Great Western Coffee Shop

Printed in read on the rear of the ticket I was issued - on the train - this evening.

[rant]Why the **** put such a notice that comes across as very threatening when you're issuing tickets from a station, dear TOC, where you haven't offered us any chance to buy tickets?[/rant].   

That's only part of the notice ... the other two sentences are equally frightening but at least they contain the words "where ticket or permit issuing facilities are available" in the first case, and "if ticket issuing facilities are available" in the second.

I have a feeling that it's a DfT requirement for TOCs that operate a penalty fares scheme: in all honesty I have entirely lost track of FGW's penalty fares schemes, or lack thereof, outside the Thames Valley, but I think this is the reason for the warning on the back of the Avantix ticket stock.

As an aside, SWT and other TOCs can issue a "penalty fare warning" to passengers who could have been charged a PF but on the day encountered a commercial guard (able to sell tickets but not raise a PF) rather than an RPI: it's a common stock Avantix issue drawing attention to the red print on the back.

This isn't anything new. I nearly always see this on any tickets I purchase on board the train. I can see how it's a bit concerning though. If you take Bruton as an example:

No Ticket Office, No TVM or PERTIS Machine and it's NOT a Penalty Fares Station. Yet any guard who sells you a ticket on board you a guaranteed to get a ticket with that message on the reverse.

I've not had it printed on the back of tickets I have purchased from stations unless it was a member of staff holding an Avantix which can happen if the station is very busy or you are the wrong side of the barrier ;) :o

You even get this message printed on tickets when you are buying things like Weekend First or Gold Card 1st Supplements which, the former, you cannot buy before boarding anyway. The latter you can only get from a Ticket Office or on board the train if the Ticket Office is closed.

I personally think though, that WF buy onboard only policy contradicts the message for passengers who have every intention to pay the upgrade but the signs say penalty fares are chargeable when: "Travelling in First Class Accommodation with a Standard Class Ticket" ::) :o >:(

This is the Stock grahame is referencing if anyone is confused... ::) :-\ :-X

(http://b800b28968f380badea5-cc9074a6778b0478e6a17df6690d8cbe.r82.cf3.rackcdn.com/RSP9299PEN-STOCK.JPG)

Edit fixed picture URL and added below text. thetrout

If anyone is struggling to read the writing on the back of the ticket. Here is the picture in full size at the below link (2.4MB so might take a while on a smartphone over GPRS ;) )

http://bit.ly/ZcVyxA

Oh the irony. I have the exact same ticket stock. Issued by an: Authorised Collector on a train during an ticket check.

On Friday I played the 'Oh but the journey planner said I could (and produced evidence)' game on a ticket from London Victoria to London Waterloo via Slough (Ticket marked U12* LONDN to LONDON TERMINALS, Route: +ANY PERMITTED).

As it happened I found possibly the kindest RPI ever who despite refusing to accept I was right, issued me an excess fare between Paddington and Slough (^5.50 - even offering the railcard discount). Anyway, I will be applying for a refund from FGW. Perhaps BNM will be kind enough to offer some advice on how to word that.

---

The ticket is, I believe a requirement of the penalty fare rules that the PF scheme is advertised widely. I think the RSP 9299/PEN stocked recently changed from a generic warning that didn't reference the authorised collector.

Well, that particular routeing is most interesting and is, as you say, very much gaming the system. But it is perfectly legitimate to follow the journey planner from National Rail Enquiries.

As for the refund, I'd simply stick to the facts. You were using a journey plan from the definitive public source for rail fares information - National Rail Enquiries, and you bought the recommended ticket for the journey uyou wished to make.

This is probably one of the best routing irregularities... ;D

(http://b800b28968f380badea5-cc9074a6778b0478e6a17df6690d8cbe.r82.cf3.rackcdn.com/IMG_0917.PNG)

The Penalty fare warning clearly states If travelling from a Penalty Fares station..... You weren't so what's the problem? It has to be there for when tickets are sold from PF stations and it is totally impractical to have 2 lots of ticket stock.

And how is Joe Public going to know what a Penalty fare station is?  The only indication at the station at which I joined that you may board the train without a ticket is a notice board 100m from the station which includes a sentence to that effect with a great deal of other information.

