Great Western Coffee Shop

Transport for London is likely to gain control of suburban rail services currently operated by First Great Western when the London Crossrail project is completed.
The Crossrail TOC would take over the operation of certain existing services currently running out of London Paddington station, to Maidenhead, when the FGW franchise agreement ends. The new TOC would receive revenues for the routes assumed and would also inherit the 'operator of last resort' obligations that accompany the services.

(I'm sure the government will reannounce the Reading project half a dozen times before work actually commences.) 

Or have Crossrail just brushed that little problem under the carpet?

Crossrail says its a connecting service, so why not extend it to Reading and connect Reading, Henley-on-Thames, Basingstoke, as well as even Birmingham (connected to Reading by CrossCountry) to Essex?.

Lets say someone wants to travel from Slough to Bristol, according to Network Rail travel planner, catch a train to Reading and then change onto a fast to Bristol. When crossrail is introduced an extra change at Maidenhead will be introduced, making journey time infact longer.

Here is something interesting

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7230375.stm

So it looks like it might be an option.

Latest links from the DfT.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/policy/lt/metronetmou.pdf

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/policy/lt/tflsettlementletteroctober.pdf

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/policy/lt/trlsettlementletterfebruary.pdf

http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/speechesstatements/statements/crossrailupdate

http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/speechesstatements/statements/fundingtfl

Nice to see that on the Crossrail link that the route from Maidenhead to Reading is being 'safeguarded' should future expansion of Crossrail be deemed appropriate to this more logical terminus.

Worded very carefully to ensure that there is no cause for further delay to the commencement of works, of course, but I would not be too surprised to see the opinions of the westerly terminus change over the next few years.

An interesting article entitled "Electrification: Time for battle lines to be drawn?" (link below.)
http://www.railnews.co.uk/2008/01/opinions/200801_alanmarshall.html

I'm still hoping (and expecting) for common sense to prevail and the Crossrail scheme gets extended to Reading. It makes so much more sense as then all suburban trains eastwards from Reading would be Crossrail except perhaps for the half-hourly through stopping service from Oxford. Some could be curtailed at Maidenhead, but Twyford passengers will not be keen to lose their four off-peak trains an hour to London which is Crossrail terminates at Maidenhead they will surely have to?

There is some sort of depot being built at West Drayton for Crossrail, surely the money spent doing that would be better spent extending to reading. In the grand scheme of things the electrification costs to enable this must be tiny compared to the cost of tunnelling under London.

Apart from the shortage of platforms at Reading, which will be alleviated by the Reading redevelopment there is also a power supply problem going to Reading, it would mean a Grid supply at Reading the Grid at Early this is a 132kV site is not suitable and would need considerable investment.

This is typical short sighted thinking

Presumably 400KV will be required at Reading for GWML electrification so could be provided in advance for Crossrail.

he great thing about electrifying is once you get the gangs rolling they can put up wire at a phenominal rate. The problem is that probably most of the best BR electrification engineers have retired. There is the HS1 team but presumably they've been dispersed to to other jobs plus they weren't wiring an existing railway.

Extending to Reading would certainly allieviate some of the problems but I can't see Crossrail running other than all stations Reading Paddington so Maidenhead Twford and Slough would still probably lose their fast peak services.

With the majority of peak trains from/to Twyford/Maidenhead crossing over to the main lines by Dolphin Junction (east of Slough) at the latest -with some running main line all the way from/to Reading - I should imagine that roughly the same peak hour fast service to the main-line terminal at Paddington could be provided as now without CrossRail hindering it too much. The 5th bi-directional 'utility' Relief line from Airport Junction to Langley might also allow for a semi-fast CrossRail service in the peaks to overtake slower trains stopping between those points?

Does the title of you post, Lee, suggest that Crossrail will be extended to Reading? :P

The two projects are being run by one Project Director and senior team, this makes sense as the two projects will clash in terms of possession planning, resources, engineers etc.  The Reading station redevelopment is being designed Crossrail friendly that is platform configuration, space is being allowed for stabling etc

Urr - so why can't they jump off the fence and state that Crossrail WILL be extended to Reading?

I've often wondered what's wrong with raising money through bonds, and the conclusion I have come to is that there's not enough money in it for the government's supporters.

I might be talking out of my hat here but I think that if a bond is raised then it shows as a debt obligation and needs to be included in the Govt's calculation of its Puiblic Sector borrowing.  That would screw up Gordon's "Golden Rules" (remember those that he used to say were streadfast/unbreakable, etc?  If something is funder through PFI then it stays off the balance sheet and isn't included - so it's a neat way for the government to fund schemes and increase UK Plc's finance obligations (=how much we owe) without affecting UK Plc's "debt" (= how much we owe). ???

What exactly needs protecting? I take it there are no plans to rip up the slow lines!

And Xrail won't work - FGW HSS will be slowed down by LTV (Thames Turbos from Banbury and Oxford) trains stopping on the fast lines.

We need an extra track (or two). We need it NOW.

And electrification is unlikely:

- the gov have made this clear by ordering a multi-million pound DIESEL train set for the GWML, instead of getting their act together, and starting a rolling programme;

- the Severn Tunnel can't be wired easily, so it would not be worth it until the Severn Barrage is built.

- the gov have made this clear by ordering a multi-million pound DIESEL train set for the GWML, instead of getting their act together, and starting a rolling programme;

MP calls Reading Crossrail plans 'little or no use'

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/67754000/jpg/_67754899_57651_nrbridgedemolition.jpg)
The ^14.8bn rail link will connect Berkshire and Buckinghamshire to Essex and Kent via London and is currently planned to finish in Maidenhead

Plans to extend Crossrail to Reading "are of little or no use", one of the town's MPs has said.

Rob Wilson said the metro link from Reading to London would be double the journey time offered by First Great Western's current service.

The Tory MP is in talks with Crossrail Minister, Stephen Hammond, about also offering "semi-fast services".

The Department for Transport (DfT) said it was "carrying out a further detailed evaluation of the proposal".

The ^14.8bn rail link is set to open in 2018 and will provide an east-west route across London and the South East.

Both Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin and shadow infrastructure minister Lord Adonis have called for an extension to Reading.

