Great Western Coffee Shop

From the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/jan/27/malfunctioning-ticket-machine-east-coast-trains?newsfeed=true):

I once had a similar experience, my pre-paid ticket not being available for collection, and a "fine" therefore being payable on board the train.
I lost a lot of money as a result, and  therefore now avoid use of this facility.

Although in the case refered to above, the customer eventually got their money back, such cases do not improve the image of the railway industry.
There is a general belief that railway ticketing is not only needlesly complex, but verging on a fiddle.

I hear of more and more cases of people being told to pay large "fines" for events that they consider to be the fault of the railway, not any wrong doing on the customers part.

I recently saw a family who vowed never to use the train again.
They had tickets valid only on a certain train, and were well aware of this restriction. They boarded what appeared to be the correct service, at the correct time and from the usuall platform. On board they were told that in fact they had boarded the preceeding service which was running late. They had to pay a fine of hundreds of pounds, for a party of four. No other business would get away with this sort of thing.

I'm glad that on fgw services there does seem to be a willingness by conductors to allow travel with proof of ticket purchase numerous times if ticket machines are not working such as an e-mail showing booking etc. Maybe more people should be encouraged to have proof of purchase with them which is easy enough with the number of msartphones people have now so showing confirmation is easy enough to to prove payment for the journey then collect tickets en-route or at the destination. Common sense being applied which in this case was not. If the passanger had a ticket to collect then why not let revenue protection at the destination deal with it as without a ticket to collect if they had been lying they would be charged a fine anyway.

The problem rail staff face is sorting the genuine from the chancer.

An email print out is not a ticket. That is clearly stated on email booking confirmations. Only a ticket (be that standard stock, print-at-home, m-ticket, smartcard...) or other authority to travel is evidence of the contract between passenger and TOC. Regular acceptance of email confirmation may seem like good discretion being shown, but it can cause all sorts of problems.

Without a ticket, the passenger may not be insured as they are technically trespassing. Staff further into the journey may not show discretion, instead issuing a full Anytime fare, UPFN, Penalty Fare or starting the ball rolling toward prosecution.

Without a ticket, only an email confirmation, someone else may be travelling using the collected ticket.

It's surely common sense to allow sufficient time to collect a ticket, particularly at a station as busy as King's Cross. If one machine isn't working there's at least a dozen others, as well as ticket office staff. In the unlikely event all systems were down, then barrier and on-train staff would be aware of this and proper authority to travel would be given.

At all times it remains the passengers responsibility to ensure they have a ticket or other authority to travel. An email confirmation is not such authority. "The bloke on the platform said it was okay" is also not such authority.

I agree wholeheartedly with all you say particularly with regards to kings cross. I have previously had issues having travelled from stations with part time staffing and only one machine which is out of action, but generally the company in question (london midland) uses common sense and allows me to pick up tickets from euston (generally I am travelling a short distance on London midland and then a much longer distance on fgw, virgin etc).

Agreed, ... and I also agree with you to allow plenty of time ... but


If you're in an unfamiliar situation and a curved ball is thrown at you, you seek help, don't you?  It's all very well for us here to have knowledge and hindsight, but the person here (who, as I understand was confirmed not be be a chancer) probably didn't have a degree in railway law and the fares system.

Point taken. But the law is blind and ignorance is no defence.

Okay in this instance, there was no recourse to law, but I think there does need to be a bit of personal responsibility on the part of this particular passenger. To have tried 'several times' to retrieve his ticket without seeking out staff at this point seems a bit silly. East Coast employ floor walkers in their booking office at King's Cross where most of the TVMs are located. Would've been sensible to summon one of these rather than continue to unsuccessfully retrieve a ticket. There would've more likely been a resolution of the problem at this point.

We also don't know exactly what was asked of the platform staff member, only having one side of the story from someone who failed to collect his ticket. That platform staffer may have mistaken KC's piece of paper for an East Coast print-at-home ticket.

It's telling that KC says "As my train was about to depart....." Someone in a rush it would seem....

KC also says he was fined. He wasn't, and it's very poor of the guardian to repeat this error. He was issued with an invoice (UPFN) for the correct fare for his journey. East Coast allow you to buy on-board, but only Anytime fares.

