Great Western Coffee Shop

I regularly travel between Exmouth and Exeter Central on the 0854 service. I possess a Devon and Cornwall Railcard.
Today, on reaching the station about 5 minutes before the train was due to depart I encountered a queue about 12 deep from the one ticket office that was open. There is normally another member of staff selling tickets by the entrance but his position was closed.
I tried the ticket machine but that rejected my coins.
Faced with missing my train to work I boarded anyway, resolving to buy a ticket from the Conductor.
At this point 2 members of staff got on the train whom I assume are revenue collectors. I approached one of them immediately and asked to buy a ticket, showing my railcard. I was told I was too late and should have bought one before getting on the train.The individual to whom I spoke was not very polite.
I then went to the back of the train and knocked on the door, as I could see the Conductor who was engaged in a conversation with another member of staff.
He opened the door slightly but on hearing my request he said I was too late and should have bought a ticket earlier. I reminded him that I could not have done so because of the queue, and because the ticket machine had rejected my coins.
Eventually he said he would sell me a ticket when he came down the train.
I would have refused to pay any penalty fare that was levied as I had done all that I could to purchase a ticket, short of missing the train completely.
I mention this because of an earlier post about some persons receiving penalty fares. Initially I was sceptical of their excuse but I have a great deal more sympathy now.

Was the train on the move at this point, the conditions of carriage state that you should purchase a ticket before you travel, not before you get on the train, despite what 'buy before you board' posters may say. Unless you are in a Compulsory Ticket Area I don't see that you've done anything wrong.

No, it had not started the journey.

If you arrive at a station in good time to catch your train, and you are unable to purchase a ticket before the train leaves in spite of making all reasonable efforts to do so, I think you are morally in the right to board the train without a ticket, provided that you continue to make all reasonable efforts to purchase a ticket.

But what is "good time" to catch a train?   Legally, I suspect that you're supposed to allow for this sort of thing:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/bhhome0.jpg)

but you were, I suspect, completely within your rights to board the stationary train and look for another alternative means of getting a ticket.

In summary, you failed to purchase a ticket before you boarded (by passing a payment option) but the train was stationary.

Failure to pay [or appeal] a PF if one was issued (on the day or later) would have been an even more foolish move.


Now, looking at the Penalty Fare Rules, it says quite clearly:
I can see nothing about stationary trains in either the conditions of carriage or the penalty fares rules. I'm happy for someone to provide evidence to the contrary, but if you were on a Penalty Fares Train and you had sufficient chance to pay, you could have been charged a penalty fare.
To add to this, The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994 says nothing about penalty fares not being charged on stationary (at the platform) trains.


Byelaws
Again, I can find nothing to the contradict that this applies on a stationary train. Happy to be proved wrong.


The fact you passed an opportunity to pay means you also could have been prosecuted for a Section 5 RoRA offence, the onus is on the passenger to pay at the earliest opportunity, a queue doesn't change that fact.


The obvious get out clause here is:
So ask to board and purchase a ticket, before you actually board!

Hopefully Bignosemac will be along shortly to give us a definitive answer!

As mentioned above, you are only in the wrong if the train has started to move, which in this case it had not. 

There are also guidelines set out in the rules under which operators must run penalty fares schemes that allowance must be made if ticket purchasing facilities do not exist, or are out of use, or if excessive waiting times are resulting. However, despite some searching I can't find these rules on the dft web site, which is where they used to be.

As an example a couple of days ago the ticket office was closed at Nailsea and one of the two machines was out of service. Thus the queues for the sole remaining machine were very long. Given FGW was only providing one third of the normal capacity, they would be on shaky ground if they had tried to impose any penalty fares that morning for pax boarding at NLS.

Penalty Fares Rules 2002

The two preceeding posts from John R and EBrown sum up pretty much what I would've initially said and linked to.

To add. From FGW's Passenger Charter (http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Customer-services/~/media/PDF/About%20us/Passenger%20charter/Passengers%20Charter%20Booklet%20B_006_0409%20FOR%20WEB.pdf):


How you successfully argue, should you be challenged by an RPI, after deciding not to continue queueing is, however, not clear cut. If the RPI continues with the issue of a Penalty Fare or decides on an interview under caution, you could well be facing weeks of uncertainty and correspondence in an attempt to 'clear your name'.