But Reading East MP Mr Wilson said the current proposals were "highly unsatisfactory" and "inappropriate" for Reading commuters. He said the main sticking points were the hour-long journey time - compared with First Great Western's 30-minute service - and the "Tube-style trains" which do not offer toilets, catering or "comfortable seats from which to work".

He is proposing semi-fast services of about 40 minutes a few times per hour to be competitive with First Great Western.

The DfT, responsible for the rail extension, said: "Work to evaluate the proposal will be concluded in the early part of 2014".

Surely Crossrail trains should replace the local stopping services from Reading to Paddington in their entirety rather than having services from Reading to Maidenhead to join in with them.

That said no-one would expect a Reading to Paddington traveller to use them any more than they would use the local stopping service at the moment. 

Why would the Act need to change just to alter the services if no changes in infrastructure would be required.

Why would the Act need to change just to alter the services if no changes in infrastructure would be required.

From what I have read and heard about the Crossrail trains as they are currently foreseen they will be optimised for the "metro' character of the inner London services. On page 43 of the December 2013 Modern Railways there is a quote saying "the new Class 345s will be a 'step on from the Overground'." To me this implies longitudinal seats and no toilets.

Political murmurings are gaining pace for an extension to Reading.  Fingers crossed that this happens, from the onset, as the benefits far outweigh the negatives in my opinion.

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/home-secretary-discusses-extending-crossrail-6497532 (http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/home-secretary-discusses-extending-crossrail-6497532)

I have no doubt that Crossrail will go to Reading, but it is being built to the funding and program laid out the Bill, the politicians are the first to hammer projects for costing more and taking longer, they (the politicians) if they want Crossrail to Reading as part of the build need to stump and say they have authorised addition money and there will be a delay to delivering the final program.

Otherwise both platforms on the main lines could be easily lengthened the short amount required, and the down relief platform is already plenty long enough (but would need a signal moved towards the end of its full length).

The physical accommodation of the trains at Twyford is not an issue as SDO will deal with that.  The Crossrail project funding authority is the biggest issue an alteration to the current Crossrail construction and entry into service plan would put a big risk to the "on time on budget" obligation that has been placed on the Crossrail team by DfT and the Government.

What needs to be developed by DfT is a post 2018/9 extension of Crossrail to Reading and the integration of the West of Reading - Oxford local trains into the Eastwest Rail plan with a cross platform interchange at Reading between Crossrail and Eastwest Rail there will also need to be a number of semi fast run on the Main Lines between Paddington and Oxford / Banbury and even Newbury with stops at Slough, Maidenhead, Didcot.

I would advocate the Sectary of State for Transport holding their nerve on the current Crossrail program but the do need to announce what the GW TV franchising is going to look like in 2020, yes I know its a long way off but if the Sectary of State for Transport buckles the political pressure Crossrail budget will just get blow out of the water

...and I am not convinced of the suitability of what is, in effect, metro-type stock running on such long journeys

Bombardier has won a ^1bn contract to provide trains for the Crossrail project, the government has announced.

The company will provide 60 trains for the Crossrail service, set to open in 2018.

The trains will be manufactured and assembled at Bombardier's plant in Derby.

The Department for Transport said Bombardier's contract would provide 760 manufacturing jobs and 80 apprenticeships.

It also that about 74% of the amount spent on the contract would stay in the UK economy.

Bombardier beat Japan's Hitachi and Spain's CAF to secure the deal.

The Crossrail system is due to run from Maidenhead and Heathrow Airport in the west, to Abbey Wood and Shenfield in the east.

65 trains to be built in Derby, with over 1,000 jobs and around 100 apprenticeships supported in the UK.
Crossrail train

The intention to award a contract to deliver rolling stock and a new depot for Crossrail with a capital value of around ^1 billion to Bombardier has been announced today (6 February 2014) by Transport for London (TfL) and The Department for Transport (DfT).

The contract between TfL and Bombardier covers the supply, delivery and maintenance of 65 new trains and a depot at Old Oak Common. The contract award is subject to a 10 day standstill period.

TfL will run Crossrail as part of its integrated transport services for London, including ticketing and customer travel information.

Bombardier has confirmed that the new trains will be manufactured and assembled at their plant in Derby. This contract will support 760 UK manufacturing jobs plus 80 apprenticeships. An estimated 74% of contract spend will remain in the UK economy.

The construction of the maintenance depot at Old Oak Common will support 244 jobs, plus 16 apprenticeships. When fully operational the depot will support 80 jobs to maintain the new fleet of trains.

Each Crossrail train is 200 metres long and able to carry up to 1,500 passengers. Key features of the new high-capacity Crossrail trains include air conditioning and inter-connecting walk-through carriages. On-train passenger information systems will deliver real-time travel information to allow passengers to plan their onward journeys.

The new lightweight Crossrail trains will be built with an emphasis on energy efficiency and use of intelligent on-train energy management systems.

Each Crossrail train is 200 metres long and able to carry up to 1,500 passengers. Key features of the new high-capacity Crossrail trains include air conditioning and inter-connecting walk-through carriages. On-train passenger information systems will deliver real-time travel information to allow passengers to plan their onward journeys.

The new lightweight Crossrail trains will be built with an emphasis on energy efficiency and use of intelligent on-train energy management systems.

Basically, the train which is able to carry 1,500 isn't suitable for journeys from Reading.  Of that 1,500 capacity there is only 450 seats!

The releif lines are going to Crossrail, so it would be down to them to determine, what if any, paths exist on 'their' lines - whether from Maidenhead or Reading.

I am slightly concerned that the trains sound like they may not be too comfortable for a journey of that length? Have I understood correctly that they are going to be configured a bit like the new Underground trains (which seem to be a massive improvement for that job, by the way)?

The RUSs favoured "skip-stop", which only gets you a small time gain - nothing like a true fast or semi-fast. That would need to run on the main lines, which was considered but rejected because there is no grade separated crossing onto them. The top speed would be an issue too.

But across London, the gain in time should be substantial - it's only seven miles to Canary Wharf, and with just six stops and suburban rail rather than tube timings.

Hmmm.....I think there's an agreement otherwise. Haven't got time currently to nose around the CRossrail site though.

As an aside, I was surprised to see the contract was for 9 coach trains - I had it in mind they were going to be 10 coach sets.

However, there are only 4 tph planned east of west of Airport Junction to Maidenhead, with many services turning back at Paddington.