When I bought an advanced ticket from a member of staff, I was handed an extra card reminding me that it was only valid on the booked train. Couldn't such a card be handed out (perhaps printed on the same stock?) to people who do break the rules, rather than handing out threats to all and sundry at smaller stations?   What's "clear" to members of staff and seasoned travellers is not "clear" to others - perhaps newcomers to using rail, who are frighetened by such warnings; they make even seasoned travellers like myself a bit nervous.

I'm travelling from a penalty fare station this evening, back to Melksham on the return half of that same ticket. And anyone who checks my ticket can read that threat, see that I joined at a PF station, and may be left thinking "what a naughty boy" ... sometimes the rail industry's systems really don't help encourage people to use trains, do they? Rather, they cast aspersions over their most faithful of users and supporters!

I'd agree with that. However, I would instead turn the issue on its head and simply make every station a "penalty fare" station.

In other words, do away with this obviously divisive and confusing scheme altogether and simply make it absolutely clear that fare dodging will not be tolerated anywhere on Britain's railways.

Theoretically he'll know by the lack of the yellow Penalty Fare warning posters - which are an essential part of the scheme, with a format laid down by DfT. There are sometimes complaints that they are not visible enough though that's not my experience.

http://geographyphotos.photoshelter.com/image/I0000bP0hR7U3L7w

At my local (SWT) station the text explicitly informs you that the scheme applies to SWT and SN but not to FGW.  I suppose your basic question is should there be a 'negative' poster at all stations outside PF schemes?

Paul

I am not interested in the slightest in the ins and outs of all this (and on other parallel threads here) and am a 'twice a year' passenger at the moment.  If I got on a train, and the station had a closed booking office and some jobsworth started telling me about a fine, I will become a 'nil' passenger from that point on.  We have two cars....

It's all going easy for the railways at present, but a backlash will build up just like it did in the 50s. 

Do any of you remember the jobsworth attitudes then on public transport? 

Bus conductors dinging the bell just as you were seen running for the bus stop, porters sneering as you fumbled to find your ticket.

They will pay, unless they get a grip on this nonsense.

Bye then.

Very unlikely to happen: the Conditions of Carriage provide you with absolute protection if there is nowhere you can purchase a ticket where you begin your journey. If the ticket office is closed and there is no ticket machine, you are absolutely entitled to pay the fare on-board that you would have paid at a ticket office. If there's a ticket machine that sells the ticket you need then you must buy it, or failing that a ticket to *somewhere* as evidence of where you started your journey: this must then be "cashed in" at the first reasonable opportunity for the ticket you need.

Penalty fares are a DfT requirement in various different franchises, and not simply a case of TOCs throwing their weight around. The basic principle is very simple: if you can buy a ticket at the station where you join the train, you must do so. If you can't, you may buy on board.

vacman, that's a little bit harsh. Please play nicely. swrural is perfectly entitled to his or her opinion, and I have to confess I have a certain sympathy with the underlying sentiment, even if the "jobsworth" stuff was perhaps a little heavy handed.

The fact remains, if an occasional traveller enters a station to find no staff or vending machine available and is subsequently the recipient of dire warnings about fines or worse when they board the train, they aren't particularly likely to use the service again or indeed to recommend it to their friends. As a marketing tool it's about as effective as handing people free burgers and then following them into the pub and accusing them of theft later on. The bottom line is, you need to charge customers for the burgers BEFORE you hand them over. It can only be the vendor who's at fault, not the customer (or indeed the burger).

Then DfT rail is part of the problem not the solution as they encourage some TOC staff to do just that.


Yes very simple and if applied by reasonable minded people it works fine.  Its just they it is not always applied by reasonable minded people and uses the criminal law in a way that is contrary to modern principles of regualtory justice (see McRory principles http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file44593.pdf (http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file44593.pdf))

Yes, yet it doesn't in reality. The issue is, once you have a PF, you have to appeal. IPFAS are appalling, they tend to automatically reject your appeal unless there is exceptional cause.

Standard letter rejecting your appeal is sent every time it appears.

I couldn't agree more. They are the most useless bunch of I don't know whats that ever worked in an Office. I wrote a letter to them of behalf of a family member who received a Penalty Fare as a result of circumstances that were not strictly her fault but could have endangered her personal safety has she tried to buy a ticket.

