Great Western Coffee Shop

Before anyone shoots me down. I am aware of the extreme weather conditions that have plagued that South West over the past week or so. (Us IT Techie's do come outside occasionally ;) :D )

Anyhow. I've noticed that since this has happened, alot of trains have become rather messy and generally look like they need a bit of TLC. Now I'm aware the Cleaning of the trains is contracted out by FGW to a contractor and I have a few queries on this.

On the WSB - BRI corridor, the cleaning is general done "in service". The cleaners board the train and the Guard signs a paper sheet they have. They do the cleaning whilst the train is in service and then alights once completel. Am I to assume the paper sheet is for the contractor to know how much to give FGW a bill for and thus have the proof? Or is it an internal timesheet maybe? Perhaps neither are relevant but I have briefly seen one of the sheets and I am wondering how much resilience is built into it...

Take a look at WSB - BRI Corridor as the example. Regular trains are PMH - CDF and WEY - BRI (I've left out a number of WSB Terminators and other routes, equally relevant but not for the example i'm going to give). Now take a late running CDF service say by 108 Minutes. Lets assume a late running WEY - BRI service is going to pass through first. Now does the cleaner leave that one alone and take their "Booked" train i.e. CDF to do the cleaning. As that train is 108 Minutes behind, presumably they'll miss their next booked train which won't then get cleaned in the BRI - WSB Corridor if at all before arriving at PMH? If this really is the case then I can understand how some people come up with the "Tick a Box" lifestyle analogy.

If this is the system they adopt it's no wonder why I found 2C38 (23:20 BRI - FRO) in such a state last Thursday. (See YouTube links. Yes I know, a sad thing to do but I'd been sat on my backside all day and was bored so thought I'd press the camera button!)

Also I've noticed that specific trains have been running late, whereas others I catch which are normally very punctual have remained to be so and I've not been delayed. Here are 3 examples I've had recently all at BTH.

22:47 Bath Spa - London Paddington - Most days this week has been over 1 hour late, thus causing confusion when 2C38 shows up beforehand

23:19 (Starts PAD) Bath Spa - Exeter St Davids via Bristol Temple Meads. Most days this week has been upto 40 minutes late. Which incidentally causes 2C38 problems. Also this Friday just gone it was only booked on the Customer Information System to Bristol Temple Meads.

23:38 Bath Spa - Frome. This has only been up to 20 minutes late over the past week. But as the EXD train has also been late it's on a couple of occasions had to wait as 2C38 is the last connection from BTH down for stations to FRO. It is also a valid connection of normally an ample 19 minutes! Friday just gone it was not held despite being nearly , So I bet passengers on that train were delighted with replacement road transport ::)

Videos:

Class 158's in FGW land are two or three carriage units all of which (apart from a couple of odd-balls) have 3 toilets. In these films you get to see the state the train was in. 1 toilet was locked out of use, the next was so bad that not even I was capable of filming it and the third is in the first film... But I think the light is more of an issue. I filmed the centre and rear carriages as the front coach had other passengers and I didn't particularly fancy a conversation.

Part 1: http://youtu.be/jLGiRSq8fzU (http://youtu.be/jLGiRSq8fzU)
Part 2: http://youtu.be/kewLucJ3Nwg (http://youtu.be/kewLucJ3Nwg)

Apologies in advance if you decide i've lost you 3 minutes of your life........ ::) 8) :o ;D

Thursday morning the TM of my usual train (0746 NLS to PAD) apologised for the state of the train, and explained it had not been able to get back to the depot the previous night, (it had run a very slow and late 1915 BRI to Taunton, which was certainly in a bit of a state when I alighted). He said that the train crew had done their best to clean it before departure.

That struck me as a very can-do attitude. No matter that it's not their job, under the circumstances they did their best to provide the best possible service.

It doesn't help that the number of bins on HST's is very limited particularly in standard, so even if people want to discard their rubbish properly, they can't. That and the proliferation of free newspapers are contributory factors  in my opinion.

All of the mess on your videos is caused by the dirty, animal like people who seem to travel on the west fleet.

As someone who has to work in it, both on the West fleet units and the HSS, some of the things you find when you open toilet doors is vile and i cannot understand how any civilised human being could create such 'mess'.