Sadly, the legislation (Penalty Fares Rules, Regulation of Railways Act 1889 and Railway Byelaws) is, in my opinion, unfairly stacked in Train Operating Companies' favour.

It's difficult to offer good advice that covers all circumstances. Each case of a Penalty Fare, notice of intention to prosecute etc, needs to be addressed on its own merits. Hypothetical situations are of little use.

With the dice loaded in the TOCs favour all I can offer by way of advice is to gather as much evidence as possible at the time you queued and gave up waiting. Not ideal, and I can't really agree with grahame that you may be morally in the right to give up queueing. The legislation doesn't really allow for someone's moral standpoint.

In reality this is true about waiting times etc BUT boarding the train without a ticket at a station no matter the ques or facilities provided put you in breach of byelaw 18.1 (in any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling unless he has with him a valid ticket entiltling him to travel). Its worth remembering aswell that turning down the penalty fare will result in prosecution for the byelaw offence which are strict liability matters and the FGW would not have to prove much as the passenger didnt have a ticket.

Also Exmouth has 2 TVM and selling window.

Indeed. Strict Liability.

It's very strict and you are likely very liable.

And that is despite the wording regarding queueing times in a TOCs Passenger Charter.

Arguably, without cast iron evidence of the time you spent queueing, you may well be on shaky ground legally.

A lot of what is written in Passenger Charters is not legally binding.....

... So the conclusion is that if you don't want to miss the train, you should allow 10/15/xxx minutes for the fallibility of the station operator...which makes a nonsense of efforts to speed up journey times.

The rules may be stacked in favour of the rail companies, but their competiveness is not.

Or, ask a member of staff to board the train; you are, then, clearly covered.

I took some advice from a wiser man than myself.

While you cannot be PFd as the To station is the same as the From station (until the moment the train moves) [unless CTA]. Byelaw 18.1 and Sec 5 RoRA still applies.

Well, some interesting replies to my post but unfortunately some of you are not correct. I took the opportunity of researching this subject. Penalty Fares are not enforceable unless a court orders it. Apparently there have been no reported cases of any train company issuing proceedings over a penalty fare-indeed the last thing the train companies want is for their rather dubious policy to be exposed in this way. The following may assist others in this situation:-

1. Obviously make a reasonable attempt to buy a ticket-however you do not have to wait in a long queue and miss your train (Rule 8) 
2. Check that the person demanding a PF is an authorised collector. Apparently they are obliged to carry i/d confirming this.
3. Section 8 (2) of the Penalty Fare Rules 2002 gives you the right to pay only the full single fare for the journey, which means that, for example, any railcard discounts would not be available to you.
4. It is not a good idea to pay the fare and hope to appeal it later. Apparently most train companies use the 'Independant Penalty Fares Appeals Service' which is in fact owned and staffed by a train company! Hardly independant then...
5. If asked you must provide a correct name and address. This is the one and only part of the process where a criminal sanction could be applied for providing incorrect details.
6. When the collector gives you a form check it is correct. If it is not then the train company has no chance of collecting a PF.
7. When a letter demanding payment turns up, write back explaining why you were unable to buy a ticket.
8. Penalty Fares are a CIVIL, not criminal, matter, except where stated above.

Having said all of this, everyone, without exception, should buy a ticket if they reasonably can.

you are both correct and incorrect, yes the amount of the Penalty fare can only be retrieved through the civil court, HOWEVER, if a PF is not paid within the 21 days given, then the Penalty fare is CANCELLED and then the passenger will be taken to court contrary to railway byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) which ARE enforceable through the court, a Penalty fare is a civil remedy for a byelaw offence, as already pointed out, an inspector does not have to issue a Penalty Fare and can report the person under the above byelaws instead.

And before you say it, yes the PF rules do allow for the PF to be cancelled by the TOC at ANY time, so technically the PF can even be refunded if paid and then a prosecution brought under railway byelaws, it is not unheard of for a prosecution to be brought under section 5.3(a) of the regulation of railways act 1889 as there is case law proving that walking past an open ticket office or machine is deemed as intent to avoid payment as the the law states "......without previously paying his fare....".

Also, what is the issue? Exmouth has a ticket office and TWO TVM's!

P.S. the case law is Corbyn v Saunders I think it was 1976?

Please be specific, it's all well and good saying "some of you are wrong" but not elaborating means we can't learn from our mistakes.