In a nutshell a group of loitering yobs were smoking and drinking around the only ticket machine and she decided not to approach the Ticket Machine in the event she was harrassed, assaulted, mugged or worse. We've already seen in my post last week what can happen when you stop to sit down and eat some chips in a busy town... She decided to purchase on board. However no conductor was selling tickets (Turned out to be a DOO service after some Googling) and she ended up getting to the London Terminus before being able to purchase a ticket.

Now not only did she voluntary declare she had travelled First Class and wanted a First Class ticket but also asked for a Cross London Journey ticket of which she had a further hour to go. She ended up with Twice the Full First Class Single as far as London and was told to purchase a separate ticket for he cross London Journey. The RPI from my understanding was an officious git who then basically told her to sign the document or criminal record. She began to read the notice to make sure everything was correct and the RPI shouted: Very Simple, Sign there or criminal record. My Cousin then went a little mad at him and said she was checking the details were correct and what the terms and conditions were. (The former I'd say more important as I would be almost certain there would be a condition about false information) Anyway, it turned out the RPI got 2 things wrong which he refused to correct as and I quote: "Had too much to do" So she signed it with her signature and marked next to it "Signed Under Duress" Well the RPI went mad when she handed him back the form and said she was going to get a criminal record for signing the form in such a and I quote "Childish Manner".

IPFAS initially rejected the appeal sighting that she had not purchased a ticket and the tone of the letter seemed to suggest she was required to enter needless peril in order to forfill her obligations in purchasing a ticket. Whilst all this was going on it transpired that the ticket machine in question did not have an ability to take Card Payments at the time and a couple of weeks either side due to the Card Machine being removed due to, surprise, surprise, Vandalism!!!

She sent back another letter stating that she would see them in court written based on a few pointers from the NRCoC once we knew the card machine was broken. IPFAS did not respond despite having PoD. The TOC however did respond rather quickly. It actually seemed like someone had taken the time to write it by typing rather than a template. Also from the letter it is more than obvious that they had watched the CCTV from the station. As a result:

Penalty Fare Cancelled Indefinitely
Cheque Refund for the extra ticket she had paid rounded to the nearest higher pound for her onward Journey t'other side of London.
4x Complimentary First Class Tickets and a further cash good will gesture in the form of a Cheque.

1x Very happy but slightly bitter still cousin

It is further assumed the RPI in question meet his demise shortly afterward as she hasn't seen him since and was a regular feature apparently for infamy with the Night Revelers ;) ;D :D :P ::)

IPFAS however are still apparently chasing the PF despite her having written to them twice with a copy of the letter from the TOC. She declared she was withdrawing from all future discussion surround the particular case in her last letter... ::)

That story reinforces all I wrote back along.  I did not read the rude rejoinder that followed but it seems that vacman has the attitude of which I complained.  I hope he /she is not an employee.

Thankfully, I have not found other than wonderful, friendly and helpful service by all staff I have encountered on South West Trains, so it's no wonder they are so successful on the Exeter to Waterloo service.  They seem to charge people who don't have a ticket with no quibble or fuss from what I have seen.

The vast majority of staff are cheerful, helpful and don't assume guilt until innocence is proven.  As the OP of this topic, I should perhaps have added that the conductor who sold me a ticket was a real gentleman - "yes, of course I'll sell you a ticket" and no mention was made of penalty fares or anything of the sort in our conversation; my report was just that I had big red type on the ticket which I consider to be threatening and suggesting that I may have broken the rules. 

However, as many other posts point out (here and elsewhere), it's so easy when you're in a role of authority / enforcement to get lulled into the attitude of quickly assuming the worst of people and then looking for them to prove their innocence, or (worse) not giving them that opportunity.  And it's all too easy (and perfectly within the rules, I'm afraid) for staff to assume that their customer / passengers know all the regulations - lack of knowledge of the law is not, alas, a defence.  With the business we run that's a particular concern, with many of our customers travelling to visit us having English as a second language, and with little experience of the rail system.  Sometimes they'll get it wrong through lack of knowledge, other times they're scared off doing the legitimate because of all those frightening notices.  Goodness - I wish we had a sign at Melksham Station that said "You may join the train at this station (Melksham) without a ticket and buy one from the Train Manager" or on the departure screen against each train added "If you don't have a ticket, you may join this train and buy one from the conductor".  Shouldn't be beyond the technology ....

grahame makes an interesting point on assumptions.