Feceses piled up above the height of the toilet pan, used tampons/sanitary towels, aswell as the 'usual' obvious piles of vomit and other bodily fluids on weekend services - it gets to a point where you wonder why it is worth fitting nice new taps/basins/pans and tolilet seats (as they were when refreshed) if they are just going to be vandalised and abused.

Doing pick-ups, emptying bins and changing bin bags and replenishing consumables such as hand soap, hand towels and toilet roll is perfectly achievable on depot or in traffic, but no staff, on-board or depot based should not be expected have to deal with the daily disgusting state that the PASSENGERS leave the trains and in particular the toilets in....

I spend most of my working day under frame of units/HSTs, working in residual human waste that is dropped out of the toilet pipes, but you could not pay me enough to handle some of the things that minimum wage MITE contractors do on a nightly basis.

Totally agree with sprog's post

Well the human being *is* an animal so perhaps Sprog's first sentence is an unintended insult to other species. 

To achieve the toilet conditions described, there has to be a structural problem in terms of what service is being provided.  The same people travel by air.  Perhaps study of how facilities are managed by airports and airlines could help here?  No such appalling scenes as Sprog describes is evident at airports and planes.

For instance, it was quite clear to me on my last visit through Lulsgate that it was manned by immigrants (mostly EU, going by accents of people I engaged in conversation - yes I talk to the people who serve me) and probably on the same wage levels.

So it's not to do with quality or education or attitudes of staff.  Could it be to do with staffing levels and frequency of cleaning?

My last SWT trip saw people continually going up and down the trains collecting up rubbish, just like the stewardesses do on the plane.

This site, that I have just discovered. is a mine of information and insight to managers so I do hope they read it.

Thanks for the compliment, swrural, and I can assure you that this forum is read by First Great Western managers - up to and including Director level.  ;)

I know, because I draw it to their attention.  ;D

What ever happened to the principle of specifying station names in full on first reference before using abbreviations (although I still found this post interesting)

Yeah - I'll be seeing thetrout next Saturday and I'll give him a gentle nudge.   I'm wondering how Tal-y-Cafn comes into it myself  ;)

BRI - Bristol Temple Meads
BTH - Bath Spa
CDF - Cardiff Central
EXD - Exeter St Davids
FGW - Fishguard and Goodwick
FRO - Frome
HST - High St (Glasgow)
NLS - Nailsea and Backwell
PAD - London Paddington
PMH - Portsmouth Harbour
SWT - Slaithwaite
TLC - Tal-y-Cafn
WEY - Weymouth
WSB - Westbury

It was the NLS that stumped me.

Had no idea that FGW ran a direct service from Nailsea to Paddington.

Sounds like they may lose it come electrification...

2 hour commute each way, add say 15 mins each end, that's 5 hours per day, or about 2 months per year of 'awake' time... :o

Sorry. I've referenced those stations so many times in the past that I forget to reference them on each occasion. (Although some I did in my defence!) My bad... Duly noted I'll make sure to reference them in full in future ;) :)

thetrout must remember that his memory for acronyms and various other things isn't always as up to scratch as everyone elses (and that is by no means a dig at anyone. My memory is very good for things such as this ;) )

TLC wasn't a station abreviation... Surely you got what I meant... :-X TLC = Tender Loving Care..........

---

Anyway I found Sprogs post most interesting and sadly I have to agree. Having the medical condition which results in frequent toilet breaks (often as many as 3 in an hour :( ). I myself cannot bring myself to remember the state I have found some toilets in on trains and at stations.

Don't be fooled that the toilets in First Class are any cleaner either... Common misconception... Some of the passengers have the attitude of and I generalise majorly here but...... "I'm loaded and as I pay someone to clean up my mess at home and work, someone else can do it here on this train as thats why they pay cleaners"

Infact, when I was at residential college we had a student in the same year whos attitude was just that. Annoying thing was he was a Day student and didn't live onsite so whenever he 'made a mess' it was never found until he'd gone home and then us students ended up dealing with it >:( He was caught at it one evening by his worst enemy (not me ;) ) and needless to say it was no longer going to be a problem!

