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Title: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: JayMac on March 09, 2012, 16:48:05 Edited to add
This thread has been split off from the "Quiet Zone" thread elsewhere (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=10472.0) as a separate discussion on smoking on stations was starting to develop. much like what happens if you try and stop someone from smoking at a station. They may not be breaking any law, either statute or railway byelaw. Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: BerkshireBugsy on March 09, 2012, 16:57:51 much like what happens if you try and stop someone from smoking at a station. They may not be breaking any law, either statute or railway byelaw. Now that is interesting BNM, I thought otherwise (but I am certainly no expert). In fact having raised the "observation" I can find conflicting articles as to whether it is a law,by-law or anything else. I am happy to be corrected :) Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: JayMac on March 09, 2012, 17:15:24 Station buildings, if substantially enclosed, illegal to smoke in. Health Act 2006.
Platforms under a canopy or open, illegal to smoke on if in the vicinity of a 'No Smoking' sign. Railway Byelaw 3. If you're not in a substantially enclosed building or in the vicinity of a 'No Smoking' sign then you're not breaking statute or byelaw. Announcements that 'It is illegal to smoke on stations' may not be true. Staff should be heeded though, even if they are ignorant of the correct legal position. Best not to get into a situation where you are asked to leave the premises, which would be legally enforceable even if you weren't breaking any law by smoking in a certain area of a station. Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: broadgage on March 09, 2012, 19:27:28 much like what happens if you try and stop someone from smoking at a station. They may not be breaking any law, either statute or railway byelaw. My understanding is that smoking in an enclosed public space or workplace is against the law, and that in theory at least, offenders can be prosecuted. If the space is not enclosed, then smoking is NOT against the law of the land and the smoker can not be arrested. In the case of railway property though, I believe that smoking IS against railway rules or bylaws, and that the smoker can be told to leave, presumably forfeiting the use of any tickets that they may have. Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: Btline on March 09, 2012, 19:47:38 In England and Wales, it is illegal to smoke anywhere on the station, whether it is inside a building, or on an open platform.
In Scotland, the same applies, expect that it is LEGAL to smoke on the platform if is not covered. When I was in Scotland back in 2007, I was shocked when the guard lit up on the platform at a country station whilst we were waiting to pass another train! In Wales, however, when I had a 10 minute wait at Harlech, the guard asked all people getting off for a fag to leave the platform (and not even stand on the steps to the station!). Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: JayMac on March 09, 2012, 19:51:41 In England and Wales, it is illegal to smoke anywhere on the station, whether it is inside a building, or on an open platform. Show me the legislation that says that. I think I put across the accurate legal position upthread. Of course IANAL. ;) Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: TerminalJunkie on March 10, 2012, 00:36:00 Platforms under a canopy or open, illegal to smoke on if in the vicinity of a 'No Smoking' sign. Railway Byelaw 3. If you're not in a substantially enclosed building or in the vicinity of a 'No Smoking' sign then you're not breaking statute or byelaw. Ahem. Railway Bylaw 3 actually states: Quote No person shall smoke or carry a lighted pipe, cigar, cigarette, match, lighter or other lighted item on any part of the railway on or near which there is a notice indicating that smoking is not allowed. The 2006 Health Act requires that a sign is affixed at the entrance of all areas for which it prescribes a smoking ban. As long as there is a sign at each entrance (and I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that an entrance is not 'near' the station), then that sign does ban smoking in any part of that station. Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: JayMac on March 10, 2012, 01:09:39 Under the Health Act 2006 'Premises' refers to enclosed or substantially enclosed structures. It is perfectly allowable for a site to have 'no smoking' signs at an entrance but for smoking to be legal elswhere on that site in unenclosed areas.
From the Health Act 2006 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/28/notes/division/6/1/1): Quote Section 2: Smoke-free premises 35. Section 2 makes provision for enclosed or substantially enclosed premises which are open to the public, and shared workplaces, to be smoke-free. 36. Subsection (1) provides that premises that are open to the public are to be smoke-free when they are open to the public. However, unless such premises also fall within the provisions of subsection (2), they are smoke-free only when open to the public. 37 .Subsection (2) provides that if premises are used as a place of work by more than one person, irrespective of whether such people work there at the same time, or if they are used a place of work where the public might attend to seek or receive goods or services, then they are to be smoke-free all the time. Subsection (3) provides that if only part of any premises are open to the public or used as a place of work, then the premises are only smoke-free to that extent. 38. Subsection (4) provides that only enclosed or substantially enclosed premises are smoke-free under section 2. The appropriate national authority (the Secretary of State in the case of England and the National Assembly in the case of Wales) may define in regulations under subsection (5) the meaning of ^enclosed^ or ^substantially enclosed^. 39. Subsection (6) is a signpost to section 3, which provides that premises that would otherwise be smoke-free under section 2 may be exempted from that requirement by regulations made under section 3. 40. Subsections (7) and (8 ) make provision as to what is covered by the terms ^open to the public^ and ^work^. Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: TerminalJunkie on March 10, 2012, 01:17:48 Under the Health Act 2006 'Premises' refers to enclosed or substantially enclosed structures. It is perfectly allowable for a site to have 'no smoking' signs at an entrance but for smoking to be legal elswhere on that site in unenclosed areas. Yeeessss, but the Railway Byelaws permit the railway to ban smoking in any area they like on their premises. They have signs at the entrance to comply with the Health Act 2006, and these signs also cover their own ban which extends to any part of the station; they have decided, for the sake of simplicity, that any part shall mean every part. Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: JayMac on March 10, 2012, 01:31:29 The railways have decided their interpretation of the legislation. Granted.
