Great Western Coffee Shop

Panorama investigates the cost of riding on the railway.

Next on:

Monday, 20:30 on BBC One

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01bd1jv

 We seem to have the same story every year from different TV companies.
 
 Last year it was Richard Wilson, pick a crowded commuter train and interview the
 travelling victims.  I will watch the program, but do not expect any new revelations.

OK, I must add straight away that I don't go through London on my daily journey from Thatcham to Reigate. My weekly ticket costs ^107.90 which is about ^22 per day.

I reckon that is about is 130 miles round trip for day. I always get a seat on my journey and (apart from in the leaf season when things go really bad) the services is normally pretty reliable.

OK, I'll get my helmet and coat!

I watched it last night and felt everybody gave their side of the argument quite well - all except the woman interviewed from the office of Rail Regulation!

I'm a little hesitant as I know the editing of these programs can very much change how one's answers come across.  However, when asked a couple of time if the Reading project is on schedule I would have had though an answer that lists all the of the milestones hit so far on schedule would have been forthcoming.  Instead an answer of "it looks like it is so far" didn't really come across well.

The other issue about the ORR requesting and providing financial figures from Network Rail (regarding the Rugby upgrade) was answered that made it seem the ORR has no right to such information.  If that is the case then I would have thought stating that the ORR should have the right and that the current state of affairs isn't any good would have been the response.

It all made the ORR look quite powerless.

Personally, I think season ticket prices are very reasonable.  especially when most holders travel in the peaks when capacity provision is most expensive.

It's always compared to driving isn't is, the problem is that going by car you don't see it as an upfront cost... If every time you got in the car you had to pay the fuel for your journey, the car parking conjestion charge or tolls if applicable and a percentage of the tax insurance and maintance costs all at once before you make the trip,rail would be viewed differently

In my case (and I accept it may not be typical) I am fortunate because parking at Thatcham (if you get there early enough) is free. I can walk from the station in Reigate to the office as it is a matter of a few hundred metres. Were I to commute everyday then I expect to use about 1.8 tanks of petrol so in that respect the cost is split over two transactions.

THe big advantage I find of going by train is that going to sleep (or playing/reading on the iPad) tends to have less disasterous consequences :)

Dave

I've got to make a day round trip to London for each of the next five weeks, potentially travelling in peak and never sure until the day as to the exact train I'll catch.

5 Open returns would cost me 146 x 5 = 730.00
compare that to 5 return trips made in the same week on a season ticket = 233.20

If I'm bulk buying five return trips like the weekly season ticket folks do, shouldn't I be able to get them for 233.20 ?

This thread seems to summarise it.  Its patchy. Some fares are quite reasonable others are a ripoff.

Yesterday I went to Cardiff (from Swindon) for an afternoon meeting.  ^18.50 would not have bought the necessary deisel let alone the bridge fare.  However on Thursday I have to go to London, both going and coming back in the peak.  If I did not split it would be ^112.  Yet Didcot  traveller have the benefit of a day return that substantially reduces the cost - of travelling on the same trains.  Season ticket holders also get a really good deal on that basis. 

Going back to comparing the railways to driving, there are some flows where it works out both cheaper and considerably faster to drive, especially if you need to take onward connections.

Here is a journey I'm making nearly every week at the moment (this should become monthly from next month):

Train
Cranfield University - Milton Keynes Central by bus: 1 hour; ^2.50 single
(Note: no bus on Sundays, except for a single shuttle paid by the university once per day, which calls at the station around 4pm)
Milton Keynes Central - London Euston by train: 40 minutes; ^13 return
Euston - Waterloo by tube: 25 minutes; ^1.30 single
London Waterloo - Havant: 1 hour 20 minutes; ^21 return
Taxi (because it is normally around 10:30pm) to home: 20 minutes; ^7 single

Total time: 3 hours and 45 minutes not including any walking, connection time or rest breaks.  Easily 4.5 to 5 hours in total.
Total cost: ^55.60 return (including a railcard discount)
Luggage: whatever I can carry

Driving
Time: 2 hours and 15 minutes, including a 10 minute stop at services
Cost: roughly ^15 each way, so ^30 total
I would have paid for the insurance anyway, so I'm not including this in the cost.  In any case, this is about ^1.50 per day, assuming I use the car everyday.
Luggage: whatever will fit in the car (about three times what I can carry, in terms of volume)

Unfortunately, I have no option but to drive this now.  There is no benefit whatsoever to using the train.  It is a stressful journey, often encountering drunks (due to the time of day) and takes far too long.  I'd need to encouter a lot of traffic for the road journey to be slower.