My toilet horror stories (and sadly there are far too many) are too much of an occurance to want to complain about each time and Sprog has hit the nail on the head. The toilets do get vandalised far too often and i've lost count of the amount of times i've found a seat not attached to the pan, Toilets out of sanitary supplies etc, Tissue placed in sinks and then filled so it goes all over the floor.

But it comes down to the folk that use them and leave it in that condition. Chris Moyles said on National Radio a few years ago he would never put his backside on a train toilet seat... Well kinda says it all really and sends the wrong message.

And don't get me started on GreaterAnglia or c2c Train Toilets... No... Just. No. >:(

(c2c have one toilet per 4 car unit and every time I catch a train with them it's always broken or completely violated... I sometimes wonder if the staff deliberately leave it in the hope that it will "Become someone elses problem" Oh it does alright... The Passengers who would respect the facility and are desperate but unwilling to use it! >:(

Edit: Typo corrected >:(

Apologies, that was me.

I only go half way to Swindon, which is an hour and five mins door to door - much more palatable.

I think there will be an uproar if the North Somerset stations lose their direct services come electrification, not least because the HST's soak up a huge number of passengers going to Bristol. Bi-mode beckons I guess.

Incidentally the Nailsea service to Paddington has been around since the early 70s, so hardly a recent innovation (before anyone reopens the debate about the trend to add more calls to HSTs). 

We used to have a direct Cross Country service to Aberdeen, too ... see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3385.0  :D

Perhaps similar to the Pylons from the proposed Hinckley Point C?

And the non approved and fiercely opposed Conveyor (sp?) Belt from Stancombe Lane Quarry to Flax Bourton Rail Yard... in the Late Nineties / Early Noughties ::) :o

It is regretably true that a significant minority of passengers leave trains, and in particular train toilets in an appaling state.

However some of the instances refered to above, are at least partly the fault of the railway.
Take the example of the toilet pan filled with s**t. Presumably the first few passengers to leave it like that did at least attempt to flush away the waste, without succes (due to lack of water or other fault)
Even if a passenger ommited to flush, then the next one would presumably try.

Therefore a toilet in the state described is largely the fault of the TOC (or the fault of a sub contractor whom they appointed)
Why did it not flush ? Mechanical failure, then fix it. Frequent mechanical failure=defective design, flush toilets have been around for 100 years now so it should be possible to design a reliable and idiot resistant unit.

Lack of water for flushing ? then fill the water tank ! Frequent lack of water=tank too small or intervals between fillings are too great.


Retention tank full ? then empty it !

Retention tank regularly full in service=then either the tank is too small or the intervals between emtpying are too great.

One must expect the odd problem when trains are away from their proper places for servicing due to bad weather etc.
However regular disgusting problems such as described suggest a lack of maintenance, lack of cleaning, or defective design.

There is no excuse for passengers adding needlesly to mess, dirt or filth.
But in the case described of an overfull WC pan, what are they meant to do ?
Pull the emergency alarm ? Use the floor ?

I'm not so sure all the same people travel by air. For starters airlines would reject people if they turn up in such an intoxicated manner as some people are on train services I've observed, especially at the times of day the Poster mentions.

I'm not so sure all the same people travel by air. For starters airlines would reject people if they turn up in such an intoxicated manner as some people are on train services I've observed, especially at the times of day the Poster mentions.
[/quote]

That is a very fair point.  A lot of the issues mentioned by TheTrout (Dominic) were undoubtedly connected with inebriation (see his recent Youtube videos).  I can't see how drunken passengers are easily spotted before boarding, as they are on planes and airports.  But they are the same people and ask any steward working on low cost.

Also, during this current weather-generated fiasco, it is pointless to bring forward examples.  However, as there are no trains running, perhaps local crews of operations staff could be set in to deep clean train sets and try an get a new atmosphere  - I always think there is a level of cleanliness that promotes cleanliness.

Incidentally, at Lulsgate Silver Parking, a group of dissatisfied passengers complained in our feed-back about the state of the loo (only one per sex believe it or not) and there was a marked improvement.  So all here who love our railways should write to the manager (I have met Julian Crow and the MD, forgotten his name) and they are good people.