But any prosecutions for smoking on the railway would surely have to be for one offence. Either Section 7 Health Act 2006 or Railway Byelaw 3. For Health Act that would have to be in enclosed or substantially enclosed premises. For Railway Byelaw that would have to be in the vicinity of a 'no smoking' sign. What do you charge someone with if they were stood smoking at the end of a platform and there was no sign nearby? BTW. I'm a smoker and I am happy not to smoke on a station. I'm just not sure the legislation is clear cut. You'll note my original answer to BerkshireBugsy said, "They may not be breaking any law....." Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: TerminalJunkie on March 10, 2012, 01:39:56 For Railway Byelaw that would have to be in the vicinity of a 'no smoking' sign. The Byelaw doesn't say that *you* have to be near (where does this 'in the vicinity' bit come from?) the sign, it says that you must not smoke (or carry a lighted pipe, etc) on any part of the railway that is near a notice that says that you can't. If there is a sign at the entrance to the station, then that station must be near that sign. And if the sign says you can't smoke anywhere in that station... Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: JayMac on March 10, 2012, 01:44:43 Sorry. 'vicinity' was my word. Still, the definition of it includes 'near'.
Ultimately though the definition of 'near' would be decided in court. Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: TerminalJunkie on March 10, 2012, 01:55:26 Sorry. 'vicinity' was my word. http://www.plainwords.co.uk/newsletter/general/training_12/index.html (http://www.plainwords.co.uk/newsletter/general/training_12/index.html) Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: JayMac on March 10, 2012, 02:02:21 Where's the section on unnecessary pedantry?
I appreciate debate and an exchange of views. I'm happy to acknowledge your point of view, but after an apology for using a word you weren't happy with you then go further by posting a totally irrelevant link. I know it's your schtick on this forum, but sometimes it can be tiresome rather than humorous. Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: BerkshireBugsy on March 10, 2012, 07:32:10 For Railway Byelaw that would have to be in the vicinity of a 'no smoking' sign. The Byelaw doesn't say that *you* have to be near (where does this 'in the vicinity' bit come from?) the sign, it says that you must not smoke (or carry a lighted pipe, etc) on any part of the railway that is near a notice that says that you can't. If there is a sign at the entrance to the station, then that station must be near that sign. And if the sign says you can't smoke anywhere in that station... I think the possibility of "open to interpretation" is why the Bye-law is worded the way it is in England and Wales as opposed to Scotland where the bye-law seems to allow smoking in open spaces. As BNM correctly says, IMHO, that in England and Wales the bye-law does not permit smoking on any part of the station. What is "interesting" is how this is interpreted by passengers. For example, I believe the ramp up to the ticket gate on the town center side of Reigate station is still station property but alot of pax use this area to have a last cigarette before boarding a service. Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: IndustryInsider on March 10, 2012, 10:03:22 I wonder, given all the discussion on this thread about the exact meaning of the law, how many people have actually been prosecuted for smoking on an open railway station platform since the ban? Mind you, I have on a couple of occasions seen staff get embarrassingly over-zealous with some individuals who have been caught doing so.
It's open to huge misuse, as it's ridiculous to try and enforce a no smoking policy on an isolated windswept platform at, say, Combe. It's also illogical when you have to fight your way past hoards of smokers at Paddington at the bottom of the Praed Street entrance who are quite legitimately smoking! Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: basset44 on March 10, 2012, 10:30:31 Hi All,
I am a smoker and once or twice I have been caught having a smoke at the far end of platforms way out of peoples way when I have to catch connecting trains but have not the time to leave a mess about trying to get out of the station through the gates trying to find somebody to explain that I am going out for a smoke and trying to get back in. This has cost me a taxi fare to the next station once when platform security at a station late at night not FGW and I was told to leave the station and would be refused entry again. All this just puts me of travelling, one thing they do better in Europe is provide smoking areas on Platforms and in the airports, what we seem to do in this country is just make it awkward, unless of course you are an MP who ignores the law. Basset Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: Lee on March 10, 2012, 16:44:09 Hi All, I am a smoker and once or twice I have been caught having a smoke at the far end of platforms way out of peoples way when I have to catch connecting trains but have not the time to leave a mess about trying to get out of the station through the gates trying to find somebody to explain that I am going out for a smoke and trying to get back in. This has cost me a taxi fare to the next station once when platform security at a station late at night not FGW and I was told to leave the station and would be refused entry again. All this just puts me of travelling, one thing they do better in Europe is provide smoking areas on Platforms and in the airports, what we seem to do in this country is just make it awkward, unless of course you are an MP who ignores the law. Basset Two middle-aged ladies smoking on the platform bench at Lelant Saltings this afternoon... :-X Title: Re: Legalities or otherwise of smoking on railway premises: spin-off from "Quiet Zone" topic. Post by: readytostart on March 11, 2012, 11:44:38 In England and Wales, it is illegal to smoke anywhere on the station, whether it is inside a building, or on an open platform. In Scotland, the same applies, expect that it is LEGAL to smoke on the platform if is not covered. With the exception of the two Network Rail managed stations; Edinburgh Waverley and Glasgow Central where the enclosed areas are covered under the Smoking, Health and Social Care (Scotland) Act 2005 and open areas under Railway Byelaw 3, the signs displaying the appropriate legislation for different parts of the stations. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |