Great Western Coffee Shop

I've learnt that the super off peak fares from Cornwall to  London are going up again in May.
Example  Truro - London currently ^94 will be ^97.50,  >:(   10% since September in two rises
That's all I've got at the mo but others might want to investigate their own fares

Hmm.... interesting. The SVR is going up from ^117 to ^122 as well.

This can't be right. One of those is regulated and both also went up in January.

Before Jan 2012: SSR ^89 SVR ^111
Jan 2012 - May 2012: SSR ^94 (5.62% increase) SVR ^117 (5.4%)
May 2012 onward: SSR ^97.50 (3.72%) SVR ^122 (4.27%)

Total increase from prior to January 2012: SSR 9.55%, SVR 9.91%.

I'm not sure which of the Truro to London fares is regulated, but as both the Off Peaks will have, come May 20th, risen by nearly 10% since December I can't understand how FGW are getting away with a second increase beyond the once a year RPI+x% formula, which this January was a maximum of 6%.

Other fares, both SSR and SVR from Cornwall and Devon destinations to London are also increasing.

Strange. I've asked FGW via Facebook what's going on.

Back in 2009 Super Off Peak fares on HSS routes were introduced at the same price as the Off Peak fares at the time.  The Off Peak fares were hiked by about 20% so I would think that in this case it's the Super Off Peak that is the regulated fare.

These shocking price rises are unjustified and are purely designed to fleece commuters even more at a time of recession. >:(

I  very much doubt commuters will be affected as its super off-peak.

Ah: he got you there, Btline!  ;) :D ;D

I expect there are plenty of "regular travellers" who travel on SOP tickets. 8)

I want to know which fares have come down to balance the books! >:(

They've probably reduced some little used fare like an SOR from Chapleton to Coombe junction to balance the books.

That can't be done. Anytime Returns can't be in the same 'basket' as regulated (Super) Off Peak fares. For the record the Off Peak Return (SVR) between Chapleton - Coombe, which is the regulated fare on that flow, remains unchanged post May 20th.


What's a SOP ticket? Do you mean SSR?  ;)

Can or can't? ???

That's obviously why FGW hasn't axed these little used stations, as it gives them the opportunity to cash in elsewhere. I'm fuming, someone tell the Mail...
No doubt Finstock to just about anywhere has been wacked up over the years... >:( >:( >:(

You got me.  :-[

I, of course, meant 'can't'.

No reply, or even acknowledgement, as yet from FGW via twitter or Facebook. Awaiting the response to my email.

I will give FGW an opportunity to explain these fares increases. I can't quite believe they are doing anything that goes against the rules for regulated fares. There's probably some legitimate reason that allows regulated fares to increase twice in 5 months, but I've not found it. I suspect 'fares baskets' may be somehow involved.

However, should I get no response, or obfuscation, from FGW then I may consider emailing the news desks of various westcountry newspapers.

Fare baskets are set in proportion to traffic levels, so little used flows have little effect on the fares basket. Hard to find references and descriptions, but there's an old one at http://www.jrtr.net/jrtr38/f41_smi.html . And indeed I think I've seen reference to the least used 5% of fares being excluded from calculations in some franchises in order to reduce the complexity of the calculation further.   I'm not sure if that applies to FGW.

Either way, Btline, I'm not sure how little used stations can have a significant effect on the fares basket and provide an opportunity to cash in. Can you explain?

I meant reducing fares at little used stations to jack up fares on heavier used lines to balance the fares basket.

But it sounds like it can't be done...

Yep - you were thinking of the "Spaghetti and Baked Beans" trick.  In 1969, both cost tenpence ha'penny a tin from Heinz.  The the ha'penny was withdrawn, and I remember seeing the Heinz spokesman on TV saying it wouldn't stoke inflation, as they had put tined Spaghetti down in price (10d) to balance the increase put on beans to 11d.  Of course, he neglected to say that a lot more beans are sold that spaghetti. Never forgotten that lesson  ;)

Interesting comment, Graham.  I didn't realise that the pre-decimal halfpenny was abandoned a couple of years before decimalisation; I remember the decimal halfpenny subsequently being abandoned in 1984.

How the BBC reports it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/jersey/4085916.stm
Quote But Tim Bowcock, from First Great Western, said: "We run high-speed long-distance trains which tend to use more fuel than slower, more local services so perhaps we are more greatly affected than other operators by increases in fuel prices, which have gone up by up to 50%.Hmmm.                                                                   

You mean "reported it". That story is dated 12 June 2005.  ::)

OOps Sorry the link came from another current rail forum.Should have looked closer before I leaped as it were.

