Great Western Coffee Shop

Can I ask for some Xpert input here ... giving some thought to elements of what would and would not be fixed within franchise terms for a new franchise, perhaps with a different TOC and / or with a new marketing approach.

As I understand it (but I'm liable for correction)

Some fares are regulated.  They're ticket types that must be offered, and their prices must only increase at or below a government specified level, though there can be some evening out of a basket.

The following are regulated fares:
Open Singles
Open Returns
Day Returns
Season Tickets

Other fares are unregulated. They're ticket types that are offered by the individual train operating company/ies, who can set the prices as they wish, and terms and conditions too.   Such tickets can be introduced, withdrawn and amended by the train operating company without reference back to the Department for Transport.   So it follows that any fares of this type could be withdrawn under a new franchise, to be replaced by something completely different, or not replaced at all.

The following are unregulated fares:
Advanced tickets specific to a single train
Tickets issued for use only on the trains of one company, even when multiple companies serve the route
Groupsave

But this is were I start coming a bit unstuck. 

* What about off peak and super offpeak tickets?  I thought there was some regulation involved there, but there seem to be situations where a TOC can change the definition os what is and isn't peak.   Are there "core" hours which are regulated, with companies able to add dispensations?

* What about Rover tickets?  The All Line Rover used to be a glorious "hop on anywhere, anytime and just travel" ticket, but it now seems restricted.

Help appreciated on this - I don't *think* we have a thread elsewhere that tells us, but please point me to one if we do.  Thanks

I'm not sure you're right.

I thought these were regulated

Peak Fares 'Any Permitted'
Off-Peak Returns (what used to be 'Savers')
Season Tickets

Rovers, Super off-peak & ADvance aren't regulated, nor operator-specific fares.

Peaks have to finish at 10am and 7pm into/out of London. There is no restriction on evening start times of peak, nor any for super off-peak times.

Neither am I, Chris ... in fact I know I am or was very confused.  I need(ed) help.

That 7 p.m. peak limit would explain a couple of things ...

My advice is FGW-centric.

I understand operators are able to specify which of their not-peak are their regulated fares - as Chilteern swapped their off-peak (ex-Saver) fare for their Super off-peak fares to be regulated (where they exist). It enabled them to sneakily increase their off-peak fares once in January to the RPI+1% limit and then, once they bacame de-regulated, increased them again in September 2011

Details of how fares are regulated can be found in appendix C (from page 35 & onwards) of this document:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:/www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/archive/2002/farespolicyreview/faresreviewconclusions2003.pdf

That information is, to the best of my knowledge, still fairly accurate. The names of ticket types have changes since then* and an additional tier was added by some operators. Where an operator now offers a Super Off Peak Return in addition to an Off Peak Return it is the Super Off Peak Return which is now the regulated fare.

*
For Saver Return, read Off Peak/Super Off Peak Return
For Standard Return read Anytime Return

Since the SRA conducted that fares review in 2003 there has been some tinkering with the names and 'basket' rules, but in the main the 'protected' fares on any particular flow remain unchanged. Except to say that most operators now only offer the protected '(Super) Off Peak' fares at the bare minimum times allowed for in their franchise.

Things may change in the coming months. Fares are being looked at again by policy makers. There maybe another comprehensive fares review on the horizon..... Don't expect to see a return to a more generous interpretation of (Super) Off Peak though....

Hmmm - sorry, can't agree.
Unless the operator has specifically requested & obtained DfT/ORR approval, it is the off-peak return that is regulated.

To my knowledge, only Chiltern have gone down that route.

Hmm, sorry. Don't agree that you can't agree.  ;)

Where First Great Western have Super Off Peak Return's these are the regulated fare. Same goes for East Midlands Trains and East Coast. Including Chiltern, I think that's it for operators who offer Super Off Peak Returns.

I've confirmed that it is Super Off Peak Returns on FGW, EC & EMT that are regulated by comparing the fares from Dec '09 and Jan '10. It was at this time that regulated fares went down by 0.4%, thanks to negative RPI in summer 2009.

