Great Western Coffee Shop

The Office of Rail Regulation has today released it's report into fares and ticketing.

Press release (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.10937):


The full report and ATOC's response can be found here:
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/ticket-complexity-report-june-2012.pdf

ORR's research can be read at:
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/spaft-ticketing-passenger-perceptions.pdf

---

A lot of the points raised in this report has been flagged up in the past by the likes of Passenger Focus and Which? as well as by individuals such as Barry Doe writing in RAIL magazine. ATOC have generally been very dismissive toward these bodies and individuals. A Which? report last year into the complexities of buying and using train tickets was dismissed by ATOC as being, "seriously misleading and misrepresentative" yet it came to some very similar conclusions as those in this ORR report. 

But now the regulator is involved, ATOC are making changes. Funny that.  ::)

Says it all really - 70% didn't really know what Advance tickets meant!

Oh, and how earth shattering, ORR tells TOCs to provide more information about ticket types,yet many customers say the system is too complicated for them to understand.

Why can't ORR tell TOCs to produce a SIMPLE fares system that can be understood by the average man in the street who only wants to know a train fares on the odd occasion that he/she travels. It isn't "rocket science"

That whole report was millions wasted on stating the obvious

I often think that Advance tickets should be renamed.  A lot of people think that Advance tickets are any ticket bought in advance of the day of travel.  You can't really blame them for thinking that.

Although I can't really think of a suggestion for a new name.

I always thought that "Apex" was a snappy name for a fare. Totally undescriptive of the fare validity, but I'm sure people got to know what it meant, and it's not ambiguous in the same way as "advance".

Not necessarily - it's not wasted if some good comes of it, such as notice being taken of issues which we (and Which and others) have gone on about for years, but haven't yet made it on to the agenda of ATOC.   Somehow, I'm reminded of BT when I see certain ATOC responses, in the days that they were desparate to milk as much revenue as they could from the old wired phones before mobile and internet swept over them like a tidal wave.

I know name changes have been tried before, but try:

* Restricted (single specified train only)
* Super Offpeak (trains that are usually very quiet)
* Offpeak (trains that are usually quiet)
* Anytrain (valid on all trains)

Restricted tickets are available for sale in limited numbers, and must be purchased before 6 p.m. on the day prior to travel. They can only be changed for a 10 pound admin fee, and the change can only be made up until that 6 p.m. previous day cutoff. Other tickets can be purchased at any time, and can be upgraded to a more expensive ticket (or another ticket at the same price) for payment of the difference (or no payment).

Online booking engines should produce a .pdf displayable / printable timetable when you click on the "which trains is this valid on?" button.  Showing just one train on a restricted ticket would make it very obvious, and it would help people know the offpeak rules for each ticket type too

I'm the first to agree that the system needs a major overhaul, however, the fact that 70% of people didnt know about the Advance ticketing rules just proves how ignorant people can be, i bet if there was a part of the conditions that stated "free money for every advance ticket holder" then they would read that bit! Advance tickets are the one ticket that isn't complicated and are plain and simple, like it actually says on the bottom right hand corner of the ticket "BOOKED TRAIN ONLY".

If you read the report you will find that the mistake being made most frequently was the other way round.  People thinking that because they bought their ticket in advance, it was an advance ticket and therefore tied to a particular train. 

In industries that think of the people who use their services as customers and for whom customer service is taken seriously, do not right-off customers who have not understood what was said as ignorant - they try and communicate better!

And in case you think this is new fangled stuff, remember the phrase the customer is never wrong? It is over 100 years old http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/106700.html (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/106700.html)

The ORR report also says:

All this reminds me of an exchange on another topic on this board http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=9568.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=9568.0)

Edited to correct typos

How about 'Restricted' or 'Limited'? Or even 'Non-Refundable'?

Obviously, people who use The Trainline or derived systems, have a worse experience of buying tickets. On WebITS, you can basically do this already. Plus you don't have to reserve a seat when you buy a ticket.

There should be 4 levels of ticket, with First and Second class of each.