The guilty until proven innocent isn't just applied to railways and fare evasion in my opinion.

IT Technicians adopts a similar position when a customer brings a computer to the technician. It is common practice and good Rapport to ask the customer whats wrong with it, what they were doing when it happened and if they changed anything/installed anything.

Now very often the customer will lie! You cannot believe them based on what they say because of this even if they are telling the truth. You can get a vague idea as a guide to start from and then it's up to you to decide how it's happened and whether the customer has been a bit silly or whether it was a genuine wear and tear failure.

Now you might ask, is the IT guy going to assume i'm an idiot and laugh at me behind your back. Well sadly, yes, yes we may do occasionally. But it's the same across any industry like Plumbing etc. The way I try to do it though is to educate the user to stop the problem happening again. I feel sorry for people who have problems with IT simply because they don't understand. We all have to start somewhere.

Now another thing is that in doing so we may open up an e-mail program for education on viruses and sending e-mails. Also if you've changed ISP's you'll probably need to change mail servers. Now contray to popular belief. I have no interest in your e-mails or your life behind a closed door or in your inbox.

I had a customer the other week where they had several online dating agency e-mails in their inbox. They tried to deny all knowledge of how they got there (It was obvious by this point that they were lying and their reaction when they came up spoke 1000 words. They were clearly an active member as the subject of one e-mail started with "Your Payment"........)

I'm not there to judge anybody for what they do on their computers etc and quite honestly I have my own life (in a callous way but true). I think that RPI's could adopt a similar principle by not being on the attack but perhaps passively explaining the issue and stepping up a gear as and when necessary. As obviously as seen in my other post in FP some people just can't drop the bone :-\

Here is another example from an ITV Program a few years ago. But I wonder if RPI teams also employ "The Switching Technique" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alK05vzszMA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alK05vzszMA)

Disclaimer: Way Beyond Fruity Language, Nudity and General Idiocy ensues. But this program was broadcast and I by no means hold the copyright and neither did I upload the Video to YouTube which I'd day has come from a questionable source :-\

Its also seems to be the way with many motoring offences. The registered keeper of the vehicle is guilty of many motoring offences, especially speeding and parking offences, unless they can prove they werent at the wheel.

I once received a parking ticket for a vehicle I was keeper for whilst it was meant to be in for an MOT, the council told me I'd best pay it, and then pursue the garage who was MOT'ing my car for the cost. Turns out one of the mechanics had taken it to get a Burger King and parked on double lines whilst they were in the BK getting lunch!.

I was in Taunton some time in September 2008 and was walking down East Reach from the town centre to go home.

I noticed across the road a police car pulling up with blue lights going just opposite the Esporta Gym. That section of road is ALL double yellow lines from the Traffic Lights down towards the Tesco Petrol Station.

They all bailed out and went into Scrummys (Kebab Shop) I assumed to deal with a fight. Oh no, not at all. All 4 officers were ORDERING KEBABS!!!

There was a Traffic Warden walking by who realised what was going on and very hastily gave the police car a ticket. Well when the officers came out food in hands their faces were a picture when they saw the ticket!

Not sure if the traffic warden did it as a joke or not though... ;D

Think the traffic wardens back in 2008 were police employees. I know they moved over in the last couple of years from being police employees to council employees. Probably a joke.

OMG how to make a mountain out of a mole hill! The truth is nobody reads the PF warnings anyway judging by the amount of people who I PF saing "We always buy a ticket on the train", so why should those people who cant be arsed to get to the station in time to buy a ticket, who have a "the rules dont apply to me" attitude be treated the same as the people who DO get there in time, DO have the foresight to buy a season ticket? Thankfully most of the decent passengers I see often comment on how lovely it is to see RPI's Penalty Faring the chancers who always seem to be late, always seem to sit right at the opposite end to the guard and 9 times out of 10 seem to get a free ride.

And what exactly are you doing PF-ing these 'chancers?' If an opportunity to purchase a ticket for the journey being made has been passed then shouldn't that be a Byelaw prosecution? If there's some evidence of intent then shouldn't that be a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution?