The thing that stood out for me was the apparent very poor grasp of business matters by the ORR spokesperson; if that was illustrative of the level of knowledge of their staff then I think somebody needs to take a serious look at whether the ORR is worth keeping in its present form.

quite.  And neither are defensible.  The fares manual needs to be ripped up and we need to start again.

Trouble is if you work from that basis that the fare income must remain the same (which I expect Government will do), there will be winners and loosers.  So there will at the very least need to be some pahsing in of a new system, even if you could devise one.

Am I the only person who thought the lady from the ORR was actually a man until she opened her mouth?  :-X ;D

As has been said they are quick to quote the ^k's passengers pay on season tickets, however in the interest of balance, shouldn't the full pricing of driving the same route, congestion charge, parking in london etc be shown too over a year? 

Who would Mr. Complain-a-lot-to-Mr-Hopwood from Oxford e-mail if he was driving and experience congestion day in day out?

Just a general thought too.. why do people take the train or pay the fares if there is a much cheaper/easier alternative to their journey  ???

Does that man really write something every day? Surely his emails just go into the "spam" folder now?

When are McNulties ideas going to be implemented?

I, too, think the fares should be ripped up and started again. Yes, loopholes would be lost, but I would rather buy a normal ticket and know that I am paying the best price without doing anything wacky.

I may open a tin of worms here, but I feel it should be said...

Maybe because some of us have no choice?? If you're like me, who cannot drive because of disability (something that may very well be permanent). Then trains and buses are more or less the only option. Taxi is an option for a shorter journey, but I don't have ^300 to spend most weekends to go to London and back again!

Yes I think some fares are far too expensive for the reflection of the journey. The argument for EU travel being cheaper though definitely stacks up in my option. In Spain, you can travel from Alicante to Lorca for 5.05 Euros each way, a distance of 90 Miles. That price applies any time during the day. Now if we look at Frome to Totnes, a distance of about 98 Miles, you're looking at ^30.50!! and that ticket you can only use off peak!

Very good point.

I do have the choice of catching the train or driving to work.

If I drive, it takes a variable amount of time - and stress - to get to work. But sometimes, notably when Reading is undergoing major engineering works I have no choice to drive and I really don't like it (apart from the fact it allows me to get to the local-ish model railway shop which I can't normally do)



Edited to fix quote marks. bignosemac.

You would have to phase it all in gradually.  That would be fine.  You could also make it approximately reveue neutral,  That would be fine too.  The problem would be how can imposing somthing like this work with our current franchise model?  You'd end up paying huge amount of money we don;t have to the franchisees as compensation for changes.   ironically, one we had the new system in place, the franchisees would know what they were bidding against and their wouldn;t be a problem. 

I can the logic in charging more at peak times, and less when space is available.
I can not see any sense whatsoever in different fares according to when the ticket is purchased.
Why on earth should ANY discounted tickets be sold for trains that are likely to be overcrowded ?
And likewise, why should last minute  travel on a lightly loaded off peak train be so expensive ?
I sometimes need to use the 18-03 from Paddington at short notice, I accept that this is a busy service and the fares should be relatively high, but I resent having to stand whilst those with discounted tickets get reservations.

Anytime fares are among the highest in the world, and the various discounted tickets of little use if ones plans are unknown.
Another problem with heavily discounted tickets is that most are restricted  to a particular train, with a "fine" of hundreds of pounds if this is missed. Petrol does not cost 10 times as much if purchased or used a little later than expected.
Driving does not cost 5 times as much if decided on at the last minute.

That's fair comment re: disability, I think BB illustrates the point that I was trying to make better:

Panorama missed a trick here - fancy not mentioning XC's doubling of turn up and go fares due to the new 0930 restriction.  Cross Country's official response to my complaint is repeated below (when is a fare increase not a fare increase? When there is a change in restrictions to make Off Peak travel more consistent!):

"Question:  Why has Cross Country found it necessary to charge twice as much as the old fare for exactly the same service? 
Answer:  We are not charging any more for the service - this fare has always been in place.  We have however, changed the restriction for the Off-peak fare to make Off-peak travel more consistent across our network.  This is in line with our Off-peak travel policy. 
   
Question:  You have not explained why the cheaper option you suggested is not shown on Cross Country^s website.
Answer:  Split ticket journeys are not always the available for all journeys.  Further to this, the National Conditions of Carriage have strict conditions relating to when a combination of tickets can be used.  Therefore it is only appropriate to sell tickets valid for the entire journey.   
 
I appreciate these may not be the answers you want to hear and I am sorry if you are disappointed."