Standard - valid on all trains
Saver - valid after 9.30 (except for journeys over 50 miles, then valid anytime)
Super saver - optional fare for a flow; valid on quieter trains only
Booked train only (limited)

So, you'd be able to get a cheaper Saver and be able to travel on any rush hour service from Didcot Parkway to London, but have to get a more expensive Standard ticket if you wanted to use the much inferior commuter trains from the next station up the line, Cholsey?   :o

Hmmmm... I was try to think of something like you had on long distance cross country routes before XC added restrictions. Perhaps 100 miles?

I looked for synonyms of "restricted".  And amongst the suggested alternatives are clandestine, controlled, tethered and shackled.

I actually quite like "tethered" as it indicates tied to a particular train.

What to call an Advance ticket is an interesting topic.

APEX was for those that remember was a special airline fare, the days before squeasy jet, which was cheaper but meant you had to stay over a Saturday night at your destination. I presume BR adopted it from teh airlines.

What ever you call it one way would be to put the train on which it is valid on the ticket. I attach a copy of DB E ticket I used last year year from Wernigerode to Berlin cut down which included an ICE from Braunschweig which is clearly stated on the ticket.

Online-Ticket
Bitte auf A4 ausdrucken
ICE Fahrkarte
G^ltigkeit: ab 13.02.2011
Gilt nur f^r eingetragene Z^ge und Reisetage (Zugbindung). *NV*: Gilt in
Nahverkehrsz^gen auf eingetragenen Strecken je Fahrt 1 Tag bis Folgetag 10 Uhr
Sparpreis (Einfache Fahrt)
Klasse: 1
Erw: 1
Hinfahrt: Wernigerode Berlin, mit ICE, (N-SP6649)
^ber: NV*BS-Hbf 11:00 ICE694
Umtausch/Erstattung 15 EURO; ab dem 1. Geltungstag ausgeschlossen
Zahlungspositionen und Preis
Positionen Preis MwSt (D) 19% MwSt (D) 7%
ICE Fahrkarte 1 49,00^ 49,00^ 7,82^
Reservierung 1 3,50^ 3,50^ 0,56^
Summe 52,50^ 52,50^ 8,38^
Kreditkartenzahlung
Betrag 52,50^ VU-Nr 4556695619 Transaktions-Nr 882483
Datum 14.01.2011 Gen-Nr 071834
Ihre Kreditkarte wurde mit dem oben genannten Betrag belastet. Die Buchung Ihres
Online-Tickets erfolgte am 14.01.2011. DB Fernverkehr AG/DB Regio AG,
Stephensonstr. 1, 60326 Frankfurt, Steuernummer: 045 231 28552.
Barcode bitte nicht knicken!
Hinfahrt:
Zertifikat: 20W8 PX2Q J1G
G^ltig ab: 13.02.2011
Zangenabdruck
Mr. John Fowler
ID-Karte: MasterCard 4428
Auftragsnummer: NWS1YC
Ihre Reiseverbindung und Reservierung Hinfahrt am 13.02.2011
Halt Datum Zeit Gleis Fahrt Reservierung
Wernigerode 13.02. ab 09:18 2 Salzgitter-Ringelh. 13.02. an 10:17 2 RE 3606
Salzgitter-Ringelh. 13.02. ab 10:29 7 Braunschweig Hbf 13.02. an 10:51 5 RB 14374
Braunschweig Hbf 13.02. ab 11:00 7 Berlin Hbf 13.02. an 12:20 11
ICE 694 1 Sitzplatz, Wg. 12, Pl. 106, 1 Fenster, Abteil, Nichtraucher,
Ruhebereich gungen der DB AG bzw. besondere Regelungen f^r bestimmte Strecken und Angebote (z.B. innerhalb von Verkehrsverb^nden, Tarifgemeinschaften, L^ndertarife). Mehr Information gibt es unter www.bahn.de/onlineticket. Wir danken Ihnen f^r Ihre Buchung und w^nschen Ihnen eine angenehme Reise!
Aktuelle
Infos aufs
Handy!
Fahrpl^ne, P^nktlichkeit,
Ticketbuchung und mehr!
m.bahn.de
NWS1YC Seite 1 / 1

Please print your online ticket in A4 format. Your ticket will not be accepted on the
train if you only present it in electronic form (e.g. on a Notebook).