So in theory it would be possible to extend two of these becoming semi-fast Crossrail services to Reading, maybe calling Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough. I say in theory because I have no idea whether the timetable would allow it. This would start to give a more attractive journey time from Reading, which might then seem attractive enough when added to the convenience of not changing at Paddington. And that could also have the advantage of taking some pressure off HSS between Reading and Paddington. The comfort of the rolling stock could well be an issue though, and the 90mph top speed would add a few more minutes to such a service than if it were 100mph.

Why would they be configured like underground trains when the Thameslink ones are not.  Nothing has been published about the seating pattern, just the numbers.  

Why would they be configured like underground trains when the Thameslink ones are not.  Nothing has been published about the seating pattern, just the numbers.  

No toilets either, which might cloud the trip from Reading, should it ever get there.

Crossrail

7. Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab): What steps his Department is taking to ensure that the Crossrail programme provides adequate toilet facilities at stations and on its rolling stock. [61512]

The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers): Provision of adequate and accessible facilities is an important consideration for many passengers. The majority of Crossrail stations will have toilet facilities. Since this will be a high frequency metro service, with most passengers travelling relatively short distances, we have no current plans to provide toilets on Crossrail trains.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm110623/debtext/110623-0001.htm

Written answer received on 21 December 2011:
Crossrail will be a high-frequency metro-style service for London and the south east. It is estimated that the average time a passenger will travel on Crossrail will be 20 minutes. It is not intended that toilets will be provided on board Crossrail trains.

http://www.london.gov.uk/mqt/public/question.do?id=39392

No toilets either...

Chris how likely is it that Old Oak Common will be built?
Has it been confirmed, and if it has where is that information from?

It's in the HS2 documents, isn't it?

There is a train of thought, that is apparently gaining favour, of missing out Euston and connecting HS2 to HS1 north of St Pancras, there by OOC would be the London hub for HS2.  Euston is proving to be expensive

HS2 Ltd has examined the Euston Cross proposal at a high level. From their analysis it is clear that this would be a substantially more expensive proposal ^ broadly estimated at a net additional cost of ^4bn to ^6bn. The construction of an underground railway station between Euston and Kings Cross would be technically challenging and add many years to the construction programme. If parts of the new station had to be constructed using an ^open box^ method, as HS2 Ltd^s engineers believe, then parts of the Somers Town Estate would need to be demolished to make way for the temporary construction works. Such a strategic rethinking of HS2 would require a substantially greater justification in terms of future passenger demand east of Euston than we consider to exist. For these reasons, the Secretary of State is clear that Euston Cross is not a realistic alternative to the revised Euston scheme.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/260506/cm-8758.pdf

Are you possibly referring here to the 'Euston Cross' proposals?

AFAICT DfT have ruled it out completely, within the recent 'design refinement consultation' response here, page 6:

OK fair enough, since my computer has issues with opening up certain files, is it the case that Old Oak Common will be built on separate track  and not a add on station on the main Great Western Mainline, since there is too many of those small stations around, adding to journey times if OOC is build on the reliefs.
And if they have all that money to build HS2 why not 6 track the whole London to Reading line with 6 tracks boosting capacity on a line that needs extra capacity desperately. Building HS2 is time consuming and not really necessary when there's already the WCML and ECML which could be upgraded further. 

Upgrading the WCML will still be expensive, and be hugely disruptive, remember all the problems with the last West Coast modernisation. HS2 will act as an alternative for the WCML, allowing fast services to be diverted off of it. It will provide a similar capacity boost as 6-tracking the WCML, but 6-tracking the WCML as far as the divergence off to Northampton is something that is unlikely to ever happen. HS2 will provide a huge capacity increase of the WCML, with the added bonus of speeding up journey times and without all the disruption that upgrading the WCML would entail.

I'm not sure why our Countryside is so special that it can't possibly have High Speed trains running through it, it happens in plenty of other countries worldwide. If HS2 isn't built the WCML is going to be able to take less freight so you're going to have lots more lorries clogging up the motorways. I'm not really aware of anybody complaining about how much High Speed 1 has spoiled the areas it is now running through. 6 tracking between London and Reading probably isn't needed in the medium term. Paddington-Reading is getting a capacity boost in the future with new trains with better acceleration and a new in cab signalling which will allow for closer signalling headways.

To be honest it's more peoples homes that will get destroyed if HS2 goes ahead, I can't see people being quite about that to be fair. I am still thinking why such a scheme is needed when other parts of the country have no railways at all whilst other critical hubs need investment quickly, Yet others have 4 or 6 track railways with fast and slow passenger trains and now planned and frakly silly HS2 scheme.

The impressive thing about the hS2 route was how homes were affected. The announced changes at Euston has dramatically reduced that already. Its not just abut how much capacity there is already, but how much is needed!

And 6-tracking the WCML / GWML won't destroy peoples homes? Of course not.

(think of all the homes next to the railway in urban areas)

Doh.

Pretty much what's planned actually :-)

Whilst it is true that any upgrade of the West Coast Mainline is likely to be expensive and disruptive, truthfully building a HS2 line will disrupt peoples livelihoods much deeper than upgrading existing lines, also the countryside doesn't need trains racing through at 250 mph.

Far more people live alongside the WCML than the route of HS2; widening it would involve closing far more roads, demolishing many more businesses and properties, and seriously disrupting a vast number of existing rail passengers and freight users for a considerable length of time. HS1 has show that the impact of high speed trains on the countryside can be mitigated and is far less intrusive than a major road.

Chris

Have you any idea how much all the 6 tracking and bridge raising for double-decking you propose would cost, or how disruptive it would be for existing services? Unless you have some realistic estimates, you simply can't assert that HS2 would be more expensive.  And why is building HS2 in the Chilterns a no-no? It isn't as if there aren't already lots of major roads going through it.

building the new HS2 through the chilterns is a big no no.....6 tracking the London to Reading as it's a potentially good scheme that will benefit people even if sacrifices are to be made i.e giving up homes or business.

but I really cannot understand why such an unnecessary scheme is needed when again you have enough railways to the north.