The only fares that went down on FGW, EC & EMT were the Super Off Peak Returns, ergo they were (and remain) the regulated fare on flows where the old Saver Return was offered prior to February 2003.

I'm unsure of the situation with Chiltern. In 2009/10 the regulated fare where a Saver Return existed prior to February 2003 was the Off Peak Return. Chiltern radically overhauled their fare structure on longer distance journeys last year. Looking at the timings when their Super Off Peak Returns are valid and comparing those with the times when a 'protected return fare' has to be valid, according to the franchise agreement, I would conclude that, yes, Chiltern's regulated/protected fare for journeys north of Banbury is now also the Super Off Peak Return.

Could anyone with a good memory and/or a legal talent reveal whether fares regulation is a cap, or whether it mandates TOCs increasing fares by the average amount that the government dictates? Where in regulations or statute are the regulatory powers defined?

Its an average of a basket of fares. There are three baskets for FGW, reflecting the three franchises that were rolled into the current franchise.

Sorry Chris, I didn't make myself clear. Bearing in mind the origin of fares regulation, I would have expected it to dictate the maximum amount by which a TOC could raise its fares (subject to all the basket complications) but it seems to be applied as a mandatory size of increase. I was after the source of the fares regulation powers and whether this allowed DfT to force TOCs to raise regulated fares, or whether such compulsion was introduced in franchise contracts...or whether there is any compulsion on the TOCs.

The following link answers some of the points raised by Grahame and me:

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN01904.pdf (http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN01904.pdf)



My highlighting.
And from a franchise agreement:

They mustn't exceed the regulated value - but they can apply from 0% to that figure as they wish. However, elsewhere in the regs says that all this increase passes to the DfT through the payment structures....so the TOC would take a loss if they didn't apply to the full amount.

Further, the TOC doesn't have to apply the increase in January either - but loses the option to increase at the following January increase date. Increases can be spread across the three annual dates for increases, but of course, the additional payment to the DfT is due on fares charged from January - hence why TOCs generally do put the whole increase on then....

Could you help this weary guy identify where "in the regs" this appears?  ??? (please)

Sorry, I can't.

Briefed by FGWs & Chiltern's management though, who explained it all the same way

Another trawl later, the following from the ATOC site:

http://www.atoc.org/media-centre/latest-press-releases/train-companies-respond-to-july-inflation-rate-and-fare-rises-100612 (http://www.atoc.org/media-centre/latest-press-releases/train-companies-respond-to-july-inflation-rate-and-fare-rises-100612)

Now let's see how the SRA expected the regulation scheme to work when it was revsed to RPI+1 after the 2003 regulation review:


Also from the SRA review:

http://tna.europarchive.org/20060213214311/http://www.sra.gov.uk/pubs2/stratpolplan/fares/conclusions (http://tna.europarchive.org/20060213214311/http://www.sra.gov.uk/pubs2/stratpolplan/fares/conclusions)

So it's explicit that a change in the regulatory regime (e.g. to RPI+3) requires adjustment of the TOC's
subsidy/premium so that it has no net change in its
finances. It is still not clear how it has become compulsory for the TOC to raise fares by the full extent
permitted by the cap.

Chris B - I'm not trying to contradict you; just going through the documents to try to find where
and how a fares "cap" has come to be used contrary to the way it was intended when the railways
act was devised.

Sevenoaks Rail Travellers' Association has its own version of the truth:

http://www.srta.org.uk/PDF%20files/Why%20have%20fares%20increased%20so%20much%20final.pdf (http://www.srta.org.uk/PDF%20files/Why%20have%20fares%20increased%20so%20much%20final.pdf)

I don't see how this fits with the description in the SRA stuff of the fares basket being based on an indexation of 2003 fares. However, this is SRTA's interpretation of what they've been told. Anyone else care to join in?