Please take the identification card (BahnCard, credit card, ec card or identity card)
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If your online ticket also states +City or City mobile, you can use local public transport
to travel from your destination station to your fi nal destination in the city area free of
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change or cancel your online tickets (depending on the fare). Unfortunately, such
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14 ct/min from German landline phones via Vodaphone, max. 42 ct/min for mobile phones).
In addition, the toll-free BahnBau phone on +49 (0) 800-5 99 66 55 provides information
about timetable changes caused by work on the lines.

We wish you a pleasant journey!
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www.bahn.de/umweltmobilcheck. This information is also available in various other languages at
www.bahn.de/onlineticketinfo.
Wir w^nschen Ihnen eine gute Reise! Bahnfahren sch^tzt Klima und Umwelt. Berechnen Sie Ihren pers^nlichen Beitrag unter
e Informationen gibt es auch in verschiedenen Fremdsprachen unter www.bahn.de/onlineticketinfo.
i would have thoguht that makes it pretty clear that it would only be valid on ICE694 although I didn't have to use the suggested iternery to get to Braunschweig.

I have another one from Berlin to Gorlitz which was soley on local trains and although there is an itinery printed I didn't actually travel on the trains suggested. No problems.

That would mean that it's OK for Chippenham commuters to fork out for a standard ticket to London, whereas their friends just down the road in Bath Spa get all the benefits of cheap travel any time they want in the peaks?

I'd guess that one of the major reasons for this problem is split-ticketing. Each stretch of line should have a pence-per-mile associated with it, which would vary depending on peak times etc. but the costs would be the same no matter what the origin/destonation is (and the peak rate would automatically only be applied to the part of the journey which is peak). This might be difficult when you have a ticket that allows travel over multiple permitted routes, but what on earth is route 'any permitted' anyway? Unless passengers choose to restrict themselves to an 'Advance' (booked-train only, agreed it is a silly name), they may be paying for a fully-flexible any-permited route ticket but are likely only aware of one or two obvious valid routes, so are paying for more flexibility of route than they actually need.

For my recent rail exploration, I spent a whole day trying to find good splits to avoid the full cost of the journey, which was frighteningly expensive. I saved quite a bit (partly because there were advances available for parts of the return trip, but not altogether).

Some other problems/ideas with the fare system:

• Return tickets only seem to come in Day Return and 'any day within a month' return forms, again paying for more flexibility than you might need (introduce a 'named days only' return which is valid on one specified day outbound, and one specified day inbound)
• Single fares should be reduced to be much closer to half the price of the equivalent 'named days only' return where possible (eg. a return could be 10% less than the cost of two singles).
• A discount for buying 'named days only' returns, and singles, in advance might be a good idea
• A return/single fare, restricted to booked-train-only, but available on the day of travel (perhaps even on the train, especially in areas where they are no ticket offices) costing somewhere between the current 'Advance' and a flexible ticket might be useful. Basicly, there is a lack of cheap options that can be purchased on the day if you are willing to restrict yourself to certain trains.
  

The best way of implementing some of the above ideas might be to have the different ticket types, with a discount for buying in advance on any ticket except fully-flexible ones.

---------------------------------
Ticket types could be:

• AnyTrain
• Off-Peak
• Tethered (nice one grahame)

The first two would be available in:

• Single
• Flexi-Return (return travel any day within one month)
• Day Return
• Standard Return (outward travel on specified day, return travel on specified day)

The service a Tethered ticket is valid on should be printed on the reverse of the ticket, so that a reservation can be optional (and save card by not printing a 'reservation' when the service does not offer reservations). Tethered tickets could also be available as a return (basiclly two Tethered singles, but costing marginly less than buying two Tethered singles).

