Great Western Coffee Shop

Having noted the wide variety of opinion here on the benefits, or otherwise, of various different classes of rolling stock that are trundling around the UK, I was wondering what this forum's opinion would be on the best suited rolling stock for the Cornish Mainline, Branch lines, and Intercity routes against the following criteria.

1.  All stations Penzance to Plymouth and return, with options for direct services from Plymouth to Newquay and Falmouth

2.  All stations Penzance to Plymouth, then fast to Reading and Paddington.

3.  Branch Line services.

From a purely cost effectiveness point of view, use of HSTs in Cornwall can hardly be a good thing - but of course the alternative is to abandon through services from the county.   Travel 1st class on the up Golden Hind and the two carriages are 95% empty until Plymouth.

Based on what's available at the moment HSTs are the best available, 150s as used on the Plymouth-Penzance services are inadequate on grounds of capacity and comfort. The full capacity of HSTs isn't used on a lot of services but 150s wouldn't provide enough capacity on a lot of them. 170s would probably be more suitable than 150s, they have interiors much more suited to 2 hour long journeys with 2+2 seating and tables, when a lot of Plymouth-Penzance services now run with 150/1s with 2+3 seating, they also have luggage space, which is almost non-existent on 150s but they retain 1/3 and 2/3 doors which help with quicker boarding and alighting.

150's are best for all the branches, 3 car 158's or 3 car 156's best for mainline as they have more luggage space in the form of the end luggage racks, or even 156+153 for busy daytime trains, a 2 car 156 would be adequate for most trains, and HST's for limited stop services through Cornwall, London trains dont all need to be stopping at Liskeard, Par, Camborne and Hayle and no HST's need to call at Saltash, St Germans, Lostwithiel or Hayle. To be honest, 143's would be well suited to the Falmouth and Newquay branches rather than in Devon!

except the pacers couldnt handle the sharp curves of these branches when first introduced, causing their withdrawal from cornwall when they were first introduced

Not exactly answering your question, but do you think there ought to be a rail option for the vast area of southern England between Reading and Plymouth exclusive so that they don't have to clog Cornwall's roads with their cars?
 :(

As I think i've posted before the only time i've ever felt motion sickness on a train was a 14X from Falmouth to Truro i was glad to get off and into a Mark 2.

I think the problem is that we are trying to use one train type for too many diverse services eg an HST on a stopper.

I think we need a drastic rethink of the pattern of all train services and Cornwall seems to be a good place to try it out.


Agree with type 1, possibly hourly but definitely 2 hourly

2 Should be a true IC Penaznce Truro Par (for Newquay) St Austall? Then fast Plymouth Exeter Westbury Reading London hourly

3 agree

Plus a Regional Express principle staions to Plymouth Bristol London to fit in with and possibly be passed by the ICs up to Taunton and from Bristol with the ICs from Tekmple Meads and Wales and Glouscester one from Swindon.

Thus getting to a IC RE RB service with conections into each other at principle stations.

The problem is that we don't have enough infrastructure to do the overtaking. That's why I advocate that any new station on a main line should be 4 tracks. This style of station was recognised as giving the optimum capacity when the Barry, the GW/GC joint line etc were built in around 1900. Plus the GWR buiding the WEstbury and Frome bypasses in the 30s which incidently were job creations schemes! Somehthing we need now? How about  4 tracks from Didcot to Wotton Bassett with a flyover at the latter. then you could reopen Uffington or Challow or a new site suitable for a Parkway.  Provided the 4 tracks are paired by direction.

Could also possibly do with a flyover West of Didcot to take the Down Relief over the Up and Down Mainlines.

The IC service to London should definitely not call at all stops in Cornwall! 4 stops max as above. HST standard rolling stock.

The line should really be electrified as part of the GW scheme and as part of a XC scheme. Then an electrostar service every hour to cover all the stops. Until then, a turbostar service.

Personally I believe the HSTs need to call at all stations still. If you don't call HSTs then stock with a similar level of capacity will be required. Running two trains per hour seems wasteful to me, the HSTs wouldn't be that busy as lots of people would be changing for the local services. Cornwall doesn't really have one big station which everbody uses, and with the exception of Truro, which is noticeably busier, all stations seem to have a similar amount of usage.

Sounds good. If you are talking present day then we'll gladly swap London Midland/Chiltern 172's and Chiltern 168 Turbos for FGW 14x and 15x.  ;) :P ;D

But if journey times can be reduced by axing stops, then more passengers will use the services! Perhaps not every IC train would axe stops, but the only key ones/during peaks e.g. Cornish Riviera.

I think more people value the convenience of not having to change than a small improvement in journey time. And if you were travelling from a station which doesn't have a direct HST then journey times will increase by the time you've caught the connecting train to somewhere, trains have to be a minimum of 20 minutes apart in Cornwall because of the constraints of the signalling system, so it's going to add 20 minutes to journeys. The Cornish Riviera is named because it serves Cornwall, so calling at most the stations seems sensible to me, the Cornish Riviera has good journey times because it skips stops beyond Plymouth.

Yes and according to a tweet from Roger ford tonight the DFT have been looking at re-bodying some of the pacer units (some work for ADL/Optare then perhaps?)

What about Wrightbus? They're still an independent concern. I was going to say Plaxton as well, but a little Google research tells me they are now part of Alexander Dennis Ltd (ADL).

On reflection, perhaps not Wrightbus though. They are the company responsible for Boris's 'New Routemaster'. We could end up with double decker pacers with an open rear platform!