Some valid points are made I don't know how much it would to upgrade the WCML or the end cost of HS2 will be, but I really cannot understand why such an unnecessary scheme is needed when again you have enough railways to the north. It's not necessary to build through the chilterns or so one can get to the midlands and the north quickly that's why you have virgin trains and east coast trains. And what is so wrong in using them, also do you really want to pay more taxes? A line clearly has to be drawn somewhere

We're on a promise"! Well, almost. Terry Morgan (Crossrail Chairman) is now saying we can expect an announcement of the continuation to Reading "soon".

Indeed, there is a tweet circulating quoting "The Minister" saying there'll be an announcement on "the electrification" "Soon, but not in the budget"....maybe be related, maybe not....

BREAKING: Crossrail project could come to Reading
Last updated Wed 26 Mar 2014

The Government is expected to announce tomorrow that the Crossrail project will come to Reading.

The ^16 billion scheme would link the town with Central London and the east without the need to change trains at Paddington.

It is by far the biggest rail upgrade scheme ever in the Thames Valley.

A new tunnel is being built between Paddington and Reading aimed at relieving congestion.

The scheme when announced in the 1990s was meant to come to Reading, but was later cut to only go to Maidenhead to save hundreds of millions of pounds.

The original scheme had the route going to Ebbsfleet in Kent, but it is unclear if that will happen.

MPs and council leaders have long campaigned for the link which will almost certainly lead to a massive jobs and housing boost.

In response, Transport Minister Stephen Hammond confirmed in a letter today that the Department for Transport will now order a detailed study of the benefits and costs of constructing additional loop facilities to enable faster Crossrail trains between Reading and Paddington. The findings of the study will be published alongside Network Rail^s draft priorities for rail routes in the west of Britain in October 2014. The Transport Minister acknowledged that Rob had already made a ^strong and powerful^ case for improved Crossrail services between Reading and London via such additional loop facilities.

Rail Minister Stephen Hammond said: ^Crossrail reaching Reading is further proof of our commitment to deliver a transport network fit for the 21st century. It will improve connectivity and deliver greater choice and convenience for passengers travelling into London. It will also make better use of the already congested Great Western Main Line, freeing up capacity for further improvements including potential direct services from Reading to Heathrow as part of the Western Access Scheme.  In addition I have requested Network Rail to look as the cost benefit analysis of increasing the number of faster trains between Reading and Paddington.^

Rob said: ...

"I am therefore pleased that the rail minister has announced that the infrastructure improvements needed to deliver a more rapid and direct Crossrail service with fewer stops and faster journey times will be fully analysed as part of the next investment review. The relevant infrastructure could be put in place as soon as 2020/21, just two years after Crossrail services to Reading start. If places like Watford can have fast and semi-fast services on their metro trains into London, there is no reason why Reading can^t have the same."

Confused.

We are consistently told that there is no further track capacity between Paddington and Reading, and thats why we can't have more trains on the FGW routes.
Yet, here we are being told that Crossrail will be delivering fast and semi-fast services from Reading.

Are they just going to fly over all of the stopping CR and FGW trains?

Also I note that this appears to be an announcement of a 'cost benefit analysis' rather than a commitment to change.  Is this just political speak for announcing the change, or have the media gotten carried away?

Once operational, Crossrail services are expected to serve Maidenhead on a 4 trains per hour basis as originally planned, with 2 of these services continuing to Reading via Twyford.

In addition, the planned future Great Western franchise service pattern from Reading to London will not change. Twice hourly semi-fast services and existing fast mainline services will continue, calling at the same stations as today.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/extension-of-crossrail

In addition I have requested Network Rail to look at the cost benefit analysis of increasing the number of faster trains between Reading and Paddington.

In addition, the planned future Great Western franchise service pattern from Reading to London will not change. Twice hourly semi-fast services and existing fast mainline services will continue, calling at the same stations as today.

Passengers will continue to benefit from the service frequency enjoyed today between Reading and Hayes & Harlington, maintaining connectivity with Heathrow and to Ealing Broadway, for interchanges with the Central and District lines.

The Reading extension will also generate some cost savings from reduced infrastructure enhancements at Maidenhead and Slough, and only minor works will be required at Twyford and Reading to accommodate Crossrail services.

Now, the service pattern in Stage 1 was, I thought, to have FGW only running to Slough. Perhaps that has already changed in franchise discussions?

Other operators^ services are assumed to be:

2 trains per hour from Reading calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes & Harlington and Ealing Broadway to Paddington;
2 trains per hour from Reading calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Taplow, Burnham and terminating at Slough;
1 through train from Henley on Thames to Paddington; and
1 through train from Bourne End to Paddington

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/

Crossrail West station final destination announcement: 27 March

"This is a welcome move by Crossrail and the DfT. Extending Crossrail through to Reading is a much more elegant solution for customers. This will secure Twyford's through-trains to London, make it easier for passengers from the west of our network to connect with Crossrail services, and inject important additional seating capacity between Reading and London.

"In the shorter term it removes the need for disruptive construction work at Slough station, which would have offered minimal practical benefit to customers at significant cost.

"This news also creates an opportunity for us to explore as an industry how more investment in infrastructure could create extra capacity and potentially reduce Crossrail journey times to destinations such as Reading."

Last year you said you were talking to the DfT about new electric trains for the Thames Valley. How will this news impact your choice of new trains?

We continue to talk with the DfT about new electric trains for this part of our network, and we are both clear that any new trains would need to be compatible with the Crossrail timetable.

Surely this decision means customers at Slough will see less investment in their station. Why are they losing out?

The original Crossrail proposals required a shuttle service to operate to Slough, and a considerable amount of work at the station to accommodate them.

This would have meant sustained disruptive work for customers at Slough while the work was carried out.

Extending Crossrail removes the need for that work while improving connections for many of our customers. This is the right thing to do.

Did we not waste resources/ cause unnecessary customer disruption preparing Maidenhead as the final destination of Crossrail West of Paddington?

This is really a question for Crossrail. However, Maidenhead will still remain the western sidings for the Crossrail Trains and a point where staff employed by the Crossrail operator will be based therefore the design of their facilities and that of the sidings is still relevant.
In the long run, we believe this is the better option for customers and in the short term will reduce disruption during associated Crossrail construction works.


What now needs to be done to prepare Reading for Crossrail?  Will it involve further customer disruption beyond the projects completion date (summer 2015)

Reading is able to cope with the Crossrail trains arriving along with the corresponding changes to the timetable. The station has been developed with these potential changes in mind so will only require minor modifications.