Does this mean we can get rid of ticket barriers and have extra revenue protection staff on trains instead? I expect a print-at-home ticket on floppy paper is unlikely to work in a ticket gate machine like the stiff card tickets issued by guards, ticket offices and ticket machines do.

EC installed barcode scanners onto their ticket gates at a number of stations (e.g. Leeds and Grantham).

Barcode scanners rarely work, and print quality is dubious. Print at home tickets should be axed IMO as I'm sure they are easier to forge.

Why not just have single tickets? (priced at half the current return)
These tickets are valid on one day only. If ticket buying was simple and quick, savvy commuters could buy the tickets on their phones to avoid queuing.

There would be little point to period return tickets if singles were half the price. Obviously you could buy a return, but you specify thr day and it is double the price of a single. If you don't know when you're coming back, just get a single.

Let's just keep it simple!

You're sure are you? Have you seen one? They have numerous security features on them. And that's in addition to always being printed with the name of the purchaser and requiring ID to be shown, usually the debit/credit card used to make the transaction.

Finally, they don't have barcodes on them. They use QR codes.

No - the knowledgable Chippenhamite would buy a ticket to London FIELDS, over 100 miles, at 61.50, rather than to London at 73.00 ...  ;D

The idea of always having cheap tickets available on all trains on a particular journey, at any length of journey, is flawed and would replace one system that's in a degree of disrepute with another that would have a degree of disrepute.  What would the point be in offering a standard fare if no-one ever bought it (except perhaps people who were incorrectly ticketed and encountered a member of staff)

Indeed, and that was my point at questioning Btline's simple fare structure.  It simply wouldn't be workable.  The whole fares system is in a mess, but cleaning it up would take a hell of a lot more work to make it workable than having a nationwide system based on distance as he suggested, and whatever is done there will still be anomalies/discrepancies leading to unfair fares.  However, something has to be done!

I would suggest the only way forward is to do a trial or series of trials on a small area of a small franchise to see what might work.  The franchise would be let on a tightly controlled basis by the DfT and revenue for the TOC would need to be guaranteed (so the TOC wouldn't potentially lose out on a whole heap of revenue, or conversely make loads more money).  It would almost be taking one step back to make two steps forward, but I can't see any system being introduced nationwide without the TOC's and DfT being comfortable with what the implications might be.

Oh dear. Someone really ought to tell the airline industry where they're in near-universal use for scanning boarding passes, regardless of whether they are "print at home" or airport issued. Most airline boarding passes don't even have a magnetic stripe on the back anymore, and I have never seen a boarding pass not scan properly, even when the print quality has sometimes looked a bit iffy.

I'd like to see the current system fixed of its bugs and anomalies as a first stage toward any wholesale changes. Although for purely selfish reasons I'm generally happy with the prices I pay for my journeys. That's because I have the time and inclination to find the best fare, be that a through ticket, split ticket, or using the Conditions of Carriage and Routeing Guide.

One anomaly I noticed today. 0830 Bristol TM - London Paddington on Weds 13th June:

Advance Purchase, booked train only, no refunds - ^48.50
Off Peak Single, any train after 0830, break of journey, ending short, differing routes all allowed. Partially refundable - ^39.00

So that's an extra ^9.50 for less flexibility.  ::)

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/fgw1.jpg)

To my mind that Advance Purchase ticket should not even be on offer lest someone accidentally purchase it. But then I'm sure, rather than fix the anomaly, FGW are happy to trouser the extra ^9.50 should a customer purchase the dearer less flexible ticket.

Re home printed tickets. Both my DB tickets came as attached .pdf file on the acknowledge email.

I printed them out on a Canon Ink Jetand  as someone posted they have one of squares of dots on them. They were read succesfully on 3 trains 2 Berlin Gorlitz 3 Wernigerode Berlin. Showed my card which was swiped in the same machine. Plus a time train stamp on ticket.

No problems but then DB don't have gates!

