Great Western Coffee Shop

1. I've noted the conversation on fare rises and their restriction this year to  price index plus 1%.  Some say "more subsidy" but others aren't so sure. And personally, there are so many government inputs and outputs, I simply don't know where the balance really lies.

2. I've been trying to get to the true cost of running the UK rail's services and see all sorts of costs and money flows in and out.  And also to look at how very different services / service groups fit in.

So I'll be drawing up a diagram to try to help to see how all the major elements of the picture go together, and I would really appreciate soe help and inputs from readers here - via posts, p.m.s, emails - (I'm graham@wellho.net)

Questions

Income

For every 100 pounds I spend with a train operating company (let's take FGW as our example)  at one of their ticket offices, how much other income do they get and from where?
- Payments from central government to help run the services
- Payments from local government to help subsidise services
- Receipts from other activities such as catering and car parking (perhaps via intermediate agents such as APCOA)
- VAT refund?  Rail tickets are non vatable, but much of the expenditure by a TOC must attract VAT.
- Any other major income streams?

Expenditure

Where does that "100 + x " pounds go?  How much goes on each of the following major organisations?

- Payments to Network Rail
- Payments to Central Government / DfT Rail / Treasury for franchise, business rates of properties, VAT on any vatable sales, etc?
- Payments to RoSCos
- Any others - ORR, ACoRP, RAIB, ATOC, National Rail, BTP, Passenger Focus (or do they go via and are thus included in the above?)

And how much goes on ...

- Cost of operational staff (how does that split in terms of net salary, tax and NI, and offices / training etc)
- Cost of management staff (again, net paybill and tax / NI split would be interesting, and offices / training etc)
- Ditto for other staff (call center teams, etc)
- Ditto for contracts / contractors to assist, such as Group 4.

- Cost of maintaining stations and other infrastructure and systems that are TOC's responsibility
- Cost of maintaining rolling stock that's not included in the RoSCo payments listed above
- Cost of fuel (and how much of that is tax that goes back to the government)
- Capital investment in new facilities / direct purchase of rolling stock, etc

- Payments to parent company (inc. Corporation tax?)
- Shareholder dividends (and how much of that is pulled back as tax?)
- Cost of preparing and maintaining current franchise contract and future franchise bids
- Profit / retained

- What else have I overlooked?

If income exceeds expenditure, where does the spare go?   If expenditure exceeds income, how is the gap filled?

The fare income from a 125, running at over 100 m.p.h. with 8 cars and loaded up to 140% with passengers paying up to 70p per mile for the journey is very different from the fare income from a 150 or 153 running to Newquay, Looe, Gunnislake, Severn Beach at around 30 m.p.h., perhaps lightly loaded in winter and with fares around 25p per mile ... and the expenses differ too though not (I suspect) as dramatically.  Help in splitting out the figures above as they relate to 100 pound spend on main line tickets, and 100 pounds spend on typical "West" journeys, would be appreciated too.

I don't know whether this help:

http://www.atoc.org/2012fares/fares-facts

For every ^:

Leasing trains 11p
Staff costs: 17p
Other, maint/admin: 17p
Fuel & energy 4p
Profit: 3p
Network rail: 48p

Best of luck and a happy Christmas to all.

I would suggest it's a bit like Heisenburg's Uncertainty principle if you know where the money comes from you don't know where it goes and vice versa.

There are so many buckets (budgets) that the railway draws from and so many people scooping money out of the buckets that it's almost impossible to tell where any ^1 goes.

You've listed at least 16 on quick count. An equation with 16 variables is unsolvable.

Hi, folks ... I haven't overlooked the responses here - thank you - all be they a very limited number.  I'm afraid I conclude that the whole thing is so wrapped up in circles and mirrors that none of us mere mortals can work it out. 

The Panorama program, with Network rail and ORR spokespeople, gave me something of an update on elements associated with the costing. And I've noted at the beginning of January that fare rises were said to be above inflation to help investment that will provide a better service.   So I'm now looking eagerly forward to a better service from my local station.  ;)

i wouldn't hold your breath! You will still need to keep hitting DaFT over the head!

 Money is wasted by all the different TOC's have duplicated administration systems, pay systems etc.

 Perhaps money could be saved by having one central administration centre for the whole Railway
 Industry, surely with the advances in technology over the last 15 years this would be manageable.

 Then possibly having one operator on the whole railway network, say call it British Railways, who would
 manage all aspects of the industry, thereby making costly quango's (ORR) redundant.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.10814

The whole system is very difficult but have a look at these latest documents from ORR

Many thanks - I'll read into that.

I note a head bullet that the ORR have chosen:


Not sure what the "Wessex Operating Route" is exactly, but does that mean we've drawn the short straw down in the Somerset / Dorset / Bath / Bristol / Wiltshire area?

The table is divided along NR routes, rather than TOCs, so 'Wessex = mostly SWT', and Western = mostly FGW. 

Not sure how that leaves XC though...

Paul

I don't think the cost can ever truly be calculated with the way that monopoly money as a result of delays etc. is thrown around between TOCs and network rail. The pass the blame departments within TOCs are apparently pretty large as I guess it provides an extra income stream from others that caused their delays. Seems that's how Virgin made a killing during the WCML farce a few years ago

What does seem farcical is money being passed round and round the Industry itself.