I've now had a response from Jo at FGW via Facebook to my query regarding this second increase in five months of Super Off-Peak and Off-Peak fares from Devon and Cornwall to London.


As I suspected, a manipulation of the 'fares basket' rules allows this second increase. Whether the good folks of Devon & Cornwall will agree that fares increasing by 10% in 5 months represents 'good value' is probably worthy of further debate.....  ::)

Viewed in isolation the fares don't appear that good value but when you compare them with almost any other long distance walk up fare in to London they look like rather good value.

The actual make up of a particular 'fares basket' is not information in the public domain and this is probably due to being commercially sensitive.

I'm wondering though whether FGW could not have made smaller increases across a wider range of fares on their network rather than limiting the increases to fares to/from Devon and Cornwall....

The selective fare rises in Devon and Cornwall would be acceptable if we were getting new trains and electrification like the rest of the franchise but we are not are we,just ageing HST trains running on a stagnating railway.New blood is definitely needed on this franchise now.

I think I'd much rather an HST for a long distance HST than the 'replacement' bi-mode IEP, lovely underfloor engines for the 5 hour trip from Penzance to London in a nice 153-width saloon.

Many would much rather see that "political" train the IEP binned and replaced with say a much more cost effective non-tilting Pendolino and more Great Western electrification but of course we all know that the IEP project has been one big fiddle from start to finish within the Dft and when push comes to shove First Group have to go along with all those fiddles dont they.The simple fact is that had British rail survived and been publically funded to the same high level as say FGW I am sure by now we would have had widespread electrification and APT,British Rails 155mph capable tilting HST replacement in operation by now.The HST was only ever meant to be a stop gap not a permanent solution until the APT came along in fleet service.Instead we have above inflation rises in ticket prices now 2 or3 times a year for what is set to become under First Group a second rate British Rail era rail service in the South West.Clearly new blood is desperately needed on the Great Western franchise now if the South West is not to be left high and dry.

You need Virgin Trains or a Chiltern incarnation.

If only VT had got the East Coast and we'll have no more bottlenecks on that line.
The only reason B'ham to Derby is 125 mph is VT pushing for it.

Are XC campaigning for 125 mph B'ham to Bristol? No.

No, but line speed increases are planned for that route by Network Rail, between Westerleigh and Yate for example. There are also increases planned between Bristol and Bridgwater, including 125mph running, which will be of great benefit to XC.


Of the bidders for the Greater Western franchise, one (Stagecoach) is 49% owner of Virgin and another (Arriva UK) is full owner of Chiltern....

As for a 'Chiltern incarnation', I'm not sure I'd want a company that introduces a 'simplified' fares structure on its core route to attract new custom and then, once it's got that custom, increases prices by over 25% in the space of 8 months.

Yes but it's the people in Chiltern not the company that have been the inspiration.

Had is not been for Adrian Shooter, Warwick Parkway would never have happened. He was told (by the "powers that be") a station was too expensive as it would need a new underpass. So he drove to the site himself, saw that it was all lies as there was a (cattle access underpass there) and got the station built.

As for the XC routes, good news - but huge swathes of the line could be upgraded by upgrading the half barrier level crossings. The track through Worcestershire is dead straight.

And damn hilly. From Birmingham to Cheltenham 125mph is feasible. Not so sure in the other direction, even with the full beans applied, that a Voyager can get to, or keep to, top speed for any great duration.

Would it really be justifiable to increase line speeds to 125mph on this stretch when the chances of getting to that speed for any length of time sufficient to improve journey times can only realistically be achieved in one direction?

Apart from the Lickey incline then...

I'm still a bit confused as to how FGW could increase regulated fares for Devon and Cornwall to/from Reading/London Paddington.

The increases in January were, across the board on HSS flows, RPI+1%, or thereabouts. Devon and Cornwall has just seen another 3.5% increase on average on these flows.

The 'basket' rules allow for 5% above the the RPI+1% on individual flows as long as the basket as a whole doesn't increase above RPI+1%. With every regulated fare on HSS services in FGW land to/from Reading/London Paddington increasing by RPI+1% in January I'm struggling to see where the wriggle room was for FGW to increase the flows to/from Devon and Cornwall by a further 3.5% on average.