Serious for a moment. Can the 142/143 fleet really be rebodied and life extended to comply with all the various safety (particularly crashworthiness) and access legislation that is current or in the pipeline?

I would have thought that "You can't make a silk purse out of Sow's ear" applies.

Not sure why they are even bothering, it's a pity we don't have much of rolling stock industry left as I would have thought something like a British made Stadler LINT unit would be a good replacement for the Pacers. They do narrow gauge ones which would probably fit the Brritish loading gauge. The trouble is most of them are low floor.

There is perhaps some merit in the idea. ROSCO's are apparently now getting a bit apprehensive about financing new diesel units because of the plans for electrification and the rising cost of oil. They feel that they won't have a guaranteed use for them for their whole lifespan because 25 years in the future DMUs may be very expensive for operators for run, so more and more electrification will happen. Life extending existing DMUs provides some DMUs to run on secondary lines for now, as if they are to be electrified, it will be a little way in the future yet.

I never understand why you cannot build a DMU that could be converted to an EMU.

If the DMU had a pantograph well and electric transmission and space allowed for a transformer then surely it could be converted to an EMU.

Many DC EMUs already have pantograph wells and room allowed for a transformer so why could not a DMU be built in a similar way?

Might need a new name, an EDMU perhaps?

Very interesting though Farwest John. It's basically what they are trying to do with the Voyagers which have diesel electric transmission already but in that case they would be adding a pantograph/transformer car to the set. Presumably when there's sufficient wires the diesel engines could be removed. Especialy as I undestand it they are basically modular packs

Good idea but a pity the units are so cramped, but at least tehyw ould vibrate as much.

Are we moving towards a regional / local version of IEP here?

Perhaps somthing like the class 172's operated by London Midland but also equiped with a pantograph .

I suppose it could work with a 3 carriage unit however It wouldnt be very good if it was a 2 carriage unit unless you order a additional pantograph carriage.

Still perhaps bi-mode might be good on local/regional services but it is certainly no good for intercity services and lets hope the cost of IEP will finally kill it and the DFT listens and lets the franchise bidders come up with their own proposals.

I suspect the Uk's widespread DMU use will with hindsight be seen as a passing phase. 

Electrification reduces the need for DMUs, but also rising passenger numbers even if there is no electrification.  Once you go from needing 2 or 3 coaches to run a service and start thinking of 4, 5 or 6 coaches, the economics tilt in favour of loco and stock.   passenger numbers are growing by 3 to 9% per year.  This means that in 10 to 20 years by which time the 158, 159 will be retiring, the 2 car trains will need to be 3 car, the 3 car 4 or 5 and the 4 car 5 or 6.  My prediction is that the current generation of DMUs will be mostly replaced by EMUs or loco and stock with only a relatively small demand for a cheap, basic 15x type DMU for use on tertiary routes.       

As I recall, the 11 x 4 car units planned but then cancelled for Cardiff -> Portsmouth were to be financed and run by a RoSCo called "Diesel Trains Ltd", set up by the DfT and owned by them due to the difficulty of persuading the commercial RoSCos to build more diesel trains against an uncertain future.  With no party likely to stay in power for the whole lifetime of any new trains, I can understand the reluctance of the commercial RoSCos to build trains when the pendulum has swung one way, only to be hit by it as it swings back the other way.

What about something like the French:

The Autorail ^ Grande Capacit^ (literally, high-capacity railcar) is a category of multiple unit train built at Bombardier Transportation's plant in Crespin for the French rail operator SNCF.[1] The AGC will also be produced by Remarul 16 Februarie in Romania at Cluj-Napoca for several east European rail operators.[2]

There are 3/4 varients Staright DMU, straight EMU and 2 bi modes one 1.5KV and the other AC.

    X 76500: diesel variant, also designated XGC
    Z 27500: electric variant capable of running on both 1.5 kV DC and 25 kV 50 Hz AC, also designated ZGC
    B 81500: dual-mode variant, capable of running on both diesel (by means of a diesel-electric engine) and 1.5 kV DC (by means of a pantograph), also designated BGC
    B 82500: dual-mode variant, capable of running on both diesel (by means of a diesel-electric motor) and 1.5 kV DC/25 kV AC (by means of a pantograph), also designated BGC; these trains are identical to the B 81500-series except for their capability of operating on AC power.

Source Wikapedia.

The bi-mode are used on outer suburban services from Paris (I think Est) and i understand fro friends who've used them change mode on the run.

It does depend on government. Until recently there was little excitement for electrification.
But hopefully the three teams that are in action now will continue - i.e. straight to the MML and doing the rest of the GWML in the 2020s. Afte that, who knows? XC infill?

Between the station ^merainville - Pontault-Combault and station of Roissy-en-Brie on the line Paris - Mulhouse , switching from electric heat mode and vice versa while driving is allowed, the line being equipped accordingly. This is a world first. In contrast, the line of alpine corridor in the region Rh^ne-Alpes , change the thermal mode in electric mode (and vice versa) is at a standstill in stations of Chamb^ry and Aix-les- baths .

From .. Wikipedia France  ;)

Network Rail are very pro-electrification and they do seem to have a plan for further electrification, and they are the ones who want all TransPennine routes including those to Hull and Scarborough electrified, so a complete job will be done. The problem of course is getting the funding.

Although slight change of subject in view of recent events I bet everyone wishes the Settle and Carlise and GSW line were electrified!

It says a lot about the S&C when both the East and West coast lines were closed it was still open. And to think they were going to close it.