Mark Hopwood.  ;)

Bear in mind that those videos were taking on a Thursday night. Invariably this is 'student night' in Bath. The train wasn't as busy as I've seen it. But the state I found the same train working (2C38) again on the Friday was even worse. On Saturday I didn't take the train, actually got the Bus as where I was going was much closer to a Bus Stop than the Station. Also a few of the Taxi Drivers in Frome are off road due to defective vehicles or not wanting to go out of town at night, so getting a taxi the past week or two hasn't been easy.

I also thing broadgage brings up a few good points. I do think it's partly the fault of the TOC for not maintaining the toilets with water often enough or mainly by staff not locking them out of use when such things occur. I have known some trains to be held at stations for a few moments because all the toilets are broken or out of water. It's particularly common on football trains as you'll often find the toilets get vandalised.

Also even if a passenger reports the state of the toilet to a member of staff, It's worrying about the amount of staff that don't do anything about it or as I said "What for it to become someone elses problem". I have reported issues to staff r.e. toilets to multiple TOC's and have found the amount who don't do anything about it is rather high. Take an example of when I reported a waterless toilet to Southeastern a few weeks ago. I ended up catching the same unit back about an hour or two later. It was very clear that the condition of the toilet had changed. For the worse. It certainly wasn't filled at Hastings as I was told it would be. I also fail to see how a toilet tank can completely empty and still be in a worse state in the distance of about 10 miles. Got a ^5 voucher out of Southeastern though after a written complaint ::)

On one occasion during the 2008 Rugby world cup (Believe the match was Wales vs. New Zealand) I was coming back to Trowbridge from Cardiff Bay on a single 150 Unit. I asked the guard if he could check on the occupant of the toilet just after Bristol Temple Meads as they'd been in there a while and I was full't'bursting (Occupied since atleast we accidentally stopped at Pilning ;) ). The guard actually told me it had been locked prior to departure from Cardiff Central because the pan had been filled with paper towels >:( I was somewhat biwildered when the guard offered me an empty beerglass and privacy of the walkway between the vestible between the drivers compartment. (Evidence suggests this wasn't a joke sadly) I declined and said I would alight at Bath Spa and use the toilet there and get the next train. It was decided by Guard and Driver that the train be held at Bath Spa for a train toilet break for the benefit of all pax. Bath Spa Station Staff also got control to update the CIS that no toilets were on the train :D

However I can say that if anythings FGW units are a state, perhaps take a ride on a GreaterAnglia train. That is an eyeopener. I often end up on the midnight-ish departs from Liverpool Street to Southend Victoria. On a Friday or Saturday that is a really bad train to catch. Try walking from First Class in Coach 1 to the toilet in Coach 3. You'll find youself stepping over: Abandoned Kebabs, Vomit, McDonalds/KFC/Burger King Foodstuffs, Newspapers, Split Drinks, More Puke, Sleepers (Who may have fallen on the floor) who have missed their station (As their alarms are going off and they're still asleep) etc. Get to the toilet and you'll wish why you'd bothered. One occasions it's usable. On others its not.

I have to take my hat of to the Southend Victoria Cleaners as they seem unsurprised at the state they find the trains in when it arrives and are often seen ready, gloved up and wielding a set of waste bags. I also notice they always tank the toilets when they arrive. I guess it's not as difficult for them to do though as they nearly always receive the same type of trains. Class 321's and on the morning peaks, 2x Class 315's which normally arrive the night before via an ECS movement from Shenfield to Southend Victoria (The latter has no toilets at all!)

Indeed it was he (who it was).  Thanks.

Really?!?! >:( >:( >:(

(http://b800b28968f380badea5-cc9074a6778b0478e6a17df6690d8cbe.r82.cf3.rackcdn.com/toilet-disaster.JPG)

Well that's put me off my cocoa!  :'(

Also, just to answer the Mitie piece of paper originally mentioned, on the 1636 PAD-EXD which forms the 1955 EXD-PAD, a Mitie cleaner gets on at Taunton and goes through cleaning/reserving etc.  I think the paper we sign just confirms to Mitie (and FGW if required) that the cleaner has done his/her job.