So, by my reckoning, there would have to have been some fares that didn't increase in January or some fares that came down in price.

Now.... FGW have introduced a new 'flow' on May 20th. 'Via Newbury'. For stations east of Castle Cary and in Wiltshire. (Bruton, Frome, Westbury, Trowbridge, Bradford-on-Avon, Avoncliff, Freshford) This new 'flow' now has fares priced cheaper (by as much as 25%) than the previously only available 'Any Permitted'.

One wonders.... is this the manipulation that has allowed the 'fares basket' to stay within RPI+1% as a whole....

As an occasional traveller from London to Westbury, I've found the previous fares rather high and indeed the changes (at a first glance) on this line look like a step in the right direction - towards bringing them more into line with the main lines that run across the north and south of Wiltshire.

Just two weeks ago, writing about split tickets, I noted for this journey:
17:33 -> 18:59, 84.00 can be reduced to 36.20 with a split at Newbury
17:45 -> 19:27, 84.00 can be reduced to 68.90 with a split at Swindon (change trains there)
18:06 -> 19:52, 84.00 can be reduced to 27.20 with a split at Theale
18:33 -> 20:04, 39.00 can be reduced to 32.60 with a split at Pewsey

Now, and without split ticketing:
17:33 - 35.60
17:45 - 84.00
18:06 - 35.60
18:33 - 35.60
Anytime single dropped from 84.00 to 74.00 on all trains except 17:45 which is via Swindon
Off Peak fares now offered on 17:33, 18:06 and 18:33

I note that the 74.00 is also valid from Trowbridge in the morning - 06:47 change at Westbury, but the fare from Melksham, joining that same train 10 minutes earlier, is 84.00 - an eye-watering 10 pounds supplement for an extra 6 miles or so (1.66 per mile) - and you'll still do better splitting if you're making that journey.
 

To think that FGW must employ people to dream up ways of fleecing commuters by raising fares.

At least some fares have come down - but overall, fares have risen. Combined with the great XC train robbery, the South West of England is getting further away from the rest of the UK. When will it end?

Sorry - but to a very great extent I'm supportive of much of the stuff that First are doing - AIUI, raising fares on journeys which are price well below their average in pence per mile, and lowering them for journeys which are priced well above their average.  I'm not suggesting an ultimate goal of the same number of pence per mile, but situations which held on the Hants and Berks where the Westbury fare was 3 times the Bedwyn fare on the same train in pence per mile, and yet the train was virtually empty from Bedwyn to Westbury (I wonder why!) were long overdue to be addressed.  Business case wise, it makes sense to lower prices where there is plenty of capacity (e.g. Newbury to Westbury in the evening) and raise prices where there is a lack of capaity and fares are dramatically below the norm in pence per mile.

Now - here's a sobering thought for everyone.  Only regulated fares are regulated.  So - come the next franchise, it's quite possible for it to be "all change" on many of the fares and systems - perhaps offering additional incentives to load trains, or perhaps slashing back on many of the unregulated and lower fares.  I have read comments that say "we want First to carry on because they provide xxxxx fare which is rather good value for us.  Sorry - I don't think that understanding of the situation is correct.  Whoever wins, regulated fares are unregulated and what anyone considers good for a 7 year franchise with 1% growth forecast may take a different view in a 15 year franchise with a history of 8% growth.

But I do have to admit I've been impressed by the very reasonable rail fares where I'm on holiday this week, and it ain't England.  The fare last Saturday was good enough to persuade us all to take the train today, rather than driving.  And in doing so, we occupied seats that would otherwise have been empty, saved petrol, arrived more relaxed, and made some good friends on the train.

I suppose that anomaly is because of the NSE border.

Another one is Swindon and Didcot, although more splitting is available.

Of course, this all comes back to the fact that the fares need a complete overhaul. Yes, some will go up more than others, but at least it'll be consistent.

I should just point out that FGW haven't lowered any fares in the current round. They've introduced a new 'flow'.

In practical terms for Joe Punter in Trowbridge that does mean that his trip to London can now be cheaper. But if he wishes route flexibility then the price is unchanged.

And it appears that the good folk of Devon & Cornwall may well now be paying extra for their regulated Super Off Peak Returns (which has pushed up the Off Peak Single/Return as well) to give folks in East Somerset and parts of Wiltshire some cheaper fares.