What? The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994 clearly state:

Yes, and produce it on request. Rule 5(4) I believe.

3That is a minimum payment towards the penalty fare where necessary (i.e. You cannot produce ID of some form to confirm your address)

It happens to be in the same office as South Eastern Railway. Appeals cost the TOC ^8, so it's worth appealing just if you want to "stick it to the man".

Correct.

I'd be careful doing that, by saying "I didn't buy a ticket because of the queues" you have then admitted a strict liability offence (Byelaw 18) and also given evidence towards Sec 5 RoRA prosecutions.

Correct.

In Corbyn v Saunders, actually in 1978 so a good guess, the defendant effectively purchased a short fare for his journey, and upon arrival at the destination station handed the ticket inspector the short ticket and a note saying he would pay the remainder of the fare on demand. It was held that intending to pay the fare later on demand was not an intent to pay the fare for the purposes of s5(3) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. It states in the judgment that it is not a defence to state that you intended to pay if you were tracked down. Plenty of case law states you are still travelling on the railway whilst you remain on railway property, so you can be guilty of the offence at the ticket barrier at the end for example, can't find anything that states that walking past an open ticket office or machine infers intent.

Yes, a prosecution under the RoRA - it was 1978 I think.

Knew it was 19 seventy something  ??? I didnt even bother to read the numbered points at the end of the post by julian as they are just copied and pasted from the Evening Standard article from a few years back which is dangerous advice to follow bear in mind good old Byelaw 18, for which no intent is required! As for the contents of Corbyn v Saunders I appear to have got the content slightly wrong but I know of some RPI's who have managed, through their questioning, to get intent from interviews that started as a straight forward byelaw!  ;)

Julian,

1. What is this (rule 8 ) you refer too? There is no primary legislation that refers to queueing time, merely Passenger Charter 'aims'.
2. Agreed.
3. Not wholly correct. The full undiscounted single must be paid for the journey you plan to make, plus the balance of the Penalty Fare within 21 days. As vacman says the TOC reserves the right to cancel the PF and proceed with byelaw or criminal prosecution.
4. That's up to the individual. Appeals do succeed. IPFAS satisfies the 'independence' test set out in the Penalty Fares Policy drawn up by the Strategic Rail Authority in 2002 and now overseen by the DfT. (See para. 4.40 of this document (https://www.ircas.co.uk/docs/SRA%20-%20Penalty%20Fare%20Policy%202002.pdf))
5. I agree on the point about providing a name and address. But failure to provide as well as incorrect details is a criminal offence. Also this is not the only part of the process that may lead to criminal sanction. As already mentioned a PF can be cancelled and a byelaw or RRA prosecution persued.
6. Agree. But you rather contradict your point 4. Errors made on a PF form have led to successful appeals.
7. So, do appeal then?
8. See points 3 and 5.

I concur with your sentiment about always buying a ticket before boarding if you reasonably can. But 'reasonableness' is subjective and may not stop a Penalty Fare being issued.

Corbyn v Saunders certainly interprets an intent to avoid payment of fare quite loosely, I imagine it is argued in court that it extends to chancers, people who'll walk past the ticket office or machine but then try and pay the guard. It does seem that that point has never been appealed or at least appealed in a reported case.

As you say the legal precedent for S.5 prosecution under RoRA(1889) is Corbyn! Passing an opportunity to pay at an open window was deemed, on appeal, to adequately engage S.5. [Extracted from Rail Forums]

It seems you have got a bit confused, failing to provide your name and address having failed to produce a valid ticket is the only time you can be detained by a railway officer. That's under S5(2) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Reasonable force may be used to detain somebody who does not provide their name and address as well, such as in Moberly v Alsop in 1992 where a "leading railway" (not sure what the equivilant is nowadays, but they were working on a ticket barrier) grabbed a woman by the sleeve to do so.

Agreed, the penalty fare rules make no reference to queuing times if you read Section 7 (Reasons/Conditions not  to charge a PF)

The PF Policy does. The most relevant part is this:

For ease of reference in this debate:

Penalty Fares Rules: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/rail-penalty-fares/rail-penalty-fares-rules.pdf

Penalty Fares Policy: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/rail-penalty-fares/rail-penalty-fares-policy.pdf

Penalty Fares Legislation: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/576/contents/made

Railway Byelaws: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws.pdf

Regulation of Railways Act 1889: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/contents