Great Western Coffee Shop

For the nearly the last year i have been using an annual season ticket from a station on the WSM route to Bedminster. Every now and again i need to go to Temple Meads. So far every time i've needed to do this, i've bought a return from Bedminster to Temple Meads. Once or twice i've had to buy on the train or at the gate because the queue was too long. This morning i couldn't buy a ticket before getting on the train.

The ticket guy got very weird and started asking accusatory questions as if i was a serial fare evader saying that adding the BDM-BRI section was not valid because the train i was on did not stop at Bedminster and that I probably did this nearly every day. He then took my details.  

Reading the NRCOC:

S19. You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

But:
S30. If you use the Season Ticket to travel beyond the station or zones for which it is valid, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket for that additional part of your journey and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

So my reading of this, is I can carry on doing this, but really do need to buy before I alight. That's frustrating because it removes yet more flexibility! Tbh, travelling by train has become a real drag...

Anyone care to offer an opinion?

If there is an open ticket office at your start station then you must buy the Bedminster-Bristol ticket from there. You cannot be expected to buy this from a Ticket Vending Machine as FGWs machines don't yet allow tickets to be sold from a station other than that where the machine is located.

If there is no open ticket office and you can't buy from the TVM then you have had no opportunity to buy before boarding and you should buy the appropriate Single or Return fare at the earliest opportunity. That may be on board or maybe at the gate line at Bristol Temple Meads. There is no compulsion on you to seek out the conductor on the train, although for peace of mind you may wish to do so.

Whilst s30 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage states you must have a valid ticket for your additional journey, it references s2 which lists the exclusions from liability when there are no suitable ticket buying opportunities at your start station.

The person you spoke with at Bristol Temple Meads was entirely wrong about you needing to be on a service that calls at Bedminster when combining a Season and non-Season ticket.

Finally, could I ask for what reason your details were taken? Where you cautioned and interviewed? If so then I'd consider taking legal advice or at the very least contacting FGW to clarify your situation.

BNM is correct.

FGW Revenue Protection have been dire recently, I've been issued (wrongly) two PFs which are not inline with FGWs discretion policy.

I'd wait for FGWs next move which will either be nothing or a letter asking for your version of events. It's really important that you have someone knowledgeable read your response before you send it. Without realising, you could easily incriminate yourself.

Thank you, both of you for helping.

I don't think anything will happen, he took the details of the season ticket photocard and will probably just ask a colleague in the staff room, who will hopefully put him right.

I suppose I'll just have to get there super early and queue behind the people buying split tickets to Edinburgh via settle for a week next Tuesday and paying with loose change and luncheon vouchers or whatever it is that takes them so long at 8am on a weekday... =p

Sadly that may well have to be. Sorry to say it's quite possible I'd be that person buying split tickets to Edinburgh via Settle! Although I'd probably not purchase with loose change and Luncheon Vouchers. Rail Travel Vouchers maybe.  ;) ;D

There is one small crumb of comfort. FGW's Passenger Charter does say that you shouldn't have to queue for more than 5 minutes at busy times. But, and it's a big but, this doesn't necessarily absolve you of your obligation to buy before you board. This is just a 'stated aim' of FGW and it is not back up by legislation. Queueing times are often difficult to verify after the event and it would be a major hassle to defend a Penalty Fare or Byelaw prosecution without ample evidence of the the time spent queueing.

I've said this before. The deck really is stacked in the favour of the Train Operating Companies when it comes to punishing honest passengers who try their damnedest to buy the appropriate ticket for their needs but find the systems in place, both human and automatic, at fault.

Were you stopped at temple meads? If so it may stick im affraid, as was pointed out the passenger charter is there as guidance and cannot be quoted as a valid reason for not having the ticket. When you say you go time to time, is it not cost effective to buy wsm to bri season?

Im not aware of a discretion policy, where can this be found?

I do not have a copy of an actual document, I have tried to get it, but alas, no TOC (except SE) wants to give me a copy.

