Great Western Coffee Shop

Moderator note: This discussion on the finer points of where and when you should buy a ticket when you've started your journey from a station with no facilities, has been split from another thread (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=11081.0) as the points raised had drifted from the original thread's subject. bignosemac

---

To pick up on this one point.

You must buy a ticket at the earliest opportunity, BUT you need not delay your journey doing so. If you've been unable to by on board inward to Temple Meads and have insufficient time to purchase before your next train leaves, then it would be reasonable to purchase on that next train.

I've only had a problem doing this once when, through no fault of my own, I got as far as Bracknell without having had an opportunity to purchase. Admittedly I did enter a world of pain with an RPI at Bracknell gateline but once all was explained I was allowed to purchase and the PF that was being written was torn up. I got some goodwill compo from SWT as well for being unnecessarily delayed at my destination.

Thanks, bignosemac, I shall bear that in mind should I have the same problem again. I've moved house since my greatest use of the line, so no longer leave the car at Redland Parkway very often, but I always worried about being slapped with a penalty fare if I didn't get a ticket first.

Presumably that technically only works if your connection is more than the minimum recommended at Temple Meads?

I see nothing wrong in making a shorter connection. This isn't about compensation for delays where minimum connection times would have to be taken into account.

The Penalty Fares Policy (http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/rail-penalty-fares/rail-penalty-fares-policy.pdf) says:


No mention there of minimum connection times needing to be adhered to. Even 10 minutes at Bristol TM may not be time enough to either queue at the gateline or go to the ticket windows and purchase. Also your incoming train could be running a few minutes late.

It would be perverse, in my opinion, for a passenger to be PF'd or issued a full fare UFN when the inability to purchase a ticket is the fault of the rail industry and not a mistake or deliberate action on the part of the passenger.

As mentioned, I've only experienced a problem once but that was a coming together of many circumstances; late running, failed Avantix and tight connection, that saw me get all the way to Bracknell without having had an opportunity to purchase.

There are other occasions when I've been changing at Bristol Temple Meads after arriving on an inward local service where I've not had a chance to buy my ticket and I've decided not to risk queueing lest I miss the connection I want to make.

I like it! I really must start reading the small print about these things.

However, Byelaws make no mention of acceptable waiting times etc; and I would think that FC would have no issue with prosecuting you.

I assume you mean First Capital Connect (FCC)? They'd be on a hiding to nothing if they did. Yes, they are quite robust in prosecuting ticketless travel and they have made the odd mistake, but in this scenario they'd likely fail if they attempted prosecution. I don't think they'd even try.

In my opinion, the absence from the Byelaws of details about interchange stations and minimum connection times doesn't give a TOC more chance of a successful prosecution.

We're talking about journeys beginning at stations with no ticket facilities, or when an opportunity has not arisen to buy on board your first train. What is available after that is irrelevant when it comes to the Byelaw on ticketless travel:


No mention of interchange stations or minimum connection times. A prosecution could only go ahead under Byelaw 18 if there were facilities at the station where the journey began. Under Byelaw 18 there is nothing that says the passenger is compelled to seek out ticketing facilities on their journey when they've started from a station that has no facilities. That is a station with no ticket office, no Ticket Vending Machine and no Permit To Travel machine. If there are machines they have to be in working order.

I'd be very surprised if a Byelaw 18 prosecution was successful when the TOC is attempting to prosecute someone for not buying a ticket where they changed trains, when they started their journey at a station with no facilities. I've certainly not heard of such a case yet.

All that said, if you have time and it won't delay your journey, then by all means purchase your ticket at the interchange station.

I wouldn't put it past them.  I've been threatened with "a ^1000 fine and 6 months in prison" having arrived at Bedford Midland from Woburn Sands without a ticket.

That didn't really wash with me and I think my glaring face spoke a thousand words.  Next thing, I was being charged just ^3.10 (the railcard discounted return fare that I'd asked for).

Which reinforces my point. They'd be on a hiding to nothing if they attempted a prosecution.

It's not on, however, that RPIs can make baseless threats and could actually trouser more money from an unsuspecting passenger than necessary.

That's why my advice, when not holding a ticket through no fault of your own, is to only pay the fare that would've payable had there been facilities available at your start station. You then aren't already out of pocket and have time and opportunity to mount a defence should the TOC decide to pursue the matter.