I used a bar code ticket once at a major station. The gate-line attendant ushered me through before I had chance to try it. He said "they never work".. "have so much trouble..." etc. Print at home will have varying quality. I am pretty sure that a wizz kid with a computer could easily knock up a genuine looking forged ticket!

My fares suggestion was only that. I understand that there will exceptions.

My distance scenario was to prevent the XC situation where commuter are fleeced for hundreds on long distance services (e.g. from Devon to Cheshire).

I have a CT timetable from 2004(?) which says that Savers had no time restrictions and they were generally valid on routes longer than 50(?) miles. That's what I based it on.

If our longer distance trains were 8/9/10 car instead of 4/3/2 car (after IEP?), there would be less of a problem of longer distance passengers taking up commuter space, which is why I believe restrictions have gradually crept in as passenger numbers grew.

But the idea is that the barcode is checked against a database.  If the quality is poor, then the code should be manually entered and checked.

I've seen 2D barcodes that are very low quality which scan perfectly well on a mobile phone camera.  With a high resolution, laser based barcode scanner, there should be even less problem reading them.  Airlines manage without any problems.

Which is equally true for common stock.

There are actually more security features on print@home tickets than on your bog standard orange ticket. There's the QR code, Customer Reference Number, an image designed to be difficult to scan/photocopy, Customer's Name and the last four digits of the credit/debit card used to make the purchase.

Even a standard Megatrain ticket is actually very secure.  There is nothing to print, just a reference number to note (whether on a phone screen or paper).

The reference is in this format: 10-1167-261111-MT1b-1404-HAV-WAT
As you've probably guessed, this is a real reference number for the 1404 service from Havant to Waterloo on 26/11/11.

The barrier staff get a printout of reference numbers, which they mark off as presented.  Same on board the train with the guard.

Each reference number can only be used once as it is always marked off the list.  There are check digits in the reference number, so you can't even guess a reference unless you know the algorithm.

The advantage of a barcode (whether 2D or 1D) is that they can be checked much more quickly, i.e. the code doesn't need to be entered or crossed off.

When I used a print at home ticket, it was never scanned.

The guard (normally bewildered by such a ticket in my experience) just looks at it, checks it matches the ID/credit card and moves on. If there are problems at barriers you just get ushered through,

So as I said, a whizz kid could easily knock one up! Much easier than an orange ticket.

So, because this mythical whizz-kid can possibly forge a print@home train ticket they should be got rid of?

Let's get rid of common stock, that can be forged. Let's do away with smart cards, they can be circumvented.

Then there's cash, that can be forged. Or what about debit/credit cards, they can be cloned.

Restricting choice because of the actions of a very very small minority is not the answer. They'll likely get caught anyway.

And these guards? Bewildered by your ticket yet know to check it matched the ID. Which is what should be done.

print@home offers convenience and should be more widely available, not done away with just because it may be forged (like any other ticket medium) or may not open a barrier automatically. Wider adoption will see wider installation of barriers able to read the printed QR code.

print@home tickets seem to be pretty widely used on East Coast now, my experience with them is that they will scan the barcode and check the ID. When I used a print@home ticket on Chiltern though the onboard staff just looked at it with no checks at all, but they did scan fine on the barcode scanner at Marylebone, even if only a couple of gates have the scanners.

The Transport Select Committee is discussing fares today.  Several interesting witnesses.  You can watch it on: http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11196&wfs=true (http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11196&wfs=true)

Following the link posted by IndustryInsider will now give you a recording of this morning's proceedings in the 'Transport Committee takes evidence on rail fares and branch line services' debate.

If you are interested in fares and ticketing it's well worth a watch.

I managed to watch it all live!

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11196&wfs=true

As a follow up to this most recent Transport Select Committee hearing, I've just been watching other recent TSC debates.

The one from 19th of June 'starring' Bob Crow starts with him answering the first question from the chairperson: (paraphrased) "How can the costs of (rail) privatisation be addressed?"

His answer, and the first words he utters after sitting down, are "Nationalise them", which he says three times.  ::)

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=10969 Forward to 11:48:45 on the embedded video.