Essentially it's a list of valid "excuses" for not getting a PF. This is inline with PF policy and appeal guidelines.

For example, I have a letter saying I cannot be PFd for trying to pay cash at RDG (from RDW when the ticket office is shut).

PF rules allow charging a PF where only part (card only) payment is possible. Policy says that discretion inline with a discretion policy should be used (if it's not, an appeal would be successful).

Examples of this discretion are listed in the PF policy.

May i ask why you think your pf's were issued incorectly then as i have asked and no one seems to be aware of a discretion policy? Im aware that 2 pf's means a report filled out for the 3rd time though.

Very interesting discussion.


I think that is what got me the most, it was the ticket inspector's general attitude. I have a annual season ticket for goodness sake, and do a lot of travel by FGW on top of that. I'm one of their most loyal customers. Most businesses want to strike a good relationship with their customers so they go off and and tell others' about their good experience. What other business does it make sense to treat your customers as potential thieves. I do have a choice, this isn't London, parking in Bristol isn't that hard.

Perhaps pay-by-phone and smartcards will make life easier, if it ever gets here and is practical.

Milky Bar, it was just the guy on the train not one of the gate meanies. 

I was trying to put myself in the shoes of the guy who challenged - "what did he suspect" - and looked up the difference in price on an annual WSM to Temple Mead and to Bedminster season.  To my surprise both came up as 1664.00; is there a "not via BRI" season from Weston to Bedminster at a lower price, has JaminBob been sold a lesser product at the same price and is now having to pay unnecessary extra when he goes into BRI, has the price structure changed since the start of his annual ticket, or have I read the website wrong?

But if you join at yatton it works out ^1 more on an sds

In my opinion, and I'm sure bignosemac will agree, you don't actually need to buy anything from Bedminster to Temple Meads.

The journey is just 71 chains in each direction, making a return trip 1 mile and 62 chains.  That is within 3 miles, therefore doubling back via BRI can be used as the shortest route.

Just break your journey "en-route" at Temple Meads.

(By the way, BDM is actually Bedford Midland)

I concur Brucey. Good spot.

Are you sure about that? I always thought that doubling back was forbidden except where there is an easement.

Doubling back is permitted as part of the shortest route.  A route within 3 miles of the shortest route is also considered to be the shortest route.

Give it a go yourself.  Enter Weston to Bedminster, via Temple Meads into NRE and it'll tell you to buy a Weston to Bedminster single.

I wouldn't necessarily accept what any of the websites chuck out (except if I was using it to argue with staff for something in my favour  ;) )

Is Bedminster part of the Bristol Group? You are allowed to double back within a Group, in which case it would be nothing to do with the three mile rule.

If only it was so simple  ???
For the 06:00 ex-WSM this works, with an SDS of ^6.10
For the 07:08, 07:37, 08:41, the NRE OJP tells you that two tickets are required (total ^8.00)
For the 09:45 onwards, it's back to one ticket, the CDS at ^6.00
...Until 15:10, when it is two tickets again (^ 7.80)
....and a few more glitches until the 06:01 (Saturday) which is 2 tickets...
Why? ??? ???

If NRE says its allowed, then its allowed. Definitive source etc.....

That's only where the group is not your origin or destination though. Bedminster isn't part of Bristol Group anyway, it's only stations Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway inclusive which are. So a journey from Bath Spa to Taunton would you to take a detour Bristol Temple Meads-Bristol Parkway-Bristol Temple Meads but you couldn't travel Bath Spa-Bristol Temple Meads-Bristol Parkway-Lawrence Hill.

Thanks all.

I saw this guy again last week, which was the next time I had to go into BRI. He remembered me and had obviously been put right by someone. Said that it was only 'if i did it a lot it looked iffy' or something like that. A, if i did it often I'd buy a ticket to BRI, and B, if its legal its legal surely?

The whole buying a season to Bedminster and ^breaking journey^ at BRI seems like its taking the mickey a little, wouldn't do it often, but... You really think it would work?