If you've done nothing wrong then a prosecution can not succeed.

But byelaw 18(2) requires the traveller to only have had the opportunity to purchase a ticket before it is shown, that opportunity could (and has been successfully argued in court) be that there was a guard on the previous train or that there were facilities at your interchange station. In such case the RPI would not ask for any money at the time as the matter would be reported.

Byelaw 18(2)?


Not sure what you are saying here vacman. You can not be in breach of either Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if there was no opportunity to purchase a ticket at the station where you started your journey, so says Byelaw 18(3)(i).

There is no mention in the Byelaws of other opportunities, be they on board or at an interchange. Can you point me to a case where someone has been prosecuted (as you say it has been successfully argued in court) having not had an opportunity to purchase a ticket at their start station.

An RPI may well report, but the likelihood of a prosecution is, in my opinion, zero. Unless there are other offences commited.

If the RPI refuses the fare due then all that can be collected at a later date is that fare.

This all goes to suggest that the unfortunate innocent may well pony up big money when confronted by an official, whereas the savvy travvy with knowledge of the rules will stand his ground, and get the supersaver return, plus a discount for inconvenience. Tjat doesn't appeal to my sense of fair play.

I totally agree FTN. (Must stop saying that!)

The deck really is stacked in favour of the rail industry. They have Penalty Fares, Byelaws and the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 at their disposal. Coupled with a fares systems that is extremely complex with many pitfalls for the unwary.

All I can do is arm myself with as much knowledge of the system as possible and offer advice where appropriate.

I don't condone deliberate fare evasion, but will always side with the individual when they have been caught in one of the many pitfalls, through little or no fault of their own.

I am however most definitely not a lawyer and anyone facing a Penalty Fare, Byelaw prosecution or worse should seek as much advice as possible. My main piece of advice is to pay or offer to pay only the fare due when challenged. If you have done nothing wrong then that'll be the end of the matter. If a Penalty Fare has been correctly issued then you have time to pay the balance after seeking advice.

Yes, I was referring to First Capital Connect (whose official abbreviation is FC not CC or FCC (Although the latter is regularly used, a little like FGW (actually GW)! :) )).

Would they be on a hiding to nothing? Plenty of people incriminate themselves when writing their version of events or while they are being questioned. This is why First Group's prosecution letters do not specifically say what they will prosecute you under as they reserve the right to decide later. Equally plenty of people settle out of court to avoid a [threatened] criminal record.

I wasn't aware, at the time of writing my first message that this person had travelled from a station with no facilities. You are correct, Byelaw 18 doesn't apply in the situation you have described.

A TVM which is card-only *I believe*, in FGWs mind, constitutes full working order.

NB: Edited to reflect that this is solely my opinion and *isn't* based on any evidence I have in my inbox and that I *cannot* distribute.

If true, that is very worrying. I'd like to see the case law, that should be in the public domain if courts were involved.

I can't believe they've successfully prosecuted someone who started their journey from a station with a card-only TVM and that person only had cash, or held a card that wasn't accepted. There must be other circumstances for a successful prosecution, surely? Such as ignoring a PERTIS or refusing to pay on board.

This is effectively denying travel to large range of people and could be seen as discriminatory. Many children don't have debit cards, foreigners may not have a card that'll work the machine, and there are people out there, usually from the poorer parts of society, who may not even have a bank account.

A policy of prosecuting those people for not having a valid ticket when they only method of retail is one not available to them is wrong.

As I said, if I'm made aware of an example where this has happened, and there are no other factors that made the prosecution successful, I'll be shouting from the rooftops. I'd even go to the Daily Mail!

I've sent you a DM BNM.

I will *not* be offering to share any information I may have for confidentiality reasons.

BNM is very correct about TVMs. The ticket machine at Hanborough will now no longer recognise my finger touch so I cannot purchase a ticket at this unstaffed station as the machine will no longer take cash since it was attacked and cash stolen from it a few years ago. What is peculiar is that the next person to try to purchase a ticket behind me will quite possibly find his finger touch is accepted. I know that I am not alone in not being able to buy a ticket from the machine but you just try telling some FGW staff that. Unfortunately whilst the TVM at Charlbury will issue tickets for collection bought over the internet, the Hanborough machine does not have this facility even though I have twice asked FGW staff if the machine can be altered to do so.