The SRA stuff confirms what are regulated & unregulated fares, both in commuter country & elsewhere. All you need to add to that is where any TOC has changed their off-peak regulated (the old SAver) to a Super off-peak now being regulated (In which case, the off-peak is no longer regulated)

Also confirms the times when the regulated off- (or super off-) peak fare must be valid on weekdays

Having reminded myself of the difficulty of following what's regulated, it's with some trepidation that I'm re-opening this thread ...

Question 1.   Has anything in the regulation regime changed in the last 22 months, or are we still to refer to the SRA's 2003 documents and consider the fares renamed as we do so?  It seem extraordinary that a subject such as fares that generates so much interest at this time of year is only described in a document from an organisation that no longer exists, and in that document in terms of ticket type names that have been replaced and in some cases the tickets have moved on!

Question (set) 2.  "Regulated fares are weekly seasons, off peak returns, and standard returns where no off peak return exists" ... is my understanding.   Is this correct?   What conclusion did we reach about super off peaks - have they taken over from off peaks where they're on offer?  Where there is an off peak DAY return rather than (or as well as) an off peak period return, is that fare regulated, or does it drop back to the standard return being regulated if there is no period return?

Question 3. Where a new fare has been introduced within the set that's normally regulated (for example, the fares that were added from Westbury to London via Newbury), how does that fit into the regulation regime?

The off-peak regulated return *was* the Saver Return, usually valid for a month. That became (I Think) the Off-Peak return in most cases (certainly in the old NSE area) and it is that fare that is still regulated *unless* the TOC has requested a change. So the answer to Q1 is to rely (to begin with at least) on the SRA document taking into account the fares 'simplification' documents for the renaming of tickets.

BUT - once you haver done whatever research you are doing, you DO need to check whether the TOC9s) concerned have made any changes -

Chiltern for example did exactly that - where they have Super off-peak Returns, it is now that fare that is now regulated, and only the Off-peak Return being regulated now where the Super off-peak fare doesn't exist for any flow.

The only way I believe to check current status is direct with the TOC concerned - although I suspect Passenger Focus / London TravelWatch can & do keep check & may well supply any data that you might require.

A much more up-to-date overview of fares regulation:

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01904.pdf‎

On FGW, where a Super Off Peak Return exists this is the regulated fare for that flow. otherwise it's the Off Peak Return.

If there is no Super Off Peak Return or Off Peak Return on a flow then the Anytime Return or Anytime Day Return is the regulated fare.

A full list of regulated fares flows can be found in at this location (http://sdrv.ms/1gjJKkS). These are files I've uploaded to the cloud from a Freedom of Information request (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/regulated_flows). The list is in four parts. The fifth and sixth parts are the index to the ticket type codes used in the list and the index to the route codes used. Unfortunately the lists aren't in truly alphabetical order, so some manual searching is required to find particular flows.

Where a flow is not listed this will be because the origin and/or destination is part of a fares cluster and the main, or a nearby, station in that cluster will determine the regulated fare for the flow. For example, flows from Melksham may be listed under Chippenham. You can find fares clusters by using brfares.com (http://brfares.com), entering the origin and destination and then selecting 'Expert Mode'. Look at larger neighbouring stations in the uploaded lists, or the first station named in the cluster. Not a perfect way of searching to find regulated fares for a particular flow, some trial and error is needed. Comparing the fares between actual origin/destination and the main location in a cluster is helpful. If the fare is the same then whether or not it is a regulated fare will also be the same.

For example, Melksham to York has the same fares as Chippenham to York. Finding Chippenham to York in the lists shows that the regulated fares are the Super Off Peak Return for the ✠Any Permitted routeing and the Off Peak Return for the Not London routeing.

Link to Regulated Fares Flows list: http://sdrv.ms/1gjJKkS

There you are, then: it's all perfectly simple.  :P

Exactly. As I've often said, simplicity and UK rail fares rarely go hand in hand.

Self service, or you can do what ChrisB suggested and ask the TOC. One suspects that a TOC's Customer Services dept will have to refer a query to someone who can decode the lists.

Using the lists or waiting for a reply may take an equal length of time.  :P ;) ;D