It is not anticipated that today^s announcement will cause any disruptions beyond those necessary for completion of the current project.

-  How will Crossrail services beginning from Reading impact services provided by the TOC on that route?

A new timetable will need to be introduced to accommodate the CRL trains and this will require some changes to the services supplied by the TOC. But with the introduction of the Crossrail trains and new longer TOC trains passengers should see more trains with increased capacity,  especially during the peak periods making their journeys far easier. 

I wonder what impact this will have on Heathrow expess ambition to run to Reading:

https://www.heathrowexpress.com/news/2014-02-09-ambition-for-heathrow-reading-express-service-unveiled

.
Commuters from Radley deserve a faster service and running more fast services will lighten the load of HSTs at Didcot Parkway and

Why a Crossrail boost brings with it worries about fares and overcrowding
by Simon Harris, Political Correspondent - last updated Thu 27 Mar 2014

A Crossrail boost to the Thames Valley could raise new concerns about fares and overcrowding.

The ^15 billion commuter rail line from Essex and Kent to Maidenhead in Berkshire is being extended to Reading.

Crossrail trains will also stop at Twyford, increasing the total number of stations on the route to 40. It could mean eastbound trains in the morning rush hour are already full by the time they reach other Crossrail stations.

It is unclear whether commuters from Reading and Twyford will be able to use Oyster cards.

Transport for London admitted an Oyster deal has yet to be reached with mainline rail commuters, although London mayor Boris Johnson is hopeful.

"I would like Oyster to be extended all over the south east of England. We are constantly talking to the train companies.

I am sure we will be able to do a deal."

With faster acceleration, higher line speeds, and no need to change in London; Maidenhead and Slough commuters will not need HSTs to stop on the fast lines.

But that was while Slough had shuttles? And Crossrail went only to Maidenhead?

Things change, the RUS predates these changes, I really wouldn't rely on it....

This is the same RUS that anticipated Crossrail would be extended to Reading. In fact, the RUS believes that eventually 10 Crossrail trains per hour will serve Reading.

RUS's do have a habit of turning in to reality.

The emerging scenario is of a 24 trains per hour
peak Crossrail service (16 off-peak), all running to/
from locations west of Paddington. This would
create a relatively simple service pattern, based on
the following peak service level:
- 10tph semi-fast to (or via) Heathrow Airport
- 6tph semi-fast on the GWML
- 8tph via a new route to the WCML slow lines.

So, actually, nowt to (specifically) Reading then?

as written in 2011 that '6 tph to the GWML' is covered by the 4 x Maidenhead and 2 x West Drayton that we have known about for some time.   All it seems to suggests elsewhere in the RUS is that the 4 x Maidenhead will get extended to Reading, but no mention of extra Crossrail frequency beyond that basic 6.

I can't find anything explicitly referring to 10 tph to Reading, but that's not to say it isn't possible when WRatH is completed and taken into account.

So, actually, nowt to (specifically) Reading then?

This option now proposes that the residuals are replaced by additional trains running through the
Crossrail Central London tunnels from the GWML route, at least in the longer term.
The resulting peak service pattern on the relief lines is therefore assumed to be:
^ 4tph Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 (stopping)
^ 4tph Reading (semi-fast east of Slough)
^ 2tph Slough (stopping)
^ 2tph West Drayton (stopping).
Under the specific option appraised all the above would run through the new Central London
Crossrail tunnel

The resulting peak 16tph Crossrail service pattern has been assumed to be as follows, though
other variations may exist:
^ 8tph Heathrow Airport Terminal 5 (running limited stop on the relief lines)
^ 2tph Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 (running skip-stop on the relief lines)
^ 4tph Reading (running skip-stop on the relief lines), based on Option A1
being implemented
^ 2tph Slough (running skip-stop on the relief lines).
The number of Crossrail services terminating in the Westbourne Park area from the east
would be further reduced from the currently planned 14tph to 8tph at peak times.

Doesn't the HEX contract expire at the same time that Crossrail is due to start?

:o
There will still be a demand for the fasts from Maidenhead and Slough: even a 40 min journey vs 20 mins?
Crossrail is also not going to go where everybody want to go.

There's still a few years after Crossrail starts full operations in May 2019 before the HEX contract runs out.  That's something like 2023 (from memory), so any major changes won't necessarily happen in parallel with Crossrail, there'll be about 4 years to get organised...

Connect transferring to Crossrail will of course happen separately, planned to be in May 2018 (running initially to Paddington HL and doubling to 4 tph).

Paul

Frontline changes to protect future and improve service

26/03/2014 13:29:00

Heathrow Express, Britain^s premium rail-air link, is proposing changes to its frontline customer service roles to prepare for the arrival of Crossrail.

The aims of the proposals put forward are to:

• Improve service for customers by introducing a new a ^customer host^ role
  
• Protect frontline jobs
  
• Implement a proposed pay freeze for all employees during 2014
  
• Help cut operating costs by nearly ^6 million between 2014 and 2019
  
• Position Heathrow Express to compete with Crossrail after it opens in 2018
  
• Position Heathrow Express to run services on the new western rail access between Reading and Heathrow from 2021.

Heathrow Express, which links Paddington with Heathrow in just 15 minutes, has briefed its employees and their trade union representatives. A consultation period began on February 26.

Keith Greenfield, managing director for Heathrow Express, said: "Our proposals offer all existing employees a future role within Heathrow Express.

"Crossrail will be the first direct competition to us since our launch in 1998, and the message is simple: We must be smarter today to compete tomorrow.

"The aim of these proposed changes is to enable our frontline employees to focus fully on delivering an improved service to our customers. This fits with our long-term plan to grow our business the smarter way - retaining existing customers and winning more by giving a top-rate service, rather than simply putting up fares."

He added: "Our proposals will cut our operating costs by nearly ^6 million over the next five years, while avoiding the need for compulsory redundancies and protecting existing employees' futures with the company.

"From 2021 we expect there to be western rail access into Heathrow. Between now and then we must prove we are the best operator to run services on this new line out to Slough and Reading. This is a crucial strand in the future plans for Heathrow Express."