If these folk are getting away with it nine times out of ten, then it's time FGW stopped with the Penalty Fare nonsense for them. Nine journeys for free and one for ^20 or twice the single fare is a bit of a bargain and no disincentive for the 'chancers'.

Folk'll soon stop 'chancing' it if they face prosecution. With either an out of court settlement far greater than a PF or if the TOC so desires, hauling them in front of a magistrate. Strict liability for the Byelaw and it's a shoe-in for the win. RoRA for those who've shown intent in deeds or words and bang - criminal record.

Important note I'm talking about the 'chancers' here. Not the person who had no facilities at their start station or was unable to buy the ticket they wanted from a TVM either because it wasn't available or the TVM wouldn't accept their method of payment.

I hope we meet, when I don't have a ticket on a train and tell you that I always buy one on a train. It'll be fun, really it will.

There are only two people in revenue protection I currently like, one is your boss and t'other is an exceptionally kind man with the initials AM.

Who knows, maybe you'll get added to my list or not.

What do FGW guards say when passing through?  Do they say -' any tickets from (eg) Yeovil?'

I always wonder what happens when the Yeovil non-paying passenger just keeps stum.  On the other hand it is tiresome to be asked more than once to shew one's ticket.

On SWT (my normal line) they seem to be pretty cute.  The rather agresssive replies from Vacman shew that he is not to be trifled with (even on here!) and is thus also 'cute'.

Would it not be a good idea to fit seat backs with ticket holders so the passenger can shew his ticket by just plonking it there.  I always have my ticket in my top pocket and if the guard is coming through, I place it on the table so he doesn't have to ask.

If that was de rigeur, that would expose the non payer straightaway.  So ticket holders for backs of seats like the reservation holders.  Any good as a suggestion?

And what happens when passengers regularly fail to take their ticket with them after placing it in the seat back? Experience shows that rail travellers are a forgetful bunch.

Cue lots of passengers facing PFs or prosecution after they arrive at a gateline, revenue block or connecting service with no ticket.

An interesting suggestion, swrural, but I rather think it's unworkable, for several reasons (including the previous point).

There is no single format for tickets, for one thing: some people will have a standard stock card ticket, issued by a Ticket Vending Machine or staff with an Avantix machine, but others will have season tickets with picture identification, or discount railcards with identification (which must both be shown to be valid) and still others may have sheets of A4 printouts from purchasing advance tickets online, or travel vouchers, for example.

Also, season tickets with picture identification will include personal details, which I'm not sure passengers will want to have on display to all and sundry for the duration of their journey, rather than being produced only for the purposes of checking by authorized rail staff.

All good points, and I am just as likely to be one of BignoseMac's victims, (memory like a sieve). 

I try to search for things that would counteract the Steve Norris view of public transport, of which I reminded everyone a little while ago since I recently joined this site.  If anyone cannot remember it, I am sure a google search with 'drawbacks of public transport' and his name would fish it up.

In this case when I walk 5 yards to my car in the drive and go to X I do not have to shew anyone a ticket.  I don't have to go through the fuss of buying one either and I don't need to go through the unpleasantness of being suspected of criminality when trying to buy one on the train, because, unknown to the guard, the machine at my station was just vandalised.

This is the reason why I tried to come up with ideas to avoid this drawback of train travel.

You may disagree with me for saying this. But I think the analogies there are out of context but similar nevertheless:

On the one hand with the car: Yes you have the flexibility of getting in and driving off. But what about if you look at it like this:

Cars:

• Insurance: Finding the best price policy with everything you require. e.g. Third Party/Fully Comp
• Tax: Is the car in a Tax Band I can afford or is an amount I am comfortable paying - More Importantly, Did I remember to renew it when it was due
• Fuel: How much in fuel am I going to need this week - Have I got enough in the tank to drive that extra 100 Miles to the folks this week?
• Oil/Screenwash/Brake Fluid/Tyres etc: Is the vehicle road worthy, When am I due an oil change, Do I need new tyres, Did I top up the screenwash?
• Journey: How am I going to get from Banbury to Southampton tomorrow: Sat Nav? Perhaps I'll take the motorway, No Wait, Roadworks on the M3. What happens if I get lost on that dreaded B Road I might take if the A road is closed? Can I afford to be perhaps 10 minutes late to that meeting in Charlbury on the way?
• Sustainance/Comfort: Shall I have lunch in the Service Area on the way/Eat and Drive? How many times should I stop on the way for a coffee after a grilling 5 hour meeting all day? Should I break the journey in a Travelodge overnight? I had one too many coffees at Fleet Services, Need to stop for the toilet again!