The ticket machine at Hanborough station is most unreliable and only works about half the time with the touch screen often refusing to recognise that anyone is touching it and that is when it is not showing a message "Out of service" - usually because it has run out of tickets or there has been a ticket jam.
Last Wednesday I was helping an elderly lady on how to use the machine and she bought one return ticket. She then said - Oh I want another ticket for my hubby. We went through the process again but this time the machine refused to accept the same debit card that it had accepted before. I took her through the process again just in case she had put in the wrong pin but, no, it would not accept the card. In the mean time a short queue had formed behind us and the train was coming in.

Another Scheidt and Bachmann machine, possibly?  (http://www.msn101.com/content/emoticons/whistle_EHWYHS.gif)

And how many TVM's are there at KGX? just one? I don't think so!

Didn't something similar happen to MookieMoo too?

I had an incident with c2c on New Years Day, I arrived at Chalkwell Station, Ticket Office Closed and the only TVM broken down. There is also no Permit to Travel Machine there. So I had no choice but to board the train to West Ham (Where I change for Jubilee Line to Waterloo). Once I got on the train I was hoping that an RPI might be about where I could buy a ticket. There was none :(

When I got to West Ham I tried to buy my ticket there, the ticket office there was closed too! >:( Which meant going onto Waterloo on the Underground with no ticket, something I was hoping to avoid! I got to Waterloo and spoke to a very friendly chap at Excess Fares and explained the situation that the only TVM was OOU and I couldn't get a ticket. He said that I would be charged ^4.00 for the Underground Fare I had used, When I enquired about the c2c portion of my journey he said and I quote: "Well you had no way to buy a ticket and I can't sell you one here so in this instance, don't lose sleep over it!"

I have since tweeted to c2c asking what I should do if this happens again and they advised I should go to Fenchurch Street to buy my ticket. Which to be honest I have mixed emotions about. When I change at West Ham, I can be in Waterloo in 15 minutes on the Jubilee Line as it's Direct... If I go to Fenchurch Street to buy my ticket, I then have to Walk to Tower Hill and get a District Line or Circle Line Train to Embankment, Change and then Bakerloo/Northern to Waterloo. Which takes me 30 - 40 minutes. That is the difference between making a Fast Train to Salisbury or being on the Hampshire Stopper!

So whilst that sounds like I am trying to dodge the fare (Which of course is definitely something I would NOT do). Why should I spend an extra 20 minutes on my journey trying to buy my ticket when they can't provide the facilities in which to do so in the bloody first place!

I dread to think what would have happened if I'd have booked an Advance Ticket! :o

Others have had this problem.
AFAIK some ticket machines will reject repeated use of the same card.
I suspect that this is an anti fraud measure since otherwise a thief could use the same stolen or cloned card to purchase multiple tickets, and then obtain cash refunds.

This does not apply to all cards or at all locations.

You wouldn't have been able to collect an AP from Chalkwell, nor West Ham....

continuing the theme of ticket machines - the one at my local station does not work in the following conditions:

- rain, screen wet you cannot use the touch screen
- sunny, the reflection makes the screen near impossible to see anything
- cold, the middle of the screen stops working

This is good case to keep the tickets clerks to continue working at stations

Or it may be a good case to be more humane to ticket machines  ;).  I don't think ticket clerks function very well either ... if they are cold, have wet faces, or are working in the bright sunlight to they can't see their equipment.

I like that grahame!  ;D ;D ;D

Are we permitted to continually poke a wet-faced or sun-blinded ticket clerk until they do work?  :P ;) ;D

Rather like TVMs, I understand ticket clerks do not take particularly kindly to being punched or kicked. :P

I hope you ain't tried  :o

Certainly not - TVM or clerk!  :o

 ;D I'm safe then hehe

I know this is in jest and not wanting to put to much of a dampener on the thread, but unfortunately that's what happened to a gateline member of staff at Truro this afternoon. the other staff say that he wasn't too badly hurt but was pretty well shaken up and the Police apparently did catch a suspect shortly after.

I had a similar problem once when a friend and I couldn't get our tickets to Exeter from the machine at Waterloo, however with a much more positive outcome.  We were told to board, explained to the conductor on board who was very understanding (I showed him the confirmation email) and we got our tickets from the Machine at EXD.
Sorry to hear this story, It's pretty disgusting really, but alas not unheard of.

Steve