I don't think they will, but don't necessarily expect the same number of fast/semi-fast services as a lot *will* travel direct on Crossrail. It'll take you a good 10-15 minutes to get onto Crossrail at PAD and for a lot, that will be longer & more convoluted that getting on the first Crossrail at their departing station.

Don't be surprised either if you find *some* Crossrail trains full to bursting at PAD & having to await an empty one out of the sidings.

Maidenhead and Slough commuters will use Crossrail - most will be able to walk to their destination from a Crossrail station (West End, City or Canary Wharf).
Any journey time increase by using a stopper will be negated by fast electric trains and no changing to the tube.
Maidenhead and Slough services will skip stop as well, they won't stop everywhere.

Exactly! It's not about it taking 15 minutes to change at Paddington.

It's about Crossrail taking you DIRECT to your destination without ANY tube. Maidenhead to the City will be QUICKER (45 mins) on crossrail than as currently (55 mins taking a fast service and changing onto the tube). Plus 4 trains per hour instead of 2 trains per hour, further reducing average journey times.

Finally, you'll have a seat all the way, and air conditioning.

There will be no need for HSTs to stop at Maidenhead and Slough on the main lines.

So, I have a choice of a through train at 46 minutes, on which if boarding at Maidenhead I know I will get a seat, on which I can park myself for the whole journey.

Or alternatively, I save 6 minutes, and likely have to stand, maybe squashed in the vestibule to Paddington, then change, and likely have to stand again for the onward journey to Liverpool St.

For the sake of 6 minuted, I'd go for Crossrail any day.

As a fellow Taplow user as far as I can see in the London direction we get 4 tph Crossrail all stations.

Whether; now 2 tph will be going on to Reading we will still get an additional  2 tph TOC service (the Slough to Reading shuttle) as well I don't know.

My point is that if all services start at Maidenhead tge n you have a chance. If it's starting from Reading and via Twyford then you may be standing.

Reallyvdepends on whether you're likely to get a seat at Maidenhead. My point is that if all services start at Maidenhead tge n you have a chance. If it's starting from Reading and via Twyford then you may be standing.

No I don't, but enjoy a challenge especially when it involves numbers!

Maidenhead has around 3,300 commuters using season tickets (source ORR station usage estimates, assuming 260 days use a year).  Let's assume that 75% of this travels eastwards in the morning (I'm using this because of comments that Reading is also a significant source of inward commuter flow, but it's clearly open to challenge). That would give around 2,500 passengers, say spread over the 3 hour period 0600 to 0900.

However, that will be an underestimate as some passengers will buy daily tickets. On the flip side, I haven't allowed for any of those season tickets being used for inward commuting, or the few whose daily commute occurs outside the rush hour.

The Class 345 is expected to have 450 seats. So 12 workings over the 3 hour period gives a total of 5,400 seats against the 2,500 estimate. However, some of the units will already have pax on board from Reading and Twyford, and the load will probably peak between 0700 and 0800. Nevertheless, given main line services will remain, and still be attractive to some, I suspect there will be room for all to be seated from Maidenhead.

Finally, I confidently predict that very soon after opening, if not before, the units will be lengthened from 9 to 11, as all the predictions are that Crossrail will become very heavily loaded in the central section almost from day 1.

 

Sounds like JohnR has inside information on how crossrail will provide seats for all Maidenhead passengers ::) Seriously though.. Crossrail is not useful to most Maidenhead to London commuters who head to all parts of the capital.. Yes I agree if I happened to be going somewhere on the crossrail route I may just consider a 40 minute journey to Paddington rather than a 20 minute one in rush hour plus changes  though I'm not so sure...

Why are people thinking that some HSTs will stop at Maidenhead and Slough? Each stop costs at least one path. With a doubling of Bristol HST services I can't see how it will all fit with fast line stops.

Why are people suggesting more crossover from fast to slow. Unless these are flyover junctions, this will eat capacity.

Why are people thinking that some HSTs will stop at Maidenhead and Slough? Each stop costs at least one path. With a doubling of Bristol HST services I can't see how it will all fit with fast line stops.

Why are people thinking that some HSTs will stop at Maidenhead and Slough? Each stop costs at least one path. With a doubling of Bristol HST services I can't see how it will all fit with fast line stops.

Oh well, that may be the case. But that means fewer fast services overall. Each stop removes at least one out of a total of 16 paths.

But it does maintain the fast services from Maidenhead

I suppose the best option would be for a new set of high speed tracks from Reading to London. (allowing the current fast lines to be used for semi fast services)

Crossrail could bring house price boom to Twyford and Wokingham
Apr 04, 2014 08:35 By Jon Nurse

A ripple effect could sweep Wokingham in a house price boom triggered by the extension of Crossrail through the borough, market experts believe.

Estate agents are forecasting a ^substantial^ rise in the value of homes in walking distance of the stop set for Twyford station as a wave of commuters are attracted to the village.

A shift in the market could send more families viewing homes around Wokingham and cause house prices to rise as the new London line opens in 2019.

Crossrail will be a new line dissecting London through to Shenfield, in Essex, providing commuters with direct access to the City of London and Canary Wharf.

Rail bosses announced last Thursday that the line^s western terminus will extend beyond Maidenhead to Twyford and Reading, with two services an hour heading into the capital from the borough.

House prices increased on average by more than ^10,000 around Wokingham in the past year, a trend which could continue on the completion of the ^15 billion rail project.

Neal Mackenzie, managing director at Michael Hardy Estate Agents in Wokingham, said: ^I expect it to have an impact as these things might have a ripple effect.

^If house prices do go up in Twyford, people who can^t afford to live in Twyford might look to Wokingham more. That would add further pressure [to the market].^

Mr Mackenzie expects more London workers to consider moving to Twyford thanks to the direct line through the city.

He added: ^You are opening the village to a market which has an earning potential significantly higher than the areas around Twyford and Reading.

^It^s difficult to quantify until it happens but it could bring the London effect further out of London.^

Jon Roberts, residential sales director at Romans estate agents, added: ^Crossrail will bring many benefits to the economy in

Wokingham and Twyford, resulting in property prices increasing in desirable areas.

^I predict properties within walking distance of the Crossrail station in Twyford will increase in value substantially, especially as more people are moving away from London seeking affordable housing.^

Home owners could see the value of their property rise with the arrival of Crossrail to the town, property experts are predicting.

