCity 155mph Tilting Trains

Trains Per Day: Monday, Saturday and Sunday, 7 Trains: Tuesday - Friday. Fastest Train: 3:11 (Except Saturdays) Minutes. Slowest Train: 4:11 (Saturday Only). Average Weekly Journey Time: 3:27.

Rail Fares on renfe.es website day before travel (Spanish Rail Operator): Turista (Standard Class) ^60.90/^49.53 - Preferente** (First Class) ^94.40/^76.78 One Way.

Madrid City - Alicante City by car: Via A-31 and AP36 (Latter is a Toll Motorway with Further Distance @ 268 Miles) 4:03 Or via A-31 and A-3 (No Tolls and Shorter Distance @ 260 Miles) 4:09. Times assume good road conditions.

Driving Cost: Based on an Average Distance of 264 Miles, a Vehicle doing 35 MPG and Fuel @ ^1 Per Litre: ^34.29

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Madrid Atocha or Charmartin*** - Murcia - Approx 250 Miles - Quickest Method: Drive. (Even on the "free" Motorway) Cheapest Method: Drive. >:(

Stock: Altaria Diesel Loco-Hauled InterCity 125mph Titling Trains

Trains Per Day: Monday - Friday, 2 Trains Saturday and 4 Trains Sunday. Fastest Train: 3:11 (Except Saturdays - 4:19) Slowest Train: 4:31 Mon-Fri Only (Saturdays: 4:22 and Sunday: 4:29). Average Weekly Journey Time: 4:21

Rail Fares on renfe.es website day before travel (Spanish Rail Operator): Turista (Standard Class) ^47.00/^38.23 - Preferente** (First Class) ^72.80/^59.21

Madrid City - Murcia by car: Via A-30 and AP36 (Latter is a Toll Motorway with Further Distance @ 254 Miles) 3:48 Or via A-30 and A-3 (No Tolls and Shorter Distance @ 247 Miles) 3:54. Times assume good road conditions.

Driving Cost: Based on an Average Distance of 250 Miles, a Vehicle doing 35 MPG and Fuel @ ^1 Per Litre: ^32.47

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Alicante - Lorca - Approx 90 Miles - Quickest Method: Drive! Cheapest Method: DEFINITELY THE TRAIN!!!

Stock: 3 Car Diesel Train with 1 WC - No Buffet/Trolley Refreshments Service. Refreshments available from Vending Machines and Small Bar at Murcia where a change of train is normally required.

Trains Per Day****: 10 Trains Monday, 15 Trains Tuesday - Friday, 9 Trains Saturday and Sunday. Fastest Train: 2:31 (Monday - Friday. Saturday and Sunday: 2:36) Slowest Train: 3:36 Saturday and Sundays Only (Monday - Friday 3:01). Average Weekly Journey Time which here doesn't tell the full story: 2:58 As the high majority of Monday - Friday Trains complete the journey in 2:36. Saturday and Sundays the figure is: 3:36

Standard Class Fare Alicante - Lorca: ^5.45/^4.44 (Prices correct as of March 2012 Haven't been back to Spain since then). No Preferente Class (First Class)

Standard Class Fare Murcia - Lorca is the same price as Alicante. Despite most likely needing to change trains at Murcia and you can only travel via Murcia when using Renfe Cercan^as Services. This is a bit on an anomaly as you can travel between Lorca and Alicante; a distance of 89 Miles. For the same price of 38 Miles between Murcia and Lorca OR 50 Miles between Murcia and Alicante.

Sussed it yet? Well Renfe Cercan^as use a Zonal Fares system similar to London Underground. Murcia is in Zone 1 whereas Alicante and Lorca are both in Zone 6 both at the opposite ends of the Zone. Similar to London Underground where it would be the same price for Zone 1 - 6 e.g. Upminster (Z6) - London Victoria (Z1) as it would be from Upminster (Z6) - West Ruislip (Z6) Where entry into Zone 2 for that journey would be a minimum (Changing at Shepherd's Bush, Gospel Oak and Barking OR Shepherd's Bus, Clapham Junction and Whitechaphel) but you're much more likely to use a service via Zone 1 where only a Change at Mile End would be necessary. In the real world I know you'd use a National Rail service for most of that example. But I was laying the example of the Fares Structure for the Alicante - Murcia - Lorca Route.

Alicante - Lorca by car: Via AP-7 1:33 Assuming good road conditions. My experience is you're looking at closer to 2 hours! Based on an Average Distance of 90 Miles, a Vehicle doing 35 MPG and Fuel @ ^1 Per Litre:: ^11.69

---

* Free Transfer from Madrid Charmartin - Madrid Atocha via Local Renfe Cercan^as (Change at Madrid Atocha - Station)

** - Includes: Complimentary Meal, Coffee and Chocolates, Drinks (Soft, Hot and Alcoholic), Refreshment Hot Towel & Newspapers. Also access to Renfe Club Lounges from the Departure Station ONLY and no entry until 2 hours or less until the booked train time. Yes they do enforce this one!

*** Ticket Valid for boarding at Madrid Charmartin (Starts Here) or Madrid Atocha (Calls at the Cercan^as Through Platforms - The InterCity Platforms are Dead Ends)

**** 1 InterCity Service runs Alicante - Lorca (Barcelona - Lorca Taglo Service). I have not included this train in this section. But it is the fastest train and requires no changes. Journey Time: 2:13 and Prices: Turista (Standard Class) ^23.20/^18.87 - Preferente** (First Class) ^30.70/^24.97 - On this train, First Class gives you little more than the benefit of a wider - reclining seat. Food/Drinks are available for purchase from the Buffet Car.

Here is a recent Dutch standard walk on single fare.
Schiphol Airport to Naarden (24 by road, about the same by rail) ^3.90 (^3.12).  Price per mile 13 pence.

By the way Schiphol is not pronounced 'Ship - oll'  but Skip-oll.  The 'k' should be given a gutteral 'clearing the throat' sound which is difficult to relate using phonetics.  Amazingly (and disgracefully) both the Schiphol Airport announcer and NS train recording announcer pronounces it correctly in her own language but not in English, on the basis, I suppose, that English (and German) speakers could think she was talking about somewhere else.

Hereford to London via the Cotswold Line, anytime single ^41.50, 150 miles (or thereabouts) thats 28p per mile. And, since it takes three and a quater hours it's only 22p a minute. Bargain.

Transport minister: Train fares are ^too expensive for me^ (http://www.londonlovesbusiness.com/business-news/london-transport/4637.article?)

He should've gone to Marylebone and taken advantage of a "Via High Wycombe" fare.  Very reasonably priced and can be used to Birmingham International (for the NEC) by changing at Banbury.

The original news piece is actually talking about seasons going up. I've just done the maths, and a season works out at about ^20 each way, or just over 16p a mile...