All takes probably the same amount of time to sort out and keep the car roadworthy (and legal more importantly) than perhaps turning up at the station to buy your ticket. Here is another example:

Trains:

• Ticket: Do I want a First Class/Standard Class Ticket, Do I want to be able to travel any route or just via a specific station or TOC(s)? Do I want a sleeper berth if it's available? Shall I reserve a seat?
• Price: Am I happy paying ^168.00 for a StandardnAnytime Return from Bath Spa - London Paddington? What will be the overall cost including sustainance and onward travel?
• Cheaper Price: Shall I book in advance and limit myself to one train or perhaps a less flexible Ticket which is barred from certain trains? Is there an add-on to my ticket to cover onward Bus Travel or Zonal Rail/City Travel?
• Cheaper Price but I need to travel now/today: Can I excess my ticket as I need to get the 17:00 and not the 19:30 as the wife has gone into labour early? Or is it cheaper to buy a new ticket?
• Different Routes: Do I want to save myself a tenner (example) by going via Salisbury rather than Swindon?
• Onward Travel: Does the station have a suitable Bus/Coach/Ferry onto my destination? Could I Walk? Is there likely to be a taxi on the station rank? If not should I prebook or could I walk to another rank? Could the 16:30 get delay for 50 minutes and I keep the taxi waiting? Can I let them know if this happens e.g. Phone signal
• The Times/Connections: Is 10 Minutes enough time to change trains at Reading? Do I want to stop at Reading for an hour for lunch and can I do it? Do I have enough time to get the last bus to my housing estate? What backup do I have if I miss it?
• Onboard the train: Do I want to get a train with a Buffet Car, Hot Buffet Service, Restaurant, First Class, Sleeper, WiFi etc? the 20:03 is running 1 hour late but as the 20:34 doesn't have First Class and I have a First Class ticket shall I wait for the 20:03?
• Fellow Rail Users: Do I mind the possibility I could be squashed against the wall arm-pit to arm-pit? Could I want to sit in the First Class Lounge for 3 hours instead to get a quieter train by purchasing a First Class Single from Paddington to Ealing Broadway? but travel Standard Class back to Bath Spa? Can I put up with that obnoxious screaming kid in the Quiet Carriage? Can I guarentee I am going to be able to use the toilet? Is another passenger going to take umbridge with me because I offer them the window seat next to me rather than just moving up?

Both:

• Journey Time: Which is quicker: Drive or Catch the Train? It takes 30 minutes longer by rail but the line has a good punctuality rating so might I prefer not to drive? Vs. It's 30 minutes quicker by rail but it's known to be unreliable so shall I take the risk?
• Well Being: Am I going to find it more relaxing to drive or catch the train? Is the meeting at work going to be stressful enough I might not feel like I can drive home safely? Am I returning after dark? Am I going to feel safer driving after dark or catching the train after dark? Do I want to have a pint after that grilling meeting so therefore should I go on the train anyway?
• Ease of use: Is it easier to drive? Could I get lost? Or do I know the stations I need to change at and my way around?
• Delays: Can I afford to be 20 minutes late? Do I mind small delays say up to 10 minutes? Can I get my money back on the rail ticket if the train is 30 minutes late and I choose not travel and drive instead? What about the costs incurred in getting to the station e.g. Parking Costs/Bus Fare could I claim those costs back? or could I afford to risk losing them? Do I mind getting stuck in traffic for over an hour and wasting time and fuel? Can I claim off anyone for this delay?
• Accidents: What happens if I crash my car into a hedge or someone else? Is that going to have a big impact on my ongoing life? The train lurtches and I spill coffee down my clean white shirt before that job interview I'm travelling to. Or I slip over and break my leg in the Station Toilets. Can I cope with this on my own or should someone travel with me?

I know some of those are un-realistic or silly (Not saying though that they don't happen!) But when you look at it like that, is the car such a good option after all...? Particularly for us young'ns?