Yesterday's announcement that Reading will become the terminus for the cross-London route instead of Maidenhead has led to speculation the town will be a magnet for City workers.

 Crossrail route map: Reading to Shenfield

But it has also fed concerns Reading folk looking to rent or buy a home in the town could be priced out of the market.

 Crossrail under construction: Images from Europe's largest rail infrastructure project

Crossrail will operate from Reading in the west through to Shenfield, Essex, in the east providing commuters with direct access to the City of London and Canary Wharf.

Jon Roberts, residential sales director at Romans estate agents, believes the service will have an impact on house prices in Reading.

He said: "The introduction of Crossrail will definitely have a positive effect on the local economy in Reading.

"I predict properties within walking distance of the main railway station will increase in value substantially, particular those situated within the RG1 postcode.

"We^ve already seen an influx in buyers moving to Reading from London, looking for more affordable housing in this popular commuter town, and Crossrail will only make the area look more attractive.

"It wouldn^t surprise me if more new homes were developed in and around Reading, with a focus on modern apartments for the commuters.

"Investors should keep an eye out for opportunities now, as house prices continue to rise."

 Crossrail to be extended to Reading

Andy Malone, sales director of Atlantis Property, said he welcomes the arrival of Crossrail in 2019 but believes the real benefit will come if future improvements to the service speeds up the Reading to Paddington journey.

He said: "We expect house prices in Reading to continue rising above the national average and the decision to extend Crossrail only adds to the town^s stock as a commuter base. It^s important to note that this won^t be the only factor affecting price increases though.

"Although the initial implementation of Crossrail will offer direct access to more areas of the capital, it will not increase journey times straight away."

He added: "The whole town will be delighted that the correct decision has been reached and Reading will provide the west terminus for Crossrail.

"Atlantis will be backing the necessary campaign to push through a second phase of the project that makes the most of the new infrastructure and ensures Reading^s continued development into a major European economic hub."

Caversham councillor Richard Davies, Reading Borough Council's lead councillor for housing, said he is pleased Crossrail is coming to Reading but he is concerned about the possible knock-on affect to the town's workers.

He said: "There seems to be quite a lot of chatter that people are expecting house prices to be improved by easier access to London but the rents in Reading are already pretty high and people on a low income are already finding it difficult to find decent accommodation and we have a very, very long housing waiting list and it's partly for that reason.

"It's not quite London levels but its getting towards there."

Cllr Davies added: "House prices and rents in London are very high and if you are working in the City and looking at places where you can get to work in an hour or so, you will inevitably look further out and that perhaps will squeeze people who work in Reading who then can't afford the housing."

The Crossrail website has now been updated/revised to show the effect on the western section service pattern of them running to Reading.   

The only 'GW' service remaining is 2 tph with the calling pattern of Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, Ealing Broadway and Paddington in the peak, with the addition of Hayes and Harlington in the off-peak only.   I wouldn't call this a 'stopping service' more of a 'semi fast', but that's just my opinion..

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/

Paul

The new bridge spanning the relief lines which will allow up Crossrail trains access to the Up Relief without conflicts is being slowly slid into place over several nights near Airport Junction.

The new bridge spanning the relief lines which will allow up Crossrail trains access to the Up Relief without conflicts is being slowly slid into place over several nights near Airport Junction.

Is it likely that the benefits of the new Stockley flyover will appear much sooner than the first Crossrail trains?   It seems to be progressing so that it could be ready within a year or two?

Paul

If (AIUI) two XRail services per hour will terminate at Reading, does that imply that Reading will be included in the TfL fare zoning?

Just want to speak up for us Tilehurst - Cholsey passengers, there aren't many of us in the Coffee Shop!

Still to slow....

I remember in NSE days, the 0935 from Newbury leaving Reading at 1000, double headed (50 + 47/4!) with 7 non-a/c Mark 2's, stopping in Paddington at 1026....

OTC

Not necessarily. A 125 takes 10 miles to get to its service speed. You can check this in the Volo equipped carriage by following the map. A 319 non-stop to Reading could probably run at 100mph for 30 out of 36 miles, i.e. 18 minutes. Allowing only 7 minutes for acceleration and braking gives a start to stop time of 25 minutes, better than many 125 runs. The IEP should be more nimble, of course.

All non 125 stock should be BANNED from the fast lines.

I just checked and the Class 700 EMU's coming (eventually) to FGW as an add-on to the FCC order are 100 mph for FCC, but maybe they can be upped to 110 mph for the GWML like the Class 350/1's on the WCML have been "to make better use of train paths" (according to Wikipedia).

110mph would help but we are back to the same differences we currently have with the turbos and 125's if the IEP class 800 is increased to 140mph although this is only possible with a completely new signaling system and this would also help with the pathing.

i presumme that the Relief lines wll be around 140 kph in new money, therefore, I would suggest that to make maaximum use of the the 4 track railway and new signalling there should be a number of 120/40 kph crossovers,  both left and right from Main to Relief. The speed would be set to match Relief Line speed after the crossover. This would mean that all trains (bar frieght) could cross at line speed without having to slow excessively. However, this would be prohibitively expensive in both provision and maintenance.

However it  would make full use of the capabilities, max speed, accelerartion and braking, of the stock and the new signalling.

Third item from Maidenhead Advertiser 29 Oct.

There has been quite a lot of correspondance about parking in Maidenhead in general recently. This week there's a letter headed "Where will all the Extra Commuters Park?".

Asking that very question about the projected growth in users of Maidenhead Station with Crossrail.

Seems a very sensible question and probably applies to all Crossrail served Stations even Taplow!

Thought for Moderators should we have a Dedicated Crossrail thread for issues like this?

My view, and it has been for a long time, is that Crossrail does NOT work West of Paddington, even going to Reading has not changed my view :(

My view, and it has been for a long time, is that Crossrail does NOT work West of Paddington, even going to Reading has not changed my view :(

Why does Crossrail not work West of Paddington.

Everyone will be expecting to leave the Padd terminators, so will be ready to alight....bear in mind they'll be 99% commuters wanting a seat on trains exiting from Padd so they won't be sleeping. I think they'll cope, and if someone gets carried over, the train will be back in the eastbound platform quite quickly. Yes, I do think that'll happen occasionally. It does in Japan.

Bear in mind we're only discussing 24tph *in the peaks*....so catch-up time is available outside these 2x3 hours - might even be only 2x2.5 hours.

Those on a Padd terminator will know it's terminating there - the CIS will be very clear.

Japan seems to cope, why can't we?

... Reading has plenty of platform capacity. 

This has been stated before as a "given", but I wonder if it's true.  Just 4 RL platforms for arrivals from /departures to Padd is no better than before the station rebuild, and if you count in the loss of the GL's behind the old platform 9 there's arguably less capacity than before for RL traffic.  Currently we have 2tph terminating from Padd, after Crossrail there will be rather more - 4 tph? There's freights to pass through, and Rdg - Oxford stoppers need platforms whether they run as through services to/from Padd or terminate/start at Rdg.  There's moves in and out of the depot.  On the plus side I accept that platform space will be freed up if (as I assume) all XC's, terminating or not, will go over to P3, 7 or 8.

Platform sharing is currently required as a necessary evil to provide sufficient RL platform capacity.  If more than 1 train per platform is required as a permanent feature, is some mid-platform signalling going to be installed to divide each of P12 - 15 into 2 platforms and thus avoid platform sharing? 

As regards the Crossrail terminators, they could of course run forward into the stabling sidings at the east end of the depot (which is what I always assumed would happen with terminators from Padd, whether GWR or Crossrail) and then come out again for the return journey ^ this would reduce platform occupancy time.

Incidentally, if the GWR EMU^s all run as 8 car or more the Newbury services will not be able to use P1-3.  They may have to use the Festival Feeder lines and P12 -15, adding to the demand for platform space.

They could then rebuild P1/2 as a second, but longer, XC terminating or reversing bay, as there's near zero chance of them lengthening their trains in the foreseeable future...

At the risk of stating the obvious, it would be good to see the proposed service pattern at least for the east end of GWR, with stopping patterns, line usage, frequencies, stock type, train lengths etc.  When will this be available?

If I remember correctly in one of the recent pdf publications (possibly a network rail or GWR one, I can't remember, it was mentioned on this forum about 2 months ago) they talked about having created a 2019 draft timetable, I think it was called 'Timetable 5' or 'Version 5' something along those lines, whether anyone has access to this?.... Unfortunately more than likely anyone that does have access wouldn't be allowed to re-publish

A proposed development timetable has been constructed for 2019 (known as ^Iteration 5^) which is based on a number of assumptions for the deployment and operation of the new SETs, EMUs, Crossrail and freight.

At the risk of stating the obvious, it would be good to see the proposed service pattern at least for the east end of GWR, with stopping patterns, line usage, frequencies, stock type, train lengths etc.  When will this be available?

Doesn't the Western route study define a 2019 service pattern?   Might have to be distilled from a number of different sections, but it includes a number of tables showing peak services by train type and capacity, and any number of line drawings showing all the different routes.

Doesn't the Western route study define a 2019 service pattern?   Might have to be distilled from a number of different sections, but it includes a number of tables showing peak services by train type and capacity, and any number of line drawings showing all the different routes.

Paul

... and to go back to where we started with this, ie platform capacity at Reading, it may not be possible to construct the timetable for Crossrail, GWR Reading ^ Oxford stoppers, East-West services etc in a way which minimises RL platform requirements at Reading.  There will be many other factors involved.

I still think RL platform capacity at Reading will be tight when the new services planned between now and 2019 start up.

The Reading Oxford stoppers could be replaced by EastWest Rail services, the Crossrail services I suspect will be on a fairly quick turn round at Reading I wonder if it will be one out and one in the same platform worse case the occupation of two platforms will not be for extended periods of time

The 2019 ITSS anticipates that two trains per hour running from Bedford/Milton Keynes to Oxford will be extended to Reading in place of the existing stopping service over this section of route, picking up intermediate station calls. This timetable solution is driven by the limited capacity available over the two-track section from 2019 between Oxford and Didcot and at Didcot East Junction

Considering market potential highlights the following possible
linkages:
^ London to Oxford (stopping service). An existing service pattern
which links significant origins and destinations west and east of
Reading

This would suggest that they plan on taking out a direct (eg: Tilehurst to Twyford)  service from 2019, however they realise that this may be an incorrect decision, and are already figuring how to re-instate this direct service after it has been removed... Crazy!

I can't see EastWest running beyond Oxford by that date....may not even be running at all, depending on the NR review report coming at the end of the month!

Several senior GWR staff have talked in the past about starting some of the Reading/Gatwick trains back from Oxford after the Reading underpass had been made useable.

Several senior GWR staff have talked in the past about starting some of the Reading/Gatwick trains back from Oxford after the Reading underpass had been made useable. Perhaps this could explain the mention of more Oxford/Reading trains?

Problem for me is that through trains across Reading to/from Gatwick don't fit the electrification strategy, or the rolling stock cascade strategy.   It would be a bit of an own goal to introduce them and then remove them just a couple of years later.

I suspect such proposals in the past might have predated the electrification decision - there was of course a period when Reading remodelling was all go but wires were not...

Paul

but this is a railway line from Essex & Kent to Berkshire - not a tube line....

Is it? I thought the reason for TfL building it was to provide cross-London capacity, and it is only extended at the ends to bring in extra money from outside London, both in grants and fares.

Begs the question why all the Overground railways don't have individual names.

The only exception I would make is for "john Lennon International Airport" both because Liverpool is in some ways one of our most American-facing cities and because it allows the use of the tag line "above us only sky" which sure beats the boring marking speak of "making every journey better" (LHR) or "amazing journeys start here" (BRS)

it's always been a rail line though....so Didcotdean's point is mine too, really

No Overground (that's it's name) separate name....but I guess TfL Rail lines will become part of Crossrail/Elizabeth Line.

The line name will be shortened to the Lizzy line and the train Tin Lizzies  ;D

.... MP for Whitney

I presume that would be the Whitney in Houston rather than the Witney in Oxfordshire

I presume that would be the Whitney in Houston rather than the Witney in Oxfordshire

I presume that would be the Whitney in Houston rather than the Witney in Oxfordshire

..........whatever happened to Witney's Red Barrel? Their "Party 7s" were great at Christmas too! ;)

Watney's Keg Red Barrel one of the reasons for the founding of CAMRA.