As an aside, I recall sitting down with my mum years ago and we worked out it was cheaper for me to buy on the day First Class Rail Tickets in most cases (bearing in mind I have a Disabled Railcard and a Bus Pass) than to get a car at the age of 18 and everything else associated with it. Consquently this is what I continue to do and will do so probably for the remainder of my life. I was told about 18 months ago by my Doctor that I will NEVER be able to drive! (Please contain your excitement that thetrouts bad luck will not be on the roads also ;) )

Oh come on vacman. I think that is slightly unfair. I agree with your latter points however.

In my case I cannot drive and have to rely on Public Transport. (Most commonly owned in Zummerset by the same parent company who owns the company you work for ;) )

Lets take the example I am travelling on the 20:22 departure from Frome Town Centre to Bath intending to get an onward train to Taunton. Would I be expected to check for roadworks along the bus route? Checking that every single day would be pretty mundane (Not lazy, more tedious I'd say?). Even so that doesn't elliminate the possibility that a driver crashing into the regular stationary vehicles in Norton St. Phillip. (Which regularly ends up causing delay and accidents do frequently happen there).

Are you saying that if I then got to the station late because the bus gets delayed that it is my fault?

Ok I could buy a ticket from the TVM's at Bath your right. But if I was making that journey from Bath Spa my ticket would not be able to be sold from a TVM ;)

Now can I ask you and please be honest three questions based on if you were working the train onwards to Bristol that I would catch having been delayed by that bus.:

1) If I approached you on the platform as the train was there and asked to buy a ticket from you for travel on your train, How would you process that? i) Tell me to get the next one? and cause me further delay as XC only run every hour to Taunton? ii) Allow me to board sell me a ticket? iii) Something else?

2) I boarded your train without a ticket because I was travelling First Class and you were dispatching from Coach A. Once Boarded I then went to find you to purchase a ticket. What process would you follow: i) Sell me a ticket ii) Penalty Fare me?

3) Same as above but I seated myself in First Class but had my railcard and payment method on the table at the ready. Also I knew the fare I require and it's associated cost.

And (IMHO) we need such a scheme - one that's practical.  "Practical", by the way, is different to something that the doubters who will be looking for problems because they're set in current ways.  ;)

Firstly - online ticketing and printing should give many more people the opportunity of being ticketed when they arrive at the station.  Cut the queues at the "pickup prebooked" TVMs, and allowing advanced ticket sales the previous day for passengers joining at stations without any vending facilities at all.

Second - a sign on each platform - "Join here if you haven't bought your ticket yet and tell the train manager as you do", and dispatch the train from that point.  That way, the train manager know who's looking for a ticket.  Could the volumes be handled?   Yes - by having internet fares a pound cheaper than TVM / Booking office tickets, and on-train tickets a pound more expensive than the TVM / Clerk (if available) or Internet (if not).

Thirdly - let PlusBus tickets be sold on the bus on the way to the station, perhaps with a much wider area.

It's quite likely (and intended  ;D ) that some of these things would bring social changes like more people using buses to the station, and the ability of the system to take an increase in passengers without lots more TVMs ...


I have to agree with thetrout that if you're making a journey with First Bus and connecting onto a First Train, and you allow good connection time, then it's immoral of the train operator to penalise you for missing your advance train or not having time to buy your onward ticket if you turned up at the bus stop at least 2 minutes prior to the advertised bus departure time.

Good ideas Grahame, unlike mine.

I won't answer Dominic' points about car vs train bus (a bit too long, although willing to).  In the end people vote with their wallet and their perceptions of value and convenience.  TheTrout can't, due to the reasons he helpfully supplied.  Understood.  I don't expect either of you are aware I was a champion for sustainable and socially inclusive transport.  Believe me, I do know how to play devil's advocate and do not wish to be disingenuous.

I just know only too well how fat old councillors who drive big cars view the subject we are discussing here, when they are asked to provide funding for better public transport facilities for those who cannot drive.

Don't be so sure to rule out your idea, swrural.    I don't know if you've ever travelled on the north east corridor of the USA, from Washington DC to New York, but on the regional trains there, the conductor puts coloured tabs above people's seats as he checks the tickets;   not sure that I understand exactly how it works, but I think it